From jj@my-weights.com Wed Jan 6 21:15:13 PST 1999 Dear experts, My current deadlift cycle is going great, but when finished with my last set, I am experiencing a 3-5 second period of fairly severe light-headedness. I notice that it seems to be partially due to the fact that the back of my neck is tightening up. I keep breathing throughout --- I never hold my breath --- but still the dizziness occurs as soon as I end the last set. Is this normal? I don't want to quit the cycle, just when I am about to get that 5-10 lb gain, but I don't want to hurt myself either. Suggestions?? Thx, From giles@centuryinter.net Wed Jan 6 21:15:26 PST 1999 Sounds like hyperventilating. You may want to try holding your breath during the initial pulling phase of each rep until you've at least cleared your knees with the bar. This will also help to keep your midsection tight during this tough part of the lift. Jeffrey T. Miller wrote in message ... >Dear experts, > >My current deadlift cycle is going great, but when finished with my last >set, I am experiencing a 3-5 second period of fairly severe >light-headedness. >I notice that it seems to be partially due to the fact that the back of my >neck is tightening up. > >I keep breathing throughout --- I never hold my breath --- but still the >dizziness >occurs as soon as I end the last set. > >Is this normal? > >I don't want to quit the cycle, just when I am about to get that 5-10 lb >gain, but >I don't want to hurt myself either. > >Suggestions?? > Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:22:07 -0500 From: Big Daddy B Subject: Re: Strength_List: Deadlifting. I agree with Keith in that it is probably best to refocus after each rep to mimic meet condtions. Also, I am not sure of multiple reps because unlike the bench and the squat the dead has really no eccentric phase in meet competion because all you do is pick it up for a good lift. So, the benefit of numerous reps and working the eccentric phase is not of great benefit. Perhaps a set of singles is best. Thanks, GB Keith Hobman wrote: > John wrote, > > >I am a bit lost guys. My favorite and probably strongest lift is my > >deadlift, but I have a little problem trying to workout what is the best > >way to do it. Most people I speak to say that it is best to let the > >weight completely touch and rest on the floor before starting the next > >rep. > >rep. > > > >However, I have been experinmenting and have found that if I don't let > >the weight touch the ground (i.e hold it at about an inch off the ground > >between each rep I can get more reps out of my set and I feel a bigger > >pump at the end of the set. My training partner says that I can get more > >reps out of it because the most of the work is getting the weight of the > >floor, which I agree with. I can dead 405 for 5 reps letting the rest > >and about 7 while keeping tension on and not letting it rest. > > > >If anyone can help me with this, I would love to hear some your opinions > >and/or suggestions. > > > I don't worry much about a pump as an indication of workout effectiveness. > I would recommend stopping and setting for each rep. This is both because > that is what you would do in a competition and it allows you to refocus on > safe technique after ever rep. You can handle so much weight in the > deadlift that poor technique or perhaps I should say sloppy technique can > cause injury very quickly. > > Just my 02 tho - I've seen people do it both ways who are excellent > deadlifters ... > > - Keith Hobman Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:36:47 -0500 From: Wade Hanna Subject: Strength_List: Deadlifting. -Reply All you are doing by not stopping in between reps is increasing your endurance. The idea behind stopping each rep and starting again is that you simulate the loading process that occurs for a single rep. DL is unique in the Powerlifts in that you start from an "unloaded" position. It requires great starting strength because you have to maximally load a great number of muscles from scratch to start the lift. When you perform reps you aren't practicing that and you are keeping constant tension on the muscles that normally don't start out under tension. I can bang out a ton of reps if I don't unload after each rep, but I get better results when I practice like I play. (for kicks...try doing bottom-up squats...bar on the rack at the bottom of the motion, to see what a squat is like starting from an unloaded position) I believe that a factor in the slow start of DL's is the fact that you have to load up all the musculature before you can really heave the weight. Start too fast (read: jerk) and you are open for injury. This can form from doing loaded reps because you get used to immediately turning the weight around (using a form of strecth reflex) and you can't do this in a meet. Can lead to bad habits. By no means all inclusive, but consider this...when weighing different methods of performing exercises, if you are doing them correctly, I tend to opt for the tougher variation. This way it makes the actual performance seem easier and it also tends to recruit more muscle in the training process (i.e. single DL's, standing for more motions, use big compound movements over small isolative ones, etc). Again, this isn't a rule, but consider it when training so that you can maximize your time in the gym. Nothing worth having ever comes easy...sometimes getting more reps isn't the best answer or best alternative to maximizing your gains. Just a few thoughts... - -wade Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:14:13 EST From: Mcsiff@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: SUMO STYLE In a message dated 22/1/99 2:26:56 PM, JOSEPHBROWN2@fuse.net wrote: <> ***This is a very individual matter, though a change from one style to another invariably causes your maximum weight in any lift to decrease for a while. You can persevere, but the adaptation may take some time, so that any major change should not be done close to any serious competitions. If this perseverance does not make any major differences and competitions are looming close, it may be better to stick with what you feel happier with. Some folk lift more with sumo, others with conventional, so do not feel that you are a bit out of touch with reality if you use a technique that is different from anyone else's. But, whatever you do, try to have an experienced powerlifter watch you and give you guidance during the learning phase - learning on one's own or from a book is never an adequate substitute for a good coach or sharp eye. Technique is exceptionally important, even if some folk think that the slow moves of powerlifting don't require any real skill - just ignore anyone who makes that sort of uneducated comment! You say that you have deadlifted very little - if so, that 600lbs is pretty good and you have nothing to feel bad about. Maybe it is sound idea to persist for a year or so with your own style, since you say that you are fairly new to the DL, and then rethink the issue when you have experimented a bit more. Dr Mel C Siff Colorado, USA mcsiff@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:52:18 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: