From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: Squat question for the experts. Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 11:15:26 -0800 Alan D. Smith wrote: > > Hi, > > Have been working out for 2.5 years (almost 49), enjoy it a great > deal, and today did "real" squats for the first time. > > I say that because until now I've always used a Smith Machine > for them. But I moved and joined a gym that doesn't have one ( > although they swear they will in 2-3 months). > > On the Smith squats I never had any problems going deep enough, > but today I experienced first-hand just what a different story > it is with free weights! Just keeping my balance was a major > task. I'm VERY open to any and all suggestions and tips about > doing this right without injury. And, yes, I started with much > lighter weight than on the Smith machine. > > Thanks in advance for any help; would prefer e-mail but > whatever would be great. > > Alan Alan, welcome to manhood !!! (grin) That is part of the beauty of "real" squats. You must balance and support the weight yourself as well as finding your "groove". Don't fret, keep the weight light for a few weeks and allow your body to get used to the movement. Alternate stances and fid what "fits". I think that in no time you will be able to add weight - both to the bar and to your bod. Best of luck. PS. even if they get a smith machine, you probably won't want to use it anymore. -- Jason Burnell From: tmccull230@aol.com (TMccull230) Subject: Re: Squat question for the experts. Date: 7 Jan 1997 01:49:53 GMT >On the Smith squats I never had any problems going deep enough, >but today I experienced first-hand just what a different story >it is with free weights! Just keeping my balance was a major >task. Now you can the difference in the smith squat and the free squat. The free squaty uses many more muscles. Get a good solid base with the feet about shoulder's width or wider and the toes pointed outward at about 45 degrees. This will give you a solid base. Now force the hips downward and back, weight on the heels. In time ( and with lighter weight) you will get the form down. You will like the additional growth you get from doing the squats. You will get the most bang for your bucks doing free squats. Tom McCullough M.Ed., M.S.S. From: tms@southeast.net (Skinny Mike) Subject: Re: Squat question for the experts. Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 05:55:33 GMT On 6 Jan 1997 16:35:43 GMT, cf051@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan D. Smith) wrote: > >Hi, > >Have been working out for 2.5 years (almost 49), enjoy it a great >deal, and today did "real" squats for the first time. > >I say that because until now I've always used a Smith Machine >for them. But I moved and joined a gym that doesn't have one ( >although they swear they will in 2-3 months). > >On the Smith squats I never had any problems going deep enough, >but today I experienced first-hand just what a different story >it is with free weights! Just keeping my balance was a major >task. I'm VERY open to any and all suggestions and tips about >doing this right without injury. And, yes, I started with much >lighter weight than on the Smith machine. > >Thanks in advance for any help; would prefer e-mail but >whatever would be great. > >Alan Yes Alan, Welcome my friend. Welcome as Jason has said to the true world of not only manhood but to "free weight" lifting. You'll notice quite abit of difference in free squats verses the Smith machine. I've always been one to say that machines have there place for finishing work but to build you must use free weights. They are truly three dimensional as you are already learning with trying to keep your balance. But do not fret my freind you'll be amazed at what you'll gain over your entire body by adding free weight squats to your routine. The others in this thread have given you some excellent advice and I'd like to add some too if I may. Have a spotter watch as you squat not only to make sure you are going to parrallel or even a bit deeper but also to see if your hips are starting to move before your shoulders are as you come out of the squat. I've noticed alot of people seem to start moving their hips up before their shoulders and then the next day complain about soreness in the lower back. Learning early to drive with the quads and start the upward movement with the shoulders may help with this problem. Your going to get some soreness in the lower back but it will be the right kind of soreness if you know what I mean. What I do is at the bottom of my squat when I start up I'll start my drive with my quads of course but at the same time I'll try to "press" the bar off my shoulders. Not using my arms but with my shoulders. It's a bit hard to explain but you should get it once you try. Now though is the time to learn good form and be patient. The heavier weights will start comming faster than you think. You'll notice them in all of your lifts. Good Luck From: "Haruko Nakagawa" Subject: Re: Squats Date: 10 Jan 1997 15:57:17 GMT BLaffey wrote in article <19970109073600.CAA02367@ladder01.news.aol.com>... > SOme people say to do squats with 5 pound plates under each heel to better > isolate quads and thus minizme involvement fo the glutes. Personally I > want size but not a huge rear. What do people here think? Better to > isolate the quads? And does it really make a difference? Why would you want to isolate the quads?!? First off, glute, back, and ham involvement, which are minimized by the fact that in this style of squat you don't pitch forward as much, and subsequent development are very important in all facets of lifting. In bodybuilding, hams and low back are traits of champions. Everyones got huge quads, but look how Yates' Christmas tree separates him from the pack in a comparison. In powerlifting, I don't think you'll be able to squat anything decent without help from those Hams-Glutes-Erector Spinae muscles. Finally, most atheletic endevors require balanced development of the muscles surrounding the knee joint. First of all, hamstings are important in developing sprinting speed. Also, if one is developed disproportionatly to the other, then uneven forces are placed upon the knee, which can lead to numerous problems. Aki Nakagawa haruka@iastate.edu http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/4148/ From: tmccull230@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Squats Date: 12 Jan 1997 18:58:36 GMT In article <19970112013000.UAA05813@ladder01.news.aol.com>, bowler21@aol.com wrote: >Plates under the heel are for balancd only. Some lifters do feel the quads >alittle more than the hams when plates are used . The plates under the heels force the knees in an unbiomechanically sound position. You are not putting anfurther stress on the quads, but you are putting an unnatural stress on the patella region. This stress will eventually put you in your doctor's office. Why take a chance with your knees. If you want big quads, squat with heavier weight and make the best out of what you have. >YOU WON'T GET A BIG BUTT FROM PROPER SQUATS. If you are doing PROPER SQUATS, then there is no way you are not going to hit the glutes. Squats develop butts, but don't necessarily cause BIG butts. Gluteal development is also a product of genetic predisposition. If big butts run in your family then squatting will eventually cause you to have an over-developed butt. If a large butt does not run in your family, don't worry about it. Squat all you want. Tom McCullough M.Ed., M.S.S. From: tmccull230@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Closed Squats? Date: 26 Jan 1997 02:28:31 GMT In article <32E95B12.D5B@sk.sympatico.ca>, Henry wrote: >Yes a wider stance is more stable and it is easier to perform but the >leg was designed to bend at the knee. Anything wider than the width of >the hip joints is asking for trouble since there will be inward pressure >on the inside of the knee joint. This may not cause any immediate >problems but squating wider than this will cause knee problems in the >long run. How many of you powerlifters who have been lifting for say 15 >years don't have sore knees? What do you guys and gals recommend for >healthy knees? There is only inward pressure on the knees if you allow the knees to drift inward during the concentric phase of the lift. If the knee is kept pointing in the same directions as the middle toes, you will remain in a biomechanically sound position. I have been a competitive powerlifter for 17 years, going on 18... I have never had a knee problem and do not have sore knees. I know many powerlifters who have been lifting as long or longer who also do not have sore knees. Bad form causes this problem. Tom McCullough M.Ed., M.S.S. From: tmccull230@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Closed Squats? Date: 26 Jan 1997 02:28:34 GMT In article , tompainemaximus@mail.netquest.com wrote: >Squatting in the traditional manner, a wide powerlifting stance, will >invariably broaden the hips and butt. This is the opposite of what many >people go to the gym for. So the narrow stance, with back straight and >the hips tucked in has its advantages. I hate to break the news to you...but narrow stances also hit the glutes and hips. What muscles do you think are responsible for moving the squat? If you are going to the gym because you have a fat butt, worry about cutting calories more than cutting out the squats. Wide or narrow stance. Tom McCullough M.Ed., M.S.S. From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: Squats, what did I do wrong? was Re: another squat question Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:44:05 -0800 Jenny wrote: > > Hi, > > Last week I did what was perhaps my third or fourth squat workout > total. So far, I am trying mainly to get the form down, as squats seem > more tricky than a lot of things. Last week, I started to increase the weight > a bit and really work (note, they still weren't very heavy, only 65#, I think, > but more than I had done before), and I tired to go deeper than I have before. [snip] > > Jenny Jenny, muscle pain from squats is different than from leg presses or lunges, etc. The muscle pain you will get used to. The thing that would concern me is the "tendon" pain. I'd recommend having a competent individual monitor your technique. A common problem encountered by neophyte squatters is the tendency for the knees to drift inward (or outward) as the lifter tries to ascend. I believe it is usually caused by a strength imbalance. First thing; go to Dr. Squats page http://www.ipf.com/fredhome.htm/ and read his "things all squatters KNEED to know" article. Then have somebody else read it and check out your form. Better yet, have them VIDEO tape you squatting from warmups to heavy sets. This way YOU can see what the person is saying while watching yourself. It may make it easier to correct any mistakes. Good Luck and GET EM' CHALK. -- Jason Burnell - http://www.earthlink.net/~deepsquatter/ From: "Mike Trupiano" Subject: Re: Squats Date: 14 Feb 1997 06:09:05 GMT Impossible to cover it all, but here's some things to consider. 1. Leg extensions do next to nothing to help your squat. 2. Hips and Hams are the key to going parallel even though virtually every muscle is stressed to the max. 3. Legal powerlifting squat is below parallel. 4. Most gyms don't have one, but reverse hyperextentions are suppose to be very helpful. 5. The type of squat form used makes a big difference. Watch someone's hips just before parallel there's a shift in the alignment of the lower back. If the bar is too high and your stance is not optimum for your build, and even the way you grip the bar can keep you from pushing your hips and back into alignment so your legs can finish off the lift. If you have a strong enough back you might be able to pull off a modified Good Morning but your looking for big time back injuries if you don't make it. 6. If your not doing a power squat then you probably shouldn't go all the way to parallel anyhow. 7.Finally, look at Fred Hatfield's web page http://www.ipf.com/fredhome.htm, I hear he knows a little bit about this stuff. Andy Hake wrote in article <3303F56F.4A85@netlink.com.au>... > Hi Guys'n'Gals, > > My problem of the year are my squats. Yeah, I can squat perfectly, with > good form, but: I can't squat anywhere near parrallel. If I go further > than 15 degrees to horizontal, my knees give way and I fall down, > leaving me stranded at the mercy of my spotter. I tried to strengthen my > tear drop with leg extensions and also tried to squat to a bench. When I > use a bench, I normally end up sitting helplessly on the bench, unable > to get my arse back up. What can I do to get down to parrallel (and > eventually lower) and strengthen my legs to get back up after? > > Andy :-{ > > P.S.: When trying to go to parrallel, I use very low weights, i.e. 150 > lbs instead of 280, which I use for my "normal" squats. Even, when I go > down to 100 lbs, I can barely get up out of parrallel. > From: dchan@is.dal.ca (Desmond Chan) Subject: Re: Squats Date: 15 Feb 1997 20:11:32 GMT Andy Hake (andyhake@netlink.com.au) wrote: : P.S.: When trying to go to parrallel, I use very low weights, i.e. 150 : lbs instead of 280, which I use for my "normal" squats. Even, when I go : down to 100 lbs, I can barely get up out of parrallel. Sounds like not that you cannot go down to parallel but that you're not as strong as you think you can squat...I mean full squat (the one with thighs down to at least parallel to the floor). What your "normal" squats actually are partial squats, which are much, much easier than full squats. In full squats, there's a sticking point right after you rise from the parallel position that you have to overcome. But in your partial squats, you start after that sticking point. That's why they're easier. I guess you have to lower the weight way below your "normal" poundage and start to really squat again. Regards, D Chan From: Bill Roberts Subject: Re: Thoughts from the Gym Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 21:51:16 -0500 On 6 Feb 1997, Rifle River wrote: > Now, there were a number of things I disliked about this study (including > the number of subjects), but enough interesting findings to make it worth > mentioning. Over the 8 week period they find that half the gains in > poundage moved in the bench press and squat occurred within the first two > weeks. I think this tends to support the contention that lifters should > change out exercises frequently. I think Charles Poliquin suggests > changing exercises about every 3 weeks. Based on these numbers, I would > agree with a similar time frame. Wouldn't work for me, and I think (know, actually!) that for a lot of other people alleged gains from exercise switching are illusory. E.g., Joe Lifter does traditional parallel squats for 3 weeks. His poundages go up every week. The next 3 weeks, he does front squats. Again, poundages go up every week. Next, Olympic squats, ditto on the results. Wow! 9 weeks of continuous gains!!! Only problem is, when Joe returns to traditional squats, he may be lifting exactly the same as before. The problem is that during the three week period *ability to perform the exercise* improves quite a bit. Muscular strength will not necessarily increase. Whereas if one sticks with certain core exercises, gains on these will be real. Some variety is good, but I think variety can be taken too far, and often is. -- Bill From: drsquat@aol.com (Dr Squat) Subject: Re: SQUATs...Why no burn in the butt? Date: 21 Feb 1997 22:33:56 GMT Bucknbonk (bucknbonk@aol.com) wrote: : x-no-archive: yes : [snip] : front, back and hack squats to my deads and BO rows......but why oh why : when I squat don't I feel any burn in my butt, hams or calves? I use a : spotter and have excellent form, always go to parallel. (If I go deeper : my knees hurt.) I really like doing this ex, I just only feel it up : front in the quads, and I thought you guys told me this was butt buster, : which I what I wanted from this ex. Before you tell me to add more : weight, I need to repport I'm squatting 70# for 10 reps/failure right now : (okay, okay, giggle if you must, but I've only been doing squats for 2 1/2 : months AND I'm the only chick in the gym who's squatting!) and it's all I : can handle without sacrificing either my knees or my form. It's simple, really. Play pool? Then you know all about angles and such. There are four primary methods of squatting:1) powerlifter's technique where the hip joint is an acute angle and the knees are at close to a right angle (good for gluteals and hammies; 2) Olympic style where the acute angle is at the knees and the hipps are close to a right angle (good for quads); 3) athletic squats, where the hip and knee angles are the same, and both are mildly acute; and, 4) safety squats where both hips and knees are around right angles. Actually, all 4 techniques involve overlapping effect on all these muscle groups (gluteals,hamstrings and quads, among other stabilizers and synergists). I gotta tell ya, however, I don't recommend powerlifting style squats to ANYONE except POWERLIFTERS! Bad on the low back! And Olympic squats (or "high bar" squats) are bad for the knees. I'd just load the bar and do safety squats with lots of weight for 5-6 sets or more. Failing that, do athletic squats. There is NO BETTER exercise for gluteals. Pool playerrs bank shots, play off other balls, etc...you must do likewise in finding the particular position (angle) that gives you the best effect. We are all different, so these are only guidelines. Errrrrr...what's this "burn" thing? It comes from blood engorgement and local lactic acid buildup. That is NOT necessarily a signal of growth or localized training effect. Frederick C. Hatfield, Ph.D., FISSA ("Dr. Squat") http://www.ipf.com/fredhome.htm (Articles And Q&A Included!) From: "Jason W. Burnell" Subject: Re: SQUATs...Why no burn in the butt? Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:05:58 -0800 Bucknbonk wrote: > > F, just turned 40, lifting weights steadily for 1yr+, making 85% gains in > all my lifts in this timespan, added a trainer one of my days/wk, added > front, back and hack squats to my deads and BO rows......but why oh why > when I squat don't I feel any burn in my butt, hams or calves? I use a > spotter and have excellent form, always go to parallel. (If I go deeper > my knees hurt.) I really like doing this ex, I just only feel it up > front in the quads, and I thought you guys told me this was butt buster, > which I what I wanted from this ex. Before you tell me to add more > weight, I need to repport I'm squatting 70# for 10 reps/failure right now > (okay, okay, giggle if you must, but I've only been doing squats for 2 1/2 > months AND I'm the only chick in the gym who's squatting!) and it's all I > can handle without sacrificing either my knees or my form. > > Thanks to all who can advise! > > Patti Patty, What foot position do you use. I would try to vary the width of your stance. For me, the narrow stance puts more emphasis on my quads and the wider stance puts more emphasis on the glutes/hams. Also, If you are doing a high bar squat(bar high on traps) you might try to move the bar down and to the rear, as powerlifters to. You will be able to use more weight(once you get used to it, it may cause slightly more of a forward lean initially ) and if you concentrate on pushing your glutes to the rear as you begin your descent you should get a great butt workout. A liberal application of CHALK will help keep the bar from sliding down the back in the lower position. -- Jason Burnell - http://www.earthlink.net/~deepsquatter/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: Sore Wrists from Squatting Matt (chenevert@aol.com) wrote: > > I've been increasing the > weight pretty quickly lately and have found that my wrists are getting sore > from bending back (hyperextending) due to holding the bar securely. My response: I'd suggest perhaps looking into a device to use between the bar and your back. A product that I like very much (I am not being paid by them, I really think it's great) is called the Manta Ray. I feel absolutely no pressure on my vertebral discs or the bar squeezing into my traps, nor any pressure on my wrists to support the weight. Just trying to help. Sandeep De The Power Factory http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/4039/mainpage.htm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 From: "Eric M. Burkhardt" Subject: Re: Sore Wrists from Squatting Matt: You must be letting the bar "ride" way too low on your back if your wrists are bothering you. If squatting correctly you should almost be able to take your hands off the bar. This obviously requires that the bar be held pretty high. Many powerlifters carry the bar as low as the rules of their sport will allow but this is not the most productive way to perform the squat exercise unless you are a powerlifter. By the way, no one can squat (correctly that is) with their trunks vertical. Eric Burkhardt Strength and Conditioning Coach UC Irvine ------------------------------ From: HzleyesII@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 Subject: Re: Sore Wrists from Squatting >From: Chenevert@aol.com >>Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 >I have a question for all you Gym-rats that ease under the bar once or twice >a week in an effort to build big legs doing squats. I've been increasing the >weight pretty quickly lately and have found that my wrists are getting sore >from bending back (hyperextending) due to holding the bar securely. I have the same problem with my right wrist. I use a wrist wrap. It seems to work well. Schiek puts out a really nice wrist strap/wrap. You can call them at 1-800-772-4435. The strap/wrap sells for $19.95. It was well worth the price for me. They are comfortable and can handle the job, whether it be squatting or deadlifts. I think it just what you need!! Dave ---------- From: Curt Pedersen Subject: Re: Bar Placement During Squats Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 Utilizing a lower bar placement during squatting will cause the glutes and hamstrings to be more involved than the quadriceps during the squat. High bar or Olympic squats on the other hand activate the quads more than the low bar squat but still primarily involve the glutes and hamstrings during the lift. This is why powerlifters perform low bar squats in competition. The glutes and hamstrings are stronger than your quads which allows more weight to be lifted. The lower center of gravity with the low bar position also comes into play when squatting maximal weights.=20 Curt Pedersen The Peak Performance Page: http://www.peakperformance1.com ----------------- From: "Eric M. Burkhardt" Subject: Trunk Stabilization? It's good to see Paul Check is posting here now. Welcome aboard Paul! Paul's expertise and knowledge will truly benefit all of the "weights" subscribers. A question I've pondered for a long time has to do with the role of trunk stabilization during the squat exercise. I know that Mr. Check is an expert on this so I would be very interested in hearing his comments. First, I'd like to make a few assumptions about what I perceive to be the role of the "abs" (rectus abdominis, internal and external obliques and transverse abdominis). Anyone who can add to the list below, or correct me on anything, Please do! I'm on this list to learn. 1) The abs are highly active during movements which require spinal stability, which, if you think about it, is probably almost any movement you can imagine. 2) The abs act as a functional "brace" to "connect" the lower extremities to upper extremities so that forces can be transmitted from one to the other. 3) Strong isometric abdominal contractions (mostly obliques and transverse I believe) compress the abdomen to produce high intra-abdominal pressures which is important in reducing spinal forces. I believe this reduction in spinal forces is made possible by an actual upward and backward pushing force provided by the highly pressurized abdominal cavity. With this in mind, there have been a few question about abs and ab training that have always bugged me. Here they are... 1) If the squat exercise demands tremendous trunk stability, then wouldn't squatting by itself be one of the best ways to strengthen the abs? 2) Saturday I took a yoga class. During the class, the instructor had us do several "poses" which eventually led up to a set of 5 push ups. Whatever it was that we did prior to the push ups made the push ups extremely difficult. Perhaps the hardest part about them was maintaining a rigid torso. My abs were QUIVERING!! My question is this, if I've been doing a lot of traditional ab work (resisted ab curling, reverse curling) why was I so poorly prepared for those push ups? 3) There is a lot of talk about balanced strength between agonist and antagonist muscles. Is there any standard "ideal" ratio for spinal flexors to extensors? I can't imagine how a weightlifter or powerlifter could ever expect to keep spinal flexor strength anywhere close to spinal extensor strength. Any comments?? 4) Some Swiss ball and other exercises are supposed to teach abdominal awareness (firing the correct muscles at the correct time) during movements that demand trunk stabilization. Is this really necessary? When a person does a squat, is it really necessary to "think" about your abs while doing the exercise? When I do a heavy squat I don't need to think about using my quads. After doing several thousand reps I'm not really sure what I think about. I assume that if performing the technique properly that the abs are automatically doing their thing at the right time. Please comment... Eric Burkhardt Strength and Conditioning Coach UC Irvine ------------------------------ From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: I CAN'T SQUAT Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 01:40:48 GMT On Thu, 06 Mar 1997 15:07:47 -0500, cman wrote: >> I don't believe, that SQUATs don't work for you. You read McRobert's >> book. Then you should know, that it is not very easy to make some >> progress. It needs a lot of discipline and encouragement to use more >> weight or to do some more reps the next session. But trust me, after a >> while you will see the results. There's no substitute for SQUATS. I know >> it's hard to do squats for a tall guy, but it's not impossible or >> unproductive. >I don't buy the "squats don't work for me" argument either. You may not >naturally be able to squat much weight, but that doesn't mean they don't >work. Much of what has been said is probably right on the money. McRobert is one very big proponent in BRAWN. However, it is true that there are a VERY small majority of people out there who should not squat. McRobert is in this category. He wrote in a recent issue of Hardgainer how he has severe scoliosis of the spine. I'm a very big proponent of the squat. However, I feel too many people generalize from their own experiences and experiences of those in the magazines to everyone. For example, the dip is a tremendous chest, shoulder and tricep mvmt. For me, I end up with severe pain in my SC joint. Should I listen to all the gurus out there who say I should do this mvmt? I think not. The same can be said for a lot of mvmts. Some of these aren't biomechanically sound to begin with. I'll leave by saying if you have tried to squat with good form and the results are pain or loss of form after much trying, then try something else. Don't give up real easy, but don't spend many, potentially, fruitful years trying to do something you can't. There are viable alternatives. JMHO. ---- Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu http://www.louisville.edu/~cmclarz1 From: "James Krieger" Subject: Re: I CAN'T SQUAT Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 23:38:51 GMT Thomas J. Farish wrote in article ... > > After 18 months of using a very wide stance, which has been comfortable > for me, I just started squatting with a narrow stance for variety. I was > amazed that I had to lift my heels with my warmup weights, and could not > go to parallel with much more than half my normal work weight! I really > felt it in my quads the day I worked out (Sunday), but today I am not > sore at all. With my regular squats I am sore for three days. I will > be working on my flexibility this week, and will try again next Sunday > (I do squats once a week). > > Dr. S (or other experts), I am just trying for some variety here by > changing my stance; what difference might I expect in the muscles hit > between the narrow and wide stance? Is my back my weak link, or my hip > flexors? > The reason you can use so much more weight during a wide stance is because the back and hip flexors are much more heavily involved during this stance. This is why powerlifters use a wide stance because they need as much muscle groups assisting in the lift as possible. From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: NEED HELP WITH SQUATS..BADLY Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 03:24:35 GMT On Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:37:11 +0100, Stefan Roehrig wrote: >If there is only the popping sound and no pain, you should SQUAT! >There is no substitute for squats. Leg presses for instance, can't train >the balance and also don't train as many muscles at one time as squats >do. Can't say as I agree. There is no doubt that the squat is a great exercise, if not the best exercise. But, popping in the knee, if it is occurring with each descent, is not a good sign and should be not be overlooked. What may be going on is some wearing away of the cartilage. While the articular cartilage may not grow back, some rougher fibrocartilage will if allowed to. If you are having pain where there used to be popping, I'm thinking that you may have rubbed down to the bone. Not fun. Of course, leg extensions may be worse. One thing is to do higher rep squats and deadlifts in a range that avoids popping. Some stress to the joint will help with cartilage growth. None or too much may be of further detriment. Going balls to the wall is great, but you have to keep the future in mind. ---- Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu http://www.louisville.edu/~cmclarz1 From: tmccull230@aol.com Subject: Re: (no subject) Knee wrpas Date: 19 Mar 1997 12:36:42 GMT In article <332E2D21.2875@nbnet.nb.ca>, mark wrote: >Regarding wraps for knees , > > > Let me say - anybody using 396 lbs on the >squat is at risk of blowing a disk . Squatting with heavy poundages is >extremely injurious to the lumbar discs as shear and compressive forces >are overwhelming present . Even if injury is not present by way of pain - >the annular ligaments of the discs are repeatedly micro >traumatized by heavy squatting . Many power lifters and body builders >who insist on lifting heavy squats inavariably develop osteoarthritis of >the spine . avoid them . I usually stay away from making comments of this type but I'll do it anyway. ARE YOU A COMPLETE ABSOLUTE MORON? I am a masters powerlifter and have been lifting for many years at weights many times heavier than 396 lbs. Never had a problem. Where are you getting this crap? Osteoarthritis of the bone.....have you ever read the current literature on bone remodeling? Obviously not! This is about the dumbest excuse for not doing squats as I have heard. Load some weight on the bar and quit being a cry baby. Tom McCullough M.Ed., M.S.S. From: Jeff Johnson Subject: Re: Squats on a Smith machine?? Need advice Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 10:38:19 -0500 Manuel Pacheco Jr. wrote: > > I am really not a big fan of the Smith Machine Squat simply because it > puts way too much stress on the knee. > Granted, you are isolating the quadraceps which is the prime mover in > this exercise, but you in turn are eliminating tension on the hamstrings > which is what causes the unwanted stress on the knee. > > Try and see if you can get him to occasionally make you perform the > conventional squat.This will not only eliminate the added stress but will > also help you strengthen your stabilizing muscles and help prevent future > injury. > Goodluck! > Manuel... If anything, when used *properly*, the Smith Machine enables you to reduce the stress on the knees and bring the hamstrings and glutes more into play when squatting. I use a Smith Machine frequently with sprinters and football players to help them build up the hamstrings which are frequently underdeveloped with respect to the quads. If you begin the exercise with your feet directly under the bar, the knees move forward ahead of the feet as you squat. This movement is similar to a "sissy squat" which does emphasize the quads. It also places significant shear stress on the knee joint. However, if you begin the exercise with your feet substantially in front of you, when you squat your lower leg bones (tibia, fibula) are perpendicular, your upper torso is perpendicular and your knees are directly above your ankles. There is considerably less shear stress on the knees. As you lower your body during the movement, the body position closely resembles sitting in a chair. You cannot duplicate this position with a free weight squat. The Smith Machine squat does reduce the proprioceptive benefits gained using free weight. However, the primary goal of the trainee must be taken into account. The squat is without doubt the single best exercise there is. Unfortunately, it is seldom done properly. At the US Olympic Training Center, many experienced athletes are brought in for training and not allowed to use any barbells until they are able to first demonstrate proper form with a broomstick. It sometimes takes weeks to undo years of bad technique. Jeff Johnson, MS Performance Fitness & Nutrition Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 From: "Eric M. Burkhardt" Subject: Squat specific abdominal training Maybe we can move the squat discussion in a new direction. Everyone agrees on the important role strong abdominals play in stabilizing the spine and increasing intra-abdominal pressure to decrease spinal forces during squatting, but what is really the most effective and efficient way to train the abdominals (abs) for this purpose. One thing that bothers me is the range of motion in which most abdominal exercises are performed. Most abdominal exercises begin with the spine already in flexion, at a muscle length that is not specific to squatting. Most abdominal exercises either pull the pelvis toward the rib cage or vice versa, neither of which are desirable during squatting. While squatting, lumbar lordosis must be maintained to the lowest position, which means the pelvis must be allowed to rotate forward. I wonder how "transferable" the strength gains made from typical "ab" exercises really are to functional total body lifts. Seems to me that maybe one of the best ways to strengthen the abs for squatting and other full body lifts is simply by doing the lifts themselves. One would think that after years of training in the squat that the appropriate abdominal development would follow. Today I tried placing my hand on my abdomen while in the bottom of a good morning exercise with a light weight. My upper abs felt very hard, but I'm not so sure if my lower abs were contracting with as much force. What do you heavy squatter out there feel when you squat? Do you feel a definite abdominal contraction when you perform a heavy squat? Do you have to make a conscious effort to tighten your abs on every rep? If so, why don't you need to make a conscious effort to contract your quadriceps? It makes sense to me that in a highly skilled squatter, that the proper abdominal musculature would "turn on" without the lifter having to make a conscious effort. Any comments from any of you heavy squatters out there would be greatly appreciated. Eric Burkhardt Strength and Conditioning Coach UC Irvine From: Jari Mutikainen Subject: Re: Squats and knee problem Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:29:44 +0200 Hello, Desmond Chan wrote: > > nospam@embossed.chi.il.us wrote: > : When I turn my feet outward, so that they're pointing in the > : direction that my knee seems to want to slip, then I don't have > : as much of a problem. > You should always squat so that your knees move to the direction of your feet. If your feet point forward, then your knees should move forward too etc. The other 'trick' to avoid knee problems while squating is to avoid moving the knees too much during the squat. You achieve this by driving your butt backwards more during the descent instead. This is how I got rid of my knee problems while squating. The drawback with this technique is though, that it emphasizes the butt and lower back more while taking some of the stress off the quads. The advantage is though, that you can still stick with the 'king of all exercises' even if you had bad knees. Best Regards Jari Mutikainen From: Curt Pedersen Subject: Acceleration Training Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 In response To: > Also, what is a good way to practice exploding out of the "hole" in my > squats and deads? I seem to get stuck there. Train for acceleration(like Louie Simmons and other promote), buy using multiple low rep sets at 55-65% of your 1RM. Training can be divided into power and strength workouts. On the power days, multiple sets (10-12) of low reps 2-3 are performed. The weight used is 55-65% of your 1RM. The other workouts for your squat/deadlift and bench utilize strength training with heavy weights 80-95% of your 1RM using between 2-8 reps. This is a rough explanation of this type of training. Check out Louie Simmons articles in PL USA for more information or email me at pedersen@chesco.com if you would like further explanation of this type of training. From: arm@servtech.com (April R Miller) Subject: Re: [Q] SQUATS--one of the more amazing things has happened Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 20:46:58 -0600 In article <5hldi1$mc$1@woody.goldendome.com>, jm@goldendome.com (Jon Madison) wrote: > gotta question/observation: > > when i first started squatting (and up until about last week), > after every squat day, my knees would be ACHING > > at any rate, for the first time EVER after squatting, > since beginning, my knees feel NO PAIN at all. This is amazing; > this feels very good to bend my knees and experience no > sting whatsoever. (ha, maybe i just tore some nerves :). > I'm wondering if my lack of knee pain had to do with heavy > squatting last week, and the resulting gains in strength. > > any insights? > Since you lifted heavy did you perform fewer reps? I have problems with my knees - kneecap doesn't track correctly. Repeated full ROM irratates my knees no matter how light I lift, so I lift heavy with few reps and feel much better. From: dchan@is.dal.ca (Desmond Chan) Subject: Re: Squats & lunges Date: 12 Apr 1997 15:34:12 GMT Robert J. Fabsik Jr. (rjfabsik@nwu.edu) wrote: : In article , : Andy Fernandez wrote: : > If anyone out there has any good tips out on how to do squats and : [snip] : Master the 20-rep squat. : [snip] : Start out with a light weight and add five pounds every week. Just : focus on getting twenty reps. Eventually you'll reach a point where after : doing 20-reps in the squat will require a 5 to 10 minute rest. : [snip] My understanding is it's not just another 20 reps squats. That would be easy! It's the 20 reps breathing squats that is hard! You don't start with light weight; you start with a weight you can only do 10 with but now you squeeze 20 reps out of it. What makes it different >from other 20 reps squats is you're using a weight that you think you can only do 10 and no more. The way you do it is use a rest-pause style by taking a couple of deep breaths between reps with the weight all the time on your shoulders. That's the 20 reps breathing squats that I think "Supersquat" is talking about, not just using a light weight to do 20 reps squats. It's a HUGE difference! Regards, D Chan From: lylemcd@edge.edge.net (Lyle McDonald) Subject: Re: Squats w/o a spotter Date: 10 Apr 1997 05:23:55 GMT In article <334cfd84.2111191@news.thecia.net>, doug@thecia.net_SPAMGUARD_ (Doug) wrote: > Anyway, the basic