From Jcue10@webtv.net Fri Jan 9 22:02:19 PST 1998 George, If deads kill your lowerback then I bet that your form is way off. You should get sore, but not to the point where you can't walk. If you do them right there is no way in hell that they would kill your back, unless you try to use too much weight. Here is a basic tip keep your back flat and on the way up pretend like you are trying to push the floor down with your feet. Jorge Pavon, A proud member of the Misc.Fitness. Weights!!! From jcilione*@gis.net Fri Jan 9 22:03:03 PST 1998 do dl's sumo style, and try keeping your back as straight as possible--an inward(?) curve (can't think of how else to describe it). it takes a lot of the pressure of the lower back and puts it in the glutes and hams while pulling from the floor. and yes, you still get a great lower back workout. In article <68otpq$fba@news.inforamp.net>, capgroup@istar.ca wrote: > HELP!! > > Everytime I do deadlifts, my lower back is > so sore the next day that I can hardly move. > 2-3 days later it is still smarting. > > But to bring out the total-body development > in lacking areas, I NEED the deadlift to become > a huge component of my training. > > Please - are there any resources on the net > that discuss the details of proper deadlifting > form? I have searched, but I have found little. > > - George Sartori -- From fadden@netcom.com Fri Jan 9 22:26:58 PST 1998 In article <01bd198c$efb9f7e0$e2e190d1@oemcomputer>, leigh smith wrote: >Find yourself a platform and pull the weight off the floor. If you don't >know the correct form, find somebody to show you. Well, since you offered... :-) I tried squats and deadlifts for the first time last night. I've been doing leg extension/press/curl, back extensions, and all the assorted upper-body pressing stuff for about 8 months now. After reading the mfw FAQ and all the good stuff on Griffin's page, I decided to try squats and deadlifts. Squats felt good. I had a friend watch me squat the bar in a power cage, and I'm pretty confident that I'm doing those with good form. Deadlifts felt okay, but in trying to keep my back straight I ended up >clanging< the bar against my knees. There are two says to fix that: (1) Move the knees out of phase with the back, kinda like you do when rowing (that would be *lightweight* crew, mind you). This didn't feel good. (2) Bend more at the hips, so that the shoulders are farther forward, and the bar just barely clears the knees. This felt fine, but I'm just doing the bar plus 10 pounds on each side, so it could be using more lower back than is healthy and I wouldn't necessarily know it. I've read the FAQs and a couple of web pages, and they all emphasize the importance of keeping your back straight and head up, but none of them describe the angle of bend at the hips. I'm 6'2" with long legs, so it's possible I'm in worse shape for this than some. Any suggestions would be appreciated. -- Send mail to fadden@netcom.com (Andy McFadden) Fight Internet Spam - http://spam.abuse.net/spam/ & news.admin.net-abuse.email Try some spammed toll-free numbers from http://www.clark.net/pub/kfl/toll.html From jharris@NOSPAMspectralinc.com Fri Jan 9 22:27:48 PST 1998 Martin B. Pomije wrote in message <34B5B3B2.DF87716@inav.net>... >Ed Nichols wrote: >> Andy, go here http://www.drsquat.com/articles/sq.htm and see what Dr. >> Squat says about Keystone deadlifts. I think this may help. When you >> get there, there is a long dialog about squats and toward the end of >> this he gets into deadlifts and then Keystone deadlifts. >> >> Ed Nichols starbase45@earthlink.net - ICQ 1624833 >> All I ask is to prove that money can't make me happy. >I read the article, but I'm having difficulty visualizing the movement. >(Maybe because I've never seen a "Keystone Cops" movie :-) ). Does >anybody know where I can find a picture of this movement? Keystone deadlifts are a variation of the stiff-legged deadlift, not the "regular" or powerlifting deadlift that the poster was asking about. Stiff-legged DLs tend to emphasize the hams much more and the quads much less than regular deadlifts. That said, I also found the explanation at Dr. Squats web page lacking. Fortunately, a trainer at my gym showed me the form which I have been using and enjoying it quite a bit. The basic idea is to keep your back arched and your butt sticking out rather than rounding your back as you descend. It helps to turn sideways and watch yourself in the mirror and use light weight (or even no weight) as you do them for the first few times to get the form down. Start by standing straight up and stick out your chest and butt as you arch your back. Bend forward at the waist but maintain this back arch and descend until you feel a stretch in the back of your legs (for me I feel it in both hams and calves). Keep the bar close (a few inches) to your shins as you descend. At the point where you feel the stretch, you could reach lower if you wanted, but it would require you to un-arch your back and slump your shoulders to do so. As Dr. Squat says, "any further lowering of the bar is accomplished ONLY through eccentric hyperflexion of your spine -- a NO-NO!" The point is, reaching any lower isn't working your legs any more, so don't do it! Then straighten up still keeping your back arched until you are standing straight up and down with your chest forward and shoulders back. Repeat to taste! ----------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:08:00 -0800 From: Deepsquatter Subject: GRIP PROBLEM??? I got this from Rich Peters, As usual, he's on the road. He reads the list but often hasn't the time to post. He was interested in the grip discussion and sent me this to pass on: Oh by the way, tell those guys that are trying to figure out why their grip won't hold up on the DL, that it's not their grip that's the problem. It's the positioning of their feet. If the feet aren't pointed out at 45 degree angles, the hips can't lock, if the hips can't lock the bar slows down or stalls, thats when hitching, loss of grip, rounded back, non lockout occurs, along with bicep tears. Look at any photo of any lifter who has torn a bicep, and look at where his feet are pointed, straight ahead. The Ankle ligaments are at 45 degrees, Knee Ligaments, 45, Glute Muscle group at 45 degrees, why in the world would you point your feet straight ahead??? I'll tell you why!!! Powerlifting is an Off Shoot of Body Building, Body Builders learned that if the pointed their feet straight ahead, their Glutes would not over develop, thus building the back, lats, lower back, but not the Glute. Show me a DL with no Butt and I'll show you a lifter that probably can't deadlift very well. One other point, look at the foot placement of the Weightlifters! Now ever heard of an Olympic Lifter with a grip proble??? I teach this in my seminars. Thats why I was able to pull 1000 lbs in the Partial Deadlift (1" below knee cap, starting point, no straps allowed) in the Oklahoma Strongest Man Contest 3 years in a row. I've learned alot after watching 700,000 attempts. People always look for a solution to a problem, but usually start at the wrong end looking for solutions. Tell them all to just try it, it's worked for everyone I have ever coached or had buy my Training Video's and I prove it at least 100 times a year at my meets to the lifters during the meet. I usually let them go to the 3rd attempt, just before they bomb out, that's when a Powerlifter will really listen to reason! HaHA. Rich Peters -- From fadden@netcom.com Sat Jan 17 21:46:40 PST 1998 I've seen a lot of advise on correct form for the deadlift, but it all seems to assume that once you're standing upright you're done. I went through the archives on Griffin's page just now, as well as some other sites, and you can find exacting step-by-step procedures for getting the weight to the top, and not one word about putting it back down. I went to the gym last night, for my 3rd attempt at figuring this exercise out, and put a 35lb weight on each side of the bar. It's close enough in size to a 45lb to keep the form right, and my legs and back can handle it. (My traps and grip can't, so I'll be there for a little while.) I think I'm getting the hang of the "lift" part. My shins got rubbed slightly pink through my sweatpants, but I didn't lose any skin (unlike last time). My back feels fine. The tops of my knees, however, have a nice bruise on them where the bar caught them on the way down. If you're sitting and looking at your knees, the bruise is dead center between the two "bumps" on the sides of my kness and the kneecap. In "The Insider's Tell-All Guide" (which seems to be the only source that even acknowleges the "what comes up must go down" principle :-) ), McRobert says that the first part of the downward motion is to bend the legs. When the bar gets down around knee level, bend at the hips to get the bar around the knees, then continue lowering using just the legs. (That was from memory, hope I got it right.) That was, I hope, more or less what I was doing. Since my back isn't in traction, I feel pretty good about it, but it may just be that the weight isn't heavy enough yet to cause problems. I used to do crew (lightweight, mind you), so while leg-then-back-then-arm sorts of movements feel natural, the eccentric part is something that I haven't done with weight. So... my questions to the group are: (1) How would you describe lowering the weight, step-by-step? (2) Do you breathe at the top? I exhale on the way up, so inhaling before the trip down seemed natural. (3) How do your knees interact with the bar on the way down? On the way up it just slides smoothly, but on the way down it kinda hangs on