RE: Strength_List: RE: genetic factors Jim wrote, > >> On a more realistic note, I think as technique improves the deadlifter >> learns how to shrug the shoulder girdle down a bit and pull with what I >> call a 'drop shoulder' position. Jim may already be doing this, but most > >Thats very interesting. Before I was doing the westside routine,I used to >deadlift every week. As I got tired and the weights go heavier, on occasion >the finishing position would be about 1" below my jewels... It is always >difficult to repeat, but it sounds like that "drop shoulder" position you >talk about. > >Any tips on re-producing it at will??? Any special stretching? > I preach what I call 'drop shoulder' to both the lifters I train - constantly. Its not a matter of stretching, its a matter of body position. Its something I also work a lot on myself. However, what you probably did was 'slump' the shoulders, which is a no-no and the opposite of what I refer to as a 'drop shoulder'. My brother and I were benching heavy yesterday - going to a max - and I noticed that as soon as he got to a weight that he knew mentally was near his max his technique went to pot. I've been guilty of doing the same. I think it was Big Daddy who talked about trying to 'bend' the bar on the way down in order to get a good tight position. Excellent idea and technique - it really helps! If you think of 'pulling' the bar down on the bench the chest come out and the shoulders go back and are dropped - like the finish of the row. Bring the bar down in this position - a 'drop shoulder' position - and then drive out of it. What Darren did was allow the shoulders to come up and the chest to drop in his start position. Inadvertently we trained this by doing very heavy rack presses. The rack press becomes an 'racking' exercise. Dropping the chest and extending the shoulders gives leverage at the top of the lift, but it greatly reduces it at the bottom of the lift. To avoid this watch the technique in rack pulls and add the heavy handoffs. We'll be working these in the next cycle. Squat is much the same thing. If the shoulders are back and the chest is out the back stays arched and the lifter avoids that 'round back' feeling. Last the deadlift. Especially conventional lifters tend to start the pull with the shoulders slumped and then 'pull' with the back instead of driving the legs. This leaves the bar further out in front and the lifter gets into that 'round-back' lift. Some lifters are able to do this with great results (Vince Anello and John Kuc come to mind), but for most lifters they are better off using the muscles of the legs and hips to initiate the lift. Drop the shoulders - get the chest out. For sumo lifters it is essential to find this position. If this position can be held the bar stays closer to the body and the leverage is better. I noted from the tapes that when I was lifting in algary in April/98 I didn't hold my position and as a result I had a difficult time finishing the deadlift - something I had never had a problem with. In my case I believe it was from being tired and using a squat suit that was too tight. Jason has the picture of me pulling 585 in a slump position here. http://deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/misc/hobman.htm Slumping the shoulders is bad. Even worse is tightening them and lifting in a 'finished shrug' position. This is what I find a lot of novice lifters doing. They are lifting a heavy weight and they 'tighten up' as they approach the bar. If you go to Krista's page on my daughter Meghan you can see what I call a tight shoulder position instead of a drop shoulder. Check it out lower down on the page. It is the colour picture. Higher up on the page she is doing a rack pull in a good shoulder position. http://krista.tico.com/meghan.html See what I mean? Dropping her shoulder back would lower the bar at least an 1 1/2". Food for thought. - - Keith Hobman Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:53:55 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: RE: genetic factors Ken wrote, > >Granted, I don't have nearly as much experience as you Keith, but I would >think >keeping one's shoulders tensed during the deadlift would be a *good* >thing. I >would think you wouldn't want to relax your shoulders while you're hanging on >to weights that heavy, because the only things holding your shoulder >socket in >place are muscles. > >Also, if you let your shoulders drop, wouldn't that cause your back to round >(which is definitely a bad thing)? > >Maybe I just don't understand what you mean by the "drop shoulder" position; >could you please explain this in more detail? > I think its a semantics thing here. What I call a 'drop shoulder' means the chest is out, the shoulders are back and the scapulae (I hope this is the right muscle!) is contracted. In this position the back should be arched. I did another post which made reference to three positions. Once again, these are only my names for them, but you have: 1. A shrug position - where the traps are contracted like the end of a shrug. This is what I meant by a shoulders tensed position in this post. 2. A slump position - like bad posture where the shoulders are forward and the back is rounded. This is what you are referring to and, I agree with you, is not a good position for most lifters. 3. A shoulder drop position - chest out, shoulders back, back arched. This is the position I advocate for all three lifts. Hope this clears up the confusion. This is where experts like Mel or Jason have such an advantage or us laymen - they can clearly identify what is doing what without the poor terminology which I employ. Anyhow, I think we are in agreement, just using different terms. I picked up the drop position idea from rugby. In a scrum I'd try and keep my head up, my shoulder blades together and get as low into the other person as possible for leverage. I called it the shoulder drop position. When I drove into the person I'd try and pop them hard and then 'drop' into a leverage position when the two players literally bounced off one another. Very effective. I just took the terminoloy with me to PL. - - Keith Hobman Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:35:45 -0500 From: tbender@dspt.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: RDL / Good mornings Tim Bender@DSPT 03/03/99 11:35 AM Romanian Dead Lift (RDL) Purpose: To strengthen and develop the hamstrings and lower back. Start position: Feet hip width apart. hands shoulder width apart. Stand upright holding a weighted bar with an overhand grip. Let the bar rest on the upper thighs. Fill the chest with air and hold high. Bend the knees slightly. Procedure: 1. In a slow controlled motion , lower the bar to a point just below the knees by bending at the hips. Do not touch the ground. 2. Reverse direction and pull bar back to the starting position. Key point: Keep your shoulder blades pulled together and lower back slightly arched as the bar is slowly and smoothly lowered. Good morning Purpose: To develop the upper hamstrings, gluteus maximus, and erector stabilizers. Start position: Feet hip width apart and toes pointed straight, or slightly angled out. Place the bar behind the neck on your shoulders. Grip the bar a little wider than shoulder width apart. Procedure: 1. Fill your chest with air and hold high. 2. Unlock the knees and bend forward, lowering the bar. 3. The hips move backward as the bar is lowered. Lower the bar until the hips cannot go back any farther. 