Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 07:27:54 -0700 (PDT) From: ckm@netcom.com (Colin K. Mick) Subject: Fat bars Regarding "fat bars". try IronMind Enterprises, PO Box 1228, Nevada City, CA 95959 (916) 265-6725. The 1996 catalog lists 2" and 2.5" dumbell bars and they carry a 2" barbell bar called "Apollon's Axle." They also carry grip work tools you may find interesting. Colin Mick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:01:27 -0600 (MDT) From: Paul Young Subject: RE: fat bar I sent a message to Don Speray after his post in WEIGHTS-PLUS concerning fat bar work. I am a believer in the all-around value of using fat bars in your training. For training athletes, there is nothing better for developing functional strength!!! For grip strength and forearm development, nothing else comes close to matching what a fat bar can do for you. After several years of diligent training on a fat bar (2 1/2" and 3" diameter bar) one of my football players has recorded the following bests in training: 330 lbs. x 1 rep on a 2 1/2" bar 200 lbs. x 30 reps on a 3" bar (YEOW!!!!) And most recently, he performed a one-handed deadlift on a 1 1/4" cambered bar with 530 lbs. This was without a hook grip just a plain old grab onto the bar and lift grip. This is not only impressive from the amount of weight lifted but that he did this on only his fourth time performing the lift (he did 500 lbs. the second time that he ever performed the lift). He credits fat bar deadlifting for reps and singles for developing the strength needed to lift 530 lbs. with one hand. When he started out, he could not perform a set of 20 reps with 150 lbs. on a 2 1/2" bar without rest-pausing the reps. HAMMER STRENGTH makes fat bars (or what they call thick bars in 2" and 2 1/2"). Randy Strossen at IronMind Enterprises makes a 2" bar that he calls Apollon's Axle. The bars from both places are rugged and fairly priced. There may be other places that sell them but these are the only two with which I am familiar. I had a local welder weld some 2", 2 1/2", and 3" pipe over some old bent olympic bars that I had in the weight room. I hope this is helpful to you. Give fat bar work a try and you will soon find out why the old strongmen had fantastic grip strength and forearm development. Best of luck with all your training! Paul Young, strength coach Black Hills State University From: bapiche@lazrus.cca.rockwell.com (William A. Piche) Subject: Re: sumo vs. regular deadlift Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 22:34:36 GMT In article <4de3lf$605@mailer.mda.ca>, garry@mda.ca (Garry Holmen) writes: |> Daniel A. Johnson (johnsond@vt.edu) wrote: |> : As for the advantages. Sumo is usually harder to get of the ground, |> : by takes less to lock out. Conv style is easier to get off the ground |> : but is slower at the top. |> |> Hmmm... I experience just the opposite. Conventional is hardest right |> off the ground and it flies once I budge it. Sumo it comes off easy but |> it's harder to lock out at the top. |> |> Garry This gets back to your pic maybe Garry...but the *majority* of lifters I have talked to and what I have read for the last 15 years...says that it is harder for the sumo lifter off the ground and easier for lockout and opposite for the conventional. Just my 2 cents... -- Bill Piche (bapiche@cca.rockwell.com) From: deadlift@usa.pipeline.com (Mr.Deadlift) Subject: Re: sumo vs. regular deadlift Date: 16 Jan 1996 00:30:49 GMT In article , bapiche@lazrus.cca.rockwell.com (William A. Piche) wrote: > > This gets back to your pic maybe Garry...but the *majority* of lifters I > have talked to and what I have read for the last 15 years...says that > it is harder for the sumo lifter off the ground and easier for lockout > and opposite for the conventional. I have to agree with Hit Jedi Bill I have done both in training, and the above holds true. I will also point out something else that I have observed about deadlifting. The majority of people who are good squatters (and have a strong lower body), prefer the sumo deads, because sumo deads rely more heavily on lower body strength than lower back strength. But, people who are not as good a squatter, usually prefer conventional style deads because they do not rely on leg strength as much. I fall into the latter category. The sumo deads do feel more "natural" to me, but I can do 10% more weight in the conventional style than sumo. Peace, Mr. Deadlift -- From: garry@mda.ca (Garry Holmen) Subject: Re: sumo vs. regular deadlift Date: 18 Jan 1996 17:59:02 GMT William A. Piche (bapiche@lazrus.cca.rockwell.com) wrote: : : Make sure you give it a good chance, i.e. make sure you get comfortable with : the technique first before trying to beat your other technique PR. Solid advice... right now I'm just getting the hang of and improving my sumo style. I've got to find that supersitious foot stance now... 8^) ( You know how everything has to be exactly right before you attempt a deadlift. 