Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:02:01 -0400 From: Sandeep De Subject: DOMS-Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness > Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 17:37:59 -0400 (EDT) > From: Brian Kipp > Subject: Strength_List: DOMS > > I would, however, stress the importance of post workout nutrition - > minimizing DOMS through the use of dextrose based solutions, protein > shakes and PNF stretching will be highly influential on growth and > recovery - especially with the high volume of training on the system. > > Could you elaborate on your suggestions for minimization of DOMS. I have > been looking for someting other than asparin. Glucose demands (liver, muscle, blood) are high postworkout. Glycogen synthase (enzyme responsible for glycogen deposition) is more active. Insulin can be effectively manipulated to push towards anabolism and not fat deposition. If glucose demands are unmet, the body essentially goes catabolic and starts cannibilizing its own muscle tissue in order to produce glucose through gluconeogenesis (amino acids to glucose).This is obvioulsy counterproductive to what one is trying to achieve (hypertry or strength gain). By consuming a dextrose and water solution, one can quickly A] avoid a great deal of gluconeogenesis induced DOMS B] augment growth and recovery by taking advantage of insulin and C] allow for a higher training volume/frequency due to better glycogen storage in the muscles trained. Consult Macdougall's studies in the area if you are still curious. Depending on training volume, 1g - 2g dextrose per kg (2.2. lbs) of body mass is advisable. Protein shakes, from my own experience and research, are not as effective as dextrose solutions for staving off DOMS. Part of the reason why I think protein shakes can still be effectively used by some is because high quality proteins (such as whey) have been demonstrated to be quickly oxidized for energy or converted into glucose by the body. Why pay for a poor glucose source when a cheap, perfect one exists? ($3 for 5 lbs. of dextrose at a wine making store). But protein is of obvious importance to growth and recovery - as anabolic hormones such as testosterone and growth hormone tend to become elevated as a result of training. PNF stretching is a variety of stretching that involves manipulating the "stretch reflex" in order to facilitate improvements in flexibility. It has been demonstrated to be more effective than conventional static stretching and empirically, I have found it to be more effective. Static stretching sometimes leaves me feeling "too lose" and as though my muscles are not tense enough to produce. This is not the same with PNF. You feel loose, but not like jello. In all honesty though I do not stretch preworkout; I just focus on going through a full range of motion in my compound movements and warming up adequately with descending reps, ascending weight in multiple low repetition sets. If you are curious about PNF stretching, I have written a small introductory article on the subject. For a more thorough treatment, consult Mcatee's "Facilitated Stretching" from www.humankinetics.com (an all around good publisher for training related information). - -- SD www.geocities.com/hotsprings/4039 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:31:05 -0400 From: Sandeep De Subject: Strength_List: Re: Strength-Digest: V1 #74 > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:40:30 -0400 > From: Brian Kipp > Subject: Strength_List: Re: Strength-Digest: V1 #71 > > Thanks in advance for the information, but you have sparked a few new questions. > > For instance: > 1) You stated that " By consuming a dextrose and water solution, one can quickly a] avoid a great deal of gluconeogenesis induced DOMS." > - -It was my understanding that DOMS were the result of microtrauma (or small tears) of the muslel fibers. I have not heard that it is a result > of catabolism of the musle fibers unless you are in a state of starvation. this is an excellent point that i failed to clarify on. there are a number of different models that suggest mechanisms through which muscle proteins are degraded. several noted russian authorities on training strongly believe that protein degradataion is a necessity for sizeable increases in strength and size - my experience tends to agree with them in the *majority* of cases. ischemic rigor (essentially the muscle locking up because of electrolyte/calcium buildup) and eccentric repetitions after that point cause tearing between the actin and myosin filaments. at least, this is the model that i tend to agree with. this is also one of the reasons why i feel eccentric work is so often correlated with tangible increases in size and strength - damage. however, gluconeogenic activity is also responsible for muscle damage, and as such, through utilizing dextrose based solutions, one can minimize soreness from that standpoint - but if one is incurring damage through hard training - there is very little one can do to avoid that - and why would we want. to i like pain. tells me i've done my job. > > 2) You also stated that consuming a dextrose and water solution would result in "better glycogen storage in the muscles trained." I am > confused as to how a sugar solution would promote greater storage for use in a muscle fiber and not be looked at as excess and thus stored as fat. glycogen synthase is more active than normal in glycogen depleted states. so if one takes advantage of this heightened capacity