question is whether I'll get better size development > going to failure on one of those evil Smith thingamabobs or by doing > some less demanding work with a barbel in a cage. Or maybe I just > shouldn't be squatting without a spotter period. Any thoughts from > the squat patrol? Smith machine's suck, they balance the weight for you. Get in the power rack and set the safety pins right below your parallel squat position. Then just take the damn set to failure (failure being defined as you lower to the bottom position, try to drive back up, get stuck, fight it for a few seconds and then slowly lower it to the safety pins). Only problem with this method is that you can only take one set to failure since it's such a bitch to get the bar back up to the pins. But, do this on your last set if you don't have a spotter. Take all sets beforehand to like 1 rep less than failure. Or do a cycle of 20 rep squats and finish the set at failure with the bar on the safety pins. Have fun. Lyle McDonald, CSCS From mstaples@poboxes.com Sun Apr 13 11:03:50 PDT 1997 Lyle McDonald wrote: > > In article <334cfd84.2111191@news.thecia.net>, doug@thecia.net_SPAMGUARD_ > (Doug) wrote: > > > Anyway, the basic question is whether I'll get better size development > > going to failure on one of those evil Smith thingamabobs or by doing > > some less demanding work with a barbel in a cage. Or maybe I just > > shouldn't be squatting without a spotter period. Any thoughts from > > the squat patrol? > > Smith machine's suck, they balance the weight for you. Get in the power > rack and set the safety pins right below your parallel squat position. > Then just take the damn set to failure (failure being defined as you lower > to the bottom position, try to drive back up, get stuck, fight it for a > few seconds and then slowly lower it to the safety pins). Only problem > with this method is that you can only take one set to failure since it's > such a bitch to get the bar back up to the pins. But, do this on your > last set if you don't have a spotter. Take all sets beforehand to like 1 > rep less than failure. Or do a cycle of 20 rep squats and finish the set > at failure with the bar on the safety pins. Have fun. > Lyle McDonald, CSCS > An old joke: > Two guys walk into a bar. > You'd think one of them would have seen it. I have had some success using this type of "self-spotting" mechanism, and I have increased my squat pounages by 35 pounds in the past month or so while following such a protocol. The only problem is that people think you don't know what the hell you're doing, and they think you're just some idiot who "bit off more than they could chew." Many times people think you're going to hurt yourself, and they run over to try to help you get the weight up. A lot of these people have never taken anything to failure, let alone squats! -- --------------------- Matt Staples E-Mail: mstaples@poboxes.com --------------------- From: cman Subject: Re: in need of squat routine Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 12:05:09 -0400 Mark81108 wrote: > > I am a 15 year old male who has been lifting weights for about a year now, > but all the time I was making a big mistake. I was only doing my upper > body. So now I have sculpted arms and pecs but these little skinny flabby > legs. So I want to start a lower body workout. Just like when I first > started lifting I am in need of knowledge from someone who has been here. > So if you could please give me some advice on squat routines and other > lower body exercises I would greatly appreciate it. > > Mark Bode > > Mark81108 You should have someone who knows what they are doing in the gym show you what's up, but here are some basic, most important rules: 1.) more than any other exercise perhaps, DO NOT BE A MORON AND PUT TOO MUCH WEIGHT ON THE BAR TO SACRIFICE GOING DEEP ENOUGH OR WITH GOOD FORM. KIDS YOUR AGE ARE NOTORIOUS FOR THIS. 2. Go Deep. your upper legs should be parallel to the floor in the bottom position. 3. never lose the arch in your back, always have your chest up and out. 4. Keep you head straight back or some like looking up. 5. feet should be placed a little wider than shoulder width. 6. feet pointed slightly outward. 7. don't go for any heavy wieght for low reps - not at your age or right away. It takes years to find your grove in squats. Do whatever weight you can do with proper form and going deep for 10 or more reps. Don't worry about a lot of leg extensions, etc. for a bit. Learn to squat and do it right. Do 3 sets of warm ups and 3 real sets and you will be on your way. IMHO From mstaples@poboxes.com Sun Apr 27 20:49:24 PDT 1997 Mark81108 wrote: > > I am a 15 year old male who has been lifting weights for about a year now, > but all the time I was making a big mistake. I was only doing my upper > body. As an absolute beginner to leg training, I would take it slowly at first, because leg training can be brutal! I am glad that you are finally going to build your lower body, though. The first thing I would do is some squats with a moderate weight on the bar that you know you can handle. It might not look like it, but the squat demands a great deal of skill to perform correctly. After you learn how to do it, hit your squats HARD! You will never have the opportunity to have gains in this exercise again that you should see if you give them the effort they merit now. For complete leg development, after you have been doing your squats for a while, you should add some stiff-legged deadlifts or leg curls to develop your hamstrings. Keep the focus on the squats, though. You don't need to worry about things like calf raises at this time; after you become more advanced, you will want to do some calf work too. Good luck! Matt -- --------------------- Matt Staples E-Mail: mstaples@poboxes.com --------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 03:42:16 -0400 From: Paul Chek DEEP SQUATS: The most common reasons people can't squat below parallel are: 1. Restricted motion at the ankle and hip joints 2. Poor intermuscular coordination, which is common among those who train predominantly with machines! 3. Relative Flexability Imbalance between the hips and lumbar spine: - The hip joint/musculature has much less flexability relative to the back, resulting in hyperflexion of the lumbar spine in the lower portion of the squat. This happens because the passive tension of the musculoligamentous structures around the hip are out of proportion with the passive elastic forces of the back. The net result is over use of the low back and back pain! Often results in a disk bulg over time. 4. WEAK! If you are weak in the lower portion of the movement, your brain will try to avoid the test. It is inherant to human beings to follow the pathl of least resistance. TIPS FOR PERFORMING THE DEEP SQUAT: 1. Make sure you have full range of motion in all associated joints. 2. DO NOT attempt free weight exercises after blasting the hell out of your body on machines. Always perform the most complex movements, and those with the largest number of muscles and joints involved first in your workout (unless you want to look like your having an epoleptic seizure under the bar like most of the cement heads I see training in the gym!) REMEMBER, your nervous system is recording your movements and creating complex motor engrams for future use. If you program the nervous system with junk, GUESS WHAT WILL COME OUT!! 3. Practice the Squat Stretch. To perform the squat stretch, load the bar with 50-60% 1RM and settle into the squat as deep as possible with perfect form. Hold that position for 20-30 seconds and slowly settle deeper and deeper into it as the connective tissues warm. Repeat 2-3 times befor beginning your squat workout. Some gentle side to side and figure 8's with the body while setteling at the bottom will not hurt. NOTE: To protect your low back from injury while deep squatting, stand in a good upright posture and have a partner run a strip of good athletic tape down both lumbar erector muscles, anchoring the tape to your sacrum. After you pull your pants up, start your squat. You will be reminded by the tape every time you lose your lumbar curve (very effective if your back is harry!) By using this training aid, you will be more consiously aware of when to tighten the back and abdominal muscles to stabilize the pelvis against the pull of tight hip extensors. In due time, you will develop adequat hip flexability to squat like an Olympic lifter. If you ignore the tape, you may get to be on my waiting list for a disk rehab exercise program! I hope you find these tips usefull, P.S., I will be giving seminars in Australia and New Zealand for the next three months, so if you E-mail me, I may take a while to get back to you. Paul Chek MSS, HHP, NMT Paul Chek Seminars Ph 1-800-552-8789 www.paulchekseminars.com Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 09:00:28 -0700 From: "Eric M. Burkhardt" Subject: (Weights-2) Re: (below) parallel squatting & lordosis **NBAF WEIGHTS-2** At 03:42 AM 4/28/97 -0400, Paul Chek wrote Re: >DEEP SQUATS: >3. Relative Flexability Imbalance between the hips and lumbar spine: > - The hip joint/musculature has much less flexability relative to >the back, resulting in hyperflexion of the lumbar spine in the lower >portion of the squat. This happens because the passive tension of the >musculoligamentous structures around the hip are out of proportion with >the passive elastic forces of the back. The net result is over use of the >low back and back pain! Often results in a disk bulg over time. >3. Practice the Squat Stretch. To perform the squat stretch, load the bar >with 50-60% 1RM and settle into the squat as deep as possible with perfect >form. Hold that position for 20-30 seconds and slowly settle deeper and >deeper into it as the connective tissues warm. Repeat 2-3 times befor >beginning your squat workout. Some gentle side to side and figure 8's with >the body while setteling at the bottom will not hurt. This is interesting. My questions are these: 1. Exactly what musculoligamentous structures around the hip limit hip range of motion (ROM) in flexion during a deep squat? 2. Are they (musculoligamentous structures) typically the same for most people? 3. Are there any other specific stretches that can be done in addition to the "Squat Stretch" mentioned above? 4. Just how much lumbar flexion (if any) can be allowed during squatting? Even the most flexible athletes that I work with display a little loss (goes from slight hyperextension to somewhere between neutral [what ever that means] and "flat backed") of the lordotic curve when approaching the bottom of the squat. Is this acceptable or do even these athletes need to improve their flexibility? Quite frankly, I don't know if they can get any more flexible. It just seems to me that our bodies should be allowed a little margin for error as a built in safety mechanism. Mel Siff and others have actually suggested that some training be done with technique that calls for "less than perfect" biomechanics in order to strengthen structures so as to develop a "safety margin" on both sides of "neutral spine". Upon examination of the structure of the lumbar vertebrae and discs it is easy to see how loading (compression) the spine in flexion will exert a large intra-discal pressures resulting in a tendency for the nucleus pulposa to migrate posteriorly also placing large stresses upon the posterior annulus fibrosis. However, it's hard for me to believe that after having watched (and performed myself) thousands upon thousands of "well below parallel" squats done by my weightlifting friends -all of whom probably have a little loss of lordosis in the bottom position- that some sort of adaptation doesn't take place that actually protects the discs from the high stresses mentioned above. Oh yeah, what about the many cleans (deep front squat) that are caught (mistakenly) out front a little. These lifts always result in a spine loaded in some degree of flexion but rarely cause injury?? Something to think about... Eric Burkhardt Strength and Conditioning Coach UC Irvine Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 15:40:35 -0700 From: "Steve T." Subject: Re: (Weights-2) breathing squats and back? > >Why don't you describe what "breating squats" are.... Breathing squats are a set of 20 reps using your 10RM. The idea is to take as many breaths as necessary in between reps until you finish the set. Very mentally and physically challenging. Never done 'em myself. I hit rep #10 with my 10 RM and that sucker gets racked!! -- Steve "Esteban" Townsley ~~ stownsley@apc.net http://www.apc.net/stownsley/healthzone.html Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 10:22:32 -0700 From: "Eric M. Burkhardt" Subject: Re: (Weights-2) Squats and intra-abdominal, intra-thoracic pressure? >I am an aging (48) weight lifter. I love squats and really like to knock >myself out with benches etc - when I am a quivering mass at the end it >sort of relieves tension for me. Well, I keep seeing guys talk about >intra-abdominal and intra-thoracic pressure as an aid to squatting and a >means to protect ones back. Can someone elaborate? How can I take >advantage of these thing and use them? Are they good for deadlifts and >SL deadlifts? It sounds like information I could really use. > > Jerry Freedman,Jr Hi Jerry: I'll try and explain this the best that I can. Maybe Paul Chek will write in later and give us his version.....Here goes: Your torso segment has two cavities. The thoracic cavity (air filled ball) which houses your heart and lungs, and the abdominal cavity (fluid filled ball) which houses your internal organs, or "guts". The two cavities are separated by your diaphragm muscle. The way I visualize it, increased pressure inside these two cavities does two things, 1) provides a second column of support for the load (barbell) in addition to the spinal column, and 2) the pressurized cavities push up and back against the spine during the act of lifting a load (e.g. squat or deadlift). The end result is a drastic reduction in the forces that are "put through" the spinal column, which is a GOOD THING! OK, now, how do you do this?? To increase intra-thoracic pressure, a momentary Valsalva maneuver (same thing you do on the toilet when your constipated) must be employed.(WARNING: this maneuver is contraindicated for those with cardiovascular problems.) Just prior do doing a squat, deadlift or any other free weight lift that requires a stable spine, take a somewhat deep breath of air and hold it by closing your glottis (air passage way). Continue to hold your breath (Valsalva) and exhale as soon as the most difficult part of the lift is over (e.g. after the sticking point in the squat). BREATHE NORMALLY BETWEEN REPS!!! Increasing intra-thoracic pressure is a relatively simple thing to do - we all know what to do when we are constipated. Increasing intra-abdominal pressure may be a little more difficult for some people to do. Apparently, many folks have great difficulty recruiting the specific abdominal musculature that functions to compress the abdominal cavity to increase intra-abdominal pressure. Why we loose this ability I'm not exactly sure but I think is has to do with our urge to bypass "finer" more "control" type musculature and substitute with bigger stronger muscles which results in a loss of function. The "control" muscles then get weaker and dysfunctional movement patterns are the result i.e. the strong get stronger, and the weak get weaker. Anyway, these control muscles, or lower abdominals (transverse abdominis, internal oblique, lower external oblique and lower rectus abdominis) can be trained using a set of "coordination exercises" which can be learned from Paul Chek's Scientific Abdominal Training video tape. "Chek" out his web site is at for more info. He is very knowledgable and his tapes great. In addition, the cura muscles which attach the diaphragm to the L3 and L4 vertebra are supposedly activated during periods of high intra-abdominal/thoracic pressure which theoretically lift up on these two vertebrae resulting in unloading of the L5/S1 disc. I'm not so sure this is significant as one spine surgeon I talked to doubted that the cura muscles were strong enough to do this...but then again, he's a doctor who makes money operating on people who's bodies probably haven't functioned correctly for a long time. Good luck! Eric Burkhardt Strength and Conditioning Coach UC Irvine From: thekid@indiana.net (Steve Kidwell) Subject: Re: Help on legs workout. Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 11:41:18 GMT On Sat, 10 May 1997 00:05:37 +0200, Davide Pierani wrote: > >I'm an italian natural bodybuilder (5'9" - 170 lbs) >I have a problem with my legs. >I'm satisfied of my upper thighs, but just over the knees i am very >small. >Every suggestion is appreciated. >Thanks in advance It could just be a genetic thing. I've seen guys that have a high insertion point for the vastus medialis. It makes the area above the knee look quite hollow. However, you could be suffering from the old "Drumstick Thighs" problem - really big at the top and tapering to the knee. It is a condition that results from too much powerlifting type wide stance squats. If this is the case, either move your stance a lot closer and continue squatting or drop back squats altogether for about 6 months and concentrate on front squats. I had a minimal case of "drumstick thighs" when I was about 21. I didn't squat for a year!! It freakin' killed me!!!! (I love squats) I just did fronts, leg press, leg extensions, and hacks. My sweep improved and upper inner thighs reduced and 'viola' -no more drumstick thighs! :-) Steve Kidwell, Natural Physique Systems http://www.indiana.net/~thekid/phys.htm From: Stefan Roehrig Subject: Re: Painfully squatting Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:55:50 +0200 Miller wrote: > > Everytime I squat, after finishing my set and racking the weight, I am > hit with the most excruciating headache I have ever experienced. This > lasts about two minutes and then completely dissapears. The pain is so > severe that all I can do is hold my head till it subsides. Anybody else > experienced anything like this or knows what might be causing this? Any > response would be greatly appreciated. > > Corey Are you using a belt? If so, this raises the blood pressure which can cause headache. Another problem could be the spot, where you place the bar. This spot should be the traps and not the neck. I hope this helps. -- Stefan 'Shut Up and SQUAT!' Roehrig - roehrigs@zedat.fu-berlin.de From roberta_@tucson.Princeton.EDU Wed May 28 06:35:17 PDT 1997 Adam Fahy (afahy@oitunix.oit.umass.edu) wrote: : Here's something I never understood - why do people do both squats and leg : presses? They're too similar, in my opinion; better to just do another set : of squats and skip the leg presses altogether, excepting if it's in some : sort of intensity exercise ala compound/super-sets (like: dumbell bench to : failure, then barbell bench, then smith machine bench). I don't think they're too similar to do both in a session. One good reason to follow squats w/ presses is when failure in squats is due to the low back giving out before the quads. Another lesser reason is to add variety to legs day. Spending the whole session in the squat rack might get you a little stale. Bob Anderson http://www.mae.princeton.edu/~cfdlead/ From adfit@aol.com Thu May 29 22:16:43 PDT 1997 In article , DAVID NIDENOFF writes: > As part of my leg routine Ive been including squats now for about 15 >years.About a month ago I was diagnosed with a degenerated disc in my >lower back. This is also causing Sciatica in my right leg. Can anyone tell >me if moderate squats(200lbs.) would aggravate this even more or is it >time to hang them up.My age is 40 if this means anything. Any help anyone >can give me would greatly appreciated. Im not really in any pain but I >dont want to make it worse. > Thanks,David Of course this isn't a medical opinion, but I think the squat is the last thing you should quit. The human body is the only thing that gets better the more you use it. I can think of