From: anderson@harrier (Robert Anderson) Subject: Re: Chest vs. triceps Date: 9 Jan 1997 01:24:21 GMT Christopher L Connell (cconnell@utdallas.edu) wrote: : Patrick K. Spence (pkspence@conc.tdsnet.com) wrote: : =+ It seems most of my chest work hits the triceps and does very little : =+ for the chest. Suggestions? : FLYES. Better yet, learn how to maximize chest involvement in the bench. This needs to be part of the FAQ. Push the chest out, roll the shoulders down and back. Use a comfortable arch in the lower back. Use a grid width so that your elbows are at 90 degrees when your upper arms are parallel to the floor. Lower the bar to a comfortably high position on the chest. Practice squeezing the pecs to push the bar off the chest. If you already do all this, then try prefatiguing the chest with dumbbell flyes or the pec deck. Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Anderson http://www.mae.princeton.edu/~cfdlead/ Aerospace Engineering anderson@harrier.princeton.edu ------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: tms@southeast.net (Skinny Mike) Subject: Re: Chest vs. triceps Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 06:11:14 GMT On Wed, 08 Jan 1997 02:19:56 GMT, pkspence@conc.tdsnet.com (Patrick K. Spence) wrote: >It seems most of my chest work hits the triceps and does very little >for the chest. Suggestions? > How close to your body are your elbows when you press upward? If you find that they are close to your sides then maybe you could try lightening up the weight some and concentrate on keeping them out. Like pointing towards the plates at either end of the bar instead of pointing towards your feet. This may put some added pressure on you shoulders so do please lighten up abit. You may also try this with dumbells instead of a bar. You may also look at the distance between your thumbs when you grip the bar. It should be right at shoulder width apart or an inch or two wider but not too wide. Let me know if this helps. From: tmccull230@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Chest vs. triceps Date: 14 Jan 1997 16:05:29 GMT In article , ASH wrote: >I'm not very sure myself but isn't it better to pre-exhaust the >triceps first ( since its the one giving the problems ) by doing some >pulldowns or french presses before doing the bench. That way when you hit >the bench press, any movement would stress and work the pecs and not the >already exhausted triceps??? What do you think???? I don't know about you , but by the time I am findished doing the bench press, my tris are pretty well shot. If not, a few sets of heavy close grips will do the trick nicely. Why would you want to limit the stress you can put on the chest by pre-exhausting one of the weaklinks and movers of the bench press. The tris and deltoids have a hard enough time keeping up with the much larger and stronger pecs. Hit the chest with every thing you've got and the tris and delts will take care of themselves. Tom McCullough M.Ed., M.S.S. From: adfit@aol.com Subject: Re: Upper pecs - trouble area! Date: 14 Jan 1997 19:19:53 GMT In article <853201241.20366@dejanews.com>, bicudo@cult.com.br writes: >What hell I have to do to make my upper pecs grow?? I do 3x8 of >incline presses with great form and following I do 3x8 of bench presses, >but I have no growth in this area...what can I do about this? > > I think most people use too high an incline and end up working more anterior delt. If you outstretch your arms, straight in front of you, touch your finger tips together and press against them you see the nipple high area activate. Then raise your hands about 4-6 inches and press again... I think that is closer to the area your looking to hit. So a 45 degree incline appears to activate more front delt. For the same reason I don't think most people need declines. Of course if your chest is filled out nicely at the top, you would. You can't set a coffee cup on my chest, and I've never heard anyone else suggest lower inclines, so maybe I'm missing something. Mark ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Advanced Fitness, Inc. adfit@aol.com http://www.mordor.com/adfit (Manta Ray) From: wizzing@aol.com (Wizzing) Subject: Re: Upper pecs - trouble area! Date: 15 Jan 1997 21:29:33 GMT Remember, the pectorals are 1 muscle group and not 3 (upper, middle, lower) with fibers running in 3 directions (upwards diagonally- clavicular fibers, horizontal, and downwards diagonally). To hit the so called clavicular fibers, the bench should not be higher than 30 degrees otherwise the ant. delts come into play. Also, in order to maximally contract your pectorals (no matter what exercise you choose), you scapula must be retracted (shoulders back and down). You should not lower the weight past the 90 degrees (forearm to upper arm) since past this mark is all delt. Any more questions, e-mail me. By the way, I have a MS in exercise phys.. Good luck. ------------------------------ From: edzerne@mail.ameritel.net (G Edward Zerne) Subject: Re: Decline Press: Role in the chest workout Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 >From: johnsonj@hn.va.nec.com > > I was interested in Frank Palmeri's post regarding decline press. In his > message, he talked about replacing flat bench with decline. He noted that > he noticed much more involvement of the pectorals then with flat BP. > > I have been doing declines in our chest workout along with flat, incline, > and flies, not as a replacement. My question really is what role do most of > you feel that decline plays in a chest workout, should it be done during > each workout, and how do you fit it in within your own workout. When doing flat bench presses, you may or may not notice--provided correct form--that your back is at least slightly arched. It should not be flat on the bench; the chest should be sticking up in the air. Most importantly, it should be comfortable and not so exaggerated as to stimulate any sort of lower back pinching or pain. Given the angle presented by the arched back and the raised chest, you are no longer pressing your arms at a perpendicular angle to your body. This results in an involvement of the entire chest--although some parts sub-maximally and others maximally. Doing declines takes much of the emphasis off of the upper chest and the anterior deltoids; thus, placing the concentration on the lower and middle chest. However, I find that my entire chest is involved moreso when doing flat bench presses. In my three years of serious, intense training, I have never worked inclines or declines into my routine--although I have tried them to get the feel. However, my chest has developed evenly throughout. It is quite common for people to use inclines in their workouts. I believe this is mainly due to a perceived lack of size in the upper chest. However, many may not realize that the upper chest simply does not quite have the growth potential of the lower chest. Thus, the upper pecs will be "thinner" than the lower pecs--often perceived as an imbalance between the two ( subsequently, the perceived need of inclines ). Do NOT get me wrong. I am NOT eschewing the efficacy of inclines or declines in the least. I am simply stating what has worked for me, and also am pointing out that SOME people misguidedly overemphasize inclines and declines. However, it may very well be that for some, the need of inclines--or declines--is justified. Oftentimes, the case is a desire to hit the chest from multiple angles. This may very well work for some, but I see it as wasted effort ( in most cases ). Now, one area where I DO see the usefulness of the two variations of benching is with periodization. The combination of inclines and declines into a workout would definitely provide a sufficient change of pace for the muscles, very likely stimulating them to grow once again. I'm sure I'll need to clarify on some of this, so feel free to respond ( or flame, as the case may be *grin* ). Matt Stringer ------------------------------ From: Tim Yang Subject: Re: Decline Press: Role in the chest workout & Ratios of Weight Lifted Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 Hi, it's been a while since i posted but, i now have a few thoughts to contribute. for the longest time, 18 years, i've never really spent much time doing declines. although, i've spent quite a bit of time doing dips and i think they work wonders for chest and shoulders. i avoided declines because my lower chest grows well but, i've always had trouble with my upper chest, especially relative to my front delts. (for example, there was