From fadden@netcom.com Fri Jan 9 22:12:32 PST 1998 In article <34B506A5.48AA1546@gwi.net>, Doug Delorge wrote: >David Mallarme wrote: >> Have you tried to sleep on your side ? :-) >> >Yes, and the natural inclination is to roll over once I've fallen >asleep. I'm trying to force myself to keep my arm down to >my side. That helps a little. Advice from a pamphlet I got after screwing up my rotator cuff: sleep in a t-shirt, but with the messed-up arm inside the shirt rather than sticking out the hole. The pamphlet also has various exercises to do with inner tubes and dumbbells. My personal favorite is one where you hold a dumbbell in each hand while standing, with your palms *out*. You bring them up to horizontal, keeping your arms straight and your thumbs pointed *down*. I got pain in my elbows trying to lift weights straight out in front, but this exercise hasn't given me any problems. With the thumbs down, your elbow isn't being pulled sideways or hyperextending. I can do sets of ten with 20 lbs right now, which isn't bad considering my relative pencil-neckedness. :-) I've noticed when doing incline bench on a machine that there's a point near the top where my shoulder seems unhappy. It feels just fine with light or moderate weight, but with heavy weight I feel it right away, and not in a good way. If you're not doing inclines, try a few sets, building up the weight, and see if you feel something bad. If so, it seems to me that doing light sets to build up the unhappy muscle will help these problems, as will some stretches. (Simple one to try: lie on a bench with your arm making two 90-degree angles, like you were being sworn in before taking the stand in court. Put a 2.5 or 5lb weight in your hand. Relax. Let the weight pull your arm down for 15-20 seconds. Do the same thing with your arm stretched out straight over your head, as if you were trying to touch the ceiling.) FWIW, I've screwed up my rotator cuff three times now: - doing military press improperly; - doing sudden, stressful movements while stick-fighting; and - doing heavy bench press with a very wide grip. The first and last are documented in some of the stuff I've read over the past couple of days. The middle one just needed more strength and flexibility training. -- Send mail to fadden@netcom.com (Andy McFadden) Fight Internet Spam - http://spam.abuse.net/spam/ & news.admin.net-abuse.email Try some spammed toll-free numbers from http://www.clark.net/pub/kfl/toll.html Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 16:10:18 -0300 From: "Denilson P. da Costa" Subject: Bench bar groove I have long arms, so the first tips Ive learned about getting the best leverages for bypassing my anatomical make up was to use a "wide grip" and following "pressing the bar in an arch, from the chest up back to your face". Later on, Ive incorported a very deep back arch ( I have good spine flexibility) together with sinking my feets under my body on the bench. These tips greatly improved my bench over the last years, but I just still could not feel the bench as a natural movment. Something that really intrigued me was hearing from EVERY good bencher about how he uses his lats and back mucles to drive the weights out of the chest. Something I could never get the right feel despite lifting for some years. I also remember about someone saying to avoid deep back arches as it will not allow full use of back muscles for driving weight up ( I guess Jeff Magruder or Rick Weil ). Yesterday, after experimenting with a few Louie Simmons tips sent to me gently by Mike Remple, I had a very different workout... Basically Louie was critizing all the little tricks I have been using with partial sucess these years. "Wide grips arent mandatory, how can someone as Anthony Clark bench heavy with such close grip ? A closer grip will alow better use of back muscles"... "Push the bar in a STRAIGHT line, as its still the shorter distance to travel. Your tricep may work extra hard but you see a lot of pec injuries , seldom tricep injuries"... "Dont put your feet under your body for achieveing a maximum arch. Doing that will diminish leg drive"... I just couldnt believe, I have been experimenting a variety of grips these years, and proved my self the wider the better. After using these tricks in just ONE WORKOUT I could bench a weight that was feeling heavy FAR EASIER AND FASTER. I felt my descend was too slow with the tilted path, by using a straight descend, I could use a lot more of myotatic reflex and not spend so much energy resisting the weights down, which I did so as to stay in my "tilted groove". My grip was index finger over ring. I could do this workout with my little fingers at the ring.... QUESTION : Could be the case of overtraining in the wide grip ( I only bench this grip for years, except for experimenting with closer grips without sucess ) or are these tips really great ???????????? What you think ? Denilson Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:46:49 +0000 From: Tom Chantler Subject: Re: Bench grip In response to both Denilson and Bob's comments on altering their grip for the bench press, I think that the key word is ALTERING. I have recently done precisely the same as Denilson (in fact my grip changed EXACTLY as his did) and I have noticed some very good gains in a matter of a few weeks (better than in the last several months)... >My grip was index finger over ring. I could do this workout with my >little >fingers at the ring.... But then Bob says pretty much the exact opposite... >My grip has gone fron third finger on the ring to index finger on the >ring >and I have been able to press more than I thought possible and with >less >elbow pain. >In June my raw max was 125 Kg and yesterday I did 122.5 x 5. >My speed work seems faster than before as well. It seems to me that to vary one's grip as and when one gets into a rut is the best bet. But then, I'm very new to the sport and maybe I'm just experiencing the rapid improvement that affects all "newbies". I would also say that the advice about pressing the bar in a straight line seems logical from a mechanical point of view (but I expect someone will tell me how I'm wrong and start quoting medical data about angles of muscle insertions, etc) and it seems to work for me. Cheers, Tom Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:44:12 -0600 From: tim eichinger Subject: Re: Bench grip back arch is not just about getting a shorter distance for the bar to travel it is mainly about getting more back into the lift. how do you arch your back? by tensing the muscles of the back. it is more static assistance in that it gives you a solid base to push from. you know the old saying for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. if your base of pushing is not tight and strong ,the energy that is pushing against the bar gets absorbed by your soft, weak back. anthony clark does not use a close grip! look at him on video he has his pinkie on the ring which is like the index finger for a conventional bencher. the reason a straight line is more efficient is because it keeps your shoulder tight and allows for rotation in the socket. when you bench your shoulder should rotate either in [drive your elbows together as the bar ascends] or out [drive the elbows away from each other on the ascent]. this makes the lockout much easier as the shoulder stays in the lift longer and the triceps are not left alone at the top. close grip benchers keep their elbows in as the bar travels lower on the chest[ toward the feet. wide grip benchers will have their elbows out further and the bar will be higher on the chest[toward the head] wide grip without a back arch leaves the elbows out further and therefore involves all pec at the bottom. with a back arch the bar is touched lower on the chest and involves the shoulders more at the bottom. thumbless grippers should always drive the elbows in. look at your hands on the bar. how much stress will you put on your elbows by trying to rotate your elbows out with your hands facing in? i actually grip tight with my index and leave my pinkie almost entirely off the bar. look at a.c. he grips the bar across his hand like a golf club. this allows him to rotate his elbows in quickly . that is why i supinate my hands to rotate my elbows more quickly. now i am not talking about throwing them out excessively. if you saw me bench you wouldn't recognize it hardly. many people think by throwing the elbows the bar moves better. it must be part of the ascent. kinda like a punch. as you can see i like to bench. 