8^) ) The biggest difference to be is the sensation of the hands brushing against my thighs. In some cases near failure it almost feels like my hands might pop open. Just psychological I think though. I'm doing a mass/weight lifting cycle followed by a basic PL cycle that should take me to March. I have a competition in June (They cancelled one at the end of February... grumble.) And depending which deadlift I feel more comfortable with I'll train that one for that contest. Garry From: beucker@uoft02.utoledo.edu Subject: Re: sumo vs. regular deadlift Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:54:57 GMT In Article <4dglvh$rvr@mailer.mda.ca> garry@mda.ca (Garry Holmen) writes: >Mr.Deadlift (deadlift@usa.pipeline.com) wrote: >: bapiche@lazrus.cca.rockwell.com (William A. Piche) wrote: >: >: > >: > This gets back to your pic maybe Garry...but the *majority* of lifters I >: > have talked to and what I have read for the last 15 years...says that >: > it is harder for the sumo lifter off the ground and easier for lockout >: > and opposite for the conventional. >: >: I have to agree with Hit Jedi Bill >: I have done both in training, and the above holds true. I will also point > >OK... perhaps I'll concede the point that I'm a mutant. 8^) > >I find that because I have very long arms that it is very easy for me to >drive the weight off the ground in sumo and more difficult to lock out. > >As for which I can do more weight with I'm doing a cycle of sumo right >now just to experiment. I'm trying some advice from Jedi Bill... we'll >see how it turns out. > >Garry I feel that all lifters should train the conventional style deadlift, the majority of the year. If you are a beginner or a bodybuilder there should be no reason to use the sumo style. I compete using the sumo style but only switch out to it about 8-10 weeks away from a contest. My sumo style deadlift is the exact foot spacing as my squat, except my toes are pointed out more. By staying conventional I work my lower back harder. The squats work my legs and hips. So when I put both together during competition the results are excellent. Besides a majority of the top deadlifters are conventional, with exceptions of course (eg. Dan Austin, Ed Coan, etc. Bob Eucker From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: Help on Deadlift Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 01:15:47 GMT tmorris275@aol.com (TMorris275) wrote: >I have been doing squats for the last five weeks (once per week, >2x20) You didn't ask, but I'd cut the squats down to 1x20 if you are really working them hard. >and would like to add the deadlift on the second workout day each >week so that the squat and deadlift are not performed on the same day. good idea >1. Which type of deadlift is better for overall mass gain-- stiff leg >deadlift or the straight leg deadlift? I think you mean bent leg vs. stiff leg deadlift. Overall, the bent leg is better for mass gains. Additionally, the bent leg version can be done sumo style (the type many powerlifters use and maybe less efficient for mass gains than regular, JMHO). Also, many trainees have had success with the trap bar deadlift which falls somewhere between a squat and deadlift. For more details use a dejanews search engine. There were several posts a week or 2 ago. >2. Are they both equally safe (provided you use the correct form) or is >one more likely to cause injuries? They are both safe ONLY when done with proper form. Because you'll be handling heavy weight, any sacrifice in form can be dangerous. >I tried the bent leg deadlift for the first time yesterday. I only used >1/2 my body weight (I weigh 169 lbs) and today my shoulders are unusually >sore but my lower back and glutes are only slightly sore. I didn't think >that the bent leg deadlift worked the shoulders. If not, is the soreness >in my shoulders just because I have never done the deadlift before or is >this a symptom of a specific form problem? Was I perhaps unknowingly >jerking my arms up during the lift? Any advice would be appreciated. It could be. Don't try to shrug your shoulders up. Just keep them from slumping. Also, don't try to bend your arms. Just stay tight. Keep the weight as close is possible. I seen one guy use Vaseline on his shins because he tore them up so bad. During the initial lift, try to squeeze the weight off the floor. You shouldn't jerk at all. At the top, don't lean back. Slowly progress up in weight and ask a knowledgeable trainee (not necessarily the biggest guy) to check your form. Also, since you are starting out, just do them with an overhand grip. That way your grip will keep up with you back strength. Good Luck! -- Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu University of Louisville, KY From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: Deadlift reppin' Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 02:47:02 GMT chass@unixg.ubc.ca (Calvin Hass) wrote: > About deadlifts -- when I'm lifting heavy, I find that I can't >keep reps going one after the other without rest. I usually end up >pausing for about a second or so at the bottom. right about where they start getting tough, right? > Does the resting between reps take away from the effectiveness >of the DLs? Should I go lighter so that I can do all reps one >after the other? I would continue to do them rest-pause style to get the maximum effectiveness from the deadlift. Trying to do them quickly one after the other will cause you to break your form. Set the bar on the floor/rack, reset yourself and pull up again. Good luck! -- Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu From: tlode@nyx10.cs.du.edu (the tree by the river) Subject: Re: Dead Lift Problem Date: 16 Jun 1996 05:50:03 -0600 In article <4pvol2$bvh@news.paonline.com> "barry j. sullivan" writes: >I've noticed that I'm nearly taking the skin off my shins while >performing the dead lift. While common sense would tell me