a time where i could bnp 185# for 10 reps and i could only incline 215# fro 10 reps. i would think there should be more of a spread between the two exercises). anyway, i've recently started doing declines almost exclusively for chest because flat bench would cause too much tendonitis in my delts. the result is that i've gone from 275# for 10 reps to 325# for 10 reps on a shallow decline, maybe 15 degrees dcline, with very little tendonitis and renewed growth in my pecs. the soreness and growth is all over the pecs rather than in just the lower pec which is what i used to think would happen. the point being that i've gotten past the idea that you stimulate one part of your chest with inclines and another with declines and i've benefitted from it. (in the past, i was likely hitting my delts with inclines more than my chest and that was just accentuating the imbalane.) with regard to ratios of bench, squat, and deadlift, i've always kinda figured you should be able to squat 10 reps with what you can bench for 1 rep and you should be able to deadlift at least that much. for example, if someone can bench 315# w/o bouncing, etc... for 1 rep then they should be able to squat 315# for 10 full reps w/o wraps. they should also be able to deadlift the same amount of more (personally, my hips are strong compared to everything else so i can pull reps with around 100# more than i could bench for 1 rep.) i think if you strive for these ratios then you'll find your physique will be well balanced and overall atheleticism will benefit. -tim Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:18:24 -0600 (CST) From: Walter B Kulecz PhD >Jan, how do you control heavy dumbells? It seems to me that safety is the >prime recommendation for the bench press. Not only do you have the stand >on which to place the bar in a hurry, but a partner can spot you for added >safety. >With dumbells, I'd never be lifting at my capacity for fear that a sudden >failure of strength will leave the dumbells out of control and me injured. Actually dumbells are IMHO "safer" cause you can always just "dump 'em" off to the side. Embarrasing noise perhaps but no real harm. Unlike the barbell which will try to cut you in two should you fail :-) A spotter for dumbells stands much like for bench and just reaches around and stablizes each elbow. For me heavy is 80 lb dumbells (I can only do about 165 with a barbell because like Jan, the synergy that generally lets you get 25% more weight tears up my shoulders). I can handle these fine without a spotter. I start with the pair on the floor in front of the bench. I then effectively do a deadlift to a standing position with the dumbells at my thighs. I then just sit on the bench with the dumbells resting on my thighs, near the knees. With one smooth motion I "kick" up one knee to get the dumbell at shoulder level and rock back using momemntum to bring the other dumbell up to shoulder level as I lay down. The starting position is then much like a normal bench press but with the bar down instead of up.You can either drop the dumbells off to the side when done, but I do the inverse "pop up" and set the weights back on your thighs as you sit up at the end of the set. My spotter never touches anything but my elbows and only then when I'm "stuck" with just enough force to get them moving again. The really big boys use two spotters for dumbells each stands off to the side and handles only one dumbell. --wally. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:04:00 -0500 From: "Peden, Glenn" Subject: Use of dumbells Tom, I view the use of dumbells vs a barbell in the opposite way. I usually am working out alone, and because of that am "nervous" about taking benchpress (with a barbell) to failure. This is because failure, for me, will occur at or near the bottom of the range of motion (i.e., I can't get the next rep up). I greatly dislike lying there on the bench with a loaded barbell sitting on my chest. ;-) (And, it has happened.) Now, if I work to failure with dumbells, and fail at the same point (bottom of the range of motion), then it's a relatively simple thing to move the weights away from my body and down to the floor. The trick is to not let them move too sharply away from the body, or my shoulders will complain. If you do have a spotter, then spotting for dumbell presses is pretty straightforward. The spotter helps you stabilize the arms by holding his/her hands next to the outside of the lifter's forearms. (I suppose it's possible to "fall in" with the dumbells on failure, but I've never seen it.) Then, if it's necessary to take the weights, you slide right up to the lifter's hands and take over. My only problem with doing heavy dumbell presses comes from the two things mentioned above. No partner and "bad" shoulders. I have trouble getting heavy dumbells up to the extended/starting position to begin with, due to what I'll call a "dead" spot in my shoulder. Once the weights are up, though, I have no problem pressing them. So, I could use a partner/spotter to help me get positioned safely (rather than my "dumbells-on-thighs, roll back to the bench" routine). By the way, I also agree about the weighted dips. Doing a combination of weighted dips and heavy dumbell presses will make my pecs ache like regular bench pressing never has and they're great for the triceps, too. You can also go back to the bench and do close grip presses to really bring the triceps along. Glenn From: "James Krieger" Subject: Re: big chest Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 01:23:32 GMT Gary Rosenburg wrote in article <330DD7F3.2F7A@pwgsc.gc.ca>... > arms and add heavy military presses for the shoulders. The incline bench > will mainly just target a different part of the chest, the upper pecs. > > And for the second query, the "decline" bench targets the lower pecs when > done properly. But make sure you get off the bench between sets...yer Actually, when measured by EMG activity, it has been found that declines stress the lower pecs (the sternocostal head) LESS than regular flat bench (1). It has also been found that incline bench doesn't stimulate the upper pecs (the clavicular head) any more than regular flat bench (1). 1. Barnett, C., V. Kippers, and P. Turner. Effects of variations of the bench press exercise on the EMG activity of five shoulder muscles. J. Strength and Cond. Res. 9(4):222-227. 1995. Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:34:41 -0600 From: sde@geocities.com Subject: Re: BENCH PRESS SUGGETIONS? In article <01bc2d0d$5c1472c0$6a09cfa9@rjiredff>, "rperich" wrote: > > It seems that no matter how hard I train my bench press still remains the > same.. > I'm having difficulty getting over the 225lb barrier...Any comments would > be appreciated!!!! Take two weeks off completely from training altogether (if not, from benching and any exercises involving the triceps and deltoids). I did this recently after encountering a slight plateau (a nice word for overtraining) and recently came back, doing 5 more reps with a weight I could only previously get 4 reps with...they were also a lot stricter and at a slower tempo. Often it is the case that people beat the hell out of their anterior deltoids from other exercises and it holds them back in benching... Sandeep De The Power Factory http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/4039/mainpage.htm From: TWARONE@CIVIL.uwaterloo.ca (Todd Arone) Subject: Re: BENCH PRESS SUGGETIONS? Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:23:42 GMT In article <33290CB5.6C23@mail.idt.net>, Robert Duncan wrote: >Gary Rosenburg wrote: >> >> rperich wrote: >> > >> > It seems that no matter how hard I train my bench press still remains the >> > same.. >> > I'm having difficulty getting over the 225lb barrier...Any comments would >> > be appreciated!!!! >> >> Try switching to incline and decline bench press if you don't do it >> already. This will stimulate muscle growth in different chest muscles >> than the regular bench. Also, make sure yer not overtraining...maybe >> take a little break. > >I would say this is the best advice possible. When my wife platued we >went to inclines and declines only. After a couple weeks she was pushin >25's on the flat bench with no prob. When we tried 35's we did the same >thing. It's a good way to slip past a sticking point. > > Rob I had the great opportunity to meet one of the trainers for Evander Holyfield and this is the advice he had for the bench: First, find out your one rep max (preferably using a weight that you can rep no more than 4 times and then reading a chart). Then, for one week, use 65 percent of your max. When doing your reps, bring the weight down as slow as possible, then explode up. You should do at least one set until failure. This is best if you find a spotter that knows what he is doing (ie. spotters that pull the weight off as soon as you are failing are wasting your time, that last slow rep up is very important). The next week go up to 75 percent of your max, and the third week, go to 85 percent. Finally, the forth week, measure your new max and start over. He stated that you will get far greater strength increases by using slow, perfect form reps than pushing up low reps of high weight. Since your maximum growth occurs when you are resting (rebuilding), you are best to only work your pecs twice a week. Also, you really only need three different excersises for each muscle, but you may want to vary them from week to week. Well, I hope I have been helpful, just keep in mind that what works for some does not always work for others. Todd W. Arone ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: stownsley@apc.net (Mr. Sunshine) Subject: Re: BENCH PRESS SUGGETIONS? Date: 15 Mar 97 09:46:51 GMT In article <33286C19.55A2@pwgsc.gc.ca>, Gary Rosenburg wrote: > rperich wrote: > > > > It seems that no matter how hard I train my bench press still remains the > > same.. > > I'm having difficulty getting over the 225lb barrier...Any comments would > > be appreciated!!!! > > > Try switching to incline and decline bench press if you don't do it > already. This will stimulate muscle growth in different chest muscles > than the regular bench. Also, make sure yer not overtraining...maybe > take a little break. You might try switching to training with dumbells to build strength in your stabilizers and neutralizers along with the pecs (agonist/prime mover). As you become stronger with a 'less stable' exercise then that should translate into the ability to generate MORE power when you move back to barbell bench press. -- Steve Townsley // stownsley@apc.net From: stownsley@apc.net (Mr. Sunshine) Subject: Re: best way to get striations on your chest... Date: 18 Mar 97 20:44:44 GMT In article <332E5BE8.47C4@mail.idt.net>, Robert Duncan wrote: > Mark Strong wrote: > > > > Ok, I have just started to notice better definition in my chest, but I > > am looking for better ways to get striations ( inner pectoral > > definition ) on my chest. I use the Pec Dec for this, as well as > > Narrow Grip bench press. Are there any other excercises that I should > > be using? > > Cardio is probably your best bet. I haven't seen anything much in the way > of scientific proof that corrolates any paticular chest exercise with > striations. If someone is aware of anything I'd love to see it. > The narrow grip BP's are probably doing more for your tri's than chest. > Depends on your grip width. > > Rob I've read about an EMG study (it's been posted here also) that showed close grip bench presses targeted the clavicular head of the pecs better than incline benches. I think the difference is how you perform the exercise. If you push the weight 'out' so that it ends up over your solar plexus then you'll primarily be targeting the triceps. Push it straight up so the bar ends up right over your upper pecs/shoulders then you should be hitting the 'upper' pec. Try it and you should find that it works. -- Steve Townsley // stownsley@apc.net From: chass@unixg.ubc.ca (Calvin Hass) Subject: Re: close-grip bench presses Date: 17 Mar 1997 18:11:49 GMT Richard J Rikoski (rr4e+@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote: : ok, I recently started doing these, are you supposed to feel a shearing : force in your wrists, or should you hold wide enough that this doesn't : happen? That "shearing" is a big problem with CG BPs. A good alternative I find is the reverse-grip bench. It offers considerable tricep involvement and one can hold the grip at shoulder-width which is much more natural biomechanically. The only difference is that you will require a spotter for *lift-off* on heavy sets. Calvin Hass chass@unixg.ubc.ca Weights, Windsurf, Mountain Bike, From: "Neal Glover" Subject: Re: the danger of new spotters Date: 10 Apr 1997 16:33:01 GMT Lyndsey D. Ferguson wrote > Hmmm...well I did something similar, after doing a heavy bench session, I > thought I'd polish it off with a set of 135lbs and as many reps as I could > pull off. Just for the hell of it. I figured I'd be able to do 20 reps or > so. I get to 14, chest is burning but I got it up, "Ok, one more", I think > to myself. Shit can't get it up. Bring it down, breath, try again, nope. > Ok, no problem I think I bring it down so that its on my lower abs and I > sit up (takes a second to get up) Then I stand and lift it planing on > turning around and putting it back on the rack. I must have gone too fast > as one of the plates fell off and made a ton 'o noise (it rolled into > the bench) and the other one almost fell off too. Moral of the story...always use your spring clips or collars to hold the plates on. ;-) Always used to bench alone at home when I was younger and it was the one exercise I routinely did to failure. There wasn't a week that went by that I didn't overestimate my ability to get one last rep and end up rolling the bar across my stomach. Up to about 185lbs. or so I had no trouble rolling it across my stomach, and even across my umm...you know, to get the bar on my thighs so it was easier to stand. Around 200lbs I had to stop short of reaching my thighs, and I'd leave a trail of broken capillaries on my stomach. When I passed 200lbs I got smart and layed a 1/2" piece of plywood on me each time I benched. It stretched from just below my chest down to my thighs. It was trial and error getting it cut to fit comfortably but it made rolling the bar off a hell of a lot easier. Not that I'd recommend doing this, or working without a spotter, thats just what I did. Neal -- Neal Glover (nealglover@uky.campus.mci.net) From brr5@columbia.edu Thu Apr 17 20:47:34 PDT 1997 On 15 Apr 1997, Reichart wrote: > > > Alex Hurtt wrote in article > <5j07fu$om7$1@cronkite.cc.uga.edu>... > > I seem to have hit a plateau on my bench press and I have been trying to > > overcome it for weeks. I'm relatively new at lifting so maybe some > people > > here can help me. What's the best strategy to use when trying to up your > > bench? How many reps, sets should I be aiming for? > > That depends. If you are trying to gain strength, heavier weights, lower > reps, more sets are in order. Depending upon how "new" you are, it may be > best not to worry much about heavy multisetting, yet. > > I have been shying > > away from dead lifts until I got a little experience "under my belt" but > I > > have recently started doing them. Think this will help? > > Help a bench press? No. Anymore than calf raises help your triceps. They > are an excellent move, and doing them will be of benefit to you. But to > increase benching, you bench, and do assistance moves associated with the > muscles / tendons necessary to bench. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Deadlifts can help your bench. They had a lot of mass to your upper back, which will help in benching. They also work your legs. Your legs are also involved in benching somewhat. Not only do they stabilize your body, but they also help slightly to drive the bar up. Can you max out at the same weight if you don't have your feet positioned on the floor? I doubt it. Also, power movements like deadlift and squat will help to increase bodyweight, which will in turn help you out on the bench. /Brian > > > I am also confused about a term I keep hearing. I read in > > magazines and such that you should train a muscle until it is absolutely > > fatigued. To me this means that if I was training biceps I would have to > > do curls until I absolutely could not lift my arm by itself with no > > weight. This can't be right can it? > > No. This is not right. It means until you can no longer lift the weight you > have on the bar. It is not the best thing to do this very often by the way, > if you multiset. > -- > Reichart From: "Reichart" Subject: Re: Bench Press Plateau. Date: 18 Apr 1997 01:07:57 GMT Brian Russell Raupp wrote in article < > Wrong, wrong, wrong. Deadlifts can help your bench. They had a lot of > mass to your upper back, which will help in benching. They also work your > legs. Your legs are also involved in benching somewhat. Not only do they > stabilize your body, but they also help slightly to drive the bar