the top of my kneecaps. Is this a symptom of wacky knees, insufficient quad work (hey, I'm doing my squats now!), or something that most people have to suffer through? For reference, I'm 6'2", 165lbs, and lean. I'm currently trying to un-learn lots of bad habits, and pick up some new exercises. Thanks in advance for any help... From: daryl@uk.ibm.com Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 05:11:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: Dr Squats description of Keystone Deadlifts > I believe that I've developed a better way. With barbell in hand, >poke both your butt and belly outward. In this position, you look kinda >like one of the "Keystone Cops" you see in the 1920s movies. This >variation of stiff legged deadlifts has thus become known as "Keystone >Deadlifts." > This seemingly strange position will prestretch your hamstrings >because of the forward tilt of your pelvis the position entails. Then, >while maintaining this position, slowly lower the barbell to around your >knees, keeping the bar close to your legs during the descent and ascent. > You must NOT go more than an inch or two below your knees. By the >time you reach your (slightly unlocked) knees, your hip joints have >fully flexed, and further lowering of the bar is accomplished ONLY >through hyperflexion of your spine -- a NO-NO! > You will feel a decided "burn" in your hams and glutes when keystones>are done correctly. You should feel virtually no discomfort or stress in your lower back. If you do, experiment with the movement until you feel no discomfort at all. For the photographic description of performing stiff leg deads in this manner (in addition to a written description of course), refer to Stuart McRobert's book "The Insiders Tell All Handbook on Weight-training Technique". I know the title implies it is another one of those "learn the secrets of the champs" books, but it honestly is not. I am sure you will agree if you have it. BTW, Stuart does not call this method of stiff leg deads "keystone deads" He just explains that these slight alterations in form are safer. Thanks Fred, Daryl. Subject: Reverse Hypers From: Sandeep De Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 23:21:35 -0800 > What's a "reverse hyperextension"? > Feel free to post your reply to the list or by mail. Whatever. Thanks. > Jon Allen Several people asked what a reverse hyperextension is - clipped from my exercise technique article on my web page. Most of you have probably never heard of what a Reverse Hyperextension is. The baby of powerlifting guru Louie Simmons, the reverse hyperextension works the hamstring extension function in the most pure way possible. It is far superior for working this capability of the hamstrings than conventional exercises such as dumbbell stiff legged deadlifts (which are still great) because it allows the posterior chain (i.e. glutes, lower back, hamstrings) to contract in the way and order they are supposed to. Powerlifters around the world are using this exercise as secret weapon to enhance their squat and deadlift poundages. In fact, several Australian powerlifters added 77 lbs. to their squat and 110 lbs. to their deadlift after implementing it into their training. Several of Simmons' lifters use the reverse hyper exclusively during precontest training; without doing deadlifts specifically. However, these people still put up awesome scores in the deadlift. Simmons created the exercise after sustaining several devastating back injuries over his lifting career in the early 1980's. After a steady diet of reverse hypers, he found his back health resurrected and his poundages shooting through the roof. Ra-ra-ra bullshit, I know, but this is truly an incredible exercise that I highly reccomend. I also saw my front squat poundages increase greatly by implementing this in my training. Having blown out the upper part of my left hamstring during the 1997 football season, this exercise is also important to me for restoring the hip extension function that is not only critical to strong squats and deadlifts, but powerful running as well. As you can see, the athletic application of the reverse hyper is great. Martial arts kicks, sprinting, wrestling, basketball, baseball, bobsledding, football...you name it, hip extension matters. A lineman blasts an opponent out of a hole during a run block thanks to strong hip extension. Similarly, all the power you get at the bottom of a squat comes from hip extension. Reverse Hypers, unfortunately, require a special bench that Louie Simmons manufactures and sells. But thankfully, you can perform them without the bench, using common gym equipment. So you can smoke your erector spinae, hamstrings and glutes without killing your pocket book. It would be nice if we could all afford the machine - because it does make life easier - and most gym owners are pretty unreceptive towards new equipment. In 5-10 years, however, you should start seeing this machine popping up all over hardcore gyms in the world. The cutting edge gyms have already clued in on this great exercise. Until that happens, here is how you do it. 1. Find a hyperextension bench, but rather than lying on it normally (i.e. with your upper body hanging over the edge and your feet locked down), lie on it facing backwards, on your stomach, so that your arms are holding onto the leg supports and your legs are hanging down over the edge of the bench. 2. Your waist should be right at the edge of the bench. 3. For most people, you will need to elevate the hyperextension bench so that your legs can hang down fully at the bottom of the movement. Find a wooden crate or a weight plate and stick it under the feet of the hyperextension bench closest to your legs. This should increase the height of the bench more than enough for most people so that their legs can hang freely. You MUST have your legs hanging down so that they are perpindicular to the ground at the start of the exercise. There should optimally be a 90 degree angle at your waist. 4. Get a weight belt and make it small enough so that it fits relatively tightly around your ankles. 5. Place a dumbbell between your ankles. Tip the dumbbell slightly forward so that the top inside plates "hang off" the belt. Now all you have to do is lightly squeeze your legs together to hold the dumbbell in place during the movement. It helps to have a training partner do this for you and also ensure that the dumbbell doesn't fall out during the movement. The tighter the belt is around your ankles, the better. 6. The movement is simple. Just extend your hips so that your legs move from being perpindicular to the ground until they are parallel with the ground. You will feel a great activation in your lower back, glute and hamstrings. Keep your legs straight throughout the movement. 7. Hold your breath during the positive portion of the rep - this increases spinal stability by increasing intrathoracic pressure 8. Use a slow tempo, i.e. 3-1-4-1 positive-pause-negative-pause, as the range of motion is great on this exercise. ---------- Sandeep De The Power Factory: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/4039/ Subject: Scraped shins From: Wedderburn <40959@www1.utech.net> Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 12:22:13 -0800 A hint for Linda Beeman: Read a blurb in PLUSA about some top notch powerlifter who shaved the hair off this shins (very important) and then put duct tape over them to keep the bar from scratching him. Masking tape might work, too, and would certainly come off easier. Of course you could leave the hair on. The duct tape would act the same as wax job. Another hint: When I visited the Westside Barbell Club last year, there was a huge jug of linement (the kind you put on sore muscles) that the lifters smeared on BEFORE they trained. Said it helped to warm up the muscle. Subject: Re: Deadllift hair and what I love From: Greg Agnes Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:14:29 -0800 >A hint for Linda Beeman: Read a blurb in PLUSA about some top notch >powerlifter who shaved the hair off this shins (very important) and then >put duct tape over them to keep the bar from scratching him. Masking >tape might work, too, and would certainly come off easier. Of course >you could leave the hair on. The duct tape would act the same as wax >job. Another hint: When I visited the Westside Barbell Club last year, >there was a huge jug of linement (the kind you put on sore muscles) that >the lifters smeared on BEFORE they trained. Said it helped to warm up >the muscle. Using tape might be ok for training, but not for competting !