500 is right around the corner. tim eichinger Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:18:56 -0300 From: "Denilson P. da Costa" Subject: En: Sticking Point in the Bench... >I've only been powerlifting for about 5 months, and I'm having a blast! >I'm hoping someone out here can give me a hand. I'm having a hard time >overcoming my sticking point in the bench. Lockout is never a problem. >When doing rack work, I can press about 30lbs more than my 1RM with the >pins set about 4 inches off my chest. What can I do to strengthen this >portion of my bench? Exercises which break the concentric/eccentric chain are great to developing quick starting strenght. Having an all out explosive start is the most effective way to avoid sticking points. If you can genetrate enough acceleration, its very likely momentum will take care of that stick point. Go to Hatfield home page and study Compensatory Acceleration Training look for an article called "Rocket Science: Launching a pay load takes more than one G force". C.A.T. is the most important factor. As for breaking the CONC/ECC chain, conventional competitive pause style bench by itself will help. Isometrics at your chest; pressing a bar for singles out of pins at chest level ( only the concentric phase is done ); and floor presses ( the bar will start just 3 to 4 inches out of chest ). Denilson Costa Good lifting !!! Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:19:09 -0300 From: "Denilson P. da Costa" Subject: LAT X BACK DURING BENCH GROOVE >back arch is not just about getting a shorter distance for the bar to >travel it is mainly about getting more back into the lift. how do oyu >arch your back? by tensing the muscles of the back. it is more static >assistance in that it gives you a solid base to push from. I guess some cofusion exists because lifters often use the terms "lats" and "back muscles" interchanbly ( myself included ). The deeper you arch, the closely your bench will feel like a decline press, ( the more you decline the angle, more "lats" are brought into play as you begin to change from pure horizontal shoulder adduction, to diagonal and could in a extreme FIGURATIVE example achieve maximum lat recruitment by benching almost upside down , that is steep decline, in which one would do an almost pure shoulder adduction ). I believe the strong base you were talking about can be achieved despite using or not a back arch ( and surely can be done as an adjunct to the back arch, Ive been doing that ). That is to contract your rombhoids and trapezium 3 - 4 so as to adduct the scapulae. This will lift your ribcage up and cause your arms to lower for a shorter distance too. This kind of movment Louie called shrugging on the bench, and said to be of great importance for achieving a solid base ( just as you said ). But he also said it to be a lot more important than a back arch and that some lifters arch their backs but forget to drag/shrug scapulae to form that strong base, which would prevent so the use of "back muscles". This use of "back muscles" as opposed to "lat" muscles is the main reason for Hatfield developing his special bench apparatus. The "ideal" benching movment should use a "shrugging in" of scapulae during or before descend ( which powerlifters do for the above mentioned reasons ) and a "flare out" during ascent. Most of the greatest benchers will already shrug in as adjusting their backs over the bench before taking the bar off racks, but the "flare out" ( which I suppose is the "back" action mentioned may be misnamed as "lat" action ) seens to be a difficult trick to learn, specially because your back is tucked against a static bench with a ton of weight over your arms. Hatfield bench was developed to allow free scapula movment during your reps, so as to save your shoulder joints. The scapulae will rest over mobile shoulder pads, allowing in and out movment during ascent and descent. This is the kind of "back" movment Im trying to incorporate in my training, those Louie techniques I described in my last post are making it possible. I have a bodybuiding friend who rarely reads anything, he has a very strong bench, and I observed he used just an mild arch and that his shoulders, back and lats muscles were always shrugging in and flaring out. At that time I couldnt figure what he was doing, not could him explain it to me. I remember also when he tried to "cross train" powerlifting, we put him into a full back arch... he couldnt bench as much, felt very unconfortable all around, and that "strange shrugging/flaring motion would stop"... Years later ( now ! ) I believe I can figure what was happening, due to Louie Simmons and Hatfield ideas. >anthony clark does not use a close grip! look at him on video he has his >pinkie on the ring which is like the index finger for a conventional >bencher. I have a copy of 1989 Budweiser Hawai Record breakers, and he was using a very close grip, almost shoulder width ( as a close grip bench press done for triceps ). At that time he wasnt still using his "reverse grip" style. The article Ive read from Louie is about that time. Today I believe ( just believe ) Anthony made the change because a wide REVERSE grip will acomplish the same as the close grip, with the advantage of doing so over SHORTER distance. I guess his original choice for close grips was to take adavntage of those enormeous triceps and back. Ive done Reverse grip benches for assistance work ( Im IPF, and CANT compete using this grip ), and it feels something like close benches despite my pinkie at the ring, as you said ), that is heavy delt, tricep and BACK work. ( see above for 2 possible definitions of back work during benches ). When I say BACK work Im refering to the tight feel you get at mid back while using these grips, and so the greater flare out you can possibly use . >close grip benchers keep their elbows in as the bar travels lower on the >chest[ toward the feet]. >wide grip benchers will have their elbows out further and the bar will >be higher on the chest[toward the head] Right, and I believe another technique error of mine was to spot too low on chest while using a wide grip, I believe that was causing me to press in a arch. Good observation. >thumbless grippers should always drive the elbows in. look at your hands >on the bar. how much stress will you put on your elbows by trying to >rotate your elbows out with your hands facing in? I guess youre saying your hands should be positioned in the same direction youre going to flare your elbows: Flare out ( thumbs around bar, hands in slightly diagonal facing outward slighly. - diagonal out = medial umerus rotation ) Flare in ( Thums off bar , hands in slightly diagonal too, but facing inward slightly. - diagonal in = lateral umerus rotation ) Is this what you was refering to ? ( ? ) >. that is why i supinate my >hands .to rotate my elbows more quickly. now i am not talking about >throwing them out excessively. if you saw me bench you wouldnt recognize >it hardly. many people think by throwing the elbows the bar moves >better. it must be part of the ascent. kinda like a punch. >as you can see i like to bench. I suppose you are using a reverse grip like Anthony does actually. So I guess you are refering to rotating elbows in during ascent, not out . ( ? ) >500 is right around the corner. tim eichinger SURE ! I wish you the best ! Good lifting Denilson Costa - Brasil Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 08:48:28 -0700 From: "Rigby, Patrick" Subject: Bench Training Along with the different issues on grip width and straight line pressing, I think that one of the most important things to a big bench is foot placement. I see to many people fail on getting a big bench because of poor foot placement. I am not that up on the Louie