several of our customers who are in their 80s and still squat. One in particular calls me occasionally for nutritional advice. I never hear from him in the winter because he's always gone skiing ! I think it's more likely your missing something in your diet. On top of regular vitamin/mineral supplementation, I'd recommend extra vit C (4-6 grams a day) extra calcium (at least double the RDA, or 2000 mg) and if money isn't a big problem 500 mg of glucosamine sulfate and/or 500-750 mg of shark cartilage three times a day has helped many people I've talked with. A cheaper alternative is simple gelatin (available at any super market in the Jello section) mixed in protein drinks or juice two or three times a day (1/2-1oz total). It usually takes a few weeks to notice a reduction in pain as this method is not a magic bullet. You may see good results in 90 days or as much as six months. And warming up the low back with any exercises you can tolerate... like stiff leg deadlifts (even if you have to start with no weight), or hyper extensions, before squats should also help. This warms up the low back and pumps it full of blood. Also flushes the synovial around the vertebrae and helps remove toxins. The fluid around our joints only has movement as its pump. Also try to use an erect posture on squats. This transmits the load more evenly through the disks (if you have trouble doing this part, e-mail me and I'll tell you how). The above recommendations often help other connective tissue problems like knees, elbows, etc. as well. JMHO (I don't sell supps) Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Advanced Fitness, Inc. 1-800-258-8516 adfit@aol.com http://www.adfit.com (Manta RayŽ) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From mike.knapik@iac.honeywell.com Thu May 29 22:17:59 PDT 1997 I started squatting on the Smith machine, because I was concerned about effects on my lower back, just as you were. (I had 2 herniated discs) As I got used to the movement, I gradually started on free squats, always careful to give my lower back at least 7 full days between direct wos. This means that if I did lots/heavy hyper-extensions (e.g., on roman chair) on Monday, I did not do squats until the following Monday. As I found myself getting stronger in my basic back/lower-back exercises, I increased squatting (weights and reps/sets) such that, it has become my primary exercise. After about a year, no more lower back problems! Most important: there are several forms of squatting - all with particular effects on certain parts of your body; find someone knowledgeable to SHOW you and guide you as to proper form. For example, in the standard, or typical bodybuilder's squat: you will need to keep your back "straight", keep the baron your traps, look ahead or up a little, go down to ~ parallel, keep your feet at ~ shoulder width and pointed outwards at ~ 30-45 degree angle, track your foot direction with your knees, don't let your knees travel out further than your tiptoes, and certain other form rules. Since there are so many forms of squatting, there may be some that don't cause or aggravate the nerve impingement/Sciatica you experience. Experiment with foot positions, depth, front squats, etc. Get a book on exercise/squatting and read it. I don't think your age is against you. Also, as part of your therapy, deep massage techniques (painful, but in a good way), and LOTS of stretching!! (a chiropractor can show you - have you gone to a chiro for your sciatica?) Visit Dr. Squat's page (Fred Hatfield). Good Luck. -------------------------- From: "Curt Pedersen" Subject: Re: Half Squats Date: 30 May 1997 11:24:46 GMT Nathan D. Littlefield wrote in article <338d8fee.154877091@news.cheney.net>... > Do half-squats actually help? When I don't have a spotter I've found > that half-squats are easier because I can keep my balance better than > doing reg. squats, but I was wondering if it does the same thing or I > am being counter-productive? > Thanks. > Half squats should not be used instead of full squats, but as a means to help overcome stciking points that occur in this part of the squat. If you are haviung trouble keeping your balance performing full squats, lower the weight and work on your technique. Also be sure to perform partial squats in a power rack with the pins set at the height your squatting to and be sure to use a spotter(s). Partials take a lot out of you so be sure to use them for a short period of time, cycling them with other assistance exercises. The Peak Performance Page: http://www.peakperformance1.com From: jfinn@pipeline.com (Jay Finn) Subject: Re: Painfully squatting Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 00:20:38 GMT Miller wrote: >Everytime I squat, after finishing my set and racking the weight, I am >hit with the most excruciating headache I have ever experienced. This >lasts about two minutes and then completely dissapears. The pain is so >severe that all I can do is hold my head till it subsides. Anybody else >experienced anything like this or knows what might be causing this? Any >response would be greatly appreciated. > Corey I squated heavy for about a year and never had a problem and then, at no particular weight increase, I would get just what you described. It would kill me. Sometimes they would even last a day or more, but usually they were brief. I read an article in M&F about "weight-lifters headache." The article claimed that certain of these types of headaches were in the migrane family and relief could be sought in similar fashions to alieveating migranes. I eliminated certain migrane triggers (like drinking coffee right before a work out, and I took a small asprin before I lifted). It worked like a charm and I haven't had a problem since. From: "William Greene" Subject: Re: Olympic Weights -- Why? Date: 10 Jun 1997 16:11:14 GMT > I have had 600lb on my back without a sissy pad. Your just not serious > if you have to use sissy pad to squat. > > DM Actually, I don't want to get in the middle of this "sissy-ness" argument, but I do think that pads on the squat bar are extremely dangerous. I've seen several cases where the bar rolls right down a person's back because they insisted on using a pad. I personally have had over 700 lb. on my back without a pad ... although I cannot claim that I squatted this to full depth ;-( . I think that it takes time and patience to break yourself into squatting without additional padding, but I do believe that it can be done and it is much safer. Keys factors are proper bar placement and the eventual buildup of upper back muscles (traps) to act as the cradle. Just my two cents. Now, back to the "sissy-ness" argument. Bil --------------------------------------- RE: Hurt Arm Squatting Yup...I had (have) this very problem. What happens is that you are pushing with your arms as you lift the weight up (at least this is what I do. Since your hands can't go anywhere, your elbows move up and back which strains the muscles around the elbow. To aviod the problem, I use a narrow grip on the bar, press my arms into my sides and keep my elbows down. I actually pull down on the bar a bit (to counteract the tendency to push instead). To strengthen the area I do reverse barbell curls.....but no amount of strengthening will make the problem go away without correcting your form (unless you get to the point where you can reverse curl what you can squat). Good luck Darcy Semeniuk NovAtel Inc. dsemeniuk@novatel.ca http://www.novatel.ca ---------------------------------- From: Curt Pedersen Subject: Front Squats Explained Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:08:35 -0400 In Response To: >> I do squats , but I was reading an article on relative >strength of quad to hamstring and I need some explanation. >It said the best method to compare relative strengths was to >compare front and back squat values as the body is in a more >natural position than in seated exercises. What are front >and back squats. I guess what I call a squat is probably a >front squat as it works quads most. A front squat is performed with the barbell placed over your collarbones. The barbell is held onto by crossing your arms across the top of the barbell. This exercise works the quads to a greater degree than back squats. Back squats are performed with the barbell on top of your traps. There are various types of back squats, most notably Olympic and Powerlifting style squats. Olympic squats are performed with the barbell on top of your traps around the area of C7. Powerlifting style squats are performed with the barbell lower than Olympic squats, on top of your rear deltoids. All squats work mainly the glutes and hamstrings. Front and Olympic squats stimulate the quads more than powelifting squats which is mainly a glute/hamstring exericise. Hope this helps Curt The Peak Performance Page http://www.peakperformance1.com From ROBO Wed Jun 18 06:30:29 PDT 1997 After sucking down a flaxseed-contaminated Designer Protein rjfabsik@nwu.edu (Robert J. Fabsik Jr.) spewed the following multicolored chunks: >For my next work out program, I'm debating if I should take my squats rock >bottom. I've always gone to parallel, and have good results. What are >the pros and cons to going deeper? Are there any web pages that discuss >this at length? > Squat as deep as you can comfortably go. Your heels should not come off the ground at all, and your knees should not hurt. When you go to parallel ina back squat, you actually take the movement past the 90 degree flexion angle you hear PT's talking about. If your knee tendons can take it, great. Tom Platz comes to mind as someone who had incredible flexibility and strong knees, obviously. The 2 main problems I see, as far as "danger" is concerned with depth, is that : 1) some will lean too far forward in this exercise, lowering the bar, but not their own bodies. Keep your chest forward during the exercise as much as possible. 2) If you go very deep, you may actually cause your lower back to round at the very bottom. this occurs as your hips rotate underneath your body at the very bottom of the exercise. This can cause some serious low back problems. Obviously, if you decide to squat rock bottom, you should start light with higher reps until you adjust to the exercise. As far as web pages go, there's an _okay_ one here: http://home.jps.net/cburnell/deepsquatter.htm check the sigs of a lot of the regulars around here. Many of them have web pages with links to other good pages. Ahhh sweet agony - the lure of heavy IRON. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we go to SQUAT!!!!! grow or die ROBO email to beare@mindspring.com, if you wish. For replies via email, just check the address and adjust accordingly. ---------------------------- >2. When attempting squats, I cannot maintain my balance at all. I guess >that's the reason the Smith machine was invented, but without a machine >what is the secret to maintaining one's balance while moving up and >down? One common thing I see in people who have this problem is that they attempt to keep their torso completely upright and squat by bending their knees. Feet should be completely flat throughout the exercise, but if you attempt to do the above, you'll find you come up on the balls of your feet - bad form. You should be attempting to drive your weight through your heels with your feet flat. When you squat this way, as you bend your knees you should also be bending at the hips - the best description I can give is that it should kinda seem like you're sticking your butt out behind you. - -- Steve Townsley ~~ stownsley@apc.net -------------------- From: (Rick Silverman) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 07:22:18 -0600 (MDT) Subject: (Weights-2) re: weights-2-digest V1 #51 Eric Burkhardt wrote >The Smith machine is a piece of crap. Stay off of it. Secret to maintaining >balance while squatting; flexibility and practice. Whoa, baby---I must take a stand here!! As someone who had extreme fear of squatting (following surgery for a herniated disc), I turned to the Smith Machine for comfort and support. I started with a mere 135 lbs three years ago and worked my way up to 500 lbs in the past six months. I don't do my squats that way every week. This past fall, after I had actually achieved that 500 lb mark, I was goofing around trying some regular squats with an empty bar. Lo and behold, within a matter of weeks (I only do legs once a week, by the way), I was squatting 315 lbs for 12 reps and over the next month worked my way up to 425 for 8 reps. These are not ass to the ground squats, by the way--just to parallel. Needless to say, what I found was that all that training on the Smith Machine provided me with the strength to carry over to regular squats. Variations of squatting can be carried out using the Smith Machine as well, and with some added safety features. No question that squatting is the way to get better at squatting--but you gotta start somewhere, and for some people this piece of equipment can be a valuable bridge to free weight squatting. Hardly what I'd call a piece of crap! Richard T. Silverman, M.D. Division of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery University of Massachusetts Medical Center richard.silverman@ummed.edu ------------------------------- From: James Humphreys Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 12:22:07 -0600 (MDT) Subject: (Weights-2) Smith squats... >The Smith machine is a piece of crap. Stay off of it. Secret to >maintaining balance while squatting; flexibility and practice. I don't agree... completely. I agree that one of the keys to maintaining balance in regular squats is practice... but don't write off the Smith machine. I like using the Smith machine for squats following regular squats; for me, I think whatever stabilizer muscles are involved give out on me before my quads do... so I do as much as I can doing "free" squats, then move over to the Smith machine and continue until I can't walk. :) For whoever was reluctant at doing squats because of balance... I was the same way. Start with just squatting with the bar, and gradually add the weight. In the meantime, while you're getting used to balance and practicing "free" squats, I'd say go ahead and use the Smith machine for squats. Dr. James M. Humphreys, Ph.D. E-mail: drhumpy@idirect.com Homepage: http://webhome.idirect.com/~drhumpy How to Add Power at the Bottom of a Squat--Without a Squat Suit by Fred Hatfield 3)Since the squat suit gives the lifter the most aid at the bottom what would be the best way to make up for what is lost w/o a suit. Low work in the cage ?? Low box work?? It would stand to reason - well, at least mine - that if you could find a way to work the bottom portion effectively you should be able to lift whatever you previously could with a suit without one. Dr Squat ??? >> (There is no "one" answer to getting good in the squat sans supportive clothing. Obviously, a big belly (like I had as a heavyweight) helps tremendously. But when I lifted in the 220s and lower, I had a flat gut, so had to rely on limit strength. I also suggest you begin looking into employing a stretch reflex to get out of the hole...it worked great for me. Sure, it's potentially "dangerous" because of the ballistic element, but if you build a solid foundation BEFORE trying to go heavy, there should be no problems. I am NOT in favor of box squats under ANY circumstances! Sorry Louie.) Fred Hatfield Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:59:46 -0400 From: "Frederick C. Hatfield, Ph.D., FISSA" Subject: Re: STRENGTH Digest - 8 Jul 1997 to 9 Jul 1997 ------------------------------------------- In a message dated 97-07-10 08:41:09 EDT, you write: << > I am NOT in favor of box squats under ANY circumstances! Is the sole reason because of the possible HUGE compression on the spine if/when someone hits the box too hard? If so, what about setting the safety pins in a power rack at parallel and starting from the bottom, thus eliminating this compression? Bria >> Yes. Also, the theory is totally suspect in my opinion. Fred From bhrtzbrg@dreamscape.com Sat Jul 12 08:06:53 PDT 1997 In article <33b024e0.8669827@snews2.zippo.com>, mlane@suffolk.lib.ny.us (Mike Lane) wrote: >>> >>>The squat rack in the gym were I work out is of the "cage" type: 4 >>>vertical posts arranged in a rectangle, and two horizonal bars running >>>at about 20 inches from the ground, from the front posts to the back >>>ones, so that, upon failure, the lifter can rest the barbell on them >>>and slide out from underneath it. To my surprise, I rarely see people >>>lifting within the cage (instead they use the two front posts as an >>>"old-fashioned" squat rack), and I've **never** actually seen anyone >>>rely on the cage's horizontal stop bars to perform squats to failure >>>without a spot. I have assumed that this is because it is unsafe >>>somehow, though for the life of me, I can't see why it would be so, as >>>long as the lifter has stretched properly beforehand. It sure would >>>be nice to safely do squats to failure without needing spots. Can >>>anyone comment on the advisability of relying on the horizontal stops >>>to do this? >>> > >I'll be damned if I can figure out why people don't use the cage. It >is the same deal where I lift...people have access to the enclosed >rack, yet lift outside it. Maybe this is a macho thing, like "I don't >need no steenking backups". Also there is the possibility that the >sheer terror of failing with all that weight and no where to go is >like a motivational tool. > >Who knows... > >MikeL > My first piece of home equipment was a power rack. I've slammed into the spotting bars squatting, shrugs, partial deadlifts, probably every excercise you can do in a power rack. I've done partial squats and used the spotter for the bounce to get the weight started. THe manufacturer of my power rack said it was rated for 2000 lbs. Sounded good to me and it's held up for everthing I've done. From syntrasys@earthlink.net Sat Jul 12 08:35:11 PDT 1997 Richard Boström wrote in article <33BB50ED.7981@um.erisoft.se>... > > > Bollocks ! > > > > > > I had a 2nd degree medial colateral tear. I squat deep and heavy and I > > > have been for years. > > > > > > When I'm done back squatting I move on the front squatting EVEN deeper. > > > No knee trouble. > > EVEN deeper... Going through the Floor then?!... That's Squatting!!! > Anyway, I agree in that front squatting is a way of going deeeep without > harm your knees and back. Because the weight is much lesser and the > back is kept more straight!!! > > Keep on doin' HEAVY SQUATTING everybody!! > > /Richard > I don't remember the exact studies, maybe some armchair scientist type can blurt it out, but there are no greater incidences of knee trauma among those who squat full ass to the floor and those who squat slightly above parallel. I do agree however, that squatting to parallel is the most stressfull position of them. The way I see it, if you can't or don't wantt to squat ass to the floor then fine, but don't go around telling everyone it's because it's dangerous just so you feel better. I think there are merits in every style of squatting, the moral of the story is that full squatting is as safe as traditional style squatting, and is even more safe than squatting to parallel. Either go below, or just above. Yours in strength, Jon Agiato 1st class NFPT U.S. Olympic Weightlifting Federation Synergistic Training Systems From drsquat@aol.com Sat Jul 12 08:38:48 PDT 1997 Man, I haven't heard this term in years! Used to do 'em at the YMCA back in the 50's (no power rack, so two partners handed you the weight). Here are som other variants of squatting...anyone care to add to it? Always interesting, the variations squats lend themselves to: ˇ Powerlifting Squats (wide, intermediate or narrow stance) ˇ Olympic Squats (also called "High Bar Squats" or "Bodybuilding Squats") ˇ Safety Squats ˇ Twisting Squats ˇ Lunge Squats . One legged squats ˇ Side Lunge Squats ˇ Partial Squats ˇ Box Squats ˇ Jefferson Squats ˇ Hack Squats (with barbell or machine) ˇ Leg Presses (angle of weight ascent ranging from 0 degrees to 90 degrees) ˇ Overhead Squats (also called snatch grip squats) ˇ Magic Circle Squats (also called Raider squats) ˇ Sissy Squats ˇ Front Squats (hands crossed) ˇ Front Squats ((Olympic Style grip) ˇ Platform Squats (Simmons?) ˇ Zane Squats ˇ Platz Squats (Olympic squats done with a bent bar) ˇ Bear Squats ˇ Front Harness Squats (like Zercher squats, but with a front harness) ˇ True Squats ˇ Zercher Squats (bar held in the crook of your elbows) Frederick C. Hatfield, Ph.D. ("Dr. Squat") http://www.ipf.com/fredhome.htm (Q&A, Info, Free Booklets) From PAGen@massey.ac.nz Sat Jul 12 08:40:11 PDT 1997 William Greene wrote: > > Btkidd wrote in article > <19970702013500.VAA08858@ladder01.news.aol.com>... > > These are squats done with the bar set about midway between your nips and > > your belly button, I recommend wrapping a towel around the mid portion of > > the bar. Walk up to the bar and place it in the crux of your elbows, I > > cross my fists together but you can clasp them or hold however > comfortable > > to you. > > Lift the bar of the rack and step back, stay tight at all times. > > Take a semi-wide stance, I prefer one similar to my sumo deadlift stance. > > Squat down till your elbows go below your knees and rise. > > This exercise really stresses the inside of your thighs as well as your > > hips. > > It's difficult to use poor form on these which is a good thing. > > These should help your deads as well as giving your back a rest from back > > squats, I like 'em, my wife loves 'em. Good Luck, I hope i helped if not > > i'm sure someone else can add to. See ya > > > > Thank you. > It's good to learn something new. I love all the odd-named lifts. > BTW, anyone know who Zercher is/was? Amazing. A new exercise! In nearly 20 years of training I have never seen these. And I thought it was another name for Jefferson squats. From anthclark@aol.com Thu Jul 24 06:26:18 PDT 1997 >i have been having a problem with my squat strength. my ass & hams are strong from deadlifting- i max about 475 in the deadlift, but my squat is only about 365. no matter what i do, squat still sucks. i know the muscles around my knees are weak and small, which is probably my main problem. can someone give me a bit of advice? thanks Joe Russo joerusso@bellatlantic.net > Try 45 degree legpress. Clearly its your legs not your lower back that is the problem. Legpress strengthened my legs so effectively that I ended up having the opposite problem as my lower back soon became the weakpoint. From beare@mindspring.com.spam Thu Jul 24 06:28:43 PDT 1997 stuartjl@aol.com (StuartJL) said: >In article <33D0E0C8.73AD@bellatlantic.net>, Joe Russo > writes: > >>i have been having a problem with my squat strength. >> >>my ass & hams are strong from deadlifting- i max about 475 in the >>deadlift, but my squat is only about 365. no matter what i do, squat >>still sucks. i know the muscles around my knees are weak and small, >>which is probably my main problem. >> >> > >Actually, your strength seems proportionate to me. Not that my lifts are >there yet, but an handy way to remember the proportions is the set of >target weights 300/400/500 for bench, squat, and deadlift (600/800/100 for >assault crew types, so save your responses for what comes in the next >paragraph). You'd be smack on the money if your squat were 380 pounds, >and I think 365 is close enough to that given that no one is exactly >"average." > >On the other hand, working on the quad muscles nearest the knees is never >a bad thing. okay, excuse my ignorance, but which quad muscles are _away_ from the knees? >You might try following squats with seated leg extensions or >lunges--maybe other people in the newsgroup at your level will jump in and >say whether they still find those exercises useful. They both are lame. If you have weak quads, try using a closer stance when you squat. Leg presses are okay, but if you want to get better at squatting, then squat. 'sides, the closer stance stresses the glutes a bit less and the quads (both the ones NEAR the knee, and far away!!) a bit more. Again, we're talking about small amounts. 'sides, if you do sumo deadlifts, and you have long arms, it would make sense that you will be able to do much more in the deadlift. Also, if you are tall, or an ectomorph, you will, almost always, be able to pull more than you squat. and on the 7th day, the Lord Squatted and had a tuna shake. RBeare for replies via email, please remove the spam from my address From anthclark@aol.com Thu Jul 31 22:26:42 PDT 1997 Not all heavy squaters have near vertical backs when squatting. The problem is you read bodybuilding magazines not powerlifting ones. Notice that the people that do manage to squat with such a straight back often have their heels on a plate and always have their knees sticking out quite a bit. That may reduce the stress on their back but it should screw up their knees. Fortunately for them their knees are nearly indestructable. Powerlifters in general don't use such an upright stance. I see many bending over a lot. For example, Ed Coan who is the number one powerlifter bends over at least halfway to his knees when he squats. Dr. Fred Hatfield who is in the select 1000 group bends over a lot and never had any real problems with injuries. Bodybuilders use the crazy form you describe but it should be at the cost of their knees. The anti-inflammatory effects of steriods probably mask the damage they are doing to them. <> From btkidd@aol.com Thu Jul 31 22:28:47 PDT 1997 >Subject: How to squat properly???? >From: jss@gamewood.net (John) >Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 22:59:09 GMT >Message-ID: <33dbd1dd.18366624@news.gamewood.net> > >I've recently started lifting (about 2 months) and the more I hear, >the more people say that squats is the only way to go for legs. When >I do them though, it kills my neck and sends pains up my lower back. >I'm only 17 so it's not like I should be having any back problems. Is >this normal or am I just doing the squats the wrong way? Let me know >the correct form to use please. Thanks in advance. > >send e-mails to jss@gamewood.net > > > > > > > I might rethink my positioning of the bar, it may be you are carrying it too high. Lower the bar on the rack, and try to find a comfortable position on your middle traps and rear delts. Good Luck From: beare@mindspring.com.spam (RBeare) Subject: Re: squat strength Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 01:55:38 GMT "Bil & Tag" said: > >RBeare wrote: > >> why is it that people insist on using a close stance when they squat, >especially >> the tall ones? Get your feet out about a foot on either side, and you >won't >> have those problems, bub. > >I think that its important to find the stance in which you are strongest >and most secure. For me that is definitely not very wide, just slightly >wider than shoulder width. It all depends upon the relative lengths of the >upper legs, the lower legs, and the torso. > _EXACTLY_!! It just seems that so many tall people I've come across have this thing with squatting close stanced. I've given the simple bit of advice above to I don't know how many tall people in the squat rack, along with the complementary (d'ya deadlift?) and it almost never fails. and on the 7th day, the Lord Squatted and had a tuna shake. RBeare Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:43:10 -0400 From: "Frederick C. Hatfield, Ph.D., FISSA" Subject: Re: 3x a week squats ------------------------------------------- In a message dated 97-08-04 03:05:58 EDT, Jason writes: << Fred, if you're out there give us some info on this 3x per week squat thing. If I tried to squat 3x a week I'd die unless it was some heavy, med, light thing. 2x is about all I could take. >> I'm ALWAYS "out there," Jason! Squatting three times a week is something I experimented with during the off-season. Safety squats 5X5 one day (probably around 70 percent max with compensatory acceleration but no ballistic element), then one-legged squats (call 'em "side lunges" if you will) on the next day, going 5X5 with roughly 315 on the bar, and finally specialty exercises for the legs such as the rockpile drill, twisting lunge walking with heavy dumbbells, and perhaps some twisting squats. The point is that too many lifters have no CLUE about laying a foundation in all of the smaller muscles involved in making a big squat happen. It won't happen unless you have a solid -- complete-- foundation BEFOREHAND! Of course, as the off-season gives way to the 12 weeks pre-season cycle, you go to twice weekly (but continue doing some of the assistance stuff), and then once weekly during the last 4 weeks or so, doing ONLY competition squats. This, for ME! Y'all will CLEARLY have different recuperative abilities than mine (which were, I assure you, considerable!). Fred Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 11:11:03 -0600 From: Darcy Semeniuk Subject: Re: contest prep, volume vs H*I*T* and other rambling > QUESTION: How do y'all handle warming up for squatting? > Some kind of cardio (bike, stepper, etc) or just start light weights > and do small #s of reps as you pyramid up to the weight you're > gonna workout with? I use the following warm-up before a contest (this is a tip provided by Barry M.): 8 reps @ 20% of opener, 5 reps @ 40%, 3 reps @ 60%, 1 rep @ 80%. If your opener is over 500 lbs, you might want to add an extra rep @ 90%. I treat my opener as my last warm-up (I open with something I can handle for 3 reps minimum) and make sure I get 3 white lights. It doesn't matter what the opener is, as long as you get it in. > Ended up she nailed 210. Went plenty deep enough. She does need to work on low > back strength, as she does a slight forward lean (i.e. her butt comes up first a bit then > her erectors kick in and straighten her up). It looks pretty smooth, but you can see it. > Is that acceptable in comp? First, yes it is acceptable. Secondly, it might not be her lower back strength as much as ab strength. When I started hitting heavy (for me) weights, I would have the exact problem (hips rise up first). I tried all sorts of tricks to fix the problem, and what finally did the trick was to flex my abs as hard as possible as soon as the weight hits bottom. If I forget to keep my abs super tight, I notice that I tip forward. after a squat workout, my abs are totally fried, and I really feel them the next morning. Darcy Semeniuk NovAtel Inc. dsemeniuk@novatel.ca Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 10:12:18 -0600 From: Garry Holmen Subject: Steve's Ramblings >I was training with my friend Tracy (she's the one doing the PL contest). >She wanted me to watch he squat to make sure she's getting it right. I wish >I could train with her more often,as she's tries really hard and is doing >so well, but would do so much better with a consistent partner. Despite no >partner, she's doing VERY well. HEr bench has improved markedly. She >attempted 125 with no success, tho was close. After a break and some >encouragement. She wanted to do 120 for a triple, concentrating on contest >commands. I pulled a sneaky and, since her gym has 1.25lb weights, added one >on each side to bring her total to 122.5lbs. Just a comment Steve... from the above and your discussion about Traci's squat attempt it looks like she's trying a lot of 1RM max work. That is probably not the most optimal way of training. It has it's uses... if you're curious what your 1RM is after a cycle for instance. But if she's heading into a meet she should have a good idea what her meet goals are. That's how you decide what to do in that cycle down the stretch. >QUESTION: How do y'all handle warming up for squatting? Some kind of cardio >(bike, stepper, etc)or just start light weights and do small #s of reps as >you pyramid up to the weight you're gonna workout with? Start off with something light and ease up to say 75% of your work weight. Keep in mind aspects of your form and what you need to concentrate on during the lift. >Ended up she nailed 210. Went plenty deep enough. She does need to work on >low back strength, as she does a slight forward lean (i.e. her butt comes up >first a bit then her erectors kick in and straighten her up. Could be lower back strength but honestly it sounds like weak abs (tough to call without being there). At the bottom of the squat you should statically contract the abs to keep yourself in an upright position and squeeze the legs from there. With her hips travelling up first it sounds like her abs have 'caved in' and are not providing the support she needs in the lift. >Man, I've been a freakin' pussy! I talked to him in regards to volume and >how it builds you up to handle the heavy loads & hi intensity later. He's no >HIT advocate. I agree with him. My own experience is that when I was >squatting a lot I was stronger than I am now with a lowered volume. He said >he's changed to squatting 3x/week and has noticed continual, quality gains. You know my stance on this from the Femuscle list... you don't want to over train but under training is just as detrimental to improvement. Since I've moved to Calgary and started working out again with Darcy these past 5 months our lifts have been increasing to new personal bests at almost every week. And this is with increased volume workouts. I can remember Darcy and I discussing bench routines and his initial comment was that it was too much work for his shoulders and delts. He did stick with it though and he's on target for bettering his previous 1RM by 20 lbs or so... and that's after losing almost a year due to a severe rotator cuff injury. HIT, high volume.. which one will work? Who knows? Find the routine that works best for you. Add some change and experimentation on your workouts and go from there. Incorporate the ideas that work the best for you into your workouts and you'll see better and better results. Heck... if your lifts and body can improve why can't your exercise routine? Garry From pcbell@TAKEMEOUTworldnet.att.net Wed Sep 10 12:41:25 PDT 1997 Hi all, It looks like moronicity (or is it moronicism?) runs in cycles at my gym. The biceps curls morons seem to have scurried away. Now the squat morons are here. These are the guys who "squat" by sticking out their ass way out and bending forward at the waist. More than a 5% bending of the knees is strictly optional. After watching these guys, I no longer wonder why squats have the reputation of giving you a big ass and a sore lower back. With moronic form, the ass and lower back are all that get worked out! My theory was confirmed the other day by one of the most muscular guys at my gym. I had noticed this guy before, because he has big legs, but a huge, muscular ass. An *ENORMOUS*, muscular ass. I don't normally notice guy's asses, but this one is impossible to miss. Sure enough, I see him doing squats the other day with 405. He actually managed to go down about 40% of the way, which is better than the morons, but he still had his ass way out the whole time. Big ass weight, big ass form ==> big ass. I started doing squats about three months ago based on advice from this newsgroup, and because I got tired of loading all the weights on and off the leg press machine. I've gone rock bottom since day one. Knees twinged for a couple of weeks but are fine now. Quads are blasted every time and are looking bigger already. Glutes haven't been blasted at all. Lower back is fine. And I'm 6' 2" with a long torso. Anyway, I've also seen two signs of hope recently. The first was a ripped, muscular guy, about 6' 7" and 235, doing ultra-strict biceps curls with 25-pound dumbbells. Nothing moved but his forearms -- it was like a bar was running through his body, locking his elbows to his sides. The second was a small, wiry guy, obvious beginner, doing rock-bottom squats with just the bar. Optimistically yours, - Peter Bell From jburnell@jps.net Wed Sep 10 12:43:14 PDT 1997 In article <01bcbc77$124e9040$c03832cc@scott>, "Krista Scott" wrote: > > > Steve wrote in article > <341444AF.58ED@adder.demon.co.uk>... > > So what is the correct form for squats? I'm not sure if I stick my ass > > out or not. Somebody said that knees should be directly above ankles. > > If I did this I'd fall over! I've got long legs (mainly in the femur > > (thigh bone)) If I bend right over my shoulders are a few inches back > > from my knees. Thus if the weight is on my shoulders and my shoulders > > are behind my knees and my knees are directly over my ankles I'm gonna > > fall over. > > > > > > Steve > > > > Yeah, hanging that BOB (Big Old Butt) out is the only way I can stop my > knees from coming out over my toes. I'm a little stymied as to what the > original poster considers good squat form. Perhaps he will tell us? > > Krista It depends on what you are after. First, I must respond to the BIG BUTT thing. Chicks dig it. ( I know, generalizations are wrong but Since I've developed the SQUAT BUTT I've had women stop me during training to 'comment' on it....and the wife loves it. As they say HELL YEAH, BUTT SHAKE BABY!!!!! But I digress (yeah thats a shock). If you wish to hit the hams/glutes and adductors hard you can take a wider stance. Pushing the glutes rearward and trying to stay on your heels, as opposed to the balls of your feet will help to thrown a lot of the stress on the aforementioned areas. This is why most PLers squat with a fairly wide stance. This position also lessens the stress on the knees. The problem with squatting this way all the time is that over time the quads get less work. This can be prevented/remedied by doing a few sets of medium stance squats. In face, I believe that Dr.Squat recommends that PLers spend most of their off season time doing high bar close stance squats. Regarding the bent over position, this could be dure to a number of things - poor bar placement, weakness of the lower back , etc. In any event if powerlifting or strenthening/building the glutes or hams is the goal you must take them deep. If, on the other hand you want to hit your quads high bar medium stance squats are better. Harder on the knees if you go 'ass to calf" but better. Actually, if your goal is body building I see no need to go ass to calf - just go to the point where your legs go. BBers are after growth not max weights, per se. Hell, if your legs sprout with 135 lb half squats then just do that. For the rest of us it will be nessessary to go a bit lower, at least to parallel. Olympic lifters are famous for their rock bottom squatting with super erect torsos but again thier goal is different than that of the bodybuilder. Try to maintain a position where your knees don't travel out way past your toes and you are maintaining a fairly upright position. The problem I see with most people is that they pile on too much weight, go down part way and then in order to 'hit depth' they do a good morning and then just bend forward. Usually, they haven't developed the flexibility and or strength in the hip region to get deep enough so they lean to compensate. No matter how you squat (wide or narrow) you will have to develop a bit of flexibility and concentrate on keeping your torso upright throughout the movement. A trick to doing this is to pick a spot on the wall opposite you or the ceiling and focus on it while you squat. Also,don't sqaut while looking at a mirror(ESPECIALLY important if you are a PLer- there are no mirrors on the platform). You will spend your time looking down and rounding your back. Have your partner check your form. Before you start you descent, flex and tighten your upper back muscles, take a breath and push your abs out against you belt. Both of these will help stabilize you in an upright position. If you don't wear a belt, then get used to holding your abs very tightly on the descent or you will be force to lean forward. In my opinion, the glute/ham/lowback connection and the abs should be worked EXTRA HARD if you are to be a beltless squatter. Well, sorry if I rambled on too long but I think I got the point across. From pcbell@TAKEMEOUTworldnet.att.net Wed Sep 10 12:44:01 PDT 1997 In article <01bcbc77$124e9040$c03832cc@scott>, "Krista Scott" wrote: < Yeah, hanging that BOB (Big Old Butt) out is the only way I can stop