(at least in USAPL NASA) I always found baby powder worked just fine. Remember not to get ANY on your hands or your grip will be gone. Use the bottom of the bottle to spread it on your legs. As for the hair either shave it or the bar will. Truthfully, although I shave for competition, I don't for training giving me that last edge (at least mentally) on meet day. As for using ointment for warming up my former lifting partner ( an elite powerlifter) also used it. I didn't find it helped, instead using 5-10 minutes of light cardio (the walk from the parking lot to the gym doesn't count :( , stretching well while doing warmup sets on the big lift of the day starting with the bar, and using extra if I felt tight worked just fine. Just my experiences. On the female powerlifters, I used to train with a 129 lb class powerlifter who pulled 418 in a world championship meet. Kind of put a lot of pressure on any macho types around the gym. greg From manu@ikarios.com Sat Feb 21 07:43:20 PST 1998 Marshall Veach writes: > I have had some problems with my lower back in the past year - I strained > the muscles in a minor car accident ... and now they seem to be weak/tight > often ... (for example, if after running I sit indian style on a floor for > a few minutes, I am likely to feel it in the lower back for the next few > days) ... anyway, I am posting to not ask about the back per se ... but to > ask what people with lower back problems use as an alternative to > squats and deadlifts ... > Everything I have read indicates that these two excercises are the most > important full-body excercises one can do ... are there any alternatives > which have their advantages but do not strain the lower back ? I had a similar problem. I think it's best you avoid running (and squats/deadlifts for that matter) until youre back has completely healed. As long as it bothers you, you won't be able to strengthen it and it will remain a weak link. Once you've got rid of the problem, use controlled hyperextensions to strengthen it and be extra careful when you do sqauts or deads: For squats, you can try to do them SuperSlow style. The sticking point makes it very hard but after a while they truly feel as safe as leg presses but more productive. If you love piling plates on the bar, your ego will cartainly suffer, though! As for deadlifts, try using dumbbells. Start the movement with your hands close to your sides, which I find less stressful for the lower back as the standard version. If this doesn't work there are special devices like Zane's Leg Blaster or the Hip Belt (sold by Ironmind) which may help. I haven't tried them but if you're interested you'll find ads for them in Ironman magazine. Good luck! -- Manuel http://www.ikarios.com (Bodybuilding site in French/en francais) From alimun@ecf.toronto.edu Sat Feb 21 07:52:35 PST 1998 >I was not able to walk after the SLDL but it was because my lower back >was killing me. I must have been doing something wrong? But what? I kept >my back arched. I tried to look ahead while bending. Am I supposed to >keep the weight lower and do more reps? Are you supposed to start I think what I'm going to say has already been said, but what the hell: -When I started Deadlifting again after a long lay off, I couldn't lay down straight for severak days after each deadlifting session. But that pain went away in about 3-4 monthes. *I* believe my back was just weak, and needed some time to get up to par. -As for Back arching, someone gave me a good mental picture what correct posture is. When standing up, you should have your stomuch pushed out forward and your ass sticking out from the back, and you hold that form all the way to parrallel. Works for me. Munawar Ali COMP Eng 9T7 + PEY@UFT E-Mail: alimun@ecf.toronto.edu URL: http://www.ecf.toronto.edu/~alimun/Welcome.html From houst@centuryinter.net Sat Feb 21 07:52:54 PST 1998 Go to Fred "Dr. Squat" Hatfield's website; he's got some great info on how to do what he calls "Keystone" deadlifts. You basically hold the weight at waist level, rotate your hips forward so that you butt sticks out and let you knees stay slightly bent. Lower the weight slowly until just past your knees and then return back up. Keep the weight very close to your legs all the way down, even slightly brushing them. Keep your back locked so that all the pull comes from your hams. Start real light till you get the feel of it; then go for it. They work great. Earrow wrote in article <19980211232401.SAA01427@ladder02.news.aol.com>... > Anybody know the proper form for deadlifting for the hamstrings. It's hard to > get a full contraction with heavy leg curls but I just can't get that pump from > the deadlifts. Thanx in advance. > > Eric > > Quote: "wherever you go........there you are" > From hitman@3lefties.com Sat Feb 21 08:05:08 PST 1998 I switched to sumo dealifts about 2 years ago and I'll never go back! In my experiences, they (sumo) don't work the legs nearly as much but that's also a good thing, for me at least. When I'm doing deadlifts I'm concentrating on working just my back anyway and I'll work my legs another day. Also, the sumo-style deadlift also takes alot of pressure off your lower back so you can lift more weight. If your goal is to build a big back, keep up with the sumo deadlifts! On 19 Feb 1998 18:43:58 GMT, mveach@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Marshall Veach) wrote: >I am just starting to incorporate deadlift into my (beginner) routine - >I have noticed that the sumo stance seems much more natural and balanced - >I prefer it very much - is this typical ? Or perhaps indicitive that my >convential form is poor ? Also, is there any reason for me to favor the >convential over the sumo (in terms of "workout efficacy") ? > >thanks for any insight, >msv >mveach@cs.stanford.edu Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:04:16 -0500 From: "Marc J. Dineno>" <702359@ICAN.NET> Subject: Re: STRENGTH Digest - 22 Feb 1998 to 23 Feb 1998 (#1998-55) ------------------------------------------- About deadlifting: One day I did a deadlift workout with running shoes, I did about 6 reps I believe. The next workout, with the same weight, my reps jumped to 8 I believe(this was a long time ago-can't remember exactly) I distinctly remember the surprise at being stronger after switching shoes. Perhaps I had gotten stronger from the last workout(and not from the shoes) but for some reason I believe it was the shoes(I was probably at a plateau at the time-therefore, any gain in strength was likely due to the shoes.) As for the huge difference a couple of inches can make: I used to do rack deadlifts. I would do partial, top range deadlift reps of about 550 pounds off the power rack. I remember, there used to be a point where, when I lowered the peg down one notch lower, all of a sudden I had an extremely hard time with the weight. (In fact, I believe I couldn't even budge the same weight that I had done reps with one notch higher.) Marc Dineno Subject: Re: Deadlifts From: "Tom McCullough MEd., MSS" Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 07:37:33 -0800 Wedderburn <40959@www1.utech.net> wrote >If you really want to save your shins when you deadlift, use a trap >bar. That would save the shins alright. But if you prefer to deadlift and you really want to save your shins, learn to use good lifting form. The bar usually scrapes the shins when 1) you have one of your hands out further than the other causing the bar to twist; or 2) start the first pull with the bar away from the shins. When you do this you immediately have to shift your weight to the toes and rock back, thus the bar is pulled into the shins. >I bought one for my home gym after reading their virtues >as extolled by Stuart McRobert. Not only do your shins escape >unscathed, but anatomically the lift is better because your arms are at >your sides in a natural position. The trap bar is pretty good 2nd, as a replacement for the deadlift and works really great for building the traps, but it is not the deadlift. Let me also remind you that the anatomically natural position of the arms is with the palms supinated (up) not the neutral grip (Thompson, 1994). >However for people who must practice for powerlifting contests, duct >tape is the better answer. I pull in the mid 700's and rarely scrape my shins. When, I do it is because I got on my toes and rocked back pulling the bar into the shins. Learning proper form and practicing it is the solution to this problem. Tom Subject: Re: Deadlift Form From: FlexWriter@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:02:15 -0800 Tom McCullough wrote: <> In my case, Tom, I begin the deadlift with the bar touching my shins and keep it against my shins, knees, and thighs all through the ascent and descent. My weight is on my heels at all times, my hips remain lower than my shoulders, and I pull up and back. Having suffered lower back injuries early in my lifting career due to lousy form on squats and bent rows, I'm careful to always keep the bar against my legs at all times during deadlifts, as I don't want to multiply the stress on my lower back. My shins are scraped because the bar drags against them from the very start of the lift, not because I pull the bar into the shins after the lift has begun. I asked a powerlifter friend about my bloodied shins and he pulled up the legs of his sweats to show me his own bruised shins. "Proves you're doing 'em right," he said. So am I doing 'em right or doing 'em wrong? Those scraped up shins sure burn like a bugger during my post workout shower! Flexwriter Subject: Re: Deadlift Form From: "Tom McCullough MEd., MSS" Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:52:29 -0800 FlexWriter@aol.com wrote: > I asked a powerlifter friend about my bloodied shins and he pulled up > the legs of his sweats to show me his own bruised shins. "Proves > you're doing 'em right," he said. You are killing your lift if you are having to drag them up you leg. Let's look at it this way. When the bar touches the leg it causes friction right. Yep, even if you put baby powder on you leg. So ideally you want to get as close to the shin (center line of the body) as possible without actually touching them, to prevent any unnecessary and unwanted friction. The powder helps in case you do happen to touch the leg. The last thing you need when deadlifting is friction dragging you down even more. So having you legs all cut up and bruised certainly doesn't mean you are doing them right. But accidents do happen once and a while. Everyonce and a while I get a big scrape on my shins. Tom From kgrovesNOSPAM@gte.net Mon Mar 16 22:03:03 PST 1998 krd wrote in article <35088E5F.C85D369A@vt.edu>... > I did deadlifts today for the first