4. Raise the bar by extending the hips forward to start position. Key point: Keep your back flat and your lower back slightly arched at all times. - -TLB Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:50:50 -0400 From: Wade Hanna Subject: Strength_List: sumo vs. conventional dl -Reply I'll chime in a point about the two as well. Being tall(er) 6'-3" with long legs and short torso, most of the recommendations say I should pull conventional. I pull sumo and feel much more comfortable and stronger. Try each method and do the one that suits you better. Sumo takes longer to get the feel for and as I have seen mentioned before (I think it is Tom's article on Griffen's Weighty Matters) it is a good idea to have someone help you if you choose that method. Point of the whole ramble there...body type isn't 100% indicative of what style is better suited for you. ;-) --wade Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:05:42 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: Has this happened to you? Chris wrote, >Ok, I was at the gym last night, doing my last heavy lifts before my >meet on Saturday. Last week, I had nailed a 380x3 in the deadlift, with >just a belt, and was set to try 390x2 last night. After I finished my >warmups (135x5, 225x3, 315x1), I loaded the bar to 390 and gave it a >rip. Nothing. I didn't even get the bar to rattle. So, I pulled ten >pounds off and tried 380. Nothing. My hands wouldn't even stay on the >bar. I think the opener is determined more by what you think you can do with your 3rd lift. If you nailed 395 in your last meet and did 380x3 what is a reasonable 3rd attempt? I would be thinking in the 405 to 425 range. (Okay, I'll be honest. I'd be thinking 425!) If 425 is it it would make sense to me to go 380-405-425. If 415 were it I would go 370-395-415, etc. So don't try and impress people with your opener, make sure you can do it. But don't worry about a little flux - when the andrenaline is pumping on the platform the deadlift is the one lift that really benefits. 380 will pose no problem. Failing at 395 is essentially meaningless. If you are lifting Saturday I'm not sure it was a good idea going that heavy on Monday anyhow. I've given this advice to others on this list before because I've seen it in every sport I've competed in the last 30+ years. The most imprtant training you can do now is in your head. Get positive, eliminate all mental thoughts. Don't talk yourself out of them - ELIMINATE them right now. 425 will be blown out of the water on Saturday. It will fly up after that initial press. You are unstoppable - unstoppable. Here we go Chris. Repeat after me. "I am unstoppable." No, not "unstoppable." "UNSTOPPABLE. UNSTOPPABLE. UNSTOPPABLE." Roll those words around a little bit. Isn't it great. Are you going to let 425 lbs hold you down? Huh?? Get on the program. If you got some tapes of great lifters put 'em in and start preparing your visualization sequence. How the weight is gonna feel. How you are going to set and begin the drive. Your form. And the thrill of lifting 425. How you are gonna feel after you have completed that weight. Forget about Monday - Saturday is what counts. - - Keith Hobman Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:32:15 -0700 From: Deepsquatter Subject: Re: Strength_List: Has this happened to you? Chris, this happens to everyone at one time or another. What I'd recommend is reviewing your training/rest/recovery and nutrition to figure out what is going on. Typically if I miss a weight in traiing and I can trace it back to missed meals, sleep, etc then I'm ok the following week AS LONG AS I correct what was wrong. On the other hand, if your training log leads you to belive that you have over done it etc then you might be wise to lower your opener and go with the flow on meet day. I'd guage your day on how you feel in the warmup room and with your opener. In any event, I'd make sure and get plenty of sleep and food in the interim. One last thing, Most people don't take their last heavy pulls so close to meet day. I like to go 8-10 days off and I know others that go 14 or more days after their last heavy pull....among them Coan and the Peoples Champion Tim Bruner. Hey ,Phil Andrews and Steve St Laurent and Dave Tate and Dan Wagman and Wade and all the other 700+ pullers, how many days out is your last pull? This could be interesting? Jason W. Burnell STRENGTH ONLINE: http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/ Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:14:23 -0400 From: Wade Hanna Subject: Strength_List: some questions on lifting -Reply >3rd question....sumo style deadlifting, I've read certain parts of the lists >in the past and thought I read somewhere that someone said sumo style >deadlifting will help you lift more due to hip and leg muscles doing >majority of the work but it would put more stress on the lower >back...compared to conventional... I thought this was the reverse Pulling sumo will not suddenly increase your pull just because the hips are more predominant (unless you are naturally strong in the hips...then you should be pulling this way anyway). You are still going to have a lot of stress on your lumbar however, the range of motion that is needed to complete the lift is far less than in the conventional. The biggest advantage the sumo allows is that the wider stance effectively shortens the length of your femur (relatively). This allows a more upright torso and reduces the range of motion that the torso must move in order to complete the lift (downside is that it limits hamstring utilization because of the shorter range of motion). It also means that you must be very explosive in order to break the bar off the floor. When I say that, I am meaning that you must fire everything, most importantly, the critical stabilizers in your midsection. They are not aided by sitting on your legs like they will be in the start of the conventional. Conventional DL's require a much greater range of motion imposed on the torso to overcome the full length of the femur. I have seen people say that conventional is slow on the floor and fast at the top, I strongly disagree with that. The previous is a more apt description of a sumo pull since the body takes longer to stabilixe everything at the bottom (floor) and is not required to move the torso over such a distance to complete the lockout, thus fast at the top. My approach to sumo pulls is similar to Power cleaning. I start slow and load up the bar, then ease it off the floor until it get to roughly knee range, then it feels explosive as I drive the hips forward (bring yourself to the bar and not the bar to you). >I learned to pull conventional and the reason why I just decided to switch >is because I've pulled a muscle in my lower back that just seems to flair up >every once in awhile and I thought I might be that I've overtaxing my lower >back... so I thought