my < knees from coming out over my toes. I'm a little stymied as to what the < original poster considers good squat form. Perhaps he will tell us? < < Krista Krista, My pleasure ... The short answer: SQAUT DEEP, BABY!! Your ass can't be sticking out if it is only two inches off the floor! The long answer: Since yesterday was leg day, I decided to do some experiments. I tried some half squats with just the bar. Son of a bitch -- my ass was sticking out just like everyone else's! So then I tried half squats keeping my ass tucked in. Bad idea -- put a big hurt on my knees. It turned out that my knees were out further than my toes. So far, it looked like that principle was a good one. Then, I did my normal sets of deep squats. In this case, my knees were out further than my toes throughout almost the entire set. But, my knees didn't hurt a bit! My conclusion: It must be the process of stopping halfway down that places stress on the knees during half squats. The only good way to compensate is to stick your ass way out. But, as an earlier poster noted, it's impossible to squat deep WITHOUT your knees moving out further than your toes. So, I'll guess you'll have to choose between principles! Also, if anyone decides to switch from half squats to deep squats, cut way back on the weight. WAY back! If you're using 135 for half squats, start with just the bar. If you're using less, start with an EZ curl bar, or a broomstick. Then build up from there. Impress people with your depth, not your weight! (What do you know -- that's a good principle for life in general!) Hope this helps, - Peter Bell From jburnell@jps.net Wed Sep 10 12:46:03 PDT 1997 In article <01bcbcd0$72bf7260$ab9193d0@tag.HiWAAY.net>, "Bil & Tag" wrote: > > painKiller wrote: > > > i've seen some people squat with a bench underneat them, they almost sit > on > > it when their down. this does NOT look very safe.. > > You're correct. It's not safe. > _____________________________________ Not entirely true. Box squatting and bench squatting can be done safely. A large number of powerlifters incorporate box work into their training. Generally, it is done with a fairly light weight - 60-80% of 1RM on a box that is well below parallel. This technique requires you to control the weight on the way down, stop on the box and explode up. It teaches explosion out of the hole and due to the lighter weights used also works to reinforce form and technique. Also, because you must stop on the box, each and every rep are done to the same depth. High boxes also can be used, primarily to overcome a sticking point. Say, for example, you have a sticking point 5" above parallel. Then you use a box that forces you to stop at that point and work there. Typically, highter weights would be used on the higher boxes. Why not just use the safety pins in the cage to stop the bar at the desired height? One reason is that, with the box, the body is forced to support the weight the whole time. Another variation is to use an extremely low box (8-10") to overload the hip extensors. This is particularly usefull for sumo deadlifters- to build power off the floor- as well as to build low power in the squat. Are these dangerous, yes and no. If you are cautious they are no more dangerous than most of the other exercises done in a workout. The problems begin when the trainees start using weights they have no business handling and dropping onto a 19" box. For example, if you are a 400 lb squatter and you start trying to do high box work with 550 lbs or so you will have a hard time controllong the weight and you will crash your tailbone on the box. The spinal compression would be so great that you probably wouldn't even hear me laughing through all the pain. So, as long as you are not an idiot you can probably do box work fairly safely. Of course, one must consider that there are enough idiots around to keep the "morons in the gym" thred running indefinitely. From william.greene@msfc.nasa.gov Wed Sep 10 12:46:23 PDT 1997 jburnell@jps.net wrote: > "Bil & Tag" wrote: > > > > > > painKiller wrote: > > > > > i've seen some people squat with a bench underneat them, they almost sit > > on > > > it when their down. this does NOT look very safe.. > > > > You're correct. It's not safe. [snip - very good box squatting discussion] Yep, Jason, I've seen this done by powerlifters working on very specialized elements of their squat form. But I think that the point you made which should be stressed is that this is an occasional technique used experienced lifters working on very specific elements. I would maintain, and I think you would agree, that most of the time for most of the people in the gym squatting should be performed without a box or stool. I've too often seen inexperienced people using a box or bench for no apparent reason other than to provide a thudding stop at the bottom. The compression on the spine is tremendous. This is simply not safe. Bil From jas0570@unixmail.ks.boeing.com Wed Sep 10 12:47:19 PDT 1997 jburnell@jps.net wrote: > > Not entirely true. Box squatting and bench squatting can be done safely. > A large number of powerlifters incorporate box work into their training. > Generally, it is done with a fairly light weight - 60-80% of 1RM on a box > that is well below parallel. This technique requires you to control the > weight on the way down, stop on the box and explode up. ( snipped much excellent info from jburnelle ) The unsafe part comes from people imitating what they see without knowing why its done. Box squats are one example, but so are board squats (= squats w/ lifted heels), behind the neck lat pulls, and other much-discussed excercises. All these, if done correctly and for the right reason, are immensely helpful. If done incorrectly, too heavy, wrong reason, well, injury can easily follow. Let me suggest an alternative to box squats for those who need explosive pawer but don't have access to a good trainer or aren't specialized as powerlifters. The alternative is a pause squat, useful for football players, discus throwers, sprinters. A pause squat, like box, is done 60-80% of 1RM. It is done with a spotter for the usual safety reasons. But the spotter also watches your depth, making sure you go to parallel, at least. Spotter counts "one-two" and you drive up. The end result is about the same, safer for the average person, and eliminates the risk of crushing the spine. Pause squats, like board squats and all the other squat varieties, are done as adjuncts to the main squat routine, and maybe ond differnt days (you are training different energy systems, after all.) -- Jeff From jburnell@jps.net Fri Sep 19 22:16:00 PDT 1997 In article <5vbqq7$l26$1@carbon.cudenver.edu>, aforrest@ouray.cudenver.edu (the tree by the river) wrote: > Hadn't noticed a problem with wanting to look down, but the mirror I > usually face while in the squat rack is a ways away. For me, a mirror > does come in rather handy, not so much for depth, but to keep me doing > the movement evenly (left to my own devices, I tend to twist or tip to > one side without being aware of it). > -- I should have clarified. At many gyms the cages/racks are against the walls and the mirror is right there. People have a tendency to look in the mirror and in order to see the 'whole picture' they have to look down. If the mirror is across the room you can maintain proper position and still see yourself ---assuming you have proper vision. :) I still don't recommend it for competitive litfters. On meet day there are always many distractions around the platform. I face away from the wall so all the gym dorks are in my face as I squat. If I can lift with all the crap I see at the gym going on nothing on meet day will bug me. -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From Tianyu_Wen*NO_SPAM*@ccm.co.intel.com Fri Sep 19 22:16:37 PDT 1997 Deepsquatter, I know exactly what you're saying. In my gym (Gold's, recently purchased by 24 Hour Fitness), the squat cages are on one side of the gym, right in front of the mirrors. When I squat, I try to make eye contact with myself in the mirror. This way, I'm always looking straight forward. I use the same technique when I'm deadlifting. However, a friend of mine, a good powerlifter, recommends a different technique. He recommends that on the way up (for squatting and deadlifting), I should try to look upward, instead of looking forward. I've tried this technique couple of times and I've found it good for keeping my back straight. However, it worsened my balance. Maybe I'm just not used to it. What do you think? Tianyu Bob Mann wrote in article <341c667d.3647624@news.escape.ca>... > Deepsquatter wrote: > > > I should have clarified. At many gyms the cages/racks are against the > >walls and the mirror is right there. People have a tendency to look in > >the mirror and in order to see the 'whole picture' they have to look > >down. If the mirror is across the room you can maintain proper position > >and still see yourself ---assuming you have proper vision. :) > > > >I still don't recommend it for competitive litfters. On meet day there > >are always many distractions around the platform. I face away from the > >wall so all the gym dorks are in my face as I squat. If I can lift with > >all the crap I see at the gym going on nothing on meet day will bug me. > > Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:06:06 -0600 From: Darcy Semeniuk Subject: Work your damn abs! ------------------------------------------- One interesting discovery I've made over the past year is just how important ab strength is in working out. If you want a good squat and dead, you gotta have super strong abs. When I was squatting my 5RM or heavier, my hips would rise up faster than my shoulders (I would tip forward). I'd then have to use a lot of lower back to finish the lift. According to everyone I talked to, I had a weak lower back, and had to strengthen it. When doing deads (conventional), my lower back got very sore. "Work your lower back directly" was the answer I was given. So I diligently did my good mornings, weighted hypers, round back deads, etc. My back got stronger, but the problem didn't go away (it just occurred at a higher weight). then about 6 months ago, I started really working abs hard. Well, guess what, the problems have gone away. It wasn't that I had a weak lower back, it was that my abs were weak, and that allowed my upper body to cave in when I lifted near max weights. Now, the only time this happens is when I omit to really clench my abs on a squat or dead. However, the key is specificity. I though my abs were in fine shape. I could do the Legendary Abs workout at level 6 or 7 (I lost my book when I moved). I could do tons of crunches (50-100) without a problem. This was all fine and dandy, but didn't help when it counted...near max lifts. What I did was heavy weighted crunches with a pause. Use a weight heavy enough so you can only get 5-10 reps, and pause each rep at the top for 5 seconds. The pause mimics the isometric contraction you need when squatting and deadlifting. Try putting a pad under your hips when you do weighted crunches to give yourself a larger range of motion and make the exercise even harder! I also do heavy side bends (with a barbell). Again, use a weight heavy enough to limit yourself to 5-10 reps. (A side bonus is that you get to work your grip here as well.) I do crunches off of a hyper-extension machine. Sure, the hip-flexors do some of the work, but who cares! Work your abs heavy and hard, twice a week, and you'll see the results. Don't think that just doing lots of reps will help. Would you try to increase your 1RM in bench by doing sets of 50-100? Not if you are sensible. The same applies to abs. Heavy weights, low reps are the way to go. Don't think that your abs are getting enough work just from the other exercises you're doing. They may need direct work (as do other parts such as tris and delts) to get stronger And remember to clench those abs when you squat and dead. It'll help keep you upright and make the lift that much easier to complete. Darcy Semeniuk NovAtel Inc. dsemeniuk@novatel.ca http://www.novatel.ca From: Jeff Minard Subject: "Look of Power" routine - Super Squats Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:17:37 -0700 The Breathing Squats, also known as the 20-rep squats, apparently originated years ago as a breakthru routine, and a book by Randall Strossen was put out on it. It's called Super Squats- about 100 pages, but gives some history of the squat, and the definitive details for this routine. This is the original source of everyone else's mention of it. It's apparently the single most effective routine you can follow, and anything else you do can be added to it.. but seems like it must be a part of every serious routine. I got the book from a great outfit called Iron Mind in Sacramento, CAL at 916-265-6725 or fax at 916-265-4876. No website, but they'll mail you a catalog. They seem to have some great books and products (like hand grips) that are serious and low-hype, just effective. I got the book from a great outfit called Iron Mind in Sacramento, CAL at 916-265-6725 or fax at 916-265-4876. No website, but they'll mail you a catalog. They seem to have some great books and products (like hand grips) that are serious and low-hype, just effective. And, no I don't work for them! I do like the serious small outfits, though. And I've started breathing squats and definitely notice a difference. Jeff Minard From mstaples@poboxes.com Sun Sep 28 07:59:03 PDT 1997 RacerX 012 wrote: > > the other day i was squatting heavy i realized something. my form sucked!! > i can do front squats to the floor but i didnt even get to parrallel on > back squats. i decided to just squat with 315 this week and concentrate on > good form. i am especially trying to improve my lower quads and outer > sweep. any advice on stretches and form appreciated > Hell, yeah, form baby!!!!! Sometimes I have seen my best periods of growth when I have backed off a little on the weight and concentrated on form, as it is easy to fall into the trap of moving up in weight all the time, and not noticing what is happening to how you are performing the exercises. Good luck! Matt Staples Washington State University Email: mstaples@poboxes.com From: Rod Blumenau Subject: Re: stopping early in squats Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:24:45 -0400 Greetings, Derek recently mentioned a psychological block to pushing squats as hard as he pushed deadlifts. One way I get around that is to actually push a set of squats to failure in a squat rack. If I am squatting up to 350, I may choose 225 as a finishing weight. Just squat with this until you can't lift it again. The weight isn't so much that you really fear it and the squat rack will catch you. For me at least, that last squat doesn't give way suddenly. I fight it all the way down until the safety bars catch it. Once you see that the safety bars are your friends, you won't worry as much about failing with squats, IMHO. -Eric Blumenau Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 07:09:43 -0700 From: Scott Helmer Subject: Stuck Squats You might want to try some pin squats. In the squat rack, set the pins at parallel and place the bar on them. Get under the bar and explode up and reset and stop each rep. We work up to a top single or double. These will help you to keep your knees out and will develop explosiveness in your squat. I added these to my cycle and in 5 short weeks, went from 485 to 531. They work. Perform about 3 heavy sets. You may also want to perform some low box squats on your light day (50% of your max). Do 8 sets of 3 reps and sit on the box as though sitting on a curb. Explode up each rep. These will help you to maintain bar speed during the squat, a problem that sprouts up as one gets stale or stalls. Scott ------ From kimberley.denson.nospam@ntc.nokia.com Wed Oct 8 22:05:09 PDT 1997 Steve Kidwell wrote: > > I squatted heavy for the first time since since February last Friday. > Heavy for me is 495 or higher. Last night I noticed a bruise on my > left outer thigh in the fasciae(sp?) area. The area is also raised a > little. The bruise is a little bigger than the size of your thumb and > pretty tender to touch. > > Could this be the result of squatting or did I run into something and > not realize it? I don't bruise easily either from getting hit, so I > feel like it's an internal microtear of some sort. I have had these > bruises before, but always assumed I just hit something with my leg > going to piss in the middle of the night or something, but I feel like > this one is related to the heavy squats. > > Any input would be appreciated. > Sounds to me like you ran into something pretty heavy duty. I've been known to bruise pretty bad after a heavy workout (cause I was pissed off BEFORE the workout) I did after one grueling workout (a legpress of 1,000lbs ...YES!!) I had dark marks up and down my quads..they weren't really big but it was really "spotty". I was sore for 4 days afterwards but the bruising lingered. I'm pretty possitive it was from that as well (broken cappilaries close to the top of the skin). Unfortunately it wasn't just tiny spots that were swollen..OUCH!! If that one raised area is the only part thats swollen and tender to the touch..my opinion is you bumped something. (probably on the way to the tinkle room) :) -- Kimberley Denson From tag@hiwaay.net Mon Oct 13 06:37:32 PDT 1997 nitroman wrote: > > Jon Harris wrote: > > What do you guys think of the hack squat? How does it compare to the > > traditional barbell squat in terms of muscles exercised and potential for > > growth? How about leg press? > > > How about trying each one for 2 weeks? How about doing all 3 on leg day, > that would be better. Doing all 3 should work the muscles in a different > way, which provide more paths for growth. No. No. No. The idea of trying to do every available exercise for a given body part every single workout is a sure-fire recipe for overtraining and burnout. I can't tell you how many people I've seen utterly exhausted, frustrated, and just plain sick of training simply because they somehow convinced themselves that they have to do 12 different exercises for shoulders every single shoulder workout (for example). Move exercises in and out of your program, rotate them through cycles. Do the big ones, the cornerstone exercises (squat, bench, deadlift/bb bent row, etc.) on a regular basis but be flexible, creative, even spontaneous about the others. To the original question. Nothing is better than plain old squats. Period. However, I for one cannot squat every week because of back problems so on my off weeks I use the leg press as my primary exercise and hack as a secondary movement. With hacks (depending *strongly* upon the particular machine) your legs are not in their most advantageous position so you cannot use your full compliment of strength. Thus, it becomes more isolating upon the muscles that are used. I think of it as something of a pseudo-compound movement. _____________________________________ "Bil & Tag" a.k.a. William and Tracey Greene Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:03:04 -0600 From: Garry Holmen Subject: Re: Puzzling Squat Problem >I am currently helping train a friend for his first powerlifting >competition, he is 5ft 10ins and 165lb of light-medium build. He is >reasonably new to both heavy training and powerlifting, but is making >reasonable progress in the d/lift and bench (330 and 180 respectively so >far). The problem he is having is with the squat, whenever the weight >starts to get heavy ( > than 240 on triples) he suddenly develops a >tendancy to bend over excessively and rely on back strength to perform >the lift (i.e. hips rise first, then back performs the rest). Without actually viewing your friends squat I would think that he has some technique problems with his squat. When someone 'caves' and their shoulders slump forward out of the hole it typically means that the abs are not keeping the body in an upright position. The hips rise before the back and then it's a good morning from there. As he is sinking his squat tighten up those abs as hard as he can... when I'm going down on squats I'm only thinking tight abs and knees out. The other possibility is that he is not starting the movement from the hips. Squats should start with a bend at the hips like he's going to sit backwards into a chair. If he's starting at the knees there is less likelihood he's going to stay upright, more back work at the bottom and less use of the large glute and hamstring muscles. As for training here are my two suggestions. 