Simmon training regarding foot placement, but I like to be able to push with my feet and transfer the power to my bench. If the USAPL would allow me to have my feet under the bench ( I would have to be on my toes, not a flat foot) I would because I can really transfer the power and it gives me a stable base. How about the rest of you? What type of foot placement do you recommend and use. Going to hit 500lbs this year at 275 lifetime drug free. Patrick Rigby prigby@ccs.lmco.com Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:52:03 -0600 From: tim eichinger Subject: more benching actually i am a conventional wide grip bencher. best lift is 457.5 in august of 97. much stronger now. shrugging needs to be carefully defined. you should shrug down, keeping neck long, not up toward your ears. i agree the scapula abduction is the most well kept secret. many people do not know how to use it and back arch keeping the stress on the low back instead of the upper and mid back. i am not sure i agree with the flaring however or may just be interperting it incorrectly. you are not saying to change your back flexing from the most muscular type of flex to a lat spread are you? [sorry about the body building analogy.] my foot placement is fairly close but what i stress is driving with my legs thru my shoulders. i need alot of chalk on my back or i will slide off teh bench. also if my feet slip i am done. tim eichinger Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:06:57 -0300 From: "Denilson P. da Costa" Subject: LAT X BACK DURING BENCH GROOVE Tim wrote: >shrugging need sto be carefully defined. you should shrug down, keeping >neck long, not up toward your ears. Altought some people bench heavy weights that way, NOT ME, I agree with you. >i agree the scapula abduction is the most well kept secret. many people >do not know how to use it and back arch keeping the stress on the low >back instead of the upper and mid back. Sure ! Keith ,this refers to squeezing shoulder blades tightly ( as the end position of a cable row ) and keeping it that way during descend. The long neck refers to keeping shoulder girdle ( with already "shrugged in shoulder blades") as down to hips as possible, it also makes the arch easier and deeper for those who wants to use it... But Tim, just a minor question: Bringing scapulae into each other is adduction or abduction ? >i am not sure i agree with the flaring however or may just be >interperting it incorrectly. you are not saying to change your back >flexing from the most muscular type of flex to a lat spread are you? >[sorry about the body building analogy.] Sort of it, and excelent analogy !!! I SUPPOSE this sort of "lat spread" (flaring !) is what some benchers refer to "using the lats to drive" weights off your chest ( as opposed to the natural lat use which will occur anyway from a deep arch, decline press like position ). Im not sure about what muscles are responsible for doing that, but I guess its called "lat " drive because you get from a "most muscular back pose" to sort of a "lat spread". (Patrick Rigby asked about feet placement): Im stil working into it, but the only way I could just begun to feel it was by stop pressing the bar over face, so using a straight press; letting my feet rest confortably in front of the bench instead of under the bench (which I was doing to achieve a super deep arch ). This way, my LEG drive is stronger too and straight up, while under the bench is weaker and tends to drive weights back over face. I I believe with this trick ( flare in - out ) you can add a LAT drive to the LEG drive. There is also NECK drive, but this is another story... denislson Subject: Re: Dumbells getting too heavy From: zeus!mike@uunet.uu.net (Mike McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:10:13 -0800 I use the following for doing decline and flat bench dumbell presses. I find it pretty easy even with 130's. 1. stand in front of the bench 2. swing the dumbell to the front so that one end is resting on the front of your thigh. 3. sit down on the bench and the dumbell should be standing vertically on your thigh. 4. lean forward until your chest is touching the top of the dumbell. 5. hold the dumbell tight to your chest and lie back. the dumbells should now be completely on your chest. 6. let the dumbells drop into the start position and then have at it. Mike McL. Subject: Re: Bench Press Angles/Creatine From: FlexWriter Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:01:31 -0800 In a message dated 1/23/98 9:01:16 AM, you wrote: > What is the difference between a flat bench press, incline press and a >decline > press/ I know the benches are different but how do they work the muscles > differently? Also, What time is the best time to take creatine? Before the > workout, after?? I don't know. You'll hear conflicting opinions on this -- as well as on every other belief in weight training. Some experts claim that since the entire pectoral mass has a common origination point and insertion point, it's impossible to isolate one part of the pec by varying the angle of the bench. Other people -- primarily "in the trenches" trainees who eschew theory for practical experience, disagree. My experience is this: Years of flat benches developed my middle and lower pecs, but left me with a hollow where my upper pecs should've proudly bulged. A couple of years of specializing on incline barbell benches, incline dumbell benches, and the occasional incline flye brought my upper pecs up to speed. I haven't done flat benches in years, yet my middle/lower pecs have increased in size. For best results from inclines, try to find a bench set at a 30-35 degree angle; the 45 degree angle benches commonly found put too much emphasis on the deltoids. People generally find that they're strongest on declines. second-strongest on flat benches, and weakest on inclines. I've probably done declines twice in my life because I don't need any more lower pec development and because declines hurt my shoulders. FlexWriter Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 02:30:05 -0000 From: Carl Moore > That reminds me, I've got something to say..... > > WHAT THE HELL IS THE AMERICAN BENCH PRESS FASCINATION!?!?! > > It's beginning to really piss me off. My friends always ask me stupid > shit like > "so what're you putting up?" "what can you lift now" > > I know what they're asking but I won't satisfty their answer to a > question of that nature. > So I say "I can deadlift 405 lbs." But it's not just my friends. It's > everyone in America > > I think it may be all about pec size. I think it MAY be PERCIEVED by the > masses that men with muscular pecs are the equivalent to women with large > breasts. I'm not sure what it is but I'm getting sick of it. > > Caleb Bacon > bacos@juno.com > http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/5735/bacon I think this is a good topic. Checked out the website and liked it, Caleb. I too wish that people would get off of the fascination with the bench. Ever talk to somebody who has never lifted? Seems like they know the bench but squat is something they don't know. Deadlifts or squats have more of a practical purpose in life than the bench. I don't think the size of the pecs has to do with it as so much the education of the general population about different exercises. Think about this, what is the most basic movement a person acts out when someone says, "So do you lift weights or something.", the pushing motion away from the body mimiking the bench movement. So the bench has become the so called ultimate test of strength in people's mind. That is my experience anyway. Carl. Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:20:13 -0000 From: Daron Burrows Subject: "American Bench Press Fascination" I thought Caleb's point about this was quite relevant, for I have an interesting observation based on the training activites of the hundreds of American students (visiting and resident) who have come to train at our university gym. Without exception, they sprint to the bench and base their whole session around this. A very small percentage of them have been known to attempt a set or two of very half-assed squats, but this usually does not halt their progress to an excess of biceps training. Now, we have all had the opportunity to witness the dubious training routines of neophytes in the gym. However, we are constantly struck by how clearly the national divide is manifest in the choice of exercises. Now, the fact that I am a completely useless bench presser probably makes me overly sensitive to this, but the statistical fact remains that the vast majority of our American clientele primarily has the desire to bench (preferably for bounced-and-bridged singles with assistance) - other activity generally involves talking very loudly about American football (or, in some cases, the vicissitudes of the American political system), six-packs, Met-RX and creatine. Hence our little sample of students from all over the USA tends to support what Caleb and Bob said about an obsession with bench pressing - we have an equal percentage of English geeks, but ours tend to do a greater variety of exercises. On a related note, when one of our Americans asks what you can lift, the enquiry invariably concerns the bench, yet when English ask, they usually mean some half-watched Olympic lift from television. The funny thing is that no matter how well you explain what a deadlift is, complete with a graphic demonstration (even including a mimed mixed gip), they ALWAYS chime in, with great self-satisfaction, "Oh yes, I know that - I've seen it on TV", and thereupon perform some charade of a clean-and-jerk (usually with so-amusing noises and facial contortions). I have learned not even to bother trying to explain. By the way, it is not my intention to offend the American majority on this list, for my comments describe those annoying recreational trainers who exist everywhere, usually popping up to walk in front of the squat rack as you are taking out 600 lb. I just thought our experience here might provide an interesting insight into the logistics of the cultural divide. DARON Daron Burrows, Trinity College, Oxford University. trin0125@sable.ox.ac.uk Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:28:03 -0600 From: tim eichinger Subject: Reverse Grip Bench Pressing > > Since the topic of discussion seems to be the bench, I have to > questions to ask. I have been doing reverse grip benches instead of a > light bench day. I bench on Monday's and then do reverse > grips/shoulders/arms on Thursday. I have just started doing them for > about 1 month and I think that I like them. I started doing them in > place of close grip benches. Is this a bad idea? I am going to try and > do both reverse grips and close grips tonight and see how I feel. Have > any of you big benchers out there used reverse grips successfully or > should I just stick to close grips? > > Pat Rigby > Prigby@ccs.lmco.com it kind of depends on how you do them. if you are doing them with a moderate grip and gripping the bar tightly with the whole hand it puts alot of stress on the tri's and not much weight can be used. if you do them with a wide grip using a golfers grip across the hand ala A.C. it becomes more of a shoulder exercise even though you will feel it in the tri's. the advantage to doing them the second way is that a great deal more weight can be used. the exercise also uses an internal rotation of the shoulders. you drive the elbows in together as you ascend. i like the exercise and use it occasionally as a break on my light day. i think it gives your front delts a rest and puts the bar in a lower groove where it hits the chest. all in all a good exercise that you could do by itself or with close grips. tim eichinger Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:29:52 -0600 From: tim eichinger Subject: MM2K Bench Workout, and off the chest problems. > > I am currently using the MM2K Bench workout. I just hit the sixth week > of the program (workout #11) and after pretty good initial progress, I'm > starting to see my numbers actually decrease! > > During the prior workouts, I've had tons of energy, and had no problems > making the given weights/reps. Seemingly all at once, I'm having > problems with any sets that consist of more than 4 or 5 reps, even with > weights that were previously do-able. I'm even seeing decreases in my > assistance work (reverse-grip, dumbell press). I've tried repeating > workouts, even going back one or two, and I'm even having trouble with > those! > > I remember seeing a post not too long ago concerning overtraining using > this workout. Where can I find another bench program? I workout in my > basement (power rack, bench, couple racks of dumbells, 3 or 4 barbells, > etc). Is there a good basic program out there designed to build a good > foundation of power in the bench? > > Another question I posted a few weeks ago concerned increasing power > right off the chest. Getting the weight off my chest is my weakspot, > and if anyone can let me know how to work it, I'd greatly appreciate > it. Once I get the bar about 4 inches off my chest, the rest is cake. > > Bill bill, it is not unusual at all when you are using a generic workout that you run into problems. hell it happens with customized workouts. that is why it is imperative for all lifters to become instinctive to know when you are overworking or under working. it sounds to me like you are overworking. i would suggest that rather than looking for a new workout adjust this one since it seems like it has been partially successful. cut down in areas that you didn't think were effective- perhaps the rep scheme doesn't fit you well. also eat a lot of food. you may get a little fatter but i will guarantee you that if you gain 10 pounds your bench will go up 20. this is why it takes so long for people to become succesful we all had to experiment thru trial and error. as far as weakness off the chest i suffer from the same problem. i tried many things including more chest work, pauses on my downsets and none of them seemed to work. i finally came to the conclusion that i was not weak off the chest just strong at the midpoint. i don't know if that is a rationalization but i like to look at things positively. good luck. tim eichinger Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:39:09 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Legal Bench Press Grip? ------------------------------------------- SkipDallen wrote, >As a non-competitor, yet, I have a stupid question: how wide is a legal bench >press grip? Can any of my hand be outside the outer ring? Or can my in index >finger be on the ring (with a portion of my hand inside the ring)? > There are no stupid questions skip. Basically as long as some part of your hand is covering that ring you are legal. I just barely put my index finger on the ring. Bench Press (Edited to performance rules only) 2. The lifter must lie on his back with head, shoulders and buttocks in contact with the flat bench surface. His hands must grip the bar with a "thumbs around" grip, thus locking the bar safely in the palms of the hands. His shoes must be flat on the floor. This position shall be maintained throughout the attempt. 6. The spacing of the hands shall not exceed 81 cm measured between the forefingers. The use of a reverse grip is forbidden. 7. After removing the bar from the racks or receiving it from the spotter/loaders, the lifter shall wait with elbows locked for the Chief Referee's signal. The signal shall be given as soon as the lifter is motionless and the bar properly positioned. 