switching to sumo style would take some of that stress >away....? Maybe, maybe not. As I mentioned earlier, you still place the same load on the spine it just isn't required to move through as great a range of motion. The shear forces are going to be lessened since your lean is minimized. However, you are still going to recruit the lumbar muscles to stabilize the spine as you would in a conventional. In actuality, you are better off utilizing the hamstrings/glutes to maneuver your torso as a lever than you are utilizing the lumbar (which will injure due to overuse...mine did). Optimally you shouldn't flex your spine at all during the DL or the SQ, and any manipulation of your torso is achieved through the firing of the hips/glutes/hams (flexion at the BOTTOM side of your pelvis vs. at the top-pelvis/spine tie in). They are much stronger and enduring (as a group than the lumbar) and more able to manipulate any lean of your torso. This requires very strong abs and lumbar though as they need to make the torso rigid enough to accept the aforementioned groups manipulations. >Can I get some opinions and facts please Opinions? Yes! The fact of the matter is that this is based off my experience and I can't cite any studies to prove it. I am re-discovering the importance of maintaining the natural curvature and the strength of doing so. As I recover from lumbar region injuries I would suggest you really analyze your form. That is how mine started because I got lax and things started regressing from there. Make every rep perfect and insure that everything is operating equally. When one thing gives out, then you start compensating and the regression continues. *Very Important* Only work the big compound motions to the level of your weakest link...then address the weak link specifically. The weight will come, but your form must be practiced and perfected...it is a never ending study to make, then maintain optimum form. Good luck and hope this helped! - -wade Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:39:08 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Strength_List: Sumo Foot Position The IPF site recently promoted a book on Powerlifting and has jpeg's of several pages from the book. While I'm a little hesitant to order any book that promotes itself as 'the only book you'll ever need' I naturally downloaded the sample jpeg pages to take a look. One of the pages included advice on sumo deadlifting and suggested that the feet should be as wide as possible with the toes pointed out. In the past I tried sumoing that way with little success. I felt more like I was doing a wide-stance stiff-legged deadlift. When I had a chance to watch Jason's sumo style one of the things I noticed was that in training anyhow his toes were pointed much straighter than I was doing. I tried it and while I'm still not a natural sumo lifter I'm much stronger off the bottom if I keep my toes pointed ahead. Naturally I assumed it was because my hips were more involved and I was using muscles developed by my box squats. What is the take on this? I realize that there are two schools of sumo - sumo and modified sumo. In the modified sumo the lift is almost crossed back into a conventional deadlift. I'd still be curious on whether anybody has their toes turned out almost 45 degrees of if most people are like Jason and stick to maybe 15 degrees or less of centre. Jason also commented that he had more problems locking out than getting it off the ground. The book suggests sumo lifters need more patience because the bar doesn't move off the ground as quickly. Is this possibly a function of foot placement and hip involvement? The greater hip involvement helps off the bottom with the straight feet, but the hips don't come into play as much in lockout? - - Keith Hobman Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:48:28 -0400 From: "Michael W. Brookman, Jr" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Sumo Foot Position I am very similar to this. I go as wide as my feet can go without them actually touching the plates. I am short, so this is an added benefit. I have toruble pointing my toes straight forward, for genetic reasons I guess, so my toes are pointed at an angle outwards toward the plates. I feel that I am very strong off the floor, where I was once very weak, and now my sticking point is about halfway to lockout or almost near lockout. I guess I will have to figure out how to work on that? > What is the take on this? I realize that there are two schools of sumo - > sumo and modified sumo. In the modified sumo the lift is almost crossed > back into a conventional deadlift. I noticed at the Ed Coan seminar that he uses a stance similar to this modified one you describe. > I'd still be curious on whether anybody > has their toes turned out almost 45 degrees of if most people are like > Jason and stick to maybe 15 degrees or less of centre. 45 degrees for me. It feel more natural. > Jason also commented that he had more problems locking out than getting it > off the ground. The book suggests sumo lifters need more patience because > the bar doesn't move off the ground as quickly. I have the same problem but my movement from the ground is really fast now and then I hit a wall about near lockout. > Is this possibly a function > of foot placement and hip involvement? The greater hip involvement helps > off the bottom with the straight feet, but the hips don't come into play as > much in lockout? I think this is possible but I feel more hip involvement is used when using a more wider and toes out more stance. At least it feels this way to me. I do a conventional stance box deadlift and feel very little hip involvement, and more glute, leg, and low back. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Brookman THE POWER PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/9757/power.html Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 15:41:33 -0700 From: "Samuel E. Glover" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Sumo Foot Position I like the wide angle. While not a great deadlifter (yet) it seems a lot more comfortable. It also is similar to my squat stance w/ toes pointed out 45 degr or so. I only put my feet out to the rings (outside of ankle lined up with ring) so I am also interested on how wide the typical stance is? Sam Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 23:03:44 -0500 From: Bob Mann Subject: Re: Strength_List: Sumo Foot Position I've seen some guys with longer legs with their toes about an inch from the plates. - -- Bob Mann http://members.home.net/bobmann Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 09:24:14 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: Deadlift muscle groups??? Jim wrote, >In the deadlift (both sumo and conventional), what are the muscle groups >involved at each stage? Example, what is required for a strong start, what >takes over once you get to your knees, and then what is required for >lockout? > In a conventional deadlift the initial mover is the legs - quads, hams, hips and glutes. At a position just below the knees the lower back takes over and completes the lift. The very powerful leg muscles initiate the drive off the floor, then the