to convert glucose to glycogen, one can potentially store more glycogen than normally possible before fat storage initiates. empirically i must say that it is very difficult to pork out using dextrose solutions strictly post workout while utilziing respectable training volumes i.e. 15-20 sets per workout. i routinely chug around 200 grams from dextrose post workout and keep steady tabs on my caliper measurements; and have yet to see a sizeable increase in bodyfat from the dextrose alone. one must also keep in mind that the potential for fat storage is dependant on other nutritional factors i.e. caloric intake and one's relative level of volume - mechanical work done by the muscle cell. > On the above points I may be ignorant, and if the study by Macdougall answers these questions, I just ask that you would give me the name of the Journal or the > Full name of the author or the date or something that will aid my search. for your benefit i believe that i have notes taken from my journal online on my site in the section called the research lab. off the top of my head i am not sure if the dextrose study is online, but the majority of macdougall's work is published in the journal of applied physiology or the various canadian sports medicine journals. most likely the dextrose one is from the journal of applied physiology. apologies for the uncapitolized text, my shift key is broken (following jason's fascination with louie's techniques, i have recently taken to putting chains on my fingers while i type and have smashed three keyboards this past week :) - -- SD www.geocities.com/hotsprings/4039/ Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 12:11:00 EST From: WestsideBB@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: Sore Elbows It sounds like you've got some Bicipital Tendinitis which originates in the shoulder and radiates downward into the elbows and forearms. I feel your pain brother!!! I've been competing for almost 4 years and I deal w/ it all the time. My shoulders and elbows are killing me right now. I'm in the same boat as you are...sore shoulders and elbows and my meet is on November 14th. Here's my advice (which is merely a temporary solution to an ongoing problem): The only complete solution is to stop training completely. And we all know that ain't gonna happen! Tendinitis is similar to shin splints, it's an overuse injury caused by micro-tears in the tendons that cause inflammation of the tendons, surrounding tissues, and joints. Consequently, we have to find some realistic short-term remedies. 1. Train smart!!! If it hurts, omit the exercise from the workout, or cut it back a little. Compound movements (close-grip bench press, shoulder and elbow joints) are more efficient b/c you are distributing the load over multiple joints as opposed to single joint movements (triceps pressdowns, elbow joint). 2. RICE= Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation. Ice before and after your workouts if necessary for a min of 15 mins. Ultimately try to ice 3x/day. I always keep a bag of frozen peas in my freezer. 3. Find an anti-inflammatory that you can tolerate. I'm not a big fan of drugs, but sometimes we have to take advantage of medicine. The anti- inflammatories should help decrease the inflammation, soreness, and hopefully help decrease muscle soreness from workouts which will speed recovery. Ibuprofen (Motrin, Advil) and Naproxen Sodium (Aleeve) seem to help. I take a generic Ibuprofen (b/c it's cheaper than Advil) 3-4x/day. Each pill is 200 mg. I take 4 pills at a time or 800 mg 3x/day. I know this sounds like a lot, and it is, but most people can tolerate it w/o any side effects other than upset stomach. If you have access to a heavier anti-inflammatory such as Ansaid or Anaprox (commonly used to fight menstrual pain) use them....they work better! Ultimately, your body will build up a tolerance to prolonged use of any drug, so you must switch them frequently. Again, I'm not advocating prolonged drug use of any kind, but it will help some. 4. I have never used DMSO but I occasionally use Flex-all which is like ice compared to another product I use called Capsaicin. It is used to fight arthritis pain and can be obtained over-the-counter for approximately < $10. It comes in two formats, a roll-on bottle like deodorant and a cream like Flex-all. It also comes in two strengths, . 25% and an HP . 75%. I use the HP (High Potency) . 75%. Capsaicin is made from red hot chile peppers, so you are catching my drift...I hope. I'm throwing out my warning and disclaimer's right now: This product is an INFERNO!!!! And if you have never used it before it will hurt. Like any other cream you must build a tolerance to it. I have used it exclusively for the past three years to fight tendinitis and hamstring injuries (pulls, tears, etc.) The first time I used the product I cried. And that's no exaggeration and I have an extremely high tolerance for pain. Let me also warn you that this product gets hotter the longer is stays on and if you sweat the heat intensifies even more. All in all, Capsaicin is no Joke! It's not for the meek, but it does work. If nothing else, the pain from the heat will take your mind off of your elbows....hahaha!!! 5. Wrap your elbows with a neoprene sleeve while training. This makes a big difference. It helps keep the joint warm which improves circulation to the surrounding tissues and muscles. 