to back my >legs up a bit, I still continue to rub my shins against the bar by the >third or fourth set??? > >Your thoughts appreciated. Maybe sweatpants is my answer? Backing up your legs (without also backing up the bar) is probably not going to work too well unless you also back down on the weight; if there's a way to keep the bar from scraping up your shins, especially in the last rep or three, I don't know what it would be. Personally, I wear two pairs of sweatpants when I do heavy deadlifts, though I've wondered lately of a pair of chaps might not be the thing (though they'd probably look darned silly). If you haven't already, you might also try doing deadlifts sumo style, since that usually scrapes the shins a bit less for me (though one time when I was doing some pretty high reps, I managed to wear through the skin on the backs of my hands scraping them against the sweats repeatedly on the way up; didn't notice until the end of the (rather long) set). -- Trygve Lode | 6529 Lakeside Circle, Littleton CO 80125 | (303) 470-1011 From: drsquat@aol.com (Dr Squat) Subject: Re: Dead Lift Problem Date: 17 Jun 1996 22:19:34 -0400 barry j. sullivan (barry.sullivan@paonline.com) wrote: : I've noticed that I'm nearly taking the skin off my shins while : performing the dead lift. While common sense would tell me to back my : legs up a bit, I still continue to rub my shins against the bar by the : third or fourth set??? : : Your thoughts appreciated. Maybe sweatpants is my answer? This is a SURE sign of pulling with your back initially instead of with your legs as it should be. CONCENTRATE! Pull with your LEGS, leaving your back at the same angle to the floor for the first half of the pull. Fred Hatfield, Ph.D., MSS, "Dr. Squat" International Sports Sciences Association Certification for Strength Coaches and Personal Fitness Trainers http://www.tgx.com/cpu/frehome.htm From: sonofsquat@aol.com (Sonofsquat) Subject: Re: Dead Lift Problem Date: 17 Jun 1996 20:26:54 -0400 I've noticed that I'm nearly taking the skin off my shins while performing the dead lift. While common sense would tell me to back my legs up a bit, I still continue to rub my shins against the bar by the third or fourth set??? Your thoughts appreciated. Maybe sweatpants is my answer? When I wrestled, my buddies and I got a kick out of finding blood on the mat and wiping it on our shoes... War scars so to speak! Related to deadlifting? Maybe vaguely at best. Scrapped up shins are a part of the sport. I scrap my shin during deadlifting and don't mind it one bit. I do, however bleach the bar afterward. But if you feel you must address the problem, use knee wraps on your shins. Wrap em starting from the ankle upward, semi loosely. It will protect the skin and shouldn't interfere too much with your movement. Frederick C. Hatfield II, MS, SSC1 From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: Dead lifts etc....... Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 03:14:48 GMT nycreal2@aol.com (NYCReal2) wrote: >I have three quick questions I am hoping someone will answer. >1) I read that deadlifts were an excellent full body excersice. Would >someone share the proper key elements/form I should use to avoid blowing >out my back or other important areas. I'll give it a try. Walk up to a loaded barbell. If you haven't the required strength yet or are very unfamiliar with the movement elevate the barbell to a comparable height of an Olympic plate. Use a slightly narrower stance than when you squat (unless you do a real wide stance in which you would need to narrow further). Reach down and grasp (overhand) the bar "outside" your knees. You must maintain a flat back throughout the mvmt. If you can't grasp the bar without bending your spine, you are 1) inflexible 2) have too wide a stance (remember it's the conventional stance we're talking about) 3) are not properly positioned or a combination of the above. One of the biggest mistakes people do is to look down at the bar. THis promotes spinal flexion. Make sure your toes are pointed out slightly. Take in a big breath and squeeze your abs hard. Squeeze the bar off the "floor" with a slow mvmt. DO NOT JERK THE BAR OFF THE FLOOR! You'll get hurt very quickly. While keeping the back flat (of course) straighten up at the hip while pulling the shoulders back. You should feel like you are pushing through the floor and not picking up something. At the top, don't lean back. Try to keep your shoulders from dropping too much. Now descend slow enough so that the bar doesn't bounce. Pause for a second or 2, then raise up again. Make sure your reps are picture perfect whether it's #1 or #20. Oh, at the beginning make sure your knee is bent more than you're back. You are not doing stiff or straight legged deadlifts. The lower back should only undergo an isometric contraction to keep you from bending over at the spine. Anything I missed guys? >2) A recurring recommendation on this board is "training until failure" >concentric eccentric ... Is this possible without a spotter, particularly >on excersices like benches, where when you fail you tend to end up with a >bar on your chest.. You could train in a rack. Bench from the bottom position or set up some J-hooks to serve as the lift off point. I also saw a bench from a company called Jubinville that had what looked to be adjustable racks on each side. Pretty cool. >3) Best excercises for broader lats. Tried seated rows and