back takes over. Failing to get the bar off the floor generally means the weight is just too heavy, as most people in a conventional deadlift fail with the bar off the floor. Technique plays a major role. If the the bar gets too far out in front leverage is very poor. If the initial drive causes the hips to rise and the shoulders don't the lift turns very ugly. Girth can play a role in a failure to get the bar off the floor, as heavier guys initially have to have the bar further in front. Don Reinhoudt used to really work on technique off the floor to get a good drive. Sumo might solve a lot of the problems as it allows the belly to pas between the legs. In a sumo I believe the the inital drive comes through the hips and legs. The lower back has much less involvement, although it is still a very important muscle group for the lift. If you are having trouble getting off the ground I would strengthen the hips, hams, and glutes in that order of importance. If you are having trouble completing than the lift than I suggest shoulder girdle work (shrugs) and possibly good mornings for your lower back. Failure to complete the lift is often related more to technique than relative weakness. If you allow the shoulders to hunch forward or the back to round completion becomes very tough. Try to get the shoulders and hips rising at the same rate. Especially in the sumo I find it very important to drive my hips forward explosively - but then again, I'm still learning the sumo. - - Keith Hobman Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 08:22:39 -0400 From: Wade Hanna Subject: Re: Strength_List: Deadlift form question >1. Just explode the bar up I think this is more applicable if you pull conventional. The tight starting position with your 'mono-ab' resting securely against your upper thigh aids in the necessary tightness to start very quickly. Your back isn't quite so vulnerable at the beginning of the conventional pull. >2. Set up, pull the slack out of the bar, and then drive with the legs in a >controlled (slow) but powerful manner until the plates clear the floor. I've >read this described as similar to firing a gun, that is, you squeeze the >trigger deliberately, but slowly, and as a result, you can't predict exactly >when the gun will fire (hope this makes sense). I like this aproach for sumo. I have seen people use the "divegrabgo" with sumo, but they tended to be newer and I haven't seen any real big pulls executed like that while pulling sumo (not a definitive survey sample by any means, but...). I think you are best served to ease into the start of sumo (1RM attempts anyway). That is where they are nailed and once you break it from the floor it really starts to accelerate. With the conventional you have the added support of your torso on your upper thigh to maintain tightness at the bottom (you lose it about knee height, but makes start "easier"), but the sumo requires you to get it right from the start. In addition, I think it way too easy to shoot your hips prematurely (shoot them out and back that is) in the sumo. Since the start is the harder portion (slower) you tend to try to correct and find a more powerful groove (i.e. try to stiff leg it where you can "feel" the muscles in the lower back and hamstrings, unlike the abstract feeling you get with glute/hip/ham activity). Stick with it and it will break from the floor...1-2 seconds seems like an eternity when you are pulling for all your worth, but in reality it isn't all that long. A little saying that I have found to be helpful in a whole lot of things is..."smooth is fast." The smoother you execute whatever, the quicker it tends to be. When you try to hurry you have too many thought processes to cycle through before your body reacts (under pressure fine motor skills are the first to go). Think of it like accelerating a musclecar....if you jump on it too hard you light up the rear end and just smoke em' off. This requires you to back off and search for the right amount of gas to hook up the tires. If you start off easy, and aggressively apply the gas in a smooth consistant tempo you will waste the 'smoke show holeshot' everytime. Try to accelerate the bar instead of yanking it. Just my .02 - -wade whanna@senate.state.mi.us Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:33:07 -0600 From: Jim Ferry Subject: RE: Strength_List: suit with straps down during box squats I originally was a very wide (toes to the plates) sumo deadlifter, and I had to switch to conventional because sumo deadlifts seem to really aggravate my hip (Box squats also aggravate it but to a much lesser extent). Well after all the talk on this list about wearing a suit bottom for sumo deadlift's, and box squats I finally listened. And tried them wearing a suit bottom for the first time in almost 5 months. Guess what no hip problems. I am still a little skeptical, and want to give it a couple of workouts before I pass judgement, but it is looking like Louie just might have been right all this time (imagine that :-)). Any way I don't think I will switch my competition styles back just yet as I can pull a good 20 - 30 lbs. more using a conventional style right now, but it does give me some room to play around. I also think that pulling sumo really helps enforce proper conventional technique (something that I really need right now). I have noticed that since I have stopped doing sumo's all together my conventional technique has really deteriorated. My lifts keep increasing but my form is down right scary (every one get ready for a flood of technique questions). To make matters worse my wife keeps trying to imitate my deadlift style, and I have to watch her form like a hawk or else she will end up pulling like me. Subject: Re: Deadlift question From: lylemcd@onr.com (Lyle McDonald) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 07:26:09 -0700 >Subject: DEADLIFTS? >From: Dgo720@aol.com >Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 07:12:22 -0700 > >Im fairly new to weight training and would like to know why most lifters >use the overhand/ underhand grip when doing deadlifts. It's a grip issue, you're stronger with an over/under grip than with a double over grip. >Does it affect your training in any way? one consideration, with an over/under grip you're introducing a slight assymetry into the movement, which will cause some minor torques through the back. A possible solution (the one I use) is to switch grips either workout to workout or set to set (this is what I do, I'll use a right over/left under grip for one work set, then switch to a left over/right under grip for the next set). >I would also like to know if its proper form to raise >up on my toes before each squat Not sure what you're asking here. >and if the bar should rub against your >shins when raising the bar up. I have been tucking my knees in before >raising the bar past my knees. Any advice would be very helpful. To minimize low-back stress, the bar should be kept as close to the legs as possible. With lots of practice, you may be able to get to the point where the bar is just the slightest amount off your legs (brushing against your leg hairs). One of my friends can do this. I just pull the bar up