6. As far as grip-width goes on benches and squats...it's up to you. Whatever works. Louie Simmons states this pain usually comes from heavy squatting not from benching. There is no cure-all grip width that's gonna suit everybody. 7. And last but certainly not least....QUALITY SLEEP and QUALITY NUTRITION. Try to rest as much as possible on your days off and refrain from activities that stress those elbows like tennis, throwing of any kind, and golf. Quality protein is essential. Remember the function of a protein is to build and repair tissues such as hair, skin, nails, teeth, bone, and most importantly for us lifters, muscles. It only stands to reason that if our tendons and muscles need repair, sufficient quality protein can only help that cause. I hope these suggestions help. Stay healthy and stay strong, Matt Gary ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:53:45 -0000 From: Subject: Strength_List: Dianna Linden on Elbow Problems Hello all, I've noticed all the recent buzz re: elbow problems, particularly in the last issue, so I asked my colleague Dianna Linden, an elite-level soft-tissue therapist who has worked wonders on several of my athletes, to add her impressions (Dianna is not a subsecriber to this list). I hope her input is useful. Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:33:02 -0500 From: "Steven Dana" Subject: Strength_List: Sore Elbows Anyone with any advice for sore elbows (besides rest, I am four weeks out from a meet)? The pain began with heavy squatting and is now being felt during benches and tricep work. Anyone with any suggestions? never had this problem before. thanks. Hi Steve; You've gotten some good advice so far from a number of folks, lets see if I can add something useful to the quiver of tools now in your bag of tricks: It's hard to talk specifically to your sore elbow problem without knowing more about precisely where it is, better yet, without actually palpating the tissues for smutz, aka adhesions, which are often the culprit in inflamed tendons due to overuse in sport or micro trauma unnoticed and exercised upon until it's turned to macro trauma. Those are very common causes of pain from training. I'm guessing there's something like that involved in your sore elbows. Of course the best thing is to go and get an actual diagnosis from a sports doc with strength training knowledge so his/her diagnosis could be accompanied with good (as opposed to lame) advice for a quick recovery. Short of that, try these suggestions and see if you get a quick improvement. If not, go see a medical professional rather than let an acute condition become chronic. Try to get a recommendation from someone who trains whose judgement you trust. Wade's advice to ice it and stretch it and change your positioning on the bar is good. To that I would add, ice it for a minimum of 5 minutes, max. 15 min. every 1-11/2 hours until the inflammation cools down, up to 5 or so times per day, esp. for the first 2-3 days after the injury makes itself fully known. Continue to ice it, at least, after each workout while you still feel any discomfort. This is true for any injury in the gym, no matter how small. Ice will stop it in it's tracks and speed up the healing considerably. This could pertain to Skip Dallen's question about icing his knees as well. If you don't have the blue ice (Colpac or equivalent) which stays soft when cold and can conform to any body part, then frozen peas will do for irregular parts like knees and elbows better than a ziploc full of ice cubes which don't tend to make really good contact all over the area as you need the cold to do. There are small blue gel bags(Jack Frost) available for $5, good to have in your medicine bag, better still, freezer, for when you need them. Part of what makes ice so useful is what happens in the tissues when you take it off, so make sure you leave at least an hour between icings for the nutrients and proteins to rush in with the reflexive vasodilation which is occurring then. The tissues have had the inflammation and edema reduced by the ice and can more readily use the nutrients received then for repair. Icing for just 5 minutes is far more beneficial than doing nothing in promoting repair of damaged tissues. Stretching is usually not recommended for adhesions as a first order of rehab protocol, but in general, is an important aspect of your training regime. It should be done when the tissues are warm, after the strength training session is optimal. If you stretch tissues too much before you work them they are temporarily weakened by the stretching and therefore susceptible to tearing under load once again. Not a plan. Andy mentioned getting good results with his injury using glucosamine sulfate(hcl) and chondroitin sulfate. There are studies to support his and many other folks anecdotal positive response to these substances for enhancing the integrity and healing of connective tissue. Dr Steadman, who is a well known orthopedist/knee specialist in Vail (http://www.steadman-hawkins.com) recommends that his post surgical patients (at least a couple of whom I've known) use the brand called Cosamin DS which is more expensive than the health food varieties, I believe. It is a patented formulation which combines Glucosamine HCL(500mg), Chondroitin Sulfate(400mg) with Manganese Ascorbate(76mg) and the lab who holds the patent says that their studies show that particular combination enhances the assimilation into the tissues and the tensile strength of the assembled fibers. Others seem to have gotten positive results from the varieties found in Health food stores as well. The mfg. of