time. . . > > Someone else posted a similar post a day or so ago about his first > deadlift working his back, so maybe my question will help him, too. > > It seems like I'm really only getting my legs involved on the first rep > (getting the bar off the ground). On subsequent reps, I seem to be > working mainly my back. On this first rep, my butt is a lot closer to > the ground than it gets on following reps. Should I be lowering my butt > on every rep or what? (Or my butt could have been too low on the first > rep.) I've tried to read up on proper form, but that usually focuses on > on grip and feet position, etc. Very little about whether or not you > should be moving your butt around. . . > > I hope I've explained it well enough to visualize what I'm doing. > > Kent > krd@vt.edu > What it seems that you are doing is using proper form on the first rep and improper form on the subsequent reps. Deadlifts do not have to be an up-down thing. By this, I mean that you should make sure, above all, that your form is good on each rep, even if that involves slowing down between reps to make sure that your butt is down far enough. -- Karl Core "It ain't rocket science, son. Just keep piling it on till you can't lift any more." Krista Scott wanna know why nobody on MFW likes Bill Phillips? Go here: < http://mfw.tico.com/buttplug.cfm > Contact me on the ICQ network: 9096282 AOL Instant Messenger Users, my SN is "RecoilRecs" From kalalau@NOTgte.net Mon Mar 16 22:03:57 PST 1998 On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:15:55 -0500, krd wrote: >gkogut@ucsd.edu wrote: >> >> > It seems like I'm really only getting my legs involved on the first rep >> > (getting the bar off the ground). On subsequent reps, I seem to be >> > working mainly my back. >> >> That's pretty typical. Ideally, the back and legs should work simultaneously >> to avoid "butt launching" where you raise the butt in order get the legs in a >> more powerful, straightened position for the lift-off. But then once you've >> got the bar up, you've got to do a nearly-straight-legged deadlift to finish >> it off. > >This is going to sound a little weird, but what's the proper butt range >of motion then? Should it stay in one place as my back moves up and >down, or should it be going up and down as well? If I move it too much, >it seems like I'm just doing some weird kind of squat or something. > Your butt should move more backward than downward. As you are lowering the weight, bend at the waist, stick your butt out and lower the weight slowly and as close to your legs as possible. As you bend over be sure to arch your back (or else you risk back injury). If you are doing the exercise correctly you will notice a stretch in your hamstring. Use a lighter weight to get the correct form and lower the weight slowly focusing on getting a good stretch in your hammies. Good luck., Aloha, Rich --------------------- --------------------- Far better to be uncertain Than to be sure and be wrong Note: Remember to remove the antispamming "NOT" in email address before sending me email From XjgrimesX@goodnet.com Sat Mar 21 07:36:28 PST 1998 On 16 Mar 1998 11:41:25 GMT, s3036712@mpce.mq.edu.au (Powdered TOAST Man) wrote: >A very special person named ROBO and Sonia, who is a *WINNER* said: >> >It seems like I'm really only getting my legs involved on the first rep >> >(getting the bar off the ground). On subsequent reps, I seem to be >> >working mainly my back. On this first rep, my butt is a lot closer to >> >the ground than it gets on following reps. Should I be lowering my butt >> >on every rep or what? >> >> yes. release your grip every repetition for a brief second (uh, in the "down" >> position, I recommend, hehe) , reposition yourself - that means, get your ass >> down! - and do another rep >> >So how far down should your butt go in the first place ? >I try to keep myself bent at the hips rather than the knees, keeping the >knees bent at not much less than 90 degrees. I think my back is more parrallel >to the ground, rather than vertical. Whaddya think ? If your back is parrallel to the ground, I am thinking your butt is WAY up there. What works for me is to set my feet (shins about 2 inches back from the bar for ME), squat down and grab the bar (not bothering to worry about where my butt or back is), THEN getting the rest of my body into position. Drop the butt - for me, this is just above parrallel (as if I were squatting) Raise the torso and head- a slight arch to the back, but not rounded. Try to think of standing, er crouching at attention - your upper body is STIFF. Head is looking up (45 degrees?) Take up the slack - prefferably by lifting the back so arms, legs, everything is "tight" - my butt does go up a little here, but mostly its the back. PULL - push your heels through the floor as you lean back, keeping the bar digging into your flesh, the pain will just help you. :) Put the weight down, repeat as desired (or until you run out of flesh on your shins) Jon L. Grimes Get your low weight, high reppin' bicep curlin' jgrimes@goodnet.com "I just wanna tone" ass outta my power rack. Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:25:17 EST From: Namgawd Subject: Deadlift science ------------------------------------------- I've been following the thread on pulls relatively closely. It sure seems that everybody has an opinion on sumo vs conventional and straight back vs round back. Unfortunately, with the exception of Lyle, I've seen very little opinion based on science. Therefore, I decided to put down some salient points regarding what research has ascertained. This is not my opinion, rather fact. 1. Experienced lifters exert maximal force at 50% of max lift height, the control group at 67%. The glutes came in to play at an earlier point for the experienced lifters over the control, likely to contribute to greater force development, hip stabilization, and erector function. Throughout the lift, in the experienced lifters, the quads became more and more involved the closer to completion the lift got. (conventional) 2. In a conventional deadlift, lumbar (low back) ligaments don't get overly strained in an attempt to keep the back straight. As the back remains straight, the muscles do the work. 3. Skilled lifters maintain a significantly more upright position at lift-off over less skilled lifters. Less skilled lifters showed greater variability in acceleration parameters of the bar, skilled lifters were more consistent. (conventional) 4. The sumo style results in 10% less joint movemet (lower back) and 8% less shear force on the L-4 & L-5 lumbars compared to the conventional style. However, a great degree of variability in the subjects existed, not allowing for definitive conclusions as to how this data can be generalized accross other lifters. (conventional) 5. Range of motion for the sumo vs conventional pull accross all joints involved is greater for the conv. style, though not significantly so. In both styles, knee extension was dominant over hip extension on lift off. Conventional style relies more on the back musculature to complete the lift over the sumo style. The bar travelled a significantly longer distance in the conv. vs sumo style and thus the sumo lifters worked less to complete the lift. Somo style allows the bar to travel closer to the body than the conv. lift. Lift time was the same for both styles. The sticking point for the sumo is in the second half of the lift, in the first half for the conv. 6. The strength of the spine lies in its natural curvature. Whenever the natural curvature is compromised, so is the strength of the spine. Bringing the vertebrae out of their natural alignment can increase shear forces 9-fold. My opinions: Rounding off your back is about the absolute worst thing you can do. Period. Doing so with a load in your hands is like playing Russian roulette. Both styles of lifting offer advantages over the other, though the differences seem unimportant. It seems to me that the conv. style is more a test of strength over the sumo because it requires greater back strength and more work. At the same token, if your back strength is superior to your quad/hip strength, you'd be better off with a conventional style. If your back is weak, in comparison, try the sumo. This also holds true for developing back strength. Purely from a powerlifting perspective, the sumo seems superior in terms of leverages and biomechanics. However, in terms of building functional strength, conventional is the way to go. Now, from my perspective, there isn't one way that's better over another if you're looking at lifting max weight. You need to consider your own leverages and strengths and base your decision on that. If you look at the IPF world records, it's about 50/50 for style. And on a personal note, I'm just not impressed with guys who pull a lot sumo. Though they demonstrate a smart approach because of reduced bar travel, it's simply easier and less a demonstration of pure strength. Dan Wagman Subject: Re: Yet Another Deadlift Question From: Loren Chiu Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 06:47:52 -0800 Warren Dixon, DFW, 214-702-1903 wrote: > My problem is that when my back approaches 90 degrees(i.e as my back > drops to waist level) I lose the natural arch and my back becomes rounded. > No matter how hard I try I can only maintain the arch in my back for a > limited range of motion. :-( (perhaps due to inflexibility???) > > The gym *does* have what they call a "deadlift stand"; two vertical posts > with an arm about two feet off the ground that holds the bar. I suppose > that I could do a limited range exercise where the weight never touches the > ground (I'm 6'3", I don't think I can maintain the arch while bending over > far enough to put the bar on the ground even with 45 lb weights). Are you performing deadlifts or semi-stiff leg deadlifts? If you are performing deadlifts, you should not be bentover so much. It is critical to keep the back as close to vertical as possible. Regardless, the reason you are losing your arch is due to weak lower abdominals, tight hamstrings, and poor motor control. Strengthening the lower abs can be done using pelvic tilts or the various reverse crunches. Stretch the hamstrings following a workout, holding each stretch for 30 seconds. When you do perform deadlifts (squats, or any other exercise), ensure that you are contracting your transverse abdominis and lower abs to provide support for your spine. Loren Chiu From khan68@wolf-net.com Thu May 14 21:12:50 PDT 1998 ROBO and Sonia wrote in message >buy wrestling shoes > I second that, In the off season you can find wrestling shoes from about $35-55 Bucks (just got a new pair of ASICS for $41) Khan From weeden@leland.Stanford.EDU Thu May 14 21:15:01 PDT 1998 In article <6jaegm$b80@brtph500.bnr.ca>, Destruction wrote: >2. After cleaning the stuff up I thought to myself that I need to safeguard > against infections too. In this regard here is a question: > > Do you bloody shinned people clean the barbell before you deadlift? What > do you use? Is it required to clean it or do any germs/viruses die in the > open air (actually at the sight of all the huge people comin at them :-))? > If you're concerned about it, you could probably carry a little bottle of mild bleach and water solution. Wipe off the center of the bar before you lift, and, if you're really cool, after you're through. Ok, maybe that's too geeky. Or you could just lift in a gym where no one else does deadlifts. Unfortunately, there are plenty of those around. Kim Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:52:58 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Comments On Proper Technique Requested ------------------------------------------- Daniel Parry wrote, > >I would greatly appreciate a discussion on proper form in both Squat and >Deadlift. >I try to follow Fred Hatfields guildelines, but still feel strain in my >lower back. > I'm not sure you're going to get the answer you are looking for Dan. The fact is that both the squat and the deadlift have major lower back involvement. The myth has gone around that the squat is a quad exercise, but especially in the power squat form this is simply not true. I've heard a person say that Ed Coan maintains the squat is primarily a lower back exercise. I can't vouch for this second-hand info, but certainly watching Ed squat leads me to believe there is some truth to this. I think you have to expect lower back involvement, the key is using proper form to eliminate lower back (spinal column) injury. I'm no Dr. or bio-mechanical specialist, but to me this means: 1. Squatting and deadlifting with the back locked into an 'arched' position. 2. Maintaining sufficient flexibility in the hamstrings, glutes and hips to allow an arched back in the deep squat position. (Something I really have to work on!) 3. Building strong lumbar muscles in order to prevent injury to the spinal column. 4. Working the abs with heavy weights and low reps in order to assist in locking the arched position. Ideally you would use a sumo deadlift and a very wide-legged, upright squat to minimize lower-back involvement - if this is your goal. If you are like me the goal is to lift as much as possible. My hips and knees simply cannot take the sumo and wide-legged technique. So I use a conventional deadlift and squat with the 4 key considerations listed above. I also do a lot of lower-back exercise. 1. Good Mornings (several variations) 2. Hyper-extensions 3. Reverse Huper-extensions 4. Sumo deadlift off a block 5. Stiff-legged deadlifts (done in Hatfields 'Keystone deadlift' style) To me the bottom line is if you want to be strong you have to have a strong back. Hope this helps. Keith Hobman Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:50:56 -0500 From: Lyle McDonald Subject: Grip and the deadlift >Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 17:44:45 -0400 >From: Magoo >Subject: Training the grip for deadlift > >Can somebody recommend the best way to train the grip for deadlifts. I >deadlift using straps and want to know what is the best way not to let my >grip strength fall far behind my deadlift strength. Farmer's walk: walk for time holding heavy dumbbells Hang from bar for time Rack deadlift lockouts: load a bar in a power rack near the top of the DL. Lock it out and hold onto it until you drop it. Lyle McDonald, CSCS "GOTTA LOVE ME!" Baby Sinclair Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:37:07 -0700 From: Steve Townsley Subject: Re: Training the grip for deadlift First off, ditch the doggone straps when doing deads! What good will it do ya if you can deadlift 400 or 500 or whatever, but only about 3/4ths that without the straps? None. Also try farmers walks and really push the amount of weight you hold. I know ditching the straps did a LOT for me, got me up to 476 on deads. I had been planning on incorporating farmers walks into what I was doing but my plans have been changed for a while.... -- Steve Townsley mrsunshine@fishnet.net http://www.fishnet.net/~mrsunshine/healthzone.html Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:50:12 -0400 From: billf Subject: Re: Grip Strength Greetings; Not to over-simplify, but the first thing you should do is lose the straps. The best way to strengthen your grip for the DL is to DL. Also, you can train your grip by locking out a DL and holding it for a time interval (10 - 15 seconds). Do 3 of these "sets". Other grip training that you could experiment with is the farmers walk (holding two heavy dumbells and walking for distance). Another good one is this: take two plates (10s at first) and put them together, flat sides facig out. Then grip them, pinching them together with one hands and hold it. Not exactly specific to the grip strength needed for DL, but good for completeness. ANother recommendation is to check out the Ironmind catalog (http://www.gv.net/~ironmind/index.htm). They have some great books that focus completely on grip training, and all the different types of grip strength. Hope this helps! Bill Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 08:36:40 -0700 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Training the grip for deadlift Throw away the straps - never use them again. Don't use them for shrugs, rack pulls - nothing. That by itself will go a long way to improving grip strength. - Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Deadlifts w/o belt From: Dan Yourg Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 06:33:08 -0700 > Recently, I have read much that advocates the shedding of weight belts with > respect to squats. I happen to agree with this, based on personal > experience. I was wondering what people out there think about doing > deadlifts without a belt as well. If nothing else, it sure would allow > much easier movement, even more so than it does with squats. I have been squatting and deadlifting w/o a belt for about three months now, and feel great. I have had a lot of back problems in the past, and have seen a chiropractor for many years. So lifting w/o a belt was not an easy step for me. I really feel it has strengthened my core muscles, and I do not even think of it anymore. It also has made me very conscience of my form and technique. Reading anything written by Paul Chek has helped my knowledge base. I also stopped wrapping my knees. Dan Yourg Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 13:15:06 -0700 From: lucian_raicu@hypercom.com Subject: Strength_List: No subject given On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, 08:32:01, Michael Seeley wrote: "I've got a deadlifting problem: whether doing sumo or conventional, I can't seem to keep my butt down when the weight goes much above 225. I can deadlift over 400, but my form blows." In my opinion, you probably don't really have a problem. It is true, a lot of people recommned keeping your butt down in DLs, but in my experience, most of those are BBers, who are worried about "using their back" ( wouldn't want that, would we ). However, even for some PLers, this may be a valid way of lifting, but not THE valid way of lifting, and definitely not for all PLers. Guys/gals who have really strong quadriceps in relation to their back ( and glutes and hams ) muscles may find the "butt down" way preferrable, but a lot of people ( myself included ), whose backs are relatively stronger than their quads, prefer to start the lift with their butt further up. I personally get tremendous leverage from this technique, as compared to my "butt down" lifts. Find out what works for you; if you really want to keep your butt down, lower your weights ( and perhaps do more work on squats - in particular high-bar squats ). Alternatively, resign yourself to the fact that you are one of those people whose back outshines all else - that's certainly the way I want to end up. Lucian Raicu I'm with Lucian on this, but with one caution. DON'T ROUND THE BACK!!! I try and start my lift as much as possible in a shoulder drop, arched back position. I still keep a rather high butt, but man if I let my back round I'm in big trouble. This has happened in competition and it isn't a nice feeling getting the bar to your knees and feeling the back 'bulge' outwards. Lucky I wasn't strong enough to do serious damage! - - Keith Hobman Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 