9. After receiving the signal, the lifter must lower the bar to the chest, hold it motionless on the chest with a definite and visible pause and then press upwards with an even extension of the arms to arms length. When held motionless in this position the audible command "rack" is given. For complete rules go to http://www.ipf.com/part4.htm From kgrovesNOSPAM@gte.net Mon Mar 16 21:57:42 PST 1998 Rajesh Kumar wrote in article <3505A94B.41C6@ichips.intel.com>... > I was getting some shoulder tendinitis with barbell bench press so I > checked around about proper form. Some guy ( power factory ?) has good > advice about getting the shoulders back and getting the bar halfway up > the chest. Both of these seem to help. It also mentioned something about > getting the weight up in an ARC instead of straight up. Can some one be > more specific. Are you supposed to get an arc first going towards your > legs or towards your head. I agree that either of these feels more > natural than straight up but which is the the preferred one among gurus > here to reduce shoulder stress. > > Rajesh. > The arc should follow a smooth pattern from just above the eyes, down to the nipples (some people even go further down the chest) and back up to a position above the eyes. -- Karl Core "It ain't rocket science, son. Just keep piling it on till you can't lift any more." Krista Scott wanna know why nobody on MFW likes Bill Phillips? Go here: < http://mfw.tico.com/buttplug.cfm > Contact me on the ICQ network: 9096282 AOL Instant Messenger Users, my SN is "RecoilRecs" From kgrovesNOSPAM@gte.net Mon Mar 16 21:58:20 PST 1998 Sandeep De wrote in article <350b05d7.27877524@news.supernews.com>... > On 14 Mar 1998 21:22:26 GMT, "Karl Core" > wrote: > > >The arc should follow a smooth pattern from just above the eyes, down to > >the nipples (some people even go further down the chest) and back up to a > >position above the eyes. > > While I don't doubt for a second that this is a safe technique for the > majority of lifters, I question the stress that this "arc" places on > the acromioclavicular process, etc. of the shoulder joint. As the bar > travels higher and higher in relation to the sternum, I see more and > more stress being placed on the shoulder joint, increasing risk of > external rotator cuff impingement and heightening stress on external > rotators to keep the humerous in check. > > I find it more comfortable (and powerful for that matter), to allow > the bar to go up in a more natural, instinctive fashion, and for me, > this is closer to the bar just going straight up and down. > > Thoughts? > I think your concerns might be very valid, except in relation to power. In my experience, finding the proper groove (which with me follows the above described arc) allows for more power because up&down seems to use only pecs whereas the arc allows for the triceps and frontal delts to assist to a greater degree. In other words, I lift more when using the arc. BTW: I have a recently rehabilitated shoulder problem and experience less shoulder pain when using the arc also, but I can definitely see where you're coming from. -- Karl Core "It ain't rocket science, son. Just keep piling it on till you can't lift any more." Krista Scott wanna know why nobody on MFW likes Bill Phillips? Go here: < http://mfw.tico.com/buttplug.cfm > Contact me on the ICQ network: 9096282 AOL Instant Messenger Users, my SN is "RecoilRecs" From rdunca*nospam*19@idt.net Mon Mar 16 21:59:01 PST 1998 Sandeep De wrote: > > On 14 Mar 1998 21:22:26 GMT, "Karl Core" > wrote: > > >The arc should follow a smooth pattern from just above the eyes, down to > >the nipples (some people even go further down the chest) and back up to a > >position above the eyes. > > While I don't doubt for a second that this is a safe technique for the > majority of lifters, I question the stress that this "arc" places on > the acromioclavicular process, etc. of the shoulder joint. As the bar > travels higher and higher in relation to the sternum, I see more and > more stress being placed on the shoulder joint, increasing risk of > external rotator cuff impingement and heightening stress on external > rotators to keep the humerous in check. > > I find it more comfortable (and powerful for that matter), to allow > the bar to go up in a more natural, instinctive fashion, and for me, > this is closer to the bar just going straight up and down. > > Thoughts? > For safetys sake going straight up and down in line with the nipples is the best way to go. Elbows out. I wish I was standing in front of someone to try and explain this but there is another factor involved. It is wrist and hand position. I cant count the times I have seen people who have poor form on this lift. Your hands should not be cocked back and having just your connective tissues supporting the weight of the bar. It IS hard to explain damnit. Picture having your hand made into a fist. Put the back of your entire lower arm against a wall. that would be the straight position. Now cock your wrist all the way back. That would be the 90 dg position. It is best to be in the exact middle of these two. (or damn close) It takes pressure off of weaker tissues and when trained in this way will eventually strengthen both flexors and extensiors. It puts the weight of the bar more in line with the lower arms bones, rather than an inch or two (maybe even more for some people) back towards the head. It can help you cheat on a lockout in comp as well by lowering into the bad position aproaching lockout. It seams awkward at first because it seams an inordinant abount of weight is resting on the thumb side of the hand. The arc or "J" is usefull in comp or 1rmax. In using it just for best lift possible bring the bar down to the nipples, then when bringing the bar towards the head the horizontal inertia can be used in hoisting the weight up by being redirected vertically. This is even harder to describe. Oh well. Rob > ---------- > Sandeep De > The Power Factory - http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/4039/ > "Beefcake, BEEEEEFCAAAAAAAKE!!!!!" - Cartman From adlon@hotmail.com Sat Mar 21 07:18:57 PST 1998 On Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:57:47 -0800, Rajesh Kumar wrote: >I was getting some shoulder tendinitis with barbell bench press so I >checked around about proper form. Some guy ( power factory ?) has good >advice about getting the shoulders back and getting the bar halfway up >the chest. Both of these seem to help. It also mentioned something about >getting the weight up in an ARC instead of straight up. Can some one be >more specific. Are you supposed to get an arc first going towards your >legs or towards your head. I agree that either of these feels more >natural than straight up but which is the the preferred one among gurus >here to reduce shoulder stress. > >Rajesh. I've been observing this group for a while. It would appear that you need to know algebra, calculus, and have a good set of tools so when you are done measuring the X = Y radius of your gluteus fartemus arcemus liftemus, you can go build a goddamn suspension bridge across the Indian Ocean. True, good form is important. What is good form? There is no better "good form" then what NATURE says is good form. You are getting tendonitis probably due to the fact that you probably have been continually adding weight, for however long you have been working out, without ANY regard to building your connective tissue in your shoulders. Whether you add 5 pounds a day, 5 pounds a week, or a month, you WILL eventually surpass the NATURAL limits of your connective tissue in your shoulders. As I confess that I'm no expert, all I can say is I have been there, sore shoulders and all that. I went to a chiropractor for advice, one who works in the sports arena in my locality. He gave me several suggestions, the most important being ONE exercise that helps IMMENSELY! With a (at least starting out) 10 pound DB, kneel at a bench, hold the DB and place your arm on the bench as if you are gonna arm wrestle an imaginary opponent. SLOWLY, "pin" your imaginary opponent to the bench, and slowly return to the vertical position. The keyword here is SLOW! Do this with the 10 pounder till you get tired, NOT TO FAILURE. Doesn't matter if it takes a hundred reps. As you continue this, add 2.5 pounds, NO MORE, at any time you feel the need to. Jumping up in weight quickly, or bigger poundage, DOES NOT HELP, and can cause more HARM than good. I've been doing this for 4 months now, I'm up to 20 pounds with this exercise, and NO MORE SORE SHOULDERS. As my chiropractor currently benches 400 pounds, I feel his input was VERY valid. Also, for the first 2 weeks of this, DROP about 10-15 % OFF your current bench. After that, you can return to where you were, building back slowly. Do this exercise on your off days(guess that means no off days :) And see: No X = Y radius gladius maximus shitimus, and no suspension bridges. Good luck, and hope this helps you as it did me. Note to flamers(and there a bunch of you, aren't there? ) this and all newsgroups are for expressing opinions, ideas, and sharing a common interest. The above IDEA was an OPINION EXPRESSED to me by my chiropractor, which I SHARED, as I and rkumar share a COMMON INTEREST. If you badly want to FLAME, please strike a bluetip match off of your ass. *adlon*@*hotmail*.com Remove the Stars if u want your mail to get thru! Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:30:29 -0400 From: "Paul C. LoCasto" Subject: Re: My Bench Sucks >Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:59:54 -0400 >From: Michael Seeley >Subject: My Bench Sucks...I Need Help > >------------------------------------------- > >I'd like a moment to rant, and then plead for help: > >My bench has not gone up in the last several YEARS! > >I'm 35. I made the change for bodybuilding-type training >to powerlifting over a year ago. I've tried periodization >routines, Louie Simmons' program, variations on each, twice >a week benching, once a week benching...everything that seemed >the least bit plausible for increasing one's bench max. > >I get 8 hours a night, eat well and lots (I weigh 190 lbs.). >I'm using Creatine and a multivitamin supplement. > >Despite this, I seem prone to overtraining, although I don't >think that's the problem (I'm still hungry for lifting, I still >get good pumps and I still enjoy the workouts). > >Most recently I've done a lot of assistance work for Tri's, >shoulders, and lats. My poundages in these movements have not >increase in a long time either. > >I realize this is anything but a quick-answer problem. I'm hoping >someone out there with some experience can suggest something or maybe >work with me offline from the list. > >I'm pretty discouraged right now, but I love the training and I'd like >to enter a meet. No way I'm gonna do that with a 260 lb bench! > >Thanks > >Mike Seeley > Mike, I am by no means to experienced. But i also had the same problem. For me it was a simple change in grip position that helped. You might have experimented with your grip already but if you havent, try it. It worked for me. Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:42:43 -0400 From: Wade Hanna Subject: Strength_List: Leg Drive on the bench >I suppose one o' these days I'm going to have to readjust my benching style >to suit powerlifting, but I have *always* done pec-style benches. I don't >see how it is possible to get leg drive into a bench press without coming up >off your butt, or at least sliding along the bench with your butt. Could >anyone explain this one to me? A friend of mine tried to teach me how to >use leg drive, and all I got was a sore lower back from hyper-arching my >lower back, as my big fat butt stayed put as I "drove my legs". Well, I am no expert bencher but, I think I have a grasp on how to get the leg drive to work (I don't always get it too but, I know how to do it). It sounds like what is happening is you are not keeping your abs tight when you bench. If they aren't tight then when you drive your legs you will only succeed in driving your hips back and your shoulders stay rooted...the result is you over arch your back. The leg drive is only effective for about the first third of the lift (IMO). It will help to get you blasting off your chest. The actual drive is a quick burst that you push initially while staying tight as your delts/tri's finish off the lift. If you are slowing and continue to push with your legs then you will either raise up your butt or over arch. If you can get your timing right then you will feel the energy transfer all the way up your body from the leg drive and it really gets the start. After that I think you are only going to push as much as your delt/tri area can do. The harder you get the bar started (read:explosive) then the more momentum you carry through the mid and upper part of the lift. I think a part of what the leg drive does is to help tighten your entire body. The big benchers would probably agree that you have to be tight to make the big lift. Like a squat or dl you have to be tight all over to make the limit attempts. Same holds for the bench. Maybe try a couple of the following and see if they will help. Before you unrack the bar take a big breath and push it down into your stomach. Like you are pushing your gut out and tightening it all at the same time. Once done, hold that breath throughout the bench motion. This will help to keep you nice and tight during the bench. Once you bring the bar down to your chest, pause, then give a quick push with your legs. Try to think of the push as a sort of leg extension instead of pushing from your hips (that will raise your butt quicker than anything). Make sure your feet are rooted to the floor. Plant your feet before you even lay down and don't move them. As soon as you start to push/drive your legs blast the bar off your chest for everything you are worth. Don't slow down at the top, continue to push through to the lockout. You will need to use some weight to keep from banging your elbows but, this teaches you how to follow through (helps eliminate the middle sticking point that is pretty common). As soon as you drive the legs and the bar simultaneously you will find the bar about half-way up and then your concern is with the tri's to lock it out. If you are stalling here and arch it is because your tri's are weak and you are pushing with your legs to mimic a decline position (which generally is a stronger benching postion). Try to concentrate on fininshing with your tri's and nothing else. If you stall then DO NOT allow your legs to push in an effort to alter your postion on the bench. One last point to consider, if you are a really big archer before you unrack then you are probably not going to get much from a leg drive. I think you have to have a mild arch to maximise the leg drive. As I mentioned above it helps to tighten your whole body. With your abs tight you drive your legs and it will further tighten your back and such, during limit attempts you will assume a posture that is where your body is at its strongest orientation. I think the quick leg drive postitions your body in this type of orientation and really what you are doing is just putting the final touches on your postion. An example would be if you were going to push something (car, etc) from a standing position. From a relaxed standing orientation if you get the signal to push you would step into it and your back arches to a certain point as your legs drive then you would push off with the arms. This is a quick analogy but, I think the point is clear (maybe not). There is a sequence of muscle firings that needs to occur...they always say lifting starts with the feet right? This is by no means the definitive dissertation of how or why a leg drive works. This is just my interpretation and analysis of my own personal experimentation. I hope maybe it has sparked an idea or helped to make something more clear. It is an odd aspect of the bench that is hard to really describe...one of those things you just need to "feel" to fully understand. Anyway, hope this helps and maybe some of the better benchers could offer some insight. Good liftin' - -wade Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 10:06:30 -0400 From: Wade Hanna Subject: Strength_List: Pauses on Bench and other questions -Reply Steve wrote... Lately when I've been training chest, I've been making an effort to pause, distinctly, at/on my chest before pressing up. When I do this, the amount of weight I can press goes down (or the amount of reps). That much I expect. Am I correct in assuming that aside from getting used to contest-style pauses, but is this better for building strength(versus no pause)? ~Steve, I think you want to include some pause reps in your training but, the majority of it should be controlled touch and go. Louie is big on the touch and go for training and doesn't advocate pauses since he says the shirt will alleviate this disadvantage. I