Cosamin DS is Nutrimax Labs and can be reached at 800 925-5187 or nutramax@aol.com. The Arthritis Fdtn has published a public inf. memo on these substances, it is on their web site: http://www.arthritis.org/news/pimemos/ You would probably benefit from using the recommended dosage until it is healed and perhaps until the bottle is empty. Might be good to have it in your vitamin bin to use whenever you feel you have especially stressed a joint, or feel a little tug somewhere after a workout which bugs you a bit. It's always a good idea to ice those before they become full blown problems along with the glucosamine hit, which might just knock the problem out while it is still just a glitch. Derek suggests DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide). When it is sold in the health food stores, it says not for medicinal purposes. No FDA approval. Comes in 70% or 90% solutions. If you choose to use it, choose the 70% and cut it with something which you want to send into the inflamed area. I have used St. Johns Wort oil with it, which is supposed to be a topical anti inflammatory of the herbal variety on my own injuries. DMSO is reputed to both act as an anti-inflammatory and send whatever is on your skin with it or before it (so clean the area well first) deeper into the tissues. Thus the smell on your breath. Stuff seems to go right thru you. I have no inf on studies done on it, possible long term effects on your filter organs???. It is a solvent, by product of wood processing I believe. It can burn the skin or cause a rash on some folks which is why I recommended you dilute it with something. I've used mostly St Johns Wort oil with just a little DMSO on my own injuries, and not very often, only when it is interfering with my capacity to work or train, because it is too unknown to risk long term liver or kidney damage. Too bad there isn't more money funding studies on it, cause it does seem to speed up the recovery. Probably water and aspirin crushed and dissolved into it might work too, but you are definitely experimenting here. The only proponent of it I have heard of is Julian Whitaker, MD., and he recommends a lot of alternative remedies which conventional medicine consider unproved or downright quackery, so...... Whitaker swears it healed his inflamed knee almost instantly on his cross country bicycle tour. Anecdotal. If you've got a meet soon, that might be the motivation for you to try this unapproved and relatively unstudied substance. Didn't Veterinarians use it on race horses? Keith and Bob gave you specific suggestions re:your form and exercise choices for sore elbows. Rule of thumb: when injured, if it hurts, modify your position, exercise, intensity until you do not feel it at all or don't do the exercise which involves that part at all until it is healed. Forearms are involved in so many exercises that I could see why you might not want to back off entirely at this point. Just don't train thru any pain in that location, you would definitely be re-injuring it every time you do. Consider that an exercise which does not stress one persons elbow might cause pain in another, so try the suggestions, but let your own pain be your red light and experiment with what ever will allow you to train the desired body part, pain free. Generally, if it is medial or lateral epicondylitis, aka golfer's or tennis elbow, as a massage therapist, I use deep transverse friction massage at the site of the lesion to roust the adhesions out of there, ice it, ask my clients to continue the icing, and instruct them to do very light wrist extension, flexion strengtheners depending on which muscles, tendons are involved in the inflammation. After specific gentle strengthening, combined with the cross fiber friction, the pain should be considerably reduced right away and soon gone. Then one can resume the sport which caused the overuse or trauma at the level done previous to the injury with those parts specifically strengthened to be able to now handle that load. The exercise form and choice might need to be altered to prevent recurrence, as well. A Physical Therapist might use ultra sound with or without anti inflammatory gels to enhance recovery and perhaps some electrical stimulation as well as ice and exercise rehab. You can try the deep transverse friction massage yourself by wrapping an ice cube with a paper towel over 1/2 of it so you can hold it without freezing your fingers. Place it exactly on the painful spot, hold it until it quits aching and is numb, then rub it to and fro across the fibers of the tendon, moving the skin along with the underlying tissues for 60 seconds, back and forth for as long as you can stand, cause this will hurt if you're doin it right. On a 10 scale of painfulness, don't take it above 8. 5-8 is probably a reasonable level of intensity for the first session. It gets less painful and the area is usually smaller where it is painful, as it improves. If you do 4 sets of 15 reps across the spot that should do it for the first session. In 2 or 3 days you can repeat the treatment. 