Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:21:37 -0500 From: Wade Subject: Football & Drugs This is in response mostly to Tom McCullough (hope that is right-sorry if it is misspelled). I'm sorry if you found my view disturbing, I responded to Jeff, also had a contradictory post, and apologized for the sweeping generalization. I don't intend to try and argue majority or minority of players. That was not my point in the first post but, I admit my presentation was not too well done. Let me just throw some things out there and let's see what you all think. I also am acquainted with some former NFL players and a whole bunch of Div I-A College players, in fact my old defensive coordinator is an Assistant with a Pro team right now! Many of the guys I played College ball with are now Coaches ranging from small to large high-schools. So I have a small network to get some information from that doesn't come through politically correct channels. Look back at the NFL in the 70's and early 80's. You had some serious steroid users in this time period. How do I know? Because they have admitted to it. Lyle Alzado, John Matuzak (sp), Steve Courson, etc. In a book written by Joe Klecko in 1989 titled "Nose to Nose: Survival in the trenches" he states the use at 67-70% in 1987!! Some of the people I have talked to put the percentage at a conservative 35-40%. Now come the late 80's early 90's you get the push to ban steroids and they become a schedule III drug. Public perception goes down and thus they aren't as accepted as they were 20-30 years ago. With the time frame you start to see a lot of thyroid problems and ligament injuries much more frequently than before. Players start getting no drug clauses in their contracts and they have a lot to lose if caught. Pressure is still there to perform and to bring in the crowds...win. Most players today will not ever admit to steroid use. They have too much to lose. So of course the players will say they are not using anymore and a lot of guys don't. A friend of mine who is former NFL and an All-American says his acquaintances put use in the NFL around 10-20%. This is mostly centered around lineman and trench dwellers. IMO the best place to play football anyway. : ') The use was generally reserved to the younger players in the league trying to get established. I think the phrase..."age and treachery will overcome youth and vigor" is applicable there. Tom wrote... > You don't know too much about football players then. Actually, I do. High-school and College ball with invites to Pro combines. Lots of friends who coach and have helped coach. Not the most knowledgeable by far but, more so than a good many. > I am an offensive line >football coach (and have been for years). > Kids are getting bigger and bigger >each year. It is NOT uncommon to find quite a few 300 lb men >and boys to >play O-line every year. I coach a Division 5-A high school team >here in >Texas. All of my linemen (offensive and defensive) are in the 285 >lbs to 325 >lb range. There are many teams that we play that even have >linemen that are >in the 325 to 350 range. One of them has even listed their 350 lb, >6'6" >senior lineman as running the 40 in 5.0 s. (I sure wonder about >that, 5.0 is >damn fast for a 350 lb man). What DO you eat in Texas? > But remember, these are 17 and 18 year olds. >Now, give these kids 4 to 5 more years in a great college strength >and >conditioning program and they will really be monsters. None of >these kids are >on steroids. I don't mean to imply they are using drugs but, how do you know they are clean or have always been clean? Drug tests are very easy to beat especially if it is a ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. In a book by Dr. Robert Voy, former Chief Medical Officer of the Olympic Committee, titled: "Drugs, Politics and Sports" he states in 1984 and 1985 US Olympic testing, with ample forewarning, found only 1% steroid use. In the same years they conducted tests on the same athletes but, guaranteed no sanctions against the athletes for their results. 50% were found positive in these tests. Granted this is a different scale but, the IOC supposedly has the most advanced testing and when the athletes wanted to beat the test, most did. Steroids are dirt cheap in Mexico and very plentiful so I would assume Texas has as easy access as Southern California. I was stationed in San Diego and have been to Tijuana. You could buy whatever you want for dirt prices. Like I said, I'm not refuting your classification on these kids nor do I even know them, just curious how you got the assurance they are/have been clean the whole time? Please don't consider this an affront, I'm just curious how you concluded that. >They are just genetically big humans who work their butts off in >the weight room. These are the same kids that Division I-A >universities >recruit and the same ones that go on to play in the pros. Best of luck to them. It is a tough road but, can offer some very substantial rewards ($$$). >Have kids gotten bigger over the years. Perhaps they have. I >certainly don't >remember any 250 pounders when I played high school football. >But that was 26 >years ago. In fact, most of our lineman were just over 200 lbs. >Now days, >most of these kids have played organized football since they >could walk and >have been on some pretty serious school weightlifting programs >since they were >12 years old. When I played High School ball, about 10 years ago, we had one 300 lb kid in our Class A league. 