pulldowns, >don't seem to be getting anywhere. Chins. Weighted. Try and find a thick bar to do them on (a cable crossover usually does the trick. It's the first productive thing I've seen on them 8^) -- Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu ------------------------------ From: Keith Connell Subject: Re: Upper and Lower Hams Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 Mike Lane wrote: >I have noticed that people have at times recommended different exercises >to work the upper and lower portion of the leg bicep. Is this as wrong >as the suggestion that there are certain exercises that will work the >inner pec? What is the structure and kinesology of the hamstrings? It is important to remember that the hamstrings are a two-joint muscle. What this means is that they cross the hip AND the knee joints. Your body will attempt to compensate for say, leg curls. Ever notice why you posterior (your butt) wants to stick up while doing these? During the movement, the hamstring muscles are shortened (contracting) over the knee joint. Your body wants to compensate, so the corresponding bend at the hip (your butt will rise). See, the hamstrings want to stay at the same length. Don't take this to mean that the hamstrings are doomed, though. On the contrary, various leg curls are usually thought of as for lower hamstrings (close to the knee joint), where Stiff-Legged Deadlifts (SLDs) are for the upper hams (the hip joint). Previously, someone did mention that SLDs work the hams better because there is more meat there. I, myself, did not have any to speak of by doing just leg curl movements until I started with SLDs. I literally started with just an Olympic bar and started getting great results! THIS IS NOT A POWER MOVEMENT! Do not increase the weight too much or too rapidly. You must get into the groove and become acustomed first. The stretch is, I feel, the most important in SLDs. To do these best IMO, hold the bar while standing upright. Keep your back in it's normal lordic arch, while loosening at the hip joint only. As you bend over, feel as if you are pushing your stomach to the floor. Then, reverse the movement. If you can go past the middle of your shin (lower leg), then you are either doing the movement incorrectly or you have superb flexibility. On another note, don't neglect leg curls either. Just look for a machine that has a bend in it. Cybex makes one that is excellent. If all you have is a flat bench, place some pads in the middle. If you start in this position, then you won't have the "compensation" problem. One last thing, it is good that you are concerned about the hamstrings. Some people neglect them. Ever heard of a "pulled" hamstring? If you strengthen them, since they are about 40% of the leg mass, then there will less of a chance for pulling due to muscle imbalance. kconnell@spd.dsccc.com ()))-----())) DSC Communications Corporation \0/ 1000 Coit Road | Plano, Texas 75075 / \ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 From: Chuck Clark Subject: Re: Upper and Lower Hams & Re: Trunk extensions From: Mike Lane > I have noticed that people have at times recommended different exercises > to work the upper andlower portion of the leg bicep. Is this as wrong as > the suggestion that there are certain exercises that will work the inner pec? > What is the structure and kinesology of the hamstrings? There are 3 hamstring muscles: semitendinosus, semimembranosus, and biceps femoris (2 heads, long and short). The first 2 and the long head of biceps femoris all originate from the ischial tuberosity. This is the "sit" bone. The long head of biceps femoris runs laterally to join with the short head to insert on the head of the fibula. The semitendinosus and -membranosus run medially to the medial condyle of the tibia. All function to flex the lower leg (the leg curl). All (except short head of biceps) extend the hip and are involved in rotation and adduction of the hip. For reference, the short head of biceps femoris is very small. That said there is no reason or sense in trying to isolate the "upper" or "lower" hamstrings. You can't isolate one aspect of a muscle belly. This one goes the way of the inner pec. From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: Deadlift Question Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 14:03:20 GMT rogerd@prairienet.org (Roger Schmidt) wrote: > Can someone please explain the difference between a stiff-legged >deadlift as oppossed to a straight-legged deadlift? The former is tougher on your back at least in my case. THe way I do stiffs (not straights) is to conventionally deadlift it off the floor or rack. Put a bend in my knees and attempt to lock them there. Arch my back and descend. My knees do bend some, but my back stays arched. I built up to my squat poundage with these for slightly fewer reps. The straight leg variety has you doing much the same thing except ou lock your legs and hump your back over. When you are in full spinal flexion, your erector muscles are electrically silent. Therefore, you are hanging by your ligaments. Not fun. -- Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu University of Louisville, KY From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: Help on Deadlift Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 04:24:26 GMT gjvance@axionet.com (Greg) wrote: >OK then, what is the difference between the two (sumo & std)? Does one >emphasize certain muscles more