don't like to not include any so I always do a couple of singles (80-85%) after my volume benching with a competition pause. Most of the floor presses and sometimes with the board presses I will include some pause too. Also, I find myself split between trainig to failure (ala bodybuilding, where I started) or going just short of that point. On low reps (<8), am I better off NOT pushin to concentric failure or not? ~Personally, I like to leave just a fraction left at the end. I think psychologically it adds to your training to NOT ever miss a lift. Great confidence builder and you are much more aware of exactly what your limits are. Also, I've seen a lot of y'all posting traing regimes that include things like multiple sets of (I assume heavy) singles, but with short pauses. What gives here? Maybe I need to go back and reread some books, but that doesn't seem like enough time for the ATP/PC system to regenerate/refresh. There's got to be an explanation I either can't remember or am overlooking. In the meantime, I'm taking long rest intervals between sets. ~I think I am the biggest culprit here of doing this (maybe not). I simply didn't like the absolute maxes on the heavy days so traded them for 5x1 with roughly 90+%. The goal behind the quicker rest time is to increase your strength and the volume you do. I have found that by going slightly less then 100% but, doing it more times in a short period of time I am gaining quicker. I get more reps under near maximal weight and my endurance with the near maximal weight is jumping by leaps and bounds. I think 100% attempts are too taxing to the mental to include with any kind of regularity. The short rest periods make the last 2-3 singles very hard but, I am finding I can lift longer and heavier then I ever could before. I can't give you scientific studies to correlate this but, I operate under the maxim "your body WILL adapt." Oh, lastly, delts - I'd like to see if there's a consensus on what's the best bench assist delt exercise. My reason being, my sticking point on the bench is at the midpoint (I guess that's what you call it). About two, three inches off my chest. ~I have been doing plate raises both seated and standing and have noticed a marked improvement in my bench lately. The mid-point has also been my weak point but, in addition I have included a lot of floor presses and board presses. I feel both of them in the shoulders a little (floor presses more so) so I can't say if they are the solution or the actual shoulder work is. I do like the plate raises though. Have gotten to the point of doing 100lb plate for a couple sets of 5's. I think it was Jim Williams who was real big on these too. Might try it for some variation if nothing else. HTH and good liftin' - -wade Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 21:21:42 -0700 From: Deepsquatter Subject: Grip Width and Bench Sticking Points -Reply Steven, Just to add to this discussion a bit. Pausing on ever rep seems to help with strength off the chest. A kid I'm helping at the gym - the bodybuilder for those that know the story- had no strength off the chest, mostly due to a couple of years of off "all you" tag team bounce benching. The first thing I made him do was pause each and every rep of every set for a "one thousand one and up" count. In five weeks he went from an UGLY 325 to a pretty 365. Now, if only I could teach myself to bench better.... Steven Dana wrote: > > Greetings; >> > I've seen a number of people on the list (myself included) asking about > ways to get through a off-the-chest sticking point while benching. > After some experimentation, i.e wide grips, shoulder work, etc (which > all helped) I finally tried adjusting my grip-width slightly. My > competition grip had my ring fingers on the rings. Last night I > switched it one finger over to have my middle finger on the rings. I > was shocked at the difference! I was able to drive up a weight that > usually comes back down after an inch or so. It felt great. I hope > this may help anyone with a similar sticking point. > > Thanks, > > Bill > > Good intentions but even though a group of lifters may have the same > sticking point, you could have multiple different reasons for that same > sticking point. In other words, if we have a goup of 5 lifters all with an > off the chest sticking point, lifter 1 could have weak pecs, lifter 2 weak > anterior delts, lifter 3 could have less than good levers and so on. > moving your grip is only going to work for lifters with YOUR exact same > weakness....right? just my opinion. lol. > > steve dana Jason W. Burnell STRENGTH ONLINE: http://www.deepsquatter.com Subject: push-ups From: Jason F Keen Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 23:50:58 -0700 Here's another possibly useful tip for all of you powerlifters out there (especially with limited equipment) that I have not shared with the list before. Those of you familiar with Louie Simmons and his percent training (this stuff works) may have read in PL USA or elsewhere about his use of Kowalcyk (sp?) weight-releasers and elastic bands. We do not have these things and when we have people doing a percent training and conjugate- method type of program and want to incorporate this kind of thing we do push-ups. What we do is have a partner (preferably the heaviest guy in the gym) push down on you as you go down into the push-up so that you are pushing as hard as you can to avoid getting your face smashed into the floor. This mimics the overloaded negative portion of the bench with the weigth releasers. We then have the partner let off and apply only enough pressure that keeps you working hard to push yourself back up as fast as you can, constantly accelerating. If you can, you can even try to explode all the way up and have your hands leave the floor. Anyway, this is not same as actually having the weight releasers or chains, but it is the next best thing, and if you stick 2 sets of these in at the end of your bench day you might just be surprised that you will actually get stronger and move the weights faster in just a couple of weeks. --- Jason F Keen, NSCA-Certified Personal Trainer jkeen@iastate.edu Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 14:16:21 EDT From: WestsideBB@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: benching Dan: Triceps strength is definitely of paramount importance in attaining a big bench press (especially if you are using a bench press shirt). The shirt primarily helps you off the chest, then you must rely on triceps strength. As far as triceps strength relates to your 1rm in the bench press, it sounds like your close grip bench press should be higher. If your bench max is 275 and your close-grip max is 205, you need to devote more attention to triceps. Your close-grip bench should, in my opinion, be in the range of 230 - 250. If your wrists hurt while performing any exercise...wrap them. How close is your close-grip? It might be too close. Many bodybuilders touch their thumbs together then wrap their hands around the bar. This places the hands a mere 4" apart which stresses the wrists to a great degree and severely inhibits the amount of weight you can lift. I strongly suggest placing your index fingers on the knurling where the bar becomes smoothe. This will afford you a little closer than shoulder width grip. Anything closer is usually a waste. Also you might want to consider doing any kind of lying triceps extensions....bar, db, or even cable. Perform them at all angles: to the forehead, neck, nose, eyes, etc. Also a great version is done while lying on your back on the floor. Lower the bar behind your head until it touches the floor...pause the weight then explode up. This will give your elbows great explosive strength. Weighted dips are great. Pushups with weight are effective as well. Just remember train your triceps first!!! (Immediately after your bench press.) I know conventional wisdom has taught us to train the larger muscle groups first, but not in this case. In the immortal words of Louie Simmons, "Train what is weak and you will be strong." Stay strong, Matt Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:17:17 -0500 (EST) From: jcmassey@bsuvc.bsu.edu Subject: Strength_List: triceps strength In regards to the message from Gary about differences in his tricep strength.... The fact that one arm locks before the other doesn't mean that it is stronger. Often right handed benchers lock their left arm first, not because the left is stronger, but because the right is stronger. Your body may know that your right arm is stronger and overcompensate, especially when lowering the bar, by not lowering the left side as much and touching the right side of the chest with the bar. You will probably start to push the left side first and it will be slightly ahead of the right on the way up. This will take some of the weight off of the left and put more on the right, thus leading to the left locking out first. When the left is locked, the extra angle of the bar will put extra weight on the right and cause problems with locking it out. Have a partner watch you bench with a heavy weight and watch the way the bar touches your chest and moves upward as you push. You may also notice a difference when you use DB's to bench in the way that they are lowered and pressed. To correct this problem you must make a conscious effort to lower the bar to the same depth on both sides and push equally and in a bilateral manner on the press. This is tough, because your body has developed a programed firing pattern for the motor neurons that you use while benching. The human body has a bilateral deficit, where the force produced by both limbs together is not as much as the sum produced by each limb individually and added together. The firing pattern of your neurons may be firing in a way to lessen this bilateral deficit by increasing the individual response of each limb, but this is only a guess, I have no research to support this. The only way to correct your problem is through conscious effort and time. I may be mistaken in my advice, but this information generally holds true for righty's and lefty's with the opposite arm locking first. Good luck, and I hope this info is of some help. Jay Massey Subject: Re: breaking through chest plateau From: "Allan Smeyatsky" Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:37:41 -0800 Nico said: >> Hi...I'm Nicolas from Argentina. I'm 21 years old, I've been working out for 9 months now, 3 times a week. I weigh 70 kgs, and here's my problem. I haven't been able to make any progress in the bench press. I mean, I started 9 months ago with 30 kgs in the bench press and I haven't been able to lift more than that. What should I do? Nico << Hi Nico, There are various things that you can try: 1. Negatives - at the end of a set, once you can do no more, then feel the weight on the way down and get a spotter to pick the weight up. Do at least 2 or 3 like that. 2. Change your exercise every 6 weeks. Possibly try some incline bench or incline dumbell press. 3. Try some pre-exhaust techniques. Do a set of flat fly's before your flat bench. 4. Include pullovers and chest dips in your routine 5. Adhere to what my sig says. i.e make sure that you control the negative on every rep. 5. It could be a mental thing. I was convinced that I would never bench press more than 100kg. It took me about 2 years to break through that one. One day that you are feeling strong, JUST DO IT!. Add small weights when you increase. Use 1 pound plates if you have them. Best of luck Allan Smeyatsky "On all exercises, I always control the negative" - Yates Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 07:09:58 -0500 From: Big Daddy B Subject: Strength_List: special exercise goals Subscribers appeared to be interested in Westside's special exercises and goals of each in order to bench 400-500-600lbs. I will offer my own experiences and insights so there is at least a starting point for some interested lifters. I do have some expertise based on my own improvement and my #4 ranking in the bench in the 242lb. class. Here are some correlations I personally use. These can vary among lifters because of a myriad of factors, and keep in mind as someone else indicated on the site, an increase in special exercises does not guarantee a meet max if the wrong exercises are being utilized. I have discovered that a close-grip max should be 90 percent of a raw max. A close-grip for me is a safer lift for a single, so if I close-grip 500 for 1 rep I found that my max should be around 540-550. Illegal grip benches outside of the ring for 5 reps is another barometer I use. I have found this relationship: my illegal grip for 5 reps with a slight pause add 100lbs. and this should be close to my max. Ex. 440 for 5 reps equals 540 or so for a max. Floor press-- if you want to bench 500, your floor press should be at least 1 good paused rep at 400. If your goal is a 600 bench in a meet with a suit your floor press should be around 500 for a rep, and so on. D-bells off a swiss ball or off a flat bench- take your raw max and divide by 2 this should be the weight of the set of d-bells. Ex. 500 raw max divided by 2 equal 250, so the d-bells should be 125's. Your goal should be to do 3-4 sets of d-bells with minimal rest for 12-15 reps. I believe a good goal for the board press is 90-95% of a meet max off three boards with no suit. Ex. meet max equal 500 with a suit do 450-470 off three boards. Heavy handouts-- should be able to hold in an extended position 150lbs. or more over your max for 10 secs. Well, I hope this helped. This again is my own observations and I do not say this is universally correct. Hopefully this does give some subsribers a place to start . thanks Glenn Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 15:19:39 -0500 From: "Mike Brookman" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Crapy form on heavy benches If the bar is moving towards your head on the upward phase of the bench then the shoulders are beginning to take over and this is due to the shoulders being stronger than the triceps. I would work more on increasing the triceps strength with exercises like Paul Dick's Presses, JM Presses, Close Grip Rack Lockouts, Close grip floor presses, and barbell triceps extensions to the kneck. Mike Brookman - -----Original Message----- From: Cat To: strength@deepsquatter.com Date: Friday, December 25, 1998 11:57 PM Subject: Strength_List: Crapy form on heavy benches >Ok I don't have a huge bench, but its my best lift. What I did notice on my >last max attempt is that the form was awfull. I started driving the bar and >about 1 inch of my chest the bar went towards my head. So there I was fighting >this weight for what felt like an eternity in this awkward position. It must >have taken me at least 5 seconds to lock out, but there was just no way I could >try another single that day, I was done. I heard that this is caused by weak >triceps, but I doubt that is the primary problem. Any ideas ? > >Catalin > Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 21:36:59 EST From: POWERJIMM@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: Crapy form on heavy benches floor press. use a smith machine or just lay on your back. lower the weight until your elbows touch the ground.pause, then press. they really help a lockout. From bobmann@home.com Mon Dec 28 22:50:24 PST 1998 On 26 Dec 1998 14:56:21 GMT, Redwings@worldnet.att.net wrote: >Yeh, I have the same problem, has haunted me for years! My middle and >outer pecs are very muscular, whereas my innners or somewhat lacking, >plus I have more of a gap in the middle than I would care to have. >Good luck trying to find something that helps this out, if you do send >me an email ! > >Fred > I hope you guys don't expend too much effort and thought on this. If there is a large gap between the pecs it is because the muscle insertion at that point is farther to the outside. What is left is bone and cartilage. No amount of exercise can add muscle to bone and cartilage. The best you can hope for is that it will have the appearance of filling in if the pecs are larger all over. There is no way to make the "inner pecs" larger other than making the pecs as a whole larger. You cannot preferentially enlarge a muscle fibre at one end rather than the other.