2 minutes on any one spot is the max I have asked a client to endure. It is not to be done every day because the tissues are being purposefully irritated and adhesions broken up, so they need recovery time. This protocol was developed by the English Orthopedist, James Cyriax and, in my experience, is very effective in speeding up recovery of tendonitis. It can be applied to elbows, knees, shoulders, ankles, groins, plantar fascia, Achilles, wrists, fingers, but you need to know which way the muscles go, so your mechanical movements are across the fibers. Wrists must be worked on a stretch because they are sheathed tendons. The Achilles is partially sheathed so must be worked on a stretch as well. Go for the painful spot, rub across it with some pressure taking the stroke into the underlying tissues with the ice cube. The second treatment should be much less sensitive so you can work on it for as long as 2 minutes. Follow it with a general icing for 5-15min. Do it after your workout. Train exercises which involve the forearms very lightly, if at all, the next day. Instead, do leg presses or calf raises, seated chest press on Cybex or similar machine or whatever you can which doesn't stress those tendons. Then on the following day do forearm curls or extensions in the 10-15 rep range(x3), ie with very light weights, as long as there is no pain in the action, and after you complete your workout, apply the deep transverse friction massage again, ice. If you can use NSAID anti inflammatories with out negative side effects, by all means, along with your treatment, go for it. Usually an acute lesion is worked out within 3 to 6 treatments performed twice a week, sometimes one will knock it out if it is fresh and doesn't involve too much tissue and the athlete does not go out and re injure it. Eat plenty of protein and supplement with the glucosamine, probably some anti-oxidants. What else? Did I leave something out? If so, can't think what it would be. This was long. Hope this helps. Good luck in healing it completely before your meet. Let us know how you do. Respectfully, Di Dianna Linden diannal@netVIP.com Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 04:35:53 EST From: Mcsiff@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: BICEPS & SORENESS My response to a comment on another user group may be of interest to some readers. Someone wrote: <> ***Post-exercise soreness does not relate at all to effectiveness of any exercise, yet this "urban legend" (or should we say, "gym legend"?) still seems to reign supreme in the bodybuilding world. Research shows that soreness relates more to factors such as overtraining and unfamiliarity of the body with a given exercise or manner of exercise, than training success. Many top weightlifters, powerlifters and bodybuilders train extremely hard and generally do not suffer from post-exercise soreness, so don't take that "no pain, no gain" tale seriously. It is "no pain of effort, no gain" that counts, not pain of muscle damage that counts. Sure, strenuous resistance training can produce damage of muscle fibrils and cells, but it has never been proved that this is a necessary and sufficient condition for muscle hypertrophy and strength increase. If this were true, it would mean that all serious athletes are perpetually in a state of constant muscle damage and it is illogical that biological adaptation should rely solely on a destructive mechanism like this. In an attempt to refute the above deduction, someone might quote research that the bones, for instance, are constantly being broken down and rebuilt by specific chemical processes, thereby proving that destruction and construction, analysis and synthesis are the ways in which adaptation always occurs. They would be perfectly correct, but they would be ignoring the fact that this type of "adaptive reconstruction" (the Russian term used in "Supertraining") is not accompanied by pain. Adaptation, as opposed to repair, does not involve tissue damage and pain - it depends on painless reconstruction and modification of muscle cells via communication of the coding mechanisms inside the cell and the cell membrane. For example, the work of Goldspink shows that muscle genes are regulated largely by mechanical stimulation, not mechanical damage (The brains behind the brawn "New Scientist" 1 Aug 1992: 28-33). The marked muscle soreness that a newcomer to a training novel regime experiences is called DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness), which peaks approximately 48 hours after novel exercise and has nothing to do with the training value of the exercise. At best, it generally is a physiological indicator that you did too much of something new for too long at a given stage of training, especially if the "negative" part of the movement was deliberately slowed down or accentuated by powerful plyometric action. One can develop great biceps without post-exercise pain or soreness - you are sore solely because a given routine is new to your muscular system. Once you adapt to it, then that soreness will disappear and you will have to do something more novel to provoke more soreness. Just train in well planned cycles using a variety and sequence of arm flexor (not just the biceps) exercises with suitable loads and volumes, plus sufficient eccentric action and you will make excellent upper arm muscle gains. Don't forget that even some apparently unlikely exercises, such as full range bench pressing, can help to develop your biceps, since these muscles also cross the shoulder joint and participate to a significant degree in the earlier stages of benching. Early gains with a novel exercise routine, of course, will slow down, as we all know, so that is why you will have to change your routine to suit your individual response at a given stage in your training. Mel Siff Subject: Re: MUSCLE SORENESS From: Mcsiff@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:07:00 -0800 On 11/16/99, "Shmuel