than the other? Well, for one thing you have effectively shortened the distance in the sumo. Theoretically, the quads are more active in the sumo. Most good squatters do better with the sumo. Most tall trainees do better with the conventional style. Another point is the difference between the deadlift as a lift and as an exercise. The conventional is usually harder because of the increased distance one must move the bar. This is desirable. Why? Well, the hardest exercises are the ones that give the most growth, right? So, it stands to reason the conventional is a better exercise >from an exercise point of view. JMHO. -- Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu ------------------------------ From: TMccull230@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 Subject: Re: Dead lift lockout >I have a problem with the lockout on the dead lift. I am a >conventional dead lifter (close foot stance ). The initial leg drive >is very fast, but I get stuck at the point where my legs are straight >and I am only about 3-4 inches from the complete lockout. I had the same problem in the past but have overcome it by doing very heavy arched back good mornings and heavy hyperextensions. Just a suggestion! Tom ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 From: Phil Subject: Re: Dead lift lockout >From: Mark Lane >I have a problem with the lockout on the dead lift. I am a >conventional dead lifter (close foot stance ). The initial leg drive >is very fast, but I get stuck at the point where my legs are straight >and I am only about 3-4 inches from the complete lockout. I have tried >dead lifting from the power rack to overcome the problem. I start at >the top of the knees and have managed to get up to ~340kg - but my >dead lift from the floor is still stuck at about 275kg. >What other exercises would help with this lockout problem? Is the >weakness in the traps or lower back? >(I appreciate it is difficult to answer the questions without seeing >the actual performance of the lift - but any input would be >appreciated.) I've spent a lot of time thinking about this problem since I used to have trouble with lockouts. The most common source of the problem is curvature of the upper spine. Normal rack work is little use, since it is normally done with a straight back; the bar might be at the same height but the back is in quite a different position. To strengthen the spinal erectors I recommend taking the bar off pins in the rack at near lockout, having someone remove the pins, then curving the back down to lower the bar to the sticking point (with straight legs), then straightening the back. You can't use as much weight as in regular rack work, but nothing else will develop upper spinal erectors like these, after all you're actually putting them through a range of motion rather then using them isometrically. The bar shouldn't drop below the knees and there should be no curvature of the lower back. When you're done, have someone replace the pins. The reason to use the pin in-out manoeuver is to prevent the establishment of a straight back line of motion when you first lift the weight. Sometimes the problem comes from the shoulders moving too far forward; to combat that you need to strengthen the rhomboids with bent forward dumbell/cable raises or straight-arm pulldowns. The traps do more pulling up than back, and they normally get plenty of work in the rack. I don't think shrugs help the deadlift. After working on these exercises I've moved my limiting factor from the lockout to the grip. -Phil Andrews ------------------------------ From: Gitmon@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 Subject: Re: Dead lift lockout Mark wrote: >I have a problem with the lockout on the dead lift. I am a >conventional dead lifter (close foot stance ). The initial leg drive >is very fast, but I get stuck at the point where my legs are straight >and I am only about 3-4 inches from the complete lockout. I have tried >dead lifting from the power rack to overcome the problem. I start at >the top of the knees and have managed to get up to ~340kg - but my >dead lift from the floor is still stuck at about 275kg. Mark, You're on the right track with the rack work, but you're starting the pull too high to get the desired effect on your timing. Part of the reason for this is that starting that high in the rack allows a bar path that is virtually nothing like your regular pull. The solution this problem would be to set the rack at about an inch or two below the bottom of the knee. Starting from this position will more closely resemble your actual deadlift form. Also from your description I'd hazard a guess that your back migh be rounding. This could be remedied by using a flat backed approach that will leave you in a much better position to finish the lift. Assistance work to deal with this could include rack work, good mornings weighted back extentions etc. Hope this helps e-mail for further assistance Mark Hunter Portland ME USA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 From: Howard Trowbridge Subject: Re: Dead lift lockout generally lifting from a power rack should solve the problem. each week drop the pins one notch. possibly you can try to putting lifting off a block into your routine. i had a lifter who reached a plateau in conventional and the only way i broke it was switching to sumo style. in the mid west (chicago) i see a lot of sumo,when i was back east in ny ,there was