15:20:46 -0400 From: Wade Hanna Subject: Strength_List: deadlifts?? (my succinct reply) >Ok, questions for the big pullers out there. What are your >favorite deadlift exercises and why? Pulls on a plate or block? >Rack pulls? This is a tough question when you get down to it. I think of the DL in three major components 1) the start off the floor 2) the mid section 3) the lockout. Now I pull sumo so I kind of fall into the traditional "slow start" format too. I think this is the hardest part of the lift and if I can crack it off the floor then I almost always get it up. NOTE: I am assuming that Abdominals are an integral part of training and won't touch on them. They need to be done with weights to further increase the strength of the abdominal wall and obliques as opposed to higher repetitions. Train them like anything else with ever increasing tension. For the first portion (1) I like box squats, wide deck leg presses, and DL's off a block. The boxes help to simulate the leg placement and hip drive and you can get your lean to match about where it will be during the DL. This is nice because you can put extra work on the bigger hip/glute area without over working your smaller upper and middle back. Wide deck leg presses are for the same reason but, this further eliminates the tension on your lower back. Lots of people don't like leg presses. I only utilize a real wide deck so I can simulate my DL or squat stance and it helps to teach me to relax the hips and strengthen them without giving my lower back the once over. DL'ing off the blocks will get you tight for the start in a more cramped and disadvantageous position than normal. I find it easier to get set on a regular DL after working in the more cramped start of DL'ing off a block. Helps to strengthen that super low position...also helpful for "hole shots" in the squat. Okay, on to the second (2) portion. I really like Stiff legged DL's, Zercher lifts (obviously!), and Power Cleans. The SLDL and the Zercher are definitely strengthening your lumbar and this is critical in this portion. I like the fact they are being trained at a slightly disadvantaged position. When I get to a better base for low back stuff I always come back stronger after having done those. The Power Cleans are great for building that hip drive forward. Once the bar passes my knees I try to accelerate it in the DL. If I can stay in position (hip rise equal to butt rise) by the time it reaches my knees I like to really get after it...kind of like kicking in the nitrous tanks. This doesn't always happen but, it is what I try to do. PC's will build that explosion in the mid point and really teach your body to drive your hips forward and under you. For the third part (3) I really only have one big one that I like. Shrugs. Using Louies system I will do a trap bar shrug for a couple sets of 15's about 8 weeks out for 3-4 weeks. The last three to four weeks I shift it to barbell shrugs very heavy for 5's. Not the bend your knees and dip under the bar shrug either...a definite pull with your traps and shoulders. I keep my head a little forward to offer some more room for the traps to come up. It is inevitable that you will have some motion in your legs but, you can minimize this if you concentrate on it. Currently I am up to using 625+ for 4x5 with this (don't use a belt either as this will help to strengthen your abdominal wall statically) and I have no problem getting my shoulders back if they happen to droop at upper limit attempts. I have stumped myself there before which is why I am emphasizing this in case the shoulders get a little out of place. I find this the most common groove error personally. I have said it before and I still think it is a good practice. A yell of sorts once you get it started. I think you can get the intra-abdominal pressure too high if you hold your breath for the entire lift. I generally keep mine held until the bar starts off the floor. Then either give a quick grunt or a drawn out one depending on how fast she is movin'. The yell also helps to tighten your Abdominals and this is critical in staying stable throughout the first half of the DL. Anytime I hold my breath for the entire lift I see stars and I don't think that is good for longevity. If I give a good grunt then I never have the headache or dizzy feeling afterwards. Just my opinion on this and I don't know if there is any validity to it but, it seems to work for me so take it for what it is worth. One final point, I like to train DL's in the conventional style throughout my training cycles. I generally include 3-4 weeks of conventional with a reverse than competition grip. I like the 4x3 range and use about 65-70% without a belt. I like to do this after my maximal effort squat day motion. This will help to strengthen my DL in a slightly different manner. I think all lifters who DL should train in the opposite style some to hit it from a slightly different angle. As for frequency, if they are a dedicated day then I would say at least 10-14 days between deadlifting days. I used to deadlift once every other week and this was not too much. I only hit DL's about 5-6 weeks out form a meet now. This is the mini peak that Louie has suggested and I have found it to work well. I spend the rest of the time working on the specific areas of the motion instead of doing the motion all the time. The 5-6 weeks gives me enough repetition to remember my groove. If you are unfamiliar with the mini peak it is on STRENGTH under Jason's Louie FAQ and one of my articles as well. >I know we've got several big pullers out there? Dan, Joey, Wade, >Tom, Betty? I don't know if I should be classified as a "big puller" but, I do like to Deadlift. I hope that something in the above is useful, I am by no standards an expert of even a really "good" lifter. So, take it for what it is worth. I think that if all else fails then just a good dose of deadlifting is the best cure. There really is a "groove" on the DL.;-) Don't do repetitions but, set up for each one like it is a meet pull. This way you have to set your grip and so on. Practice makes perfect and the more times you get the "first rep" the easier that limit attempt is. On top of everything else training wise...just get mad at the damn bar!! Like Poohbear says...DLGW (Don't let gravity win)! It really is just that simple. Good liftin and hope this helps. I was even brief!!!! ;-) - -wade Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 12:20:18 +0100 From: Andy Clegg Subject: Re: Strength_List: Sumo DL Torque Keith Hobman wrote: > Here's the problem. I'm working on 5 sets of 4 right now and as I get into > the 3rd or 4th rep on the last couple of sets the bar starts to torque > clockwise (as I'm looking at it). I'm pulling each rep from a dead stop on > the floor - this isn't a bounce deadlift. I use an opposed grip with my > right hand 'over' the bar (palm faces into me) and my left hand under the > bar (palm faces away from my body). I don't know what gives here. I've got > a firm grip and I've never had this problem with a conventional deadlift. > My hands are spaced evenly and fairly wide. Keith, have you tried a narrower grip. My hand spacing when sumo'ing is no more than 18 inches, significantly narrower than when my conventional deadlift. It could be that your grip is interfering with the motion of the bar as it drags up your thighs. But then again, it could be anything really. There are four photos of different stages of my sumo deadlift which might (or might not) be useful at: http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~acc/plift/photos.html I ought to get some newer/better ones scanned in. Hope this helps. Andy Clegg________________________________andy@isc.eee.strath.ac.uk___ Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:13:26 -0700 From: Deepsquatter Subject: Re: Strength_List: Sumo DL Torque Keith, Try moving your foot out an inch or two on your undergrip side. The will stop the helicoptering. Also, someone suggested moving your hands in. The might reduce the amount of "rub" on the legs but don't move them in so much that you reduce your ability to keep your back flat and also to get your chest up. Keeping the arms too close will make your lockout a bit harder. JB Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:02:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Seeley Subject: Strength_List: Bleedin' Shins I used to have this problem (bloody deadlift shins) until viewing the Louie Simmons Deadlift video. In it, he explains that the bar should line up with the big knuckle of your big toe to start. This way, the bar takes a more straight line path throughout the movement, and doesn't have to swing out to avoid the knees. Worked for me, and the positive side effect was that my shins don't scrape on the bar anymore. Mike Seeley Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:14:29 -0500 (CDT) From: lylemcd@onr.com (Lyle McDonald) Subject: Strength_List: deadlift and shins The way I was taught to deadlit was to keep bar in as close as possible which generally means it rubs against hte legs. The person who taught me said he was able to deadlift with the bar brushing his leg hairs but without rubbing against the skin but this will be beyond the technique of hte guy I'm training since it's a new movement to him. Lyle McDonald, CSCS 'Fnord' Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:52:10 -0700 From: Deepsquatter Subject: Re: Strength_List: deadlift and shins Lyle, If you saw the pics I sent in you saw my "magic deadlift" socks. 