Blitz" wrote: << Correct me if I am wrong. If I am not sore, I did not have a good workout. When you talk about pros who don't get sore, isn't the reason because they are on the juice. Isn't one of the purposes of some steroids to take your body to a point where you don't feel the fatigue, and bring you past that point. >> ***Research has been done on subjects who are drug-assisted and drug-free and the existence of post-exercise soreness has never been proved to be prerequisite for increasing hypertrophy or strength. Even before steroids were used, we were aware of this fact. << Maybe us drug-free amateurs don't know, but isn't the small microscopic tears in the muscle, that when they heal, causes growth. Aren't those microscopic tears what causes the next day of pain? >> ***As has been pointed out before, the vast majority of competitive athletes in any strength sports do not suffer from significant muscle soreness after training. The concept of tissue microrupture is one of several theories concerning the adaptation to physical stress, but has never been singled out as the only mechanism involved. The post-exercise pain which you are probably referring to is known as DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness) and occurs predominantly in individuals who have overtrained (especially in eccentric activity) or been exposed to new exercises to which the body has not adapted. This type of soreness does not routinely take place in well-adapted athletes using a familiar and appropriately designed training regime. Dr Mel C Siff Denver, USA mcsiff@aol.com Subject: Re: MUSCLE SORENESS From: Mcsiff@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:07:38 -0800 On 11/16/99, Lynne Pitts wrote: << My .02: I've been training hard and consistently for going on 20 years; I've been sore after 95% of my workouts. This includes higher rep, body-building phases and low rep, high % of RM powerlifting phases (I'm a nationally ranked powerlifter with a double bodyweight bench - not bad for a "girl"). Maybe this is a gender issue? Women get more DOMS than men? >> ***Some of my colleagues in exercise physiology have encountered several well-conditioned athletes in different sports who are uncomfortably sore after most of their training sessions, but they have never been able to satisfactorily explain why this may be so. No studies have shown that it is a gender issue. We also have to distinguish between true DOMS (Delayed Soreness) and immediate post-exercise stiffness, fatigue and mild soreness, which dissipates quite rapidly after a hot bath and some short rest. Which sort of soreness are you referring to? And if you had to give us a Perceived Rating (out of a maximum of 10) of Soreness soon after training, what value would you estimate for your typical training session? Mel Siff Dr Mel C Siff Denver, USA mcsiff@aol.com Subject: Re: MUSCLE SORENESS From: paul@i2.to Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:08:11 -0800 On Sat, 13 November 1999, Mcsiff@aol.com wrote: > > During all of those years of training, the major proportion of our training > has been at a level of above 85% of1RM for multiple joint exercises using > large muscle groups, with 1RMs regularly being used. > > On the basis of the 'Scorpina' scale above, our 'not sore' status means > that we have been totally wasting our time for all of our years of > competitive lifting. > > Apparently the myth of "no pain, no gain" still reigns supreme in some > quarters! I've noticed that nearly everyone I know who is engaged in powerlifting does not get sore or experience overtraing despite the fact they some of them train the same body part as much as 3-4 times per week! Maybe this has to do with their use of high weight and reps in the 1-3 range? I've experienced something similar. In order to increase strength in my curls, I spent a few weeks keeping my reps below 5 and my weight correspondingly high. The post-workout soreness was less and I was able to work my arms again after only 3 days. Usually it takes 5 days for all soreness to dissappear, after doing 3 sets in the 8-12 rep range. Paul Subject: Re: MUSCLE SORENESS From: "Eric Burkhardt" Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 07:06:15 -0800 Lynne Pitts wrote... >> My .02: I've been training hard and consistently for going on 20 years; I've been sore after 95% of my workouts. This includes higher rep, body-building phases and low rep, high % of RM powerlifting phases (I'm a nationally ranked powerlifter with a double bodyweight bench - not bad for a "girl"). Maybe this is a gender issue? Women get more DOMS than men? << Lynne, the reason you're getting sore is probably related to your training frequency. There is such an incredible discrepancy between Olympic style lifters (OLers) and powerlifters (PLers) when it comes to training frequency. Many serious OLers train 6 days/wk with each workout including squats. It is not uncommon during some phases of training for an OLer to exceed 90% in the squatting movements 3 or 4 time in the same week. On the other hand, I have heard of PL programs that are based on the theory that LONG recovery time is necessary; for example squatting only once a week and deadlifting twice a month. It would be interesting for Lynne to share with us how frequently she trains. Speaking from personal experience, when I am in good shape and training 5 - 6 days/wk, I experience very little if any muscle soreness. I'll usually have some joint pain and am pretty tired, but no DOMS. Eric