up. Can > you max out at the same weight if you don't have your feet positioned on > the floor? I doubt it. Also, power movements like deadlift and squat > will help to increase bodyweight, which will in turn help you out on the > bench. /Brian No, not wrong necessarily. The guy said he hit a plateau. In order to overcome a plateau, changing your rep / wt / set schemes, and focusing on the associated movements would be best. I agree with most of what you said generally. The DL is a good move for reasons you mentioned, plus. Squats as well. However, for a plateau I do not think focusing on DL, and squat will do a lot to overcome a stuck bench. In fact, if this person is in an overtrained state, focusing on these two other moves (heavily) may drive him deeper into a negative training state. Which then he would begin to lose overall strength, and muscle tissue. If you had stagnated on your squat, do you think focusing on your bench would help? Or would you start doing maybe front squats, Maybe lighter wt, higher rep squats etc...? -- Reichart Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:03:18 -0400 From: Phil Andrews Subject: Re: Weak Bench Press HELP !!!! At 07:46 PM 4/16/97 -0700, Jason W. Burnell wrote: > >Ok guys I need some help !!! > >This past weekend me bench cost me 1st place. I squatted a PR 660 and >pulled a PR 665 but my relatively weak BP of 390 cost me. Ive got pretty >long arms and I only weighed in at 204 so I've got some room to grow >into my new weight class but I need some bench advice. >Does anybody out there have any advice for me ?? I'm pretty much all >legs and butt - great for the SQ and DL but I neet to sprout some delts, >lats tris and pecs. >-- I have long arms (6'2" armspan at 5'9" height) and found that bulking up the arms with biceps and triceps work makes them "feel" shorter and helps the Bench. Narrow grip benchs are particularly good but the bodybuilder type exercises make a nice change in the off season. I got 6 with 385 (no shirt) last night, which is good for me. -Phil Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 09:02:20 -0400 From: "Frederick C. Hatfield, Ph.D., FISSA" Subject: Re: STRENGTH Digest - 14 Apr 1997 to 16 Apr 1997 This past weekend me bench cost me 1st place. I squatted a PR 660 and pulled a PR 665 but my relatively weak BP of 390 cost me. Ive got pretty long arms and I only weighed in at 204 so I've got some room to grow into my new weight class but I need some bench advice. Does anybody out there have any advice for me ?? I'm pretty much all legs and butt - great for the SQ and DL but I neet to sprout some delts, lats tris and pecs. >> Seems to me that you've answered your own question! So, back off the heavy stuff for awhile, do some high rep stuff for the upper body in order to get nutrients to small muscles (capillarization). Then, when the supply lines are laid down, start doing some heavy bodybuilding on all of the various muscles (20 or so) of the shoulder girdle, arms, shoulders, etc. This is your FOUNDATION. Then, and ONLY then, you can begin doing heavy benching again. You cannot shoot a connon out of a canoe! Fred Hatfield From: grube@wam.umd.edu (Creep E) Subject: Re: chest Date: 25 Apr 1997 14:00:30 GMT william a. cooper (pbill76@aloha.net) wrote: : i wonder if anyone could explain to me how to work my chest to the max. : my biggest problem is my arms lose power before my chest gets a max : workout on all chest exercises. : aloha bill I think most of the advice already given is good, but if varying grip and exercises doesn't work, you might need to strengthen your tris. I'm guessing you probably always do chest before your tris or shoulders. This probably causes your tris to be pre-exhausted and you can't get a good tri workout. As a result your chest gets stronger and your tris don't. Eventually your tris are the limiting factor. Therefore maybe a month or two of intense tri workout (where your tris are exercised first or on a different day than your chest) would be enough to get your tris up to par. If you already workout your tris on a different day, this is probably not the solution. -ceg -- From: jburnell@jps.net (Jason W. Burnell) Subject: Re: Rules of Bench Press Competitions Date: Thu, 01 May 1997 05:16:24 GMT On 28 Apr 1997 20:11:05 GMT, l42992@alfa.ist.utl.pt (Rui 'Pavarotti' Martins) wrote: > >I'm thinking about creating a Universitary Bench Press Competition. Could >anyone tell me something about the rules of these competitions? Since now >I thank you... > > ADFPA, AAU, NASA - Take bar at arms length. Bar must come to a complete stop on chest. Command is 'Press' or hand clap.HEAD, Shoulders, butt on bench & can't move after the command. Feet flat on floor.Press bar to lockout. Wait for "rack' command. Rack it. Bar can not go down at all once it has started up. No heave or double bounce on chest. Bar must lock out evenly. Bar must not touch uprights. Judges call - if unintentional and it doesn't help the lift it might get passed. DONT DO IT. One Single ply shirt allowed. Thumb loops on wrist wraps can't be on thumbs while lifting. (STUPID RULE. Like that loop will make me bench more) No 'offensive' slogans on t-shirt No pockets on t shirt Many more.......but you get the idea. USPF/IPF- Basically the same except, command is given at the beginning with the bar at arms length. The bar must come to a complete stop BUT there is no press command given on the chest. The lifter stops and pauses, and then begins the press at his/her own discression. (Sounds wierd to me but lifters I know say that you get used to it - or you just have your coach/partner call the press command for you) APF. Down and up. 3 whites. Jason W. Burnell - http://home.jps.net/cburnell/deepsquatter.htm From tmccull230@aol.com Sun May 4 13:04:19 PDT 1997 In article <33672c02.601437@news.pacific.net.sg>, garyt@pacific.net.sg wrote: >I can't get a routine that can hit my PECs well. Anyway this >is what I'm doing now. > >3x8 DB flyes >?x8 Bench press > >I used to be able to get sore after that, but nowadays, my shoulders >get tired before my pecs. > >Anyone can suggest something? Gary--The pecs (upper and lower) are best activated by the flat bench press. The DB flyes not only isolate the pecs (upper pecs), but the hit the shoulders pretty hard because the arms are in flexion. Here is what Jay Cutler recently told me he does for the chest: Incline bench 4-6 reps warm up sets + 2 work sets (he likes to hit the upper pecs more) Flat dumbbell press 4-6 reps warm up sets + 2 work sets Flat dumbbell flyes (high rep) 12 - 15 reps x 3 to 4 sets He also suggested that all of these exercises should be preformed in the following way: Always lower weight in a controlled fashion and explode to the top as quickly as possible. Tom McCullough M.Ed., M.S.S. From: Eric Alter Subject: Re: Grip On Bench For Maximal Chest Development Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 08:04:10 -0500 (CDT) My opinion is that everyone who says that bench isn't working their pec development that well is doing the bench press incorrectly during their training. First off, no bouncing. Second come all the way down to the chest approximately nipple height. Third, if you really want to work the chest, drop the "touch-and-go" repetitions and try 2 second pauses with the bar touching the chest, not sinking in. Lastly, you could throw in some 1/2 reps (press bar just through your stick point and then hold it there motionless and stable before lowering the bar back to your chest). Just my $0.02 from a bench press specialist and soon to be ADFPA/USAPL powerlifter. From wroberts@grove.ufl.edu Wed May 28 06:19:22 PDT 1997 > Something you can try is to pull your shoulder blades together and > down while doing your presses. This will naturally force up your > chest, isolate the pecs more, and give a better range of motion all at > once. Also I have found that this minimizes rotator cuff injury. I formerly did not carefully follow this advice, and consistently would injure myself on free weight bench presses. Injury was so guaranteed that I had to drop the movement in favor of machine work. However, since adopting this technique very strictly, free weight bench presses have caused no rotator cuff problems. Perhaps this might be true for others as well, not just true in my case. -- Bill From: keric@cyberiron.com (Eric Anderson) Subject: Re: Macho talk. How big are you guys/girls ? (personal stats) Date: 3 Jun 1997 23:54:45 GMT Michael Behr (mabehr@mit.edu) wrote: > > How do a lot of people bench exactly 315? > > I've noticed that there's a psychological block that happens every 90 lbs > (plus the 45). I've known people who were stuck at 225, but as soon as > they switched from 4 45 lb plates plus 2 5 lb plates to 2 45 lb plates and > 4 25 lb plates, they had no problem. I will have to concur; I ran into the same problems at 225, 315 and 405 (and hopefully one day I'll find out if it's true at 495). The way I overcame it was overload - adding 10% MORE weight to the bar, which I wasn't even close to doing, but it mentally made me think that the sticking point was "lighter" and easier. Plus, a couple of overloaded negatives didn't hurt either.. Eric Anderson First Virtual Holdings CyberIron Bodybuilding Unix Sys Admin San Diego, CA From: Jason Schneider Subject: Re: Am I a mutant or are there upper/lower pecs? Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 13:08:01 +1100 Mike Lane wrote: > > gtkojaku@midway.uchicago.edu (Garrett T. Kojaku) wrote: > > >x-no-archive: yes > > > >I've read several posts asserting that the pec is all one muscle, and that > >there's no way to preferentially develop the upper part versus the lower > >part. I basically agreed with that, but... > > > Check out > http://anatomy.uams.edu/HTMLpages/anatomyhtml/muscles_upperlimb.html > > if you look down a ways on the page you will find the origin and > insertion points as well as action of the pectoralis major and the > pectoralis minor. I don't know if it answers your question or not but > it is interesting. I could not find any on-line pics of the > pectoralis muscle group--which disappointed me. For Mike and anyone else who might be interested here are some online anatomy sites with pictures etc.. http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/GrossAnatomy/dissector/muscles/muscles.html http://www.hslib.washington.edu/courses/hubio553/atlas/content.html#110 The pictures on the second site are particularly good, but high bandwidth. Hope this helps a few people Jason From *wolv@cyberway.com.sg Tue Jun 10 17:08:03 PDT 1997 MrDuplcty wrote in article > > No, this is incorrect. You may be confusing this with the idea that > there really is no way to focus on inner and outter development. > > The answer to your question is simple just look for the names of pec > muscles...there is a pectoralis major and a pectoralis minor. these > 2 muscles are fan shaped and overlap each other crosswise. > But development of inner and outer pecs is not the same as development of the pec minor and major. Because they take origin and insert differently, they have different functions. From an aesthetics viewpoint, since the pec minor is under the pec maj,( and enveloped by a fascia), it is not visible in a most muscular pose, nor a side chest pose, nor any pose at that. Pec minor tends to depress the point of the scapula (tip of the coracoid process). You could develop this muscle with any movement involving movement of the scapula with respect to the ribcage e.g. pullovers (dumbell or rope). But you will not be able to SEE it developing simply because it lies beneath the pec maj (which is ostentatiously large in most of you). The fact that many speak of different methods of developing upper and lower pecs stems from the fact that the pectoralis major has such a wide region of origin that it is possible to divide it. Allow me to elaborate : The UPPER pec can be taken as the part of the pec maj taking origin from the inner 1/3 of the clavicle, the manubrium, the upper 1/2 of the sternum and the 2nd and 3rd costal cartilage. The LOWER pec can be taken as the part originating from the lower 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th costal cartilages. I divide it this way because the pec minor takes origin from 3rd 4th and 5th ribs. The part of the pec maj above this area is elevated slightly by the belly of the pec minor. Thus, you can see a LOWER pec, and above this, where the belly of the pec minor is less prominent, the UPPER pec. When training is considered, the incline press will hit the Upper pec, while the flat will hit the Lower pec. To hit the lowermost region, try Declines. The reasoning is this : the part of the pec hit most will be the part perpendicular to the arms. In Flats : middle-lower part is perpen. to arms. In Inclines : upper pec is perpen In Declines : the lowest part is perpen. -- Archangel a Med Student on holiday... ---------------------------------------------- From ROBO Tue Jun 10 17:12:15 PDT 1997 After one too many stiff root beers jburnell@jps.net (Deepsquatter) belched the following : >On 20 May 1997 22:44:12 GMT, abperciv@newstand.syr.edu (Anthony B. >Percival) wrote: > >>Lately everything I've read says that that when you benchpress your elbows >>are (while in the down position) to be parallel to the floor, I guess this >>means that your elbows and forearms should form a 90 degree angle. Actually, I've always found that the most productive bench press techniue to be as follows (here I'm about to get obnoxiously picky) this is maximized for pectoral involvement. Do these right, and you can throw the incline press out the window. Also, this is NOT a powerlifting style, by any stretch. That's a different class entirely. Do it this way, and you'll get better pec development. 1. 4 points of contact: left foot, right foot, ass, shoulders. These are to touch the bench (feet on ground) at ALL times. You're not fucking the air. Don't throw your hips into the air. Don't look side to side. 2. Tuck your shoulderblades underneath your body. They should be pulled inward so they touch, then downward (toward your hips) This will force your chest outward (upward) so that you can optimally train your CHEST, not your front delts, and will give you a proper natural arch to your lower back. This also stabilizes your rotator cuff a bit more, so that only one end (the insertion) moves, and the other end (the origin) is stable. 3. Hand spacing - When your humerus is in line with the body (bar not quite touching the chest) on the way down, your elbow should be at a 90% bend. That is, when your upper arms are parallel to the floor, your forearms are pointing straight up and down, and your wrists form a line with your elbows that points straight into the ground at a 90% angle. Godamn, that is a pain to explain, much easier to show. 4. The bar should be lowered at a steady speed, then touch your chest lightly. Maintain tension in your pecs at all times. In other words, DON'T BOUNCE THE FRIGGIN' BAR OFF YOUR CHEST!!!! The bar should touch about 2/3 of the way up your sternum (breastbone). Then return in an almost straight line to the lockout position (like I said, this doesn't apply for powerlifting.) This will develop your chest muscles maximally. It cuts out your front delts to an extent, so at first, your poundages will drop. However, this technique WORKS. Your chest will overcompensate for the lack of deltoid involvement, and will grow ridiculously. Also, you will no longer need the incline press. The reason the incline press works the upper pecs has nothing to do with angle and everything to do with how you move the bar and especially where the bar touches (i.e. high on the chest) Your pecs will be sore as hell, if you do it right. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to study this page, email with any questions, then dedicate an entire chest workout to it. Sets of 8-10 for starters. Use a weight similar to your incline bench press weight. Do as many sets as you can reasonably perform. Generally, you can probably substitute this exercise for half your total sets for ches, although don't quote me on this, as I have NO idea how you work your chest, or any of your body, for that mattert. Do no other motions on that day, so you can be sure you know how you reacted to the exercise. ROBO email to beare@mindspring.com, if you wish. From: ROBO (ROBO) Subject: Re: isolating pecs Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 09:26:47 GMT After one too many stiff root beers bren96@aol.com (Bren96) belched the following : >you guys might want to try the guillotine press. i've had a lot of good >workouts with this exercise. the name says it all. use maybe 70% of what >you normally would bench for like 8 reps, this time, lower the bar (slowly >of course) down to your neck, pause it (do not bounce) on your adam's >apple, then raise it up like a normal bench press. when i do these, i >feel it deep in the pecs, it seems to be a lot better than the regular >style. if you want to up the intensity further, i suggest doing about 6 >or 7 of these giullotines, followed by pushups