1) They hold powder and give a level of padding to the shins with ou. 2) They are red .... I too, use the Simmons DL set up. At least fo my conventional. I set my feet so that the bar is over the joint between the feet and toes. I descend to the bar. Before I pull, I roll the bar towards me a bit. This gets it close to me but not rubbing for the most part. The way I see it rubbing is friction which is bad. Ideally, i'd like the bar to be 1/32" from my shins. So far I haven't acheieved this. - ---- Jason W. Burnell Subject: Re: Hamstrings? From: arct@cwave.com Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 03:54:23 -0700 > From: Bryan Chung > Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 01:25:31 -0700 > > Other than deadlifts and leg curls (either standing or prone), does > anyone know any OTHER hamstring exercises? I'm getting bored with > rotating the three (which are really two). Exercises that include hip extension and/or knee flexion will involve the hamstrings group. Try the variations on deadlifts like stiff legged and romanian. Good mornings are another exercise. Back extensions, reverse hypers, and glute/ham/gastroc raises are other exercises but require apparatus designed to perform them on (or a swiss ball). If you have access to a D.A.R.D. (dynamic axial resistance device) and a swiss ball, you can be creative and perform weighted knee flexion and hip extension exercises, as well as include load shifting techniques. Loren Chiu Subject: Re: Deadlift Form From: Mcsiff@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 04:54:24 -0700 >>I am going to begin seriously doing deadlifts soon. As such, I have been >>practicing with the form. My question is as follows: how do those of >you who do (barbell) deadlifts keep from hitting your knees with the bar? ***There are several different strategies. This problem is less common if one uses the 'Sumo' style of lifting. Also, if you use a narrower foot spacing, simply try rotating the knees outwards a bit so that you can pull the bar closer. I have found this strategy, popularised about 30 years ago by the legendary Japanese weightlifting brothers, the Miyakes, to be excellent in this regard. In general, ensure that extension of the back is not too marked or sudden in the early stages of the lift and that the movement is facilitated strongly by the lower extremities until the bar is past knee level - otherwise, this may cause the bar to swing in towards the shins. In training, doing continuous partial pulls with a moderate load for 3-5 reps between low shin level (just off the ground) and mid thigh level can help develop the proprioceptive awareness of a more appropriate pulling pattern over the troublesome range. At the same time, experiment with different foot spacings and different degrees of external knee rotation. Whatever you do, you will have to experiment with all the bits of advice that you receive from any of us, since no one lifter is the same as another. In doing so, if you have access to a video camera, film your lift and play it back in slow motion to see what aspect of your action may be causing your current problem. You may be surprised by what you see, even if you do not enlist the aid of a good powerlifting coach or biomechanist. Dr Mel C Siff Littleton, Colorado, USA mcsiff@aol.com From mdeayton@bigpond.com Thu Nov 5 20:31:38 PST 1998 FunBot15 wrote: > > >Hi! > > > >I'm having problems with my grip when I do bent-leg deadlifts. Even though > >I wear gloves, my hands get sore from holding the barbell, so I have to quit > >even though I haven't finished my reps. I don't want to use lighter > >weights unless that's my only option. Any suggestions? > > > >Cecilia > > Do stiff-legged deadlifts, you should have no problem with these, Except that stiff legged deads are intended to mainly work your hamstrings, glutes and lower back. Bent leg deads, on the other hand, mainly work your spinal erectors, quads and lower back. Of course, both exercises work other muscle groups in a secondary manner as well as the ones I've mentioned, vis. traps, forearms, lats. Having said that, both movements when done with heavy weight can lead to your grip failing before reps are completed. You have a few options - > or you could > just strengthen your grip. The Bot Man is quite correct. Grip strength is the critical factor here. > I like to do farmer's walk, you might try it. (NB. FunBot15 is the "Minister for Farmer's Walk") Farmers walk involves picking up the two heaviest dumbbells that you can carry, and with your arms hanging by your sides, walk around the gym until you drop 'em :-) If you are worried that this might look stupid, you could just grab the dummbells and stand still. The walking bit is optional. Just hold them until you can't hold any more. Another excellent way to improve your grip is to hang from a chin up bar for as long as you can. Pretend you are Stallone in the movie "Cliffhanger", or like any one of hundreds of other action movie stars who find themselves hanging off the edge of a cliff, tall building or airplane wing. While your grip strength is catching up to your deadlift weight, there is another way to ensure you are getting a good workout. When doing bent leg deadlifts, if you feel your grip is failing and you might not be able to complete another rep, put the bar down and *quickly* regrip the bar and keep repping. Let's say you get to 5 reps before your grip gives out, but you want to do 8 reps. You might still get to 8 reps if you briefly pause and regrip on the remaining 3 reps. By no means am I a deadlift expert, since I've only been doing the movement since January. But I know where you're coming from, because when I'm pulling my maximum set (only a pissy 285#) I've got to regrip after 3 reps and then do singles to reach my total set of 6. Stick with it, deads are a very productive exercise. I wish I had started doing deadlifts right from the start of my weight training, instead of avoiding them for the first 2 years. I have this newsgroup to thank for "converting" me to deadlifts :-) -- .--_/\ ___ Mark Deayton / \ | mdeayton@bigpond.com \_.--._/ | http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/1322/ @ <--- ICQ# 314598 From brookman@rev.net Thu Nov 5 20:33:01 PST 1998 Erik L. Przekop wrote: > [I've been doing the Farmer's Walks, and it *has* helped my grip. I > haven't tried rack pulls yet, though. > Farmer's Walks are good for the grip but Rack pulls will definately improve them far faster than Farmer's walks because of the ability to use more weight.. > Can you give us a quick run-down on how they work? Approximately where do > you set the pins? How long do you think you should aim to hold the bar > for max development (i.e., approx. where do you balance time-under- > tension with weight lifted)? > Set the pins about an inch or two below the knees. Then squat down with your normal deadlift form..(sumo or conventional) and pull the weight up just like a regular deadlift. As for holding the bar, just do some reps (around 5) and continue to increase the weight until you can't get 5 reps. This should do adequate on the grip as well as help the deadlift too. Mike Brookman Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 13:50:25 -0500 From: Wade Hanna Subject: Re: Strength_List: AAARGHHHH!!! -Reply One thing that can help to eliminate this type of thing is a practice that Craig Terry talks about in the Nov. issue of PLUSA. When you prepare to start the pull....flex your triceps so that your arms are straight. This way you aren't trying to curl the extreme weight of a DL and it should eliminate the excess stress on your bicep. Just an FYI, if you haven't heard of Craig Terry he is from Michigan and is a life time drug free lifter in the 198. Last year he pulled a 760 in a 3 lift meet. If you look at the picture in PLUSA he has a great DL build, but that is still one incredible pull...damn close to 4x BW!! Super nice guy too. Speaking of great DL builds, also in the Nov. issue of PLUSA is a picture of Lamar Gant doing a pull at one of the Seniors meets......sheesh, no wonder the guy could DL so well!! The bar is not even clearing his knees at the top of the lift!! - -wade Subject: Re: Romanian Dead Lifts From: MStern999@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:18:23 -0800 Tips on form: Dr. Squat describes them on his site. He calls the Keystone DL since you have to have a posture like a keystone cop from a serial in the '20s. I never saw that serial so I rather have them as Donald Duck DL: tail way out and way up to stretch the hams and arch the back. Chest up and out (in the opposite direction of the butt). Just like Donald. You should feel a light stretch in the hams in the beginning. Keep the back arched all the time. Dont go much lower than your knees, with the bar always keeping contact with your legs. Wait a second in the lower position. Than go up, and this is very important, like you are a hinge. You go down with the butt, that is all. Automatically you raise you torso thereby. Like a hinge, the only way i can describe it. Tip on weights: You can use a lot. Romanian DL are much safer than normal SLDL IMO. Manuel Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 10:09:20 EST From: WestsideBB@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: Rack Pulls I used to rely heavily on rack pulls as an assistance move for the deadlift. Not anymore. I now use them sparingly. There just isn't enough carry-over from the rack to the actual floor. I have pulled up to 100 pounds more from the rack than I have in competition. One thing to remember is that when deadlifting from the rack, you can set up in a most ideal position. What one should do, is try to emulate the exact position that they will be in at that point during their