against my legs and don't worry about it (get nice deadlift racing tracks on my shins and tear a little leg hair out). If it's a real problem, get some baby powder to minimize friction. Also, if you're really having to swing the bar around your knees, you may have them too far forward. Ideally, you shins should start out pretty much vertical to the floor, so that the bar doesn't have to swing around (or your knees don't get cracked) to do the movement. Lyle Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:46:23 -0400 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: deadlifts >>> 08/24/99 09:41PM >>> MY deadlift sucks I pulled 495 in may conv. in a meet I have tried 500 about 6 times and just can't get it I was pulling sumo tried and missed 500 I switched to conv. pulled 495 missed 500 I just switched back to sumo have really widened my stance I pulled 450 off the floor fri. like it was 250 but 500 stalled right below the knees my 2 questions are 50lbs in the deadlift should not be that hard should it also I do a wsb routine my squat is moving up I did 435 in a meet in may I did 440 six weeks later at nationals I destroyed 435 on fri. could have done 445 to 450 louie says the squat and deadlift you use the same muscles so if my squat is moving how come my deadlift is not I can't figure it out any advice? thankyou MMB Welcome to the world of "Mental Blocks", I had this same phenom with 400 on the bench for years. My advice is to avoid DL's for a bit, don't even think about them for 2-4 weeks then when you start again work up (progresssively over a few weeks) and then try again. A few things to keep in mind.... 1) In the weeks you are building up again do not try 500 until you are ready too...no spur of the moment attempts! 2) When you do get to the point that you are going to try it, load the bar to 525. Do n't use 500. 3) Make sure you leave your workouts with just a little left over. When you pull leave with the confidence that you could pull a little more every time. Wade Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:24:39 -0400 From: Rick Matthews Subject: Strength_List: Deadlifts O.K., in my best Stone Cold Austin Voice.. "The Bottom line is, if Roger's opinion on Deadlifting is derived from SUPERTRAINING, Ya better listen up!" :) I think I fired the first round in this "debate," but I wasn't trying to start anything. Look, I respect those who don't DL, but I just can't bring myself to NOT DL. Here's why: The top 7 reasons to DL: 7. Dls Remove dead (and living) skin from the shins, giving them that healthy "sheen." 6. Dling is the perfect excuse for taking your shoes off, and therefore, you are able to spend more time by yourself. 5. Dling allows you to make more of a mess with the chalk than benching or squatting. 4. Dls are to Bbers what garlic is to Vampires, and they will NEVER come over to give you helpful "tips." 3. Dls are a great way to relieve gastrointestinal discomfort (see also the 2nd parts of #6, and #4). 2. You never have to wait for someone to finish their reverse wrist curls before beginning your workout. 1. They are FUN! (or, in Linda's case, PHUN!) Rick Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 22:58:45 -0500 From: Bob Mann Subject: Re: Strength_List: (Stupid?) Deadlift Question At 10:36 PM 9/12/99 -0500, Derek Minor wrote: >Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 11:43:01 -0400 >I have a question for all of you. When i deadlift both of my shins start >bleeding(a small inch cut about half way up on both shins) due to the fact >of the bar coming up. I dont even realize that I have an abrasion until my >set is done and I look down. I use baby powder to help make the bar slide >better but it doesn't really help that much. Anyone else have this problem, >or know a secret on how to alleviate it. I have pretty good form in deadlift >so I dont think that is the problem. Maybe too much bar speed? hehehe j/k > >Thanks >Derek Long socks or shin guards. Bob Mann http://members.home.net/bobmann Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 21:57:07 -0800 (AKDT) From: GingerPaws@webtv.net (Emily Craver) Subject: Re: Strength_List: (Stupid?) Deadlift Question Derek- Abrasions & cuts on the shins are pretty common with the lifters on my team (20 of us, give or take). We use baby powder, but it only helps to a point. Are your toes turned out much? That helped me some. Mosly, we just suck it up....lol Emily Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 09:54:23 -0400 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: (Stupid?) Deadlift Question Solution:....Tall socks, yank em' up to your knees in true nerd fashion. Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 08:28:14 -0600 From: Jim Ferry Subject: RE: Strength_List: (Stupid?) Deadlift Question Sounds like you need to wear some knee length socks. If you are bigger than average you might have some trouble getting them over your calves, but I recently picked up a pair of soccer socks that work great, they are still a little tight going over my calves but with a little stretching they make it all the way up to my knees. Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 10:23:06 -0600 From: "Linda Schaefer" Subject: Strength_List: (Stupid?) Deadlift question.... Hi Derek - first of all, NO stupid questions here!! With regard to your trick of donating blood from shin contact, here's a couple of things to try. Soccer socks. OR soccer socks with a "shinguard" - homemade, likely to be legal in the feds on the platform - take a 2 liter pop bottle, cut the curve out, probably at least 6" - to match the curve in your shin. Put this "shinguard" in the sock, use the sock to keep it in place - and put baby powder on the outside of the sock to reduce friction! then try to deadlift - you'll probably find you are less anemic by the end..... OR try hiking socks, about 1/4" thick, heavy yarn...and again, add powder. In this case, be careful on the way DOWN, you can bounce it off the top of the sock! Third idea. But least likely - use old knee wrap, wrap from below point of contact, not tight, you don't want support, spiral UPWARD toward knee....should help somewhat dull the impact. but this one isn't as useful on the platform, can't have socks contact "wraps" of any type at least USAPL in deadlift. Fourth: wear two pairs of socks. one padded hiking style, one soccer style - apparently legal. hiking under soccer. Hopefully again, cuts back on donation.... The Phantom Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 19:52:48 -0400 From: "Jeffry Deigan" Subject: Strength_List: (Stupid?) Deadlift Question Derek, IMHO if the bar touches your shins you do NOT have good deadlift form. Try starting with the bar over the "knuckle" joint of your big toe. This will allow the bar to go straight up and just miss banging into the knee. If the bar rides up on your shins you will lose a lot of force due to friction (powder or not) and the fact that the bar will be moving away from you, and then the bar is going to hit the knee, stick a little, and bounce out in front of you probably at the point that you need momentum and leverage the most. I know most people will tell you to ride the shins to keep the bar closer, but I think that they are just plain wrong. Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:48:04 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: RE: Strength_List: Deadlift Dilemma Depending on what other exercises you do I think it is unrealistic to expect to just switch deadlift styles and not prepare your body for the new stress. If a person is a conventional dl'er and a relatively narrow stance squatter the sumo is going to stress muscles you are not used to stressing. If you squat wide stance than you'll make the transition much easier. Similiarly if you squat wide stance and sumo then going conventional is going to stress the lower back much more than you are used to. My advice for people changing styles is to prepare yourself for the stress. The sumo is going to stress the hams and hips much more. Going to a conventional is going to stress the lumbar much more. Don't just transfer workouts, prepare the body by ramping up to the weight over 3 to 6 months. Do assistance to ease the transition... Don't just experiment - plan and give it a real chance. > I warm-up with SUMO at 505 or 515 then switch when above 600lb to >conventional. >> >> >> Be careful...experimenting with sumos is how I injured my hamstring - - Keith Hobman Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:19:55 -0400 From: "Greg Whalin" Subject: Strength_List: Belt problems with deadlift ell, seeing as I have a meet coming up in about a month, I thought I = would try out my belt in deadlifts (have not used it since my last = meet). I was expecting a big boost. What happened was the opposite. = The darned thing screwed up my lift and I struggled to get one rep with = a weight that was 10 pounds lighter than a weight I pulled for a triple = a few weeks ago without a belt. I think the problem was that it somehow = interfered with my form in the pull. Almost like it is too tight for me = to get into my normal pulling position (I pull conventional). I get a = great boost in weight when I use the belt for squats, but with = deadlifts, I seem to do better without anything. =20 Anyone else experience this? Any ideas? On a side note, using the belt = nearly caused me to mess myself! I checked and luckily, no pooplets = (the famous pooplets have returned), but none the less, not a pleasant = feeling. I am thinking of dropping the belt all together for deadlifts = in my upcoming meet. I am a bit hesitant to do this, because in my last = meet, I felt I got about an added 10 pounds do to the belt. This belt I = am using now though, is a new belt from Inzer, so that is the only thing = that has changed. Thoughts anyone? Thanks, Greg Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:21:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Dan Yourg Subject: Strength_List: deadlifts and belts I get assistance from using a belt on my deads, but I wear the belt higher on my waist as opposed to squats where I wear it lower, close to the hips. I also do not wear it as tight deadlifting as compared to squats. Dan Yourg Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 22:06:09 -0700 From: "Mike Trupiano" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Belt problems with deadlift For me, the belt moves around when I lift conventional. This can be a little distracting but once I'm properly positioned everything seems to end up where it's suppose to be. When I lift sumo the belt is no problem at all. I don't think the belt helps me pull more, it gives me the safety needed to give it 100% with less concern over injury. Having old injuries just waiting to grab hold again this is a major concern. Strangely, I deadlifted about 90% max last week and my sore back feels much better now. I have been pulling slowly and very delibrately with the best precision I can muster. The weight seems heavier this way but I sure feel better. A new belt can definitely take some time to adjust to. After a while it conforms to your body and it should be just fine. Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 22:18:41 -0700 From: "Feather Shinpaugh" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Belt problems with deadlift ******I always wear mine loose enough to fit two fingers between the = belt and my back. Roger Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 08:46:14 -0400 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Belt problems with deadlift Greg, I would keep it and just make sure you practice a little with it. Even if it is just setting up with it and not actually pulling...once you get set up then flex your abs into the belt and stand up (you can even do it at home with no weight, just get the feeling solidified). One other thing is to not tighten the belt too much. It should be snug, but don't reaf it down too hard or it will not allow you to flex your abs to their fullest. Wade Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 08:50:28 -0400 From: "Steven Dana" Subject: Strength_List: Belt problems with deadlift -Reply Sounds like your belt is too tight. It has been suggested you should be able to slide two fingers inside the belt when properly adjusted. steve dana Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 09:52:58 -0400 From: "Gregory P Whalin" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Belt problems with deadlift Thanks all. I also suspected it was too tight (although I could definitely still fit two fingers in), so I dropped it a notch below what I usually have it set at for squats. Still felt awkward. I will definitely use it for the next couple of weeks to see if I get used to it and relearn my form with it on. I am not sure that having a belt really helps me add any weight, but it does usually (in the past with other belts) make me feel safer. Could also just be that this is a new belt and is much thicker and sturdier than my previous belts (Inzer 13mm compared to foo foo BB belts in the past). Thanks again, Greg Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 00:57:58 -0500 From: Roger Subject: Re: Strength_List: deadlifts: weak off the floor At 10:54 PM 10/18/99 +0200, you wrote: >What's the best way to get stronger off the floor in the deadlift? (I do >conventional deadlifts). >I've read about doing deadlifts standing on a low platform to work the start >of the lift. Any other special exercises? > >When I did my first competition a week ago the other lifters commented that >I had a very strong lockout, but was weaker off the floor. They said I could >probably get a lot of help from a deadlift suit. Usually if I just can get >the weight moving, I'm able to complete the lift. > >Jan > I am the same way Jan. I have been doing almost all of my deadlift training while standing on a stack of 4 mats. The mats are around 5/8" thick each. I am thinking I will probably do all of my training off these mats right up to my meet. Another thing that has helped me was an old article I read by Louie Simmons. He said when doing a series of reps, only the first rep is done the way you will pull in your meet. So he suggested doing singles with less than a minute rest between pulls. Since I have taken this up I have been having less and less trouble coming off the floor. Roger