6-8 and 300# as far as I know he was clean but, I never got to talk to him. He had a sub 5.0 40 as well (I want to say a 4.8, not sure though), not too bright though and unfortunately wasn't able to use his size for College athletics. Have kids gotten bigger...most definitely. I'll expound on that a little farther down. A former NFL'er and friend of mine has a son who is a top 5 recruit in the country right now. He has filled me in on a lot of the behind the scenes stuff. According to him, most Div 1-A schools frown on the steroid use. Lots of money even in College so they don't want damaged goods. Yes, some organizations look at players as goods too, not all, maybe very few but, some. Anyway, the trend has been to have the kids use the drugs in high school for a couple years and build strong foundations. Get to College and clean up then utilize the advanced training and rehab etc. I know this is going to get response so let me finish. This is what was told to me, it is by no means the absolute methodology. Many kids do get to the pro and stay clean...they are hard working and genetically gifted. Some kids make it there by way of drug assistance. I don't know how many nor will I venture to guess but, it is well documented that steroid use is up among teens, as young as 12-14! What bothers me about this is that it happens! Some years maybe not, some years more than others but, it happens. I won't rant about the travesty of that whole mess. It is misguided ambition to say the least. >Obviously you have never worked with athletes. Not only have I worked with em', I am one. > I see great athletes grow up >ever year, without the help of drugs. Of course they do get a little >help >along the way....from all their great coaches. I see it too. Gotta' love the coaches...mine were very helpful. >I not going to preach about drugs because that is a personal >choice. However, >I will say that your view of reality is very much distorted. I don't think so. Just because your information differs from mine does nothing to invalidate the truthfulness of what I say. I have no reason to present falsities. This list is available to pass information and knowledge along. If something is not acceptable then disregard it. I make no claim to absolute knowledge nor have I not cited where I get my claims in this post (if I have missed any please let me know and I will correct the oversight). Some is personal experience, some is secondhand information, and some come from books and articles so use it as you will. I agree that drugs are a personal choice and I don't intend to pass judgement on anyone. I am concerned about my lifting and for the most part no one else's. I don't agree that steroids are as minimally utilized as so many want to believe. They are here because they work and work well. It is relatively easy to obtain and the methodology to fool drug tests is readily available as well. > Most athletes >great or not so great do not use drugs to get that way. I have a >damn good >total as a powerlifter and compete in the SHW class. I'm drug >free. That is because most athletes realize the false promise of steroids. Some however, do not and succumb to the lure of quick gains and athletic prowess. I too am very proud of my 275# class total and progress to date. I'm drug free and have no aspiration of using drugs. As I mentioned earlier, in some private e-mail I apologized for the sweeping statements of majority and minority of users. In the interim I have done some reading and let the information there dictate. I won't bother to quote anymore numbers because I'm sure there are just as many articles with vastly different claims. One starter reference I will recommend to everyone is Optimum Sports Nutrition by Michael Colgan. I don't claim expert status nor do I have any doctorates, other than a basement BS in weightlifting (knowledge is constantly flowing in so I don't think I have a Masters or Ph.D. yet...down the road I should think ). This book however, seems to be well written and cites a great number of sources. He has a section on steroids that will taint even the most pessimistic of athletes. Virtual plethora of avenues for further research. Any one else read it? Curious about the opinions of some of our more learned list members. Okay, I realize I have rambled on for a long while here and I offer my apologies for the length. Complex topic though. The last theory I want to throw out for discussion is concerning the continual growth of people since WWII. No doubt people are getting bigger naturally. I don't refute that at all. Why is that? A theory was proposed to me from a Sociology class stating it is related to the food. We have an abundance of food and for the most part it is pretty nutritious and of good quality. Here's the kicker. Chickens and cows we are eating are being treated with steroids by the farmers to grow bigger animals and thus maximize their investment. A bigger cow begets a bigger market price. In essence, according to this theory, great many people are ingesting steroid enhanced foods. This is just a theory and I mention it because I am interested in what everyone thinks. I don't know if I subscribe to it or not. Reading Jeff Schiffel's post on Friday Dec. 5 he cites a number of other factors very relevant to increased size in athletes. What about the rest of the people though, it kind of gives a morsel of credence to the aforementioned theory. Of course, in 1954 John Ziegler helped to introduce steroids into America for athletic purposes. Does anyone think that the use of drugs since post WWII has influenced the size of offspring and future generations? I just thought of that one, pure conjecture. I hope this has been a better representation. I like to think most NFL players are clean. It makes the sport more fun to follow. I just wouldn't be surprised to find out they weren't. In truth, it didn't really surprise me when Ed Coan got busted. Is controversial and I won't even start. Nevertheless, it was no surprise. I like to think positive but, prepare for the worst. Best wishes for the holidays and good lifting! Mark H.