actual lift. The legs are taken out of the lift which also makes it hard, however the shorter range of motion should make up for that. I have had a weak deadlift lockout since I began powerlifting four years ago. It has improved greatly but is still my weakness. I can seemingly pull anything to mid-thigh and then those last two to three inches take forever. I have tried everything I can possibly read or think of. I think one of the best remedies has been deadlifting off of blocks per the recommendation of Louie Simmons. He explains, that if you build up your strength (off the floor), you will eventually blow through your sticking point. I had a weak deadlift lockout post on the training forums section of GoHeavy.com recently and got some fair advice. If anyone has any additional advice for Steve and I, we would really appreciate it. Thanks in advance. Stay strong, Matt Gary, CSCS Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 11:11:35 -0800 From: Phil Andrews Subject: Re: Strength_List: Rack Pulls At 08:48 AM 12/1/98 -0500, you wrote: >Anyone have any experience and/or opinions regarding the carry over of rack >pulls to an actual deadlift? For instance, I have been doing rack pulls at >just below my knee for the last three weeks. Due to the unnatural position >of this pull, it feels almost like a shortened stiff leg deadlift. I've >pulled 600 from this position. Has anyone here pulled more from the floor >than they have in the rack at this position? Just seems to me that all the >legs are taken out of the lift and you should be able to get more from the >floor with good explosion? Any opinions are actual experience here? Thanks. > >Steve Dana >Grimwood's PowerPlant Steve, I do only rack pulls for the DL, doing a few off the floor in the 3-4 weeks before the meet to get used to it. You have to be careful how you do it; IMO the right way is, as you say, like a partial SLDL. The point of the rack pull is to remove the legs and work the back. Whether you do more or less depends on how much leg drive you have in the regular DL. My old training partner and I each DL'd about 750 from the floor, but he could do 100 lbs more than me in Squat. He would do about 50 lbs less in the rack than off the floor, and I would do about 50 lbs more. One danger, as others have pointed out, is getting into a non-DL type position, basically with an upright back. You can lift an awful lot of weight that way (I did 1,000lbs with straps) but it doesn't mean much for the real DL. - -Phil Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:23:44 -0500 (EST) From: jcmassey@bsuvc.bsu.edu Subject: Re: Strength_List: moving deadlift On strengthening the grip for deadlifts...... One of the best ways of strengthening the grip that I've found is to set a height in a power rack where the bar lays across the spotting racks just below where you would hold a deadlift once you are erect. Load the bar with a heavy weight (near your max. deadlift), pick the bar up and hold it. Hold it as long as you can. You can let it fall back to the spotters if you lose your grip. Do this for a couple of sets. I think you can do it on a daily basis if you desire. I haven't read any research about it, but I think it is fairly impossible to overtrain the hand and forearms. When you grip the bar set it as deep as possible in your hand. Use chalk when you do deadlifts, it's the best for improving your grip. I haven't tried to use a hook grip for the deadlift. I've never seen anyone use it except in olympic style lifting. You might want to try it, but I think you would be better off with a conventional grip. I take it that you do use an alternating grip. You said your right hand slips. Is that the hand with the palm facing you as you lift or facing away from you? I hope this helps you. Jay Massey Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 23:50:30 CST From: Jason F Keen Subject: Strength_List: captains of crush As for carryover to holding the dead lift, actual holds with a bar will obviously mimic the movement quite directly, but as we all know from the list, that could result in injury (hope the bicep is getting better every day, BTW) and, again, I mentioned the gripper because it is something you can do wherever you happen to be and have time. Honestly, my favoritebe exercise for building the deadlifting grip is to do your lighter (or warm-up sets) of deads with the double overhand grip. If you are really pulling hard out of the bottom, this will be murder on your hands. Out of probably 12 powerlifters I have had do this to help a weak grip, none of them have been unable to get up to about a triple with 90% with this overhand grip. Obviously, when you then go to the over-under grip for singles or competition it is not hard to hang on. I have a friend and fellow strongman who has the goal of getting his name in MILO and the catalog, too. I admit it would be pretty cool, but I don't exactly lose sleep over it myself. (if my friend did it, however, it would become my life's passion since he would rub it in forever) I believe that in the catalog they say that if you can close any of their grippers about a dozen times then you should be able to about close the next level up. I am assuming that is a fairly arbitrary and anecdotal guideline, though...(don't tell me they have devised some kind of periodization chart for their grippers :) ) - --- Jason F Keen, NSCA-Certified Personal Trainer jkeen@iastate.edu Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:44:56 -0800 (PST) From: "Carlos F. Borges" Subject: Strength_List: DL Grip Hi All, Been lurking for a long time but wanted to add my two cents on building your deadlift grip: 1) Use a clean grip (double-overhand) on all warm-ups. 2) Use a clean grip for Romanian deadlifts, stiff-legs, etc. Believe me, 10 reps of heavy RDL with a clean grip will really set your forearms on fire. 3) Farmers walk is great but it is possible to cheat on the grip a bit when you use dumbbells. Another great exercise is one-arm DL with a barbell. You may be amazed at how little you can lift. Great workout for trunk stabilizers and wrists too. Impossible to cheat on this one. 4) Finger rolls - hold dumbbell and unroll fingers until you can just barely keep a hold and then curl the fingers back up. Really helps you fight the tendency of the bar to unroll your fingers. 5) Snatch grip DL - works the grip at a different angle. Also a good assistance move for the bottom of your regular DL. By the way Jason, great site and great work with the list. - ----- Cheers, Carlos Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:27:26 -0800 From: Deepsquatter Subject: Re: Strength_List: slow dead off floor Dan, Wonderboy has the same problem. In Sept he pulled 556. For his last meet I had him pull off of a 6" box using 50-70% for about 4 week. I added chains after the first week. Basically, he cursed at me alot but did the work. His last Dl day I had him get back to the floor and pull. His heavy set was 530 + two chains (roughly 600 at the top). He ripped it from the floor like it was nothing. Approx 10 days later he pulled 600 at the meet. You've seen him. At 6'4" he had a heck of a time getting to the bar to pull off that block. He hated me until he got that 600. He still hates me but he smiles more now. Jason Daniel Yourg wrote: > > I am really slow/weak on deads off of the floor, conventional or sumo. Jason W. Burnell STRENGTH ONLINE: http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/ From GSTYLES@ix.netcom.com Mon Dec 28 22:42:03 PST 1998 KennyCrox wrote: > > > > >is it good to try to get that last rep , i feel that my form breaks down , is > >it best to stop when your form breaks down or just pull that motherf****r > >till > >you cant lift it anymore? > > Being a Powerlifter, my deadlift is my best lift. I pulled 590 at 196 pound/50 > year old a few weeks ago. > > Ironicly, I have found that although my lower back is incredibly strong...it > also wears down quickly. I have found that going to failure in the deadlift is > a bad idea for me. > > For one thing, it takes forever for my lower back to recover. Age is part of > it but even in my 20's and 30's I had the same problem. > > Also, I once when for broke. My form fell apart and I screwed my back up. I > did the same thing 4 weeks out form the last meet. I was pulling 550 out of > the rack for singles and screwed my lower back up. It healed up before the > meet, although not completely, and I got my 590 dead. > > Dr Tom McLaughlin, PhD in biomechanics, wrote an artilce on the lower back > training for Powerlifters. He noted that the lower back can't take a lot > abuse. > > Powerlifter Guru, Louie Simmons, never works the deadlift that hard for meets > with his lifters. In speaking to him, Simmons told me, "why work an exercise > that takes more than it gives back". > > I now do Power Cleans, Reverse Hypers, and the Ham/Glute machine for lower > back. About 6 weeks from the meet, I do rack pulls from my sticking point...my > knees. I never do a regular dead until I get to the meet. > > My dead has gone from 545 to 590 over a 5 year period. Considering I am 50 and > have no genetics...I consider that great. > > The deadlift record in my age group in theNASA sanctioned Powerlifting > organization is 611...so I must be doing something right. > > Listen to what other have to say and then play with it. Like the guy said, > "there ain't no free lunch"...sometime you have to experiment...put the time in > and see what works. > > Best in lifting...from the geriatric crowd...smile.. > > Kenny Thanks, Kenny. What a great reply. Congrats on the success with your deadlift and thanks again for all your insight. ps