to failure on the floor, >with your hands gripping hex dumbbells. lata -Brendan Sounds like a shoulder ripper to me. Better have wicked flexible shoulders. I can see where it would thrash your chest though. I do my benches pretty high on my sternum, and it definitely makes a difference. You can still beat your pecs, and save your shoulder joint by lowering the bar to about 2/3 up your sternum. ROBO email to beare@mindspring.com, if you wish. From: TBS Subject: Re: Bench strength deterioration Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 19:39:33 -0500 Trevor wrote: > > On 17 Jun 1997 05:16:28 GMT, sswain@rand.ecel.uwa.edu.au (Stuart Swain > - undergrad) wrote: > > >Yet another recurring thread in this newsgroup, but I've already > >tried most solutions normally offered here. > > > >I had a great bench session somewhere around 8-10 months ago. Warmed up > >with 130 lbs, then 200x8-10 (no assistance). Work sets were 265x4 (3rd > >assisted, 4th forced rep), followed by 240x4 (4th assisted), then 220x6 > >(5th & 6th assisted). Felt good because I was on the up and it smashed > >my previous bests. (Btw, by assisted I mean a slight spot, and by forced > >I mean I needed a heavy spot) > > > >I haven't had a good bench day since then. In fact now I have trouble > >getting out 6 reps on 200 (need the spot on the 6th). Now I don't care > >what anyone in the gym thinks, but I feel really bad knowing I used to > >bench much more (I should be benching 265x8 by now, if not more). > > > What are you eating daily and how much sleep do you get? > > *trevorcoverley@mindspring.com Also, what else is going on in your life that wasn't 8-10 months ago? When I was in undergraduate engineering school, I found that my workouts suffered severely during finals or around tests, projects, et cetera due to my lack of concentration in the gym. I have been lifting for fourteen years and I have found that it is very difficult to continue strong gains in size or strength for an extended period of time (I usually plateau 1 to 2 times per year). Of course, I have always been drug free - it may not be the case for a steroid user. From ROBO Wed Jun 18 06:17:56 PDT 1997 After sucking down a flaxseed-contaminated Designer Protein diesel93@aol.com (Diesel 93) spewed the following multicolored chunks: >mmainelli@aol.com (Mmainelli) wrote: > >>If you want to increase your bench press you have to work with heavier >>weight at lower reps. Such as 5 sets of 5 or 4 sets of 6. > >I find that 3 sets of 6-8 works best. Everyone responds differenlty. There >is no best way to increase you bench press as long as you're not using > >12 reps. > yeah, I like to do something similar, but instead of doing multiple sets, I'll do an extended rest/pause style set. use a weight you can handle for 5-6 reps max, and go to failure with it. Rack the bar. Rest about 30 seconds (I take 10 slow breaths and concentrate on what I'm about to do) then do another set to failure, usually 2-3 reps, rack the bar again, rest again as above. Continue like this until you can only get 1 repetition. I'll do these with my typical bench presses, and close grips also, switching back and forth from one workout to another which exercise I do first. After about 6 weeks, you'll se a definite strenght gain, and you'll have a bigger set of hooters to boot! I like to finish off the workout, incidentally, with weighted parallel bar dips. Ahhh sweet agony - the lure of heavy IRON. Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we go to SQUAT!!!!! grow or die ROBO email to beare@mindspring.com, if you wish. For replies via email, just check the address and adjust accordingly. From deadlift@pipeline.com Sat Jul 12 08:24:09 PDT 1997 In article <33C38B4E.705A@on-it.net>, rspector@*spamprotect*on-it.net wrote: >Paul Becker wrote: >> >> cpace wrote: >> > >> > I work out at home. >> > What is a good routine for the lower chest ? >> >> Dips between chairs will give your lower chest a great workout at home. > >I'm sorry, but please explain to me where the "lower chest" muscle is >located? > >And why is it that performance of exercises that are deemed to be "lower >chest" movements result in the ENTIRE pectoralis major being developed? > >Funny, when I've stuck with a movement like weighted dips for the pecs >(and NO other pec work) the entire pectoral area grows. > >Same thing seems to hold for a number of others I know. > >Stick with a basic movement (1-2 exercises) for the pecs, and you won't >go wrong. I personally like the Hammer Iso-Incline + decline presses. > I perform 2 chest exercises per workout. My current mainstays are flat DB bench press, Hammer Iso-decline, Dips, and flyes on the rear delt machine. Peace, Tom Goodwin >All personal preference. -- Michigan Militia Posse The posse come quick cause the posse got velocity! From ziemaar@CHEM.LEIDENUNIV.NL Sat Jul 12 08:27:52 PDT 1997 Mike Bordynuik wrote: > > [note: if replying through email, please remove the text before > mb94cp@badger.. (for the avoidance of junk-email!)] > > I'm trying to double my weight on the bench press but have been stuck > at 1.65x for the longest time. Although my genetics aren't the best, I > should be able to accomplish this since I'm only in my mid-20's and am > commited towards it. > > The major problem that I've been having is that my left shoulder is > starting to kill me when lifting heavier weights.. this usually requires > about a week of resting the bench before starting again; trying to "work > it out" only aggrevates it. >Unfortunately for now, my routine has been changed to 7-9 > sets of 225 with about 7 reps each (on the flat bench) for 2-3 > times/week. > > I would be grateful for any information (ie: particular exercises, > warmups, routines) from people who have managed to double their weight. > > Thanks, > Mike 7 to 9 sets, 2-3 times per week and you're surprised that your shoulder hurts? You should be glad it hasn't fallen off already. There is no need to train 3x/week and it will be impossible to improve your bench press with an injured shoulder. You might want to try Ed Coans bench press routine (don't have the URL, but should be easy to find with a search engine). This means benching heavy once a week and an easy workout once a week. But make sure your shoulder is okay before continuing any training. If you injure your shoulder now really badly, you will never reach your full potential. Good luck, Martyn From r.vromen@student.utwente.nl Sat Jul 12 08:28:15 PDT 1997 Mike Bordynuik wrote: > > [note: if replying through email, please remove the text before > mb94cp@badger.. (for the avoidance of junk-email!)] > > I'm trying to double my weight on the bench press but have been stuck > at 1.65x for the longest time. Although my genetics aren't the best, I > should be able to accomplish this since I'm only in my mid-20's and am > commited towards it. > > The major problem that I've been having is that my left shoulder is > starting to kill me when lifting heavier weights.. this usually requires > about a week of resting the bench before starting again; trying to "work > it out" only aggrevates it. > > I used start off at 135pds for about 8 reps and then jumped into the > heavier sets around 275+.. I've also been working the shoulders as I > understand their is supposed to be some correlation between the bench > and delts. Unfortunately for now, my routine has been changed to 7-9 > sets of 225 with about 7 reps each (on the flat bench) for 2-3 > times/week. > > I would be grateful for any information (ie: particular exercises, > warmups, routines) from people who have managed to double their weight. > > Thanks, > Mike Well, I'll try to give some suggestions. Have you ever thought about training less? 7-9 sets for 2-3 times a week is so much work, I wonder when you think your muscles will recover. No wonder your shoulder is giving you troubles. Since you didn't tell how and when your shoulder hurts, it's hard to guess what's the matter there, but you might consider seeing a physical therapist. And since your shoulder already hurts, I would not aggrevate it by doing presse behind the neck. It's been known to hurt your rotator-cuff because off the stretch when the bar is behind your neck. Anyway, these are the tips I would give you to increase your Bench Press: - Start doing less bench presses. At this point, it is very likely that you are overtraining, and not just mildly. My suggestion would be to bench heavily only once a week. Warm up doing just a few reps at some lower weights, and then do just a few work sets with your