1) Heavy and static abs... forget the crunches for reps. Hold that 45lbs for 5-10 seconds at the top of the lift and concentrate on curling up through the abs slowly. I love to do these from a hyperextension bench so I can get a 'really' long movement. Reps don't count... heavy. static stomach exercises is what you want. And to concentrate on those abs to keep you upright in the squat. 2) Pause squats. Set your power cage pins/catch bars up so that you can lower the squat slowly to the pins. At the bottom position where the catch bars intervene you should be below parallel. Pause for a second. Now power up from there keeping your back upright and the abs tight. You're going to need to drop the weight to do these properly and they are very tough on the hip flexors. Garry Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 02:41:17 -0400 From: Paul Chek Subject: Puzzling Squat Problem: >I am currently helping train a friend for his first powerlifting > competition, he is 5ft 10ins and 165lb of light-medium build. He is > reasonably new to both heavy training and powerlifting, but is making > reasonable progress in the d/lift and bench (330 and 180 respectively so > far). The problem he is having is with the squat, whenever the weight > starts to get heavy ( > than 240 on triples) he suddenly develops a > tendancy to bend over excessively and rely on back strength to perform > the lift (i.e. hips rise first, then back performs the rest).< Dear Readers, I would like to address the above issue, but must be succinct due to time restraints and pending projects: Sounds like this man may be suffering from several things: 1. May have a long torso, leading to a higher center of gravity and greater relative load on his back extensors. This is often the case when Dead Lift strength is good and squat is poor (but not always). To fix, see below: 2. Poor Form: If he is not well schooled in squat technique, he will have faulty recruitment patterns. This is often referred to as co-contraction. When beginning heavy squats, novices often tend to over-recruit the lats and rectus abdominus. The Lat recruitment is often seen as (and felt by the squatter) as an attempt to pull downward on the bar. Both of these muscles will act to flex the trunk at the sticking point in spite of the fact that the brain is activating them in attempt to tighten the thoraco-lumbar fascia. The thoraco-lumbar facia mechanism is dependant upon synergistic recruitment of the gluteus maximus, internal oblique, transverse abdominus, erector spinae and latissimus dorsi. When properly activated, the mechanism creates an extension force on the lumbar spine and is directly related to the intra-abdominal pressure mechanism and hydraulic amplifier mechanism. If the abdominal muscles are activated in a flexor pattern, which is inevitable if the rectus abdominus is activated, then the lumbar extensors are often overloaded, as evidenced by the forward bend. To protect this athlete from progressively programming his nervous system to perform with poor squat technique, you can implement the following: 1. Prior to initiating the squat, athlete should take a full breath, filling the thoracic cavity. This is a prerequisite to functional activation of the intra-abdominal pressure mechanism and all others mentioned above. - keep grip as close to shoulders as possible to assist in activating the thoracic extensors and scapular adductors, which help hold the trunk erect. 2. Having taken the full breath, have him draw his belly button toward his spine, keeping it pulled in tightly through the entire lift. This ensures activation of the transverse abdominus and deactivation of the rectus abdominus. - If wearing a weight belt, tell him not to allow his stomach to press on the belt at all! Wearing the belt only encourages rectus abdominus activation and faulty recruitment patterns. This is a major source of potential back pain in all who wear weight belts! The sooner you wean off weight belts the better. It is essential that the abdominal wall be trained to subconscious competency prior to letting athletes use belts for big lifts or the faulty recruitment patterns will accelerate your chances of disk, facet joint, and ligament injury. 3. Prior to initiating the squat from the KNEES (not the hips), have him lift his toes in his shoes. This will functionally shorten his feet, causing the brain to alter the recruitment of his trunk extensors to move the combined center of gravity (of the athlete and the load on his back) backward over the now shortened foot. Sometimes it works too well and athlete can fall over backward - so be prepared! 4. As he progresses through the ascent, only allow the air to be released through moderately opened lips, otherwise you lose thoracic cavity pressure, which destabilizes the rest of the torso and results in overload of the back extensors! - Additionally, as he comes off the bottom, encourage forward migration of his elbows. This will activate the thoracic extensors and contribute to his extensor strength. I hope this helps. It is a very complex topic. The interested reader can learn much more from reviewing my videos and published material. Sincerely, Paul Chek MSS, HHP, NMT www.paulchekseminars.com ------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:56:22 -0600 From: Kline Subject: Re: Partials and Walt Thomas >A few years ago, I bought a book by Walter Thomas who advocates training >with partial reps with heavier than max weights. For example, doing one >quater depth squats with something like 120% of max. Has anyone had any >experiences with such training? Is overtraining a big problem? Are >injuries a real concern? Just curious. I have never really tried this >type of training because I havent had a power rack (or spotters >that I really trusted that much). The gym I belong to now does have power >racks and I was curious what the strength group here thought about this >form of training? Any advice? Best, Todd Shields Partials are a good adjunct to normal training providing overload as well as variety... Walter trains at the local gym and I have noticed that most of his partials are pressed from the bottom position verse a normal movement of starting at lockout, eccentric, and press to lockout...and it has worked well for him. He has enormously thick /full pecks that any bodybuilder would die for as well as triceps. Steve Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:13:16 -0700 From: Garry Holmen Subject: Squat:Knees or Hips >I don't mean to take issue with Garry, or the Canadian Coaching Manual for Powerlifting, but I can't see how you >can initiate the squat by breaking at the hips without simultaneously breaking at the knees... unless you bend over >(bow) forward. No issue taken. This is what this list is for. The manual states that 'A break in the knees will follow automatically'. In my experience the break in the knees does happen almost simultaneously to the hip movement but I know I don't concentrate on it. I just start the movement by pushing the hips back. I find if I concentrate on starting with knees first then I don't push the weight as far back as it should go and don't keep as upright in the movement. > [maybe I'm built weird. I sure look weird standing in front of my computer doing this] If you start the movement by >a forward bend at the hips it seems unlikely that you would stay more upright. >Conversely, you _can_ initiate the movement by bending the knees first (albeit only a fraction) and this tends to start >you sitting back. It's a very subtle difference. You can also start the movement by bending at the knees and not sit back in the squat. You cannot do this if you start the movement at the hips. If you start the movement from the hips you are guaranteed to be sitting back in the squat. I never realised this myself until I read Louie Simmons talking about it in PLUSA. Now my shins are much more perpendicular and the weight stays in a much more vertical plane then it did when I started squats from the knees. >On the topic of raising the toes to shift the center of gravity rearward... I have had some success with telling people >to imagine the force flowing through their heals [You can do this standing in front of your computer too. Come on, >you can't have an opinion by just thinking about this, you have to try it.] I agree... one of the pieces of advice I give is to push through the heels. Garry Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:32:23 -0700 From: Darcy Semeniuk Subject: Squatting...lots O things First, when I want to clarify the "breaking at the hips first" comment. I'm getting the feeling (and I could be wrong) that people are interpreting this as bending forward at the hips. This is not what I do. When I say bend at the hips first, what I'm doing is pushing the butt backwards. The weight stays over my feet (i.e. it doesn't move forwards or backwards). This allows me to get a good arch in my back, as well as ensures that the weight stays on my heels. Second, on the close vs wide hand position, I have to say that I've tried both and found that narrow is better. Using a narrow grip allows me to keep the lats contracted, and shoulder blades together "better". I'm much stronger in this position as my body stays more upright. Additionally, I find that there is less stress on my arms (I tend to push with the arms on maximal squat attempts - bad Darcy) using a narrow grip. Dan, while changing grip position might not have any affect on the primary movers, I do believe it can have some affect on the amount of weight someone is able to move. If a certain grip allows you to keep "tighter" and in a better position, you should be able to lift more. Darcy Semeniuk NovAtel Inc. dsemeniuk@novatel.ca http://www.novatel.ca Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:54:02 -0700 From: Darcy Semeniuk Subject: Re: Mike's Technique > From: Namgawd@AOL.COM > Mike, I find this really curious. How can pushing your abs against the belt keep you straight? > [...]. > If you're ending up leaning forward, train your erectors more. Dan, while this sounds logical (ie if you lean forward, you have to train your erectors harder and make them stronger) it isn't necessarily the correct answer. I (and others I've talked to) have had this problem (leaning forward), and the solution wasn't to strengthen the erectors, but to strengthen the abs and make a conscious effort to keep them tight through the lift. It does work. Think about it. Your erectors can pull you into a more upright position, and your abs can push you into an upright position (or at least prevent you from leaning forward). they both have to be strong, not just one of them. Cheers, Darcy Semeniuk NovAtel Inc. dsemeniuk@novatel.ca http://www.novatel.ca Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:11:58 -0600 From: "Jeffrey A. Schiffel" Subject: Front Squats -- How? Can anyone point me to a source that describes how to do squats with the bar in front, that is, in the clean position laying across the front deltoids? There are no Olympic lifters in my area and I can't find powerlifters that seem knowledgeable. I am having difficulty in gripping and controlling the bar. I am looking for books, web sites, advice, whatever. In particular I need some guidance on hand and elbow placement, flexiblity implications in the wrist and forearms, and the best place to set the bar. For what it's worth, here's why I ask: I have been fighting patellar tendinitis, tight IT bands, and a host of leg and knee joint problems long before I started powerlifting. I've chosen to concentrate on deadlifting for now, using squat day for lighter leg work through a variety of squats: power with bar down low, narrow stance with bar up high, front, lunges, and so on. The point is to squat sort of theraputically for now, least I run into major problems later, while concentrating on the other two lifts. My 3-month intent is to hit the quad group from a lot of angles and to re-train the tracking of my knee joint. And to make sure there are no agonist/antagonist imbalances from the waist on down. I'm doing a lot of stretching with this, and plan a series of short (7-week) periods. My 3-month goal is repetitions of 3 - 5 with squats not passing body weight, deads a about twice body weight, and bench for a little over body weight. I've only been concentrating on PL for less than a year (pushing age 50, BTW) and find I require LOTS of rest for recovery. If all goes well, I hope to be able to make great strides in squat weight the first of the year. But in the meanwhile I'm running the risk of dropping the bar when held for front squats. --Jeff Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:28:53 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Front Squats -- How? Jeffrey wrote, > >Can anyone point me to a source that describes how to do squats with the >bar in front, that is, in the clean position laying across the front >deltoids? Sounds like we have very similiar problems Jeff. I have a bad knee which is affecting my training and causes a lot of problems in the squat movement. It also causes me to deadlift conventionally instead of sumo. I'm 40 instead of 50, but other than that ... My question is whether the front squat is a good exercise selection in your case. I also have bursitis in the shoulders which I have to be careful not to aggravate. For this reason I don't do the front squat. Rather than the front squat I would suggest Zercher squats, going very low on this exercise. Zercher squats are done with the bar held in front between the forearm and the biceps. A towel wrapped around the bar will be necessary to handle any kind of weight. The advantage of the Zercher squat is that it forces you to move your knees out and try and keep the shins vertical. A front squat brings the knees forward - which isn't great for PL. Just a suggestion Jeff. I just completed my first contest and really have to work on technique and bringing the hips down in the squat movement. I also follow a 7 week cycle and my key squat assistance exercises will be the box squat or pin squat and the zercher squat. Good lifting! Keith Hobman Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:28:56 -0500 From: "Frederick C. Hatfield, Ph.D., FISSA" Subject: HAnd position during the squat In a message dated 97-10-30 21:13:57 EST, you write: << The tri's are still working the same. So just do pushdowns and your tri's will grow. The feel is just a mechanical thing. It's the same in hand position on the bar when you squat. Dan W. >> The first statement is obviously true. However, keeping your hands as close as possible when squatting is a good idea for a very practical reason having nothing to do with "feel." First, acknowledging the importance of the stabilizers' function during any given lift is a given. Then, extending that concept, by keeping your hands in as close as possible when squatting, you effectively "stabilize" the entire shoulder girdle in order to support the weight better. This has the net effect of making it easier for the lifter to maintain an erect torso (by statically contracting all of the erector muscles of your spine), particularly when blasting out of the hole. IMHO... Fred Hatfield Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:42:57 -0600 From: "Jeffrey A. Schiffel" Subject: Re: Abs and Erectors D. wagman (I think) originally wrote: >> Yes, you need strong abs for purposes of stabilization. However, >> the abs flex the trunk whereas the erectors extend it. The >> erectors should be trained more diligently for forward lean problems. Then D. Semeniuk replied: > And if you're already training the erectors diligently and still > have a forward lean problem, the abs should be trained with equal > diligence. And in addition to training, the lifter should > be taught to use the abs properly when squatting. This means > consciously contracting the abs hard at the bottom of the lift. Strong erectors pull the spine up. OK, fine, we sure need that. But if the pelvis angle is wrong the erectors cannot pull the torso upright enough. At the bottom of a deadlift or squat the pelvis has a tendency to tip forward. The fault of the body to lean forward follows. It's true that the abs flex the trunk. But another way to look at it is that they also rotate the pelvis, shortening the distance between the ribs and hipbones. (They do, afterall, attach at each end.) A strong contraction of the deep layer abdominals at the bottom of the lift will cause the tailbone to be pulled under. This brings the pelvis to a more upright angle. There is not much apparent movement, but it happens. Now the erectors can maintain the trunk angle established in part by the pelvis while the lift is completed. The abs, especially the deep layers, do more than stabilize. They establish the pelvis position. I'd expect that internal abdominal pressure also is involved, whether by trying to pull the bellybutton to the backbone or by pushing against the belt -- whichever turns you on :-) Opinions? -- Jeff Subject: Re: throwing up from squats From: Cecchini Ron Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:07:40 -0800 From: Tom Toth > Until a few months ago I had a similar problem, though not as > extreme. The way I solved it is by putting squats at the end of my leg > workout. This action has several benefits: first of all, if you do get > sick, you already finished your workout; also, you will most likely lift > somewhat less weight, which decreases the chance of feeling > nauseous; Sorry, I'm confused... Lifting "less weight" is a *better* thing? Or do you mean that, since you'll be tired, you'll be squatting less weight, and hence will not get nauseous? Either way, I disagree. Just because the weight is lowered does not mean your performance level is correspondingly lowered; i.e. you can make yourself puke squatting 135 for a hundred reps or so... Anyway, whether squats are your first or last movement is irrelevant - I've done 'em as my primary movement, and as my "finishing" (HITers love that one) movement. The selected movement doesn't matter (too much), the intensity does. And if your intensity is going to vary at all, it should obviously be higher at the beginning of the workout than at the end. That being said (what was my point?) oh, "pulling the trigger" (as Matt B. likes to say) is not necessarily a function of the exercise performed. And with quads, when you train with a high degree of intensity, you can expect to get nauseous quite a bit. The only help I can give you would be to: a) not eat for several hours before your workout (although, from personal experience, I can tell you that this doesn't necessarily prevent dry-heaving) b) don't take any Dymetadrine (or other strong stimulants) on an empty stomach before your workout, as they'll tend to irritate it c) make sure that you are breathing correctly during the set (for squats: breathe in at the top, hold, squat, breathe out as you stand back up) d) like someone else said, take some deep breaths between sets, curl up in a ball to fight off the nausea if you have to e) just puke and go back to your set! f) get used to it. Anyway, sounds like you guys are squatting righteously! (I'm currently in a leg-press mode, but I'm worshippin' the same porcelain god you guys are...) Ron.Cecchini@GSC.GTE.Com Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 17:49:00 -0600 From: Bob Mann Subject: Re: chains At 07:28 26/11/97 -0500, Ted Chang wrote: > >How does one use chains in squats or benches? > Take a small chain and hang it from the spring clip at the end of the bar. Attach it with an S hook. Loop it through the end of a larger chain so that the large chain just