http://www.willinet.net/~broeg/index.html Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 23:27:07 -0700 From: Deepsquatter Subject: Re: Strength_List: Sumo Technique Keith Hobman wrote: > When I miss a sumo the bar comes off about 6" and them dies out in front. > My brother does the same, but Meghan never leaves it. If she breaks it she > lifts it. I noticed that she does a 'pelvis tilt' prior to her pull in > ernest that Darren and I don't do. It caught my attention because Jason > does the same thing. Here's a tip from the "Crain train" when you descend to the bar, keep your hips as close to the bar as possible. As in squat down to the bar but not necessarily back so much. You must keep your knees out and inline with the feet and don't let them come in. Also, you want to start the lift with the hips high. If you watch some of the better DLers they almost all start with the hips high....even those that do a hip thrust/dip just before the pull will start at the point when the hips are high. Another Crain tip...take the 'slack' out of the bar just before you pull. This makes a difference. Coan calls this squeezing in. They get in position and just prior to the pull, they apply tension to the bar, jeut enough to tighten up. If your hips are high, this will help you get tight and puts you in position to drive with the legs. Remember, with sumo it's Out and down..not just down. Wish I was there to show you. Crain described it and showed us. When I got home I watched Eddys dl tape and it's almost what he does to a tee. Slight style differences but very close. So then I went back and watched Nationals on tape and checked the pullers. You will find that most of the really good pullers pull alike. There are differences , of course, and some guys that pull a ton with what seems like horrible form but watch the guys with style and you will find a lot of similarities. > Jason W. Burnell STRENGTH ONLINE: http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 16:05:43 -0700 From: Watson Davis Subject: Re: Strength_List: deadlifts: weak off the floor Thomas Incledon wrote: > > > > > "Jan Baggerud Larsen, Systemutvikler 8366" wrote: > > > > > > What's the best way to get stronger off the floor in the deadlift? (I do > > > conventional deadlifts). > > > I've read about doing deadlifts standing on a low platform to work the > start > > > of the lift. Any other special exercises? > > Most of the problems I have seen with guys having trouble coming off the > floor revolved around the fact that they sacrificed mechanical position to > move the bar faster. Once you are in position and start the lift, don't > allow the hips to kick up. Rather try to have the hips and shoulder come up > as one unit. This is easier said then done of course with a max weight, but > if you carefully do this in your training it will carry over to the meet > lift so the discrepancy will not be as severe. As far as doing deadlifts > off plates, boxes, etc to increase the range of motion, every time I see > guys doing this they use a mechanical position that will not transfer over > to the competition lift. have someone look at your mechanics and determine > where you are weak, ie leg drive, and that is what you should work on to > improve the start of your deadlift. Interesting. You are correct, sir. My form problem is that my butt comes up first. I've been trying to fix that. I think part of the problem was my starting position. Neither my arms or my shins were perpendicular to the floor. My shins were out over my toes, the bar was against my shins and I was sitting back so that my arms were at an angle as well. When I would start to lift, my butt would come up at the start and I'd end up doing a very heavy SLDL. Luckily, I can DO SLDLs pretty heavy. I've been working on that (along with using the 35's). I'm trying to make my pull one smooth motion with shoulders coming up as my hips come forward. Yesterday, I almost pulled better with the 35's than I have with regular plates. I hope it translates to a better dead. Watson (the pencil neck) Davis Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 09:35:59 -0500 From: "John Koch" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Dead Lift Problem Are you using chalk? It will make a big difference if you're not already using it. If that doesn't help, try some static holds with 110% of your deadlift after your workout. Set it up in the rack so you only have to lift the bar a couple of inches. BTW, you can't use straps in any division, raw or equipped.... John >>> "Walsh, John" 11/15/99 9:25:32 AM >>> I am new to powerlifting and haven't had much experience with deadlifting. The other day I was deadlifting with 315 attempting 4 reps. It seemed light but my grip gave out by the 3rd rep. Any suggestions on how to increase my grip strength? Will this develop as a result of continued deadlifting? I would rather not use wrist straps because my focus is on competing in raw meets. John Walsh Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 20:54:38 -0500 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Sumo deadlift problem > Hello to the list! This is my first posting and I > have a strength related question if it is not too much > trouble. > > My max sumo deadlift is about 20% less than my max > conventional deadlift. I have more of a > benchers/squatters build (short arms & legs), but I > didn't think it made THAT much of a difference. In a > conventional deadlift, I have trouble with the > lockout, but in the sumo I can't seem to get the > weight off the floor. Does this mean I have weak > hips? > > What kind of assistance work can I be doing to correct > this problem? > > Thanks to you all, > > Tony Milton Welcome to the world of Deadlifts! The failing points you describe for each are exactly where the majority of people fail on each. If you want to pull conventional then work the lockout, if you want to pull sumo then you need to work the start. To kick start your start try really wide stance sumos (keeping your torso very vertical) off a 1-2" platform. Make sure you push your feet down and out, very important for sumos. Also, keep your grip relatively narrow....if you grab too wide it tends to pull your shoulders forward and make you hunch (I know that one from personal experience), maybe try first finger just outside the smooth. Last and certainly most importantly...be patient on the start of a sumo. It feels like it takes forever to break it but, keep applying pressure and stick with it! Once she goes and you break the knee level it is acceleration time. If all the upper parts are in place you will lock out very convincingly even though you grunted to start. Best of luck and hope this helps. ___ - -wade Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 07:03:56 EST From: "Jim Hinze" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Sumo deadlift problem Tony, Its your hips that keep it from comming off the floor when pulling sumo. If you want to pull sumo then use the following to strengthen your hips: ultra wide sumo DL's, kneeling squats, spread eagle situps, and I seem to get a lot of hip work out of lunges (for whatever reason). Jim Hinze http://jhinze.dyndns.com http://www.ffa-mfw.com