heavy weight to failure. Then do the same at a 30 deg. Incline. That'll stimulate your chest enough. - For shoulders, unless a physical therapist tells you otherwise, try doing heavy dummbell presses. they are the best way to increase pressing power in your shoulders, and this way the shoulder joint stays in a more natural position compared to other shoulder pressing exercises. - For Triceps, do close grip bench presses and/or heavy upright dips. These increase the pressing power of your triceps immensely, which for sure will increase your bench press. - If there is someone available at your gym who knows about them, you might consider letting him show you some rotator-cuff strengthening exercises. A strong rotator-cuff will improve your bench press power. But most important of all: don't overtrain, so definitely train less than you you are doing now. I suggest you do the pressing exercises I mentioned above once a week, and no more. Good luck, Roel From: Diesel93@aol.com Subject: Re: Bench Press Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 17:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Frank L. Palmeri" wrote: > There was an article in a recent "Mens Journal" magazine about the bench > press. This is from that article: I don't suppose they ever have articles about the Deadlift or Squat in that mag, do they? > "...if your boss asks you how much you bench, you'd still better have a > number handy. Here's a quick guide: Bench your weight once and you're > respectable. Bench it 10 times and you'll either get promoted or fired. > Double your weight once and you'll be asked to perform at the company > picnic." Well, I'd say that's pretty far off. More like: 1x BW (1rm) --You Suck BW x 10 reps --> about 1.325 BW 1RM -- Fair; No reason to promote or fire. 1.50xBW (1rm) -- Respectable 1.75xBW (1rm) -- Lift at the company picnic 2xBW (1rm) -- Lift at the USAPL (adfpa) Nationals > Well, I weigh 189 and last night I benched 190 for 10 reps, so I guess > it's time for a raise or a pink slip! But serioulsly, this same article > said to maximize your gains, you should bench twice a week, 3 sets of 5 > - 8 reps one session, and 3 sets of 8 - 12 reps the other. I like that idea; one day you optimally hit your Type 1 fibers (high rep day) and the other (low rep day) you hit optimally hit your Type 2 fibers. Although you hit type 1 fibers too, they will not be stimulated as much since you need a higher time under maximal tension to nail those Type 1s good. Training this way should also help prevent hitting the same fiber with maximum intensity too often. A good way to prevent overtraining in the bench press; IMHO. > I've not been doing that, I've been using the same set/rep combination > for each of my 2 bench press workouts each week, but I have heard about > "heavy" days and "light" days in weight training. Is there a good reason > to train this way? When is a good time to train a movement with a heavy > and light day? Should all your movements in a workout be trained this > way, or maybe only one or two? Just try it and see how it works for you; not much, if anything, to loose. --Eric Adolph http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/9311 From gt2618a@prism.gatech.edu Wed Sep 10 12:38:13 PDT 1997 White Ligthning wrote: > > How close should the grip be for close bar bench press to get it to > isolate the triceps? it seems that my gym partner and i can close grip > almost as much as we bench and i dont know if i am doing it wrong.. cos > i didnt think my tri;s were that strong.. if anyone could give me some > advice it would be much apreciated. > White lightning > -- I hold my hands about 4 inches apart on close grip bench. I do about half as much as I bench. Experiment until you find a distance that feel like you are really working the tri's. From bhrtzbrg@dreamscape.com Wed Sep 10 12:38:35 PDT 1997 In article <9E39E8B3DD7A0B30.84C9618270661A2B.2E12DD75A9E00EAB@library-proxy.airnews.net> , White Ligthning wrote: >Mark Johnson wrote: >> >> White Ligthning wrote: >> > >> > How close should the grip be for close bar bench press to get it to >> > isolate the triceps? it seems that my gym partner and i can close grip >> > almost as much as we bench and i dont know if i am doing it wrong.. cos >> > i didnt think my tri;s were that strong.. if anyone could give me some >> > advice it would be much apreciated. >> > White lightning >> > -- >> I hold my hands about 4 inches apart on close grip bench. I do about >> half as much as I bench. Experiment until you find a distance that feel >> like you are really working the tri's. >i have tried that close.. but i messes with my wrists. It will depend on how wide your shoulders and clavicles are. Remember when you close grip bench for triceps you bring the bar down to your sternum, the bottom of your pecs and push the bar straight up. If you're bringing the bar down to the middle of your pecs then you're working your pecs too. From: fstanbach@aol.com (FStanbach) Subject: Re: bench press question Date: 13 Sep 1997 16:18:59 GMT On Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:32:50 -0700, Kelly McMillan wrote: >They would have to prove to me why the Smith machine puts more stress on >your rotator cuff than a straight bar. It has not been my personal >experiance. >As a matter of point, a majority of rotator cuff injuries occur when the >forearm is parallel to the torso as opposed to perpendicular as they are >during a bench press. What about the movement restricted or >unrestricted places stress on the "cuff" itself. >Not saying that it doesn't stress the shoulder but specifically the >"cuff", explain it to me. Big >Mac >It's not so much damage to the rotator cuff specifically that is the >smith machine press' fault, but rather the fact that involve so little >of the stabilizing muscle groups (comparitively) to the bench press >that what Paul Chek terms as "Pattern Overload Syndrome" can develop. >n addition, the prime movers that ARE involved in the smith machine >bench press are ultimately limited by the fact that the stabilizers >are not concurrently developed. A weakness in the stabilizing muscle >groups apparently sends a signal to the CNS to limit the innervation >of motor units in the prime movers. What this means is that although >your pectorals may be capable of generating a great amount of force, >ultimately they will be limited by the strength of the stabilizers. As >the old adage goes a chain is only as good as its weakest link. And >excessive reliance upon the smith machine bench press will cause this >functional strength deficit to grow worse and worse. >The external rotators are typically the muscles torn during rotator >cuff injuries and are involved in rotating the humerous externally. >This is not particularly possible during smith machine bench presses. >However, it is not as though you are *trying* to involve your rotator >cuff in the aforementioned fashion. Nonetheless, they are limited >because the pathway and horizontal movement of the bar is fixed. And a >person never says, "Well, I'm going to go work my supraspinatus >today." They typically only focus on the large, well known and visible >muscles. Utilizing less stable exercises - such as the aforementioned >Swiss Ball bench presses, etc. - involve more stabilizing muscle >groups and thus build safer physiques with "more" usable strength. The >more stabilizers involved, the more realistic that strength is. It is >rare that one is ever in a strength related situation where the >endeavour is purely reciprocal to that of the efforts in the gym - >i.e. while the squat is the best lower body exercise, and a drive >block in football is somewhat similar, there are many more muscles at >play than just those used in the squat. Hence one has to utilize both >the squat and drive block practice to get the optimal combination of >training for performance. This also means that the body is inherently >"safer" since all muscles involved in the actual endeavour are >prepared for the work they must endure. >Personally, I don't think a person can go wrong with a regimen of >bench presses, dumbbell presses, and specific rotator cuff work. >Variation is key, and I don't think that anyone should limit the >sources of exposure they can obtain in training. Certain exercises, of >course, work better than others (for the individual), but I think that >one should try to pick from a pool of exercises that provide a broad >scope of development and implement them periodically. This way, any >imbalances can be avoided and problems don't