reaches the floor when the bar is at it's peak. As you squat down the chain coils on the floor and the weight is reduced. As you rise up the weight increases to give you an even load throughout the movement. Bob Mann Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:56:14 -0500 From: Namgawd@AOL.COM Subject: Chains In a message dated 97-11-26 01:33:56 EST, you write: << I've seen it done a few times at my gym. The guys who do it swear by it. It allows greater acceleration off the bottom and greater resistance at the top. >> Yes, that's true. And I suspect that you'd even make some gains. But that's basically because you're changing the stress placed on your body. Whenever you do that, in any manner, you're expected to make some sort of gain. In terms of the big picture (training gains for many years to come, specifically strength gains) your gains will be limited. Here's why. Our bodies were not designed to lift X amount of weight in this manner (quickly at the start and slow at the end of contraction). Now, I can hear the "but's" already. I'm specifically talking about maximal weight moved. Nothing else. What you learn here (chains) is to move quickly out of the hole with lighter weight and then you slow down at the top with heavier weight. This is distinctively different than what you actually do in a meet. Thus your body is learning to do the wrong thing. This is similar to some equipment manufacturers claiming that because of their cam which changes the point of maximal resistance you'll get bigger faster. I was observing research in this matter at the U. of Kansas and interestingly enough the muscle didn't respond well to this type of stimulus. Other research would support this. Reason? Our muscles and nervous system are simply not made to respond that way and although you can get a certain training effect it's mostly due to the novelty of movement, yet anything but maximal. Look at it this way. Our bodies (muscles) are designed to work in accordance to nature's laws. One of nature's laws is that overcoming inertia (getting an object moving) is the most difficult aspect. Once it moves it takes LESS force or strength to keep it moving. And that happens in the squat, too. So why train the opposite way? Besides, doing so also violates one of the most important physiological laws - training specificity. Want to increase your power out of the hole? Take the weight down there and hold it for a 3-count, then explode. Now you're talking about training in a way that your muscles/nerves were designed to and you've also increased the training specificity. Try this: For the next 4 weeks drop your training weight and just do dead stops on all of your sets, including warmups. Then go back to your regular style and weight. I guarantee that the pinheads who're watching you in awe won't even be able to see you go from the hole to lockout, that's how explosive and quick you'll become. Dan Wagman Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:23:28 -0800 From: Deepsquatter Subject: comment on chains > Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:56:14 -0500 > From: Namgawd@AOL.COM > > What you learn here (chains) is to move quickly out of the hole with lighter > weight and then you slow down at the top with heavier weight. This is > distinctively different than what you actually do in a meet. Thus your > body is learning to do the wrong thing. [snipped an interesting analysis of the squat] I agree with everything Mr Wagman said, *IF* you don't wear a suit and wraps during a meet. If you do, then consider the following: 1) Training with the chains(on the speed day) makes you work harder above parallel to lockout. 2) With a suit and wraps on this is where most people fail in a meet. It is rare that someone can't get out of the hole with a suit and wraps on. It is usually anywhere from a few inches above parallel to a few inches from the top. 3) Another part of the workout is heavy singles on day 2 - alternating squatting and pulling movements. The training is done wothout knee wraps and in shorts or just loose suit bottoms. These generally will hit the muscles that work the bottom of the squat hard. Jason W. Burnell - email me for info on the STRENGTH list Deepsquatter's World of Powerlifting http://home.jps.net/cburnell/deepsquatter.htm Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:16:23 -0700 From: Garry Holmen Subject: Re: Chains I'm going to disagree with you again here Dan. We're talking at most 2' chain being moved on either side of the bar for a total difference of maybe 30 lbs from the top to bottom of the movement. Now I don't know about your squatting but if I can move it quickly out of the hole, then I'm not going to slow down when 30 lbs are gradually added just prior to lock out. When I do partials there is a bigger difference then that at the bottom and top of my lift. So what do you use chains for?... in my opinion you put them on so that at the bottom of the lift you're doing your target weight but you do get some of the benefit of the increased work load at the top of the lift. Thus I'm doing more work on a single set and I get to tax the muscles involved in the upper movement of the lift. Thus when I do a maximal lift once I get it out of the hole the rest of the way is easy. I do agree with Tom though... if I worked out at a gym I wouldn't want to carry 60 lbs of noisy chains in and out of a gym. Most of the public freak when I just do deadlifts. But in a home gym I have the luxury of making that change. As I see it... any change is probably going to do me good. Garry Subject: Re: Squat problem? From: dsreyn@ll.mit.edu (Doug Reynolds) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:07:57 -0800 "Monaghan Associates" writes: > The other day, while squatting, I noticed that my right foot tends to stick > out in front of my left by about an inch and half. My right foot also has > a tendency to want to drift outward as the set progresses and I tire. I > imagine this is overcompensation for my weak back (it was the right side > that was injured). Now for the question: How do I rehab my back? I don't > want to lay off training for months at a time...that's why I neglected to > see a doctor originally. In the short term, how do I fix my squat? Please > send any advice my way. Thanks. I haven't tried it, but reverse hyperextensions are supposed to be very good for back rehab. Regular hyperextensions should also help. I also recommend regular and / or straight leg deadlifts - but if your back is still a problem, proceed with caution. And make sure you have sufficient flexibility before starting the straight leg version. In any case, a prior back problem does *not* mean that you should avoid direct back work if you avoid these exercises, your back will continue to be a weakness, and chances are that you will continue having back problems. I suggest the following (some of these suggestions are directed more towards back problems, not specifically at your squatting problem): 1. Have someone knowledgeable check your squat stance and setup, and watch you perform the movement. Or even better - have someone videotape you. It sounds like you *may* be setting up with one foot forward of the other. 2. Check for muscle (strength) imbalances, and not just in your back - check left vs. right hamstrings, quads, etc. If one side is weaker than the other, there are some exercises that can be done one side at a time - lunges, leg curls, leg extensions, etc. 3. Check your flexibility - looking for either an imbalance (one side vs. the other), or a general lack of adequate flexibility. Hamstring flexibility problems in particular are a common cause of back problems. 3a. If you don't already do this, start regular stretching as part of your exercise program. 4. Don't neglect your abdominals - regular crunches (aiming for weighted crunches, rather than ultra high reps) will strengthen your abs, which will help support your back. Doug Subject: Re: Squat problem? From: Robert Hettinga Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:38:29 -0800 As a fat guy who used to be plagued with chronic back pain, I swear by squats. I did the back excercises reccommended by the physical therapist, which helped but never really made the pain go away for much longer than a few days, or even hours, at a time. I still do that stuff as warmup before I work out, but, since I started doing progressively larger squats in a Smith Machine (no real sguat rack/cage where I go), starting from not much wieght at all, (like 1/3 my body weight) and working up (now I'm up to about twice my body weight) my back pain is pretty much gone. Only time I had a problem when when I didn't work out enough, like more than a few weeks, about a year ago. I don't *do* that anymore, is all. :-). Heck, my knees don't hurt as much either. I *love* squats... Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com) From: Cecchini Ron Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:42:28 -0800 Subject: Squat problem? From: "Monaghan Associates" > Several years ago, I injured my lower back on a leg press machine There's already been some good advice, but I just wanted to reiterate how important it is to not let your lower back curl up at the bottom of the movement. Keep your butt and lower back glued to pads at all times, and don't compensate for a lack of hip flexibility by curling your back! > The other day, while squatting, I noticed that my right foot tends to > stick out in front of my left by about an inch and half. Squat in front of a mirror. And lower your poundages while working on developing perfect form. re: leg press - > My right foot also has a tendency to want to drift outward as the set > progresses and I tire. I imagine this is overcompensation for my weak > back No, I think this is natural, and it's usually just 'cause your foot is slipping! Before every leg press set, I try to make sure that the bottoms of my shoes are dried off and sorta "sticky" to minimize the slip. But nothing guarantess that your feet aren't going to *slowly* creep to one side as the set progresses; esp. if you're handling a good amount of weight and doing a decent amount of reps. Also, you didn't describe how you place your feet during the set, but I'd recommend a shoulder-width (14-16 inch separation) stance w/ your toes pointed nearly straight ahead (maybe angle the toes to the outside a tiny bit, depending on how your knees track). > how do I fix my squat? I'll skip foot and bar placement for now, and just emphasize one thing: DO NOT change the angle that your lower back makes at *all* during the set! I.E. pick an angle, and stick w/ it throughout the whole motion! I think I should probably also mention that at no time should your back "round". There should be a slight arch in the lower back at all times (I call it "gorilla butt"). Ron.Cecchini@GSC.GTE.Com Discipline - Desire - Determination - Dedication No Excuses. Shut Up And Train. From beare@mindspring.com Fri Nov 28 20:19:36 PST 1997 Bill Roberts said: >On 22 Nov 1997, UserHarley wrote: > >> Why on earth would you do deadlifts and squats on the same day? >> Patricia C > >Well, suppose you want to do these exercises once per week. Either you do >them both on the same day, or you are in the situation of doing one on one >day, and then the other on the third day. Some people don't like that. > >They certainly can be trained on the same day, so long as one avoids >burning out with a lot of sets with relatively low percentage of 1RM >(say, under 70%) on the first type of exercise performed. > >-- Bill > > I've done heavy deads (triples) followed by 20-rep squats b4. Grueling and brutal, but quite effective. ROBO and Sonia From angelak@intelinex.net Fri Nov 28 20:50:56 PST 1997 On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:24:11 GMT, fogarty@netcom.com (Tim Fogarty) wrote: >Andrew Russo (arusso@frontiernet.net) wrote: >> Yesterday, toward the end of my work out routien, something happened that's >> never happened before to me...I vomited while working out, not because I >> was sick or anything, it just happened. I've heard of people doing that >> before, how serious is that? should I be concerned? > >It happens. Some people who's entire workouts consist of squats take >pride in it. You were probably overheated and dehydrated. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The first time it happened to me that was exactly the case. It had to be over 90 degrees in there - ugh. I prefer it slightly chilly. I don't see any reason to be concerned about it. Puking seems to be a relatively common thing (at least among mfw members - except you, Romeo) and may be just the body's reaction to the extreme stress a good squat day can produce. Happy initiation! -- Angela "Pump till ya Puke!" Pahlow Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:54:06 -0600 From: Lyle McDonald Subject: Breathing >From: Jack Melon > >Now I notice that a lot of lifters seem to do the same while squatting or >benching heavy. There's no question that we should be "exhaling on the push," >but the question that I would like to put to those of you with more >experience is this: > >Does proper form dictate exhaling through the entire lift or would more >oxygen be available to the system by keeping it in the lungs (not exhaling)? The common dogma is to exhale through the entire concentric portion of the lift. This is especially common in fitness facilities dealing with high risk clients. A valsalva maneuver (exhaling against a closed glottis) can jack blood pressure to sky high levels (I seem to recall 400/300 but please correct the numbers if I recall wrong) for a short period of time. For someone with a pre-existing cardiac condition, this is dangerous. For an otherwise healthy lifter, I don't think it's a big problem. A partial valsalva (hodling breath until you clear the sticking point) will flat out make you stronger. Probably by helping to maintain Intra-abdominal pressure to stablize the spine/torso. this is what I recommend to advanced lifters (the few I have had the pleasure of working with). Invariably their squat improves as they are stronger out of the hole. As to oxygen insufficiency, it's really not an issue during weight training. There's generally more than enough oxygen present in the bloodstream (especially for an anaerobic event like lifting). The problem is extracting it from the tissue, an event made harder by the fact that capillaries close off at around 30% of 1RM. The solution is to pause between reps in a non-contracted position (top of squat/bench, bottom of DL) to allow capillaries to open and oxygen in/waste products out. Lyle McDonald, CSCS Subject: Re: Smith Machines From: huff1399@juno.com (Daniel J Huff) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:03:51 -0800 OK, it's time for me to jump in on this Smith Machine discussion. It seams that the whole discussion in revolving around doing squats on the SM. A squat can be done using proper form on the SM, it simply takes a great deal of concentration. Most people don't want to concentrate, they just want ot lift so the Smith doesn't work for them. As far as the lower back problem is concerned, using the smith better isolates the legs therefore taking stress away from the back. I have a student athlete who had knee surgery approx. a year ago. He has been using the SM for squats and has not once complained about it bothering his knee (and yes, I do ask him if it bothers him). That does it for my comments on the squat. Now for the bench press. there was a comment made about benching on a SM causing shoulder problems. I was a pitcher in college until I had rotator cuff surgery. My shoulder has been weak ever since. I've been benching on the smith with a weak shoulder for about 2 years and have noticed nothing but strength increasing in my shoulder. My shoulder is now stronger than it has been since the surgery (almost as strong as it was before). I work with 5 clients as a personal trainer and 27 student athletes as a strength coach. They all use the SM and I have only had one complaint. It was from a 6ft.8in. basketball player. He can not squat on the SM because he can not stand under the bar. I would recomend a SM to anyone who has access to one. Dan Strength Coach Personal Trainer Subject: Re: Smith Machines Suck, Really they Do From: Cecchini Ron Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:04:25 -0800 From: Dale Hill > PS - Smith Machines Suck Just wanted to cast a vote for the opposing view. There are a few movements that I absolutely love doing on the Smith. My favorite being what I did last night, namely Smith rows w/ a close, supinated grip, ala Yates. Now matter how hard I try to not cheat when doing the same movement w/ a free barbell, I find I can never get the same kind of contraction in the lats that I get when on the Smith. Also, *if* I do any incline bench or military barbell pressing, I prefer to do it on our Smith. I like the angle, and I like the way it feels. Plus, obviously, it comes in handy when there isn't a quality spotter around. Re: Smith squats, well, I *prefer* free-weight squats, but I've done a squat variety on the Smith that I either wouldn't try w/ a free barbell or that is actually impossible to do w/ a free barbell. The first being front squats. I won't even attempt to go over 135 w/ a free barbell. But w/ the Smith I was able to go twice as high. The second is doing squats w/ your legs way out in front of you so that it looks like you're sitting in a chair at the bottom of the movement. You just can't do this w/ a free barbell for obvious physical reasons (unless you have a 10 foot 400 pound appendage growing out of your forehead to counter- balance the weight). Anyway, I never had any problems w/ my knees on this movement, but others might. Ron.Cecchini@GSC.GTE.Com From afahy@wilde.oit.umass.edu Tue Dec 23 22:43:43 PST 1997 Chris Cook (ccook@bu.edu) wrote: : Okay, I've seen both ways. So, what's the general consensus (I'm a HG, don't : thinkn it's relevant, but it might be since I want tailored advice) should my : upper legs/quads be _parallel_ to the floor at my lowest point, or should they : be more angled, meaning I'm sitting my a** even closer to the floor? I've : seen books that recommend both ways... Of course, my goal is to be as big as : possible, with strength an added bonus, but not necessary. Paul Chek had a good description of proper squat depth. I will paraphrase: "How deep should you squat? Bend down until your hands can touch the floor in front of you - that's how deep!" -- Adam Fahy: afahy@oitunix.oit.umass.edu From manu@ikarios.com Tue Dec 23 22:44:51 PST 1997 Chris Cook writes: > Okay, I've seen both ways. So, what's the general consensus (I'm a HG, don't > thinkn it's relevant, but it might be since I want tailored advice) should my > upper legs/quads be _parallel_ to the floor at my lowest point, or should they > be more angled, meaning I'm sitting my a** even closer to the floor? I've > seen books that recommend both ways... Of course, my goal is to be as big as > possible, with strength an added bonus, but not necessary. (Sorry, I don't know what "HG" stands for). I used to favor the "parallel to the floor" approach. That is, until I busted my back years ago doing ballistic bent-over rows with a tight belt on - didn't know better at the time, still paying the price - and had to stop squatting altogether for a long time. When I got back into it, I used to only go down to parallel, thinking it would protect my lower back, but I'd always feel pain the day after so I stopped. When I resumed squatting again, I decided to work on *perfect* form. Ever since, I been doing them in SuperSlow fashion (10 sec up, 5 sec down) going as far down as I can and my lower back is just fine. Moreover, I feel my quads work a lot more this way. I know many training experts advise against deep squats but they've been a blessing for me (SuperSlow also helps a lot). To be on the safe side, don't use heavier weights than you can handle, avoid them if you have had knee injuries and watch your form (no bouncing, etc.). Happy squattin'! > -Chris Manuel http://www.ikarios.com (French Web site)