become so large that they >pose serious threats to the athlete's well being. Here is a quote from this months issue of muscle media on benching writen by-guess who- charles poliquin . " The second most common training error is moving the bar through an improper pathway. If your primary interest is in training longevity, forget the concept of pressing the bar in a straight "up and down" fashion. Although this style may allow you to lift more weight initially, it's pure murder on your shoulders. The tendons of the four rotator cuff muscles, along with the long head of the biceps brachii, can be easily strained as they try to stabilize the bar. The subacromial bursae (fluid-filled sacs in the shoulder which help reduce friction in the joint) also take a beating. In fact, many orthopedic surgeons agree this style of benching is responsible for the necessity of count-less surgical procedures. Another high-risk technical error I commonly see is benching too high, so the bar is lowered to a point above the base of the sternum. Now, it's true bringing the bar up to the clavicles brings about some additional recruitment of muscle fibers in the clavicular pectoralis (upper chest region), but it also exposes the acromioclavicular joint (where your collar bone and shoulder come together) to more stress. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever use this style, but benching in the more conventional, technically correct manner is more conducive to training longevity" again, if you ain't got the arc, your shoulder is gona be ripped apart. The smith machine does not allow the arc. Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:53:58 -0600 From: Garry Holmen Subject: Re: Tris and Delts >I followed the "common wisdom" that tris and delts don't need much specific >work, if you do a lot of pressing movements (bench, incline, millitary, etc.) For >my last 3 cycles (~24 weeks) I've really been hitting tris and delts hard with extra >work (french press varieties, plate raises, laterals, .....). When I started this I >thought that it was way too much work, but lo and behold my bench has gone >way up. My shoulders have never felt better (this coming from a guy who has >torn his rotator cuff once, and injured it another time). All I can say Darcy is... I told you so. As Darcy's workout partner I had to really push him to add more delt work and tricep work into our bench press and assistant bench press days. He was afraid that he would be overtraining, wouldn't get enough recovery and that he would just hurt his shoulder again. But I knew from my own experimentation (when Darcy moved to Calgary and I was training alone in Vancouver) that the main reason I failed in bench press were due to poor anterior deltoid and tricep strength. And by targeting those two areas along with working on perfecting my bench form my bench numbers have continued to climb. I'm up another 20lbs over the past 6 week cycle. (Which is great for me because at 6'1" and 205 lbs I'm not built for bench press.) Garry From fstanbach@aol.com Fri Sep 26 21:28:30 PDT 1997 brain wrote: >I have been using a basic pyramid set on bench. >135x10 >225x10 >275x8 >315x6 >275x10 >225x10 >(stretch) >I seem to be peaking out with this program. I am trying to get my bench >to >405lbs. >Does anyone have any suggestions? What is the typical program for >increasing your strength on the Bench Press. I can workout 2 maybe 3 >times >a week now. >Usually Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I have to cram it in on the weekend. I'm guessing here, but it seems like your training to failure on sets 4 , 5, and not on 6. One thing to consider in the future is not to do so many reps on your warm up sets. I would only do 45 x10, 45 x 3, 135x3, 225 x 3, 275 x 1, 315 x 1,and then get to the work sets. For work sets in your current rep range I would do 315 x 6, for four sets, and I would only allow at max of 1 rep drop between sets with full recovery(like 5 min between sets) to determine if I should do the next set. What I mean is if you get 315 for 6 reps on set one and then on set two after 5 min you can only do 4 reps stop doing the bench for that day since it is an awsome predictor of overtraining(poliquin's pricipal of point of critical drop off). BUT it seems you have become stuck in a rut at your current rep range, and you want to do something different. Why don't you try 6 sets of 3-4 reps? So try this. Warm up with 45x10,45x3,135x3, 225x3, 275x1,330x1, and then start your work sets; try 330 x 4 for 6 sets with about 6-8 min rest between sets. I understand that a consideral amount of time between sets so you could work you antagonist muscles between rest periods. So do 330 x 4, wait 2 min and then do a weight you can handle for 4 reps on the rows, and then wait 4 min and do bench again. If your a real animal your could squeze curls in between sets too. Since these muscles are antagonist to the bench they will *reduce* fatigue between bench sets. When you reach your goal of 6 sets of 4 reps each with 330 move up in weight. Good luck. Don't forget the point of critical drop off and buy a stopwatch. From: "Jeffery J.O. Cilione" Subject: RE: Rotator-Cuff Exercise Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:28:04 -0700 Robert Van Horn said: > For me, my shoulders have always been my biggest problem area. I >have had a hard time getting them built up to a level that I am happy >with, so the thought of not doing a shoulder press for at least seven >weeks was disheartening to say the least. I have substituted dumbbell >shoulder presses for the "rotator cuff exercises" and have never >regretted not finding out what I was missing. But, I would still be >interested in learning what they are. may i say, BIG MISTAKE!!! substituting any shoulder exercise for rotator cuff exercises is a no-no. i too just completed the MM2K bench program, as a precursor to getting into powerlifting (added 20 lbs to my very weak bench, so i'm kinda' pleased). i found the need to incorporate rotator-cuff exercises a must. there is considerable stress and strain placed on the rotator-cuff in particular, and the entire shoulder girdle in general when doing heavy benching. adding d.b. presses only adds more stress and strain (take it from one who is dealing with a slight rotator cuff problem at the moment. i've taken a couple of weeks off from lifting and am dealing with massage, acupunture, and chiropratic theropies as well as rotator cuff exercises). incorporating these exercises into your program can help reduce the chance of what i, and many others, are suffering with. substituting them with regular shoulder exercises is, i'll say it again, A BIG MISTAKE!!! i won't bother explaining what rotator-cuff exercises are (i'll leave that to those more knowlegable on this list). what i will say is that if you have never done them you should start out with dumbells no heavier than 5 pounds (yes--FIVE pounds). if you really want to learn about these exercises and how to do them (and i suggest that you do) a great book to get is THE 7-MINUTE ROTATOR CUFF SOULTION by J. Horrigan and J. Robinson. it's published by health for life (800/874-5339) and sells for $19.95. (ISBN 0-944831-25-7). as for getting your shoulders to a "level that [you are] happy with," you got your whole life to do that. screw up your rotator cuff and and you can kiss your shoulders goodbye for a long time. Jeffery Cilione/inkedbear@wn.net/Provincetown, Mass. From cconnell@utdallas.edu Tue Dec 2 21:59:23 PST 1997 Ah ¡ (raymondwu@usa.net) wrote: : hi there, : i am new in this group. i weigh 160 lb and 26 years old. i am wondering : how much weight i should be pressing. currently, i am pressing about 100lb : and i am able to do 40 inclined pusthups. please email. : thanks for reading, : raymond. : -- : email: raymondwu@usa.net : web: http://www.shsu.edu/~stdrsw11 : icq: 3959528@pager.mirabilis.com their are many one this group who are most likely average and many others who are mst likely statistical outliers when it comes to such matters. for the average person, if you can press your body weight (1x) you are strong by my standards. You are most likely much stronger than any person who does not workout or train in any facet. When you can press 1.5x your are very strong. When you can press 2x your body weight you are extremely strong (again compared to the person who does not train with resistance exercise) A person that can press more than 2x his bodyweight is probably at the top 99% of all strength athletes. This is were competivie powerlifting starts...