a lot of sumo be used. howard trowbridge From: lylemcd@edge.edge.net (Lyle McDonald) Subject: Re: Stiff or Bent Leg DL?? Date: 5 Sep 1996 13:33:55 GMT In article <322E4EBF.5EC@courant.infi.net>, KB&KB wrote: > Ok. I am a female doing deadlifts. As it stands they are stiff-leg. I > have heard that this is primarily a back exercise, however I feel it > strictly in my hams and gluts. The rest of my body was pleasantly sore, > but there was no discomfort in my back. Am I doing it wrong? No, depending on what's going on in your low back (you really shouldn't let it round during the movement), SLDL's are primarily a glute/ham exercise with the spinal erectors getting worked isometrically. > Since my goal is to work hams and glutes, would it be more beneficial to > work with bent-leg? Now you have to define your terms. Most people allow a bit of knee bend during what's called a Stiff Legged Deadlift. While this decreases stress on the hams, it also lessens the stress on the low back so I feel it's a big safer. Typically, when people say bent leg deadlifts, then mean powerlifting style where you start with knees bent to about 90 degrees and pull the weight to standing. Yes, this gets really confusing as you can have: True straight leg SLDL Slightly bent leg SLDL (meaning that the knee is bent but the knee angle doesn't change during the movement) Bent leg DL's: typically refers to powerlifting style deadilifts where the knee angle does change during the movement Factor in whether your low back is flat, arched, rounded (dangerous IMO), and whether you allow spinal flexion/extension (again, not a good idea IMO) and you can get about a zillion variations on the movement. Your choice of one over the other depends on your goals, injuries, etc. As a general rule, I like slightly bent knee SLDL for hams/glutes and have people keep their back flat throughout the movement and use powerlifting style DL's for overall growth stimulation. Lyle McDonald, CSCS From: drsquat@aol.com (Dr Squat) Subject: Re: Deadlift form Date: 16 Sep 1996 21:08:43 -0400 sswain@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Stuart Swain) wrote: >I was talking to a guy in my gym the other day and he told me if the >bar scrapes my shins when doing deadlifts, that my form must be good. >Is this true? (His form wasn't particularly good and he wasn't scraping, >but I always thought my form was a bit out because I do scrape my shins) Are you a powerlifter? If so, of course you must do deadlifts. There is only one way to do deadlifts, regardless of the "style" you use (wide, semi-sumo or regular). That is, reduce the length of the moment arm. Keep it close. But scrape your shins? Not adviseable! Actually, deadlift technique (again, regardless of your style) should approximate a squatting movement. (I said APPROXIMATE! It's not exact, as there are indeed subtle differences. But ONLY subtle.) The major difference is that the bar is slightly more in front of you, meaning that the moment arm is slightly greater. That's why most great lifters have a slightly better squat than deadlift. Step one: push the floor down with your legs and hips (glutes, hammies and quads) until the bar reaches your knees. Your back is remaining at the same angle to the floor throughout this step. Step two: pull with your back. NO OTHER METHOD is acceptable...unless you 1) want to lose, or 2) want to injure you back. Fred Hatfield, Ph.D., MSS, "Dr. Squat" Home Page:http://www.tgx.com/cpu/fredhome.htm (Q&A included!) Business Page: http://www.sportstrength.com/ From: khobman@webster.sk.ca Subject: Re: Deadlift form Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:59:23 -0700 In article <51de7u$87c@enyo.uwa.edu.au>, sswain@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Stuart Swain) wrote: > I was talking to a guy in my gym the other day and he told me if the > bar scrapes my shins when doing deadlifts, that my form must be good. > Is this true? There is something to what he says. If you're scraping you're keeping the bar as close to you're shins as you can - good leverage. But I scrape and I still have to work on my form - especially keeping my butt down on heavy lifts. So there is more to proper form than just keeping the bar close. Flat back and butt down are also important. From: tmccull230@aol.com (TMccull230) Subject: Re: SERIOUS DEADLIFT PROBLEMS ?!?!?! Date: 5 Oct 1996 16:10:44 -0400 On 4 Oct 1996, ghost9@hotmail.com (ghost9) wrote: >Whenever I deadlift, I feel like I am going to die. After a few reps, my >pulse races, I get really dizzy, I hyperventilate, and I have to fight not >to pass out. Been there, done that!!! The problem....holding your breath. Here is what happens. As you pull the weight you either hold your breath or restrict it; this causes your glottis to close over your wind pipe and the pressure in your chest and abdominal area raise very rapidly. This pressure creates resistance to blood flow, reducing the return of blood to the heart, and eventually leading to decreased blood flow to the brain. This is called the valsalva phenomenon. Make sure that you force your breath out when you deadlift. The harder your force it the better. Also try putting your belt down lower on the abs. I found that if I push my belt down to the hip bone, I do not tend to have this problem as easily. Tom McCullough (713) 458-4313 voice/fax/page E-mail: TMccull230@aol.com From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: SERIOUS DEADLIFT PROBLEMS ?!?!?! Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 13:20:23 -0700 ghost9 wrote: > > Help, > > Whenever I deadlift, I feel like I am going to die. After a few reps, my > pulse races, I get really dizzy, I hyperventilate, and I have to fight not > to pass out. > > I eat well, have been lifting for years, am not taking any drugs > currently, and don't have this problem with any other lifts. Is there > something unique about the mechanics of a deadlift that would cause this > reaction in me? > > BTW I am doing bent legged dead lifts. > > I would appreciate any suggestions. Are you holding your breath for the whole set? DON'T. If I'm doing a set of five or so I will hold my breath for each rep but I will come to a complete stop on the floor between reps. This allows me to take a quick breath and also stops the bar from bouncing off the floor. It will make each pull harder but will help in the long run by giving you more power off the floor. Another thing you may want to try is multiple singles with short rest periods.Get to your training weight after a warmup and do 12-15 singles with only 30-60 seconds rest between. The first five or 6 will feel easy but you will have a hard time with the last ones. I hope this helps! ----------------- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 From: Brian Williams Subject: Re: Deadlift Form Deads are easily my favorite exercise, and yes a good portion of people do them wrong. This may seem overly simple, but I learned using a spotter. To spot deadlifts, the spotter stands to the lifter's side facing the lifter, then places one hand on his/her chest and the other on the back of the lifter's belt. If you need assistance on your lift, the spotter basically pushes his/her hands together, which pushes the hips in and the chest up. What all this did for me was to help keep my hips over my heels and help me avoid doing wannabe stiff legged deadlifts (my main prob when I get tuckered). I also keep the bar REAL close on my legs. I don't feel right if my shins aren't scaped raw, but I also do Kendo w/o men do tare and kote... ------------------------------ From: Jon Agiato Subject: Re: Help! Hamstrings, or lack thereof! Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 08:43:14 -0800 muscle@vnet.ibm.com wrote: > > I've deadlifted heavy, I've deadlifted light with high reps. > I've done seated leg curls, standing leg curls, lying leg curls, single leg > curls. > My hams have grown a tad, but not much more. Does anyone have a good > routine that will guarentee that I can't walk the next day? I want pain, good > pain! Hello, Although the correct choice of exercise(s) will more thoroughly encourage growthand is a large factor, signifigant growth will not generally occur without the proper nutritional support behind it. I would suggest that you first evaluate your diet to be sure you are consuming the proper nutrients, in your case for weight gain, I suggest 2g. protein/lb/LBM, 2g. predominantly complex carbohydrate/lb/LBM, and approximatly 20% fat split among four to eight meals a day, eating every 2-4 hours. If this requirement is met on a continuous basis (not just every once in a while!), and yet there is still no growth, you may try increasing your caloric intake, while keeping percentages within the guidelines listed above. If you then start to gain excessive fat weight, then stop the caloric increase, as there may be other causes for your lack of growth. Assuming that a solid, functional, and effective routine is being followed, one must remember that growth is dependant on many factors, as a genetic dependant trait. This growth, is deeply dependant on genetic expression, and as such, may require more or less stimulation, to stimulate an adaptive response. As such, you will find, all factors equal, that two people will have competely different requirements when it comes to strength gains needed to stimulate an adaptive response. One may be able to say, start with an exercise at 10lbs., and over a period of time move it up to 20lbs. before growth ocurred. The other individual may have to go from 10lbs to 100lbs, or more, to get the same response due to genetic expression. That said, it goes to reason that continual strength gains are an absolute nessesity to growth, and as such, a precurser, even in those in who do not seem strength dependant, there is always the curve. Pick one exercise, say the stiff legged deadlift, and over time increase your poundages in that exercise. If all factors are properly nurtured, after a certain predetermined gentic limit set by your body, your hanstrings will grow. How strong or how long it will take is up to genetics. But they WILL grow. Don't give them a choice. Good luck! Yours in strength, Jon Agiato 1st class NFPT U.S. Olympic Weightlifting Federation president: Synergistic Training Systems From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: Forearms Training. Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 23:35:43 GMT 104052.174@compuserve.com (Scott James) wrote: >I agree that for most people straps are a waste of a work out. BUT, >there is no way that I can go over 225 doing deadlifts, with both >palms down, without straps. I always do one set of 225 without >straps, but, that set always ends with forearm fatigue. My straps sit >on the shelf all week until deadlift day but it just wouldn't be near >the workout without them. Well, you just have to believe that you can go over 225 without straps. Do this: take around 300 and do a lockout in a rack with it. Hold it there for till your hands and forearms are begging you for mercy. Add weight and/or time for awhile and see if you can't do more than 225 overhand without straps. -- Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu University of Louisville, KY http://www.louisville.edu/~cmclarz1 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 07:45:01 -0500 From: RLansky@aol.com Subject: Re: WEIGHTS-PLUS digest 420 Dear Mr. Weaver : In regards to your proposed dead lift and 'only dead lift' routine, I would personally recommend that you take some points into consideration. 1. If you find yourself getting bored with the routine that you have now (which appears to consist of 8 or so movements spread over two days), a routine of just one movement may quickly begin to grate on your nerves. 2. One of the variables to consider in the design of any periodization cycle, or training paln of any type, should be variation. 3. If you do choose to begin such a program, the dead lift may not be the perfect exercise. Although it is a great structural, multi-joint exercise, some muscle groups receive very little work : for example the pectoralis major and latissimus dorsi come to mind. 4. There will exist a risk of overtraining the 'weak link' muscles ( the lower back) in the movement prior to being able to impart a positive training overload on the prime movers ( lower extremities). A preparatory conditioning program for the core muscles of the erector spinae, abdominals, and obliques would be definitely recommended before beginning such a program, 5. The subject of frequency of training. I can tell you, both as a coach and former competitior, that the dead lift can be extrememlely taxing on your body and your recuperative abilities. If you can only train once every 4-6 days, you may not be imparting enough of a physiological stress to your body to encourage positive adaptation ( i.e increases in strength, size, etc). And if train too often, you will quickly expose yourself to the dangers of overtraining and possible musculoskeletal injury. 6. If you are set upon performing such a routine, I would suggest that you center the program around an olymic style lift (if you are technically proficient in the performance of such movements or have access to qualified coaching) or a 'combination lift'. Examples of olympic lifts include : clean and jerk and its derivatives or snatch and its derivatives. Examples of a combo lift include : squat to push-press, front squat to press, Romanian complexes, Power Snatch to Overhead Squat, etc. 7. Just my own thoughts on your situation, nothing set in stone. Please feel free to contact me with any questions. Good luck with whatever you choose. Richard Lansky, CSCS USWF Certified Club Coach ACSM Certified Health-Fitness Instructor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 From: "W Mullan" Subject: Re: Dead-Lifts and only Dead-Lifts Reginald wrote:- >You suggest that three sets may be too much for the deadlift.Are >you speaking only of 'work sets' here? Is is appropriate to >warmup with lighter sets? In my case I perform five sets of >deadlift, but only the last set causes any challenge whatsoever. When I say 'sets' I mean work-sets. Warm up sets don't count. 5 warm-up sets is too much - go with 3. >This provokes my curiousity. Assuming that we are speaking of >'natural' athletes, are you saying the advanced lifter needs to >deadlift less often than the novice? Why? :From the day you start training you have the potential to increase your strength(naturally) by something like 300%, but recovery ability only increases by 50%. I can deadlift 415*8, so I am placing far greater demands on my body than when I could deadlift 150*8, thus the need for more recovery. >A couple of possibilities that come to mind are: >1. Training volume is higher for the advanced lifter, lowering >recovery >2. The advanced lifter trains more intensely 1: Not the case. I now train with less volume than when I first started training. 2: Maybe true. It is easier to go into the 'Pain Zone' as one gets more experienced. The main reason why more recovery is needed is because recovery ability does not incresase in proportion to strength. >In both cases, I wonder if this is specific to each individual. >Case number one, would an advanced lifter be able to train for >deadlift specialization (say for powerlifting), de-emphasize some >of the non-essential assistance work and gain from weekly >deadlifting? Recovery ability is individual-specific up to a certain point, and can vary with external factors (diet,sleep,supplementation,drugs,etc). But I doubt very much if an advanced lifter could gain from doing what you have stated (if sets are carried out to COMPLETE failure. The demands on the nervous system from this sort of training are enormous, far more than you can imagine. Personally, I have made my best progress by far from only deadlifting every 10 days. And even at this, I am alternating stiff-leg and regular deadlifts, so I am only doing regular deadlifts once every 3 weeks. >case number two, it seems that novices may be more disposed to >overtraining than advanced lifters. Even though the advanced >lifter is capable of hurculean deadlifts, the novice may be >severely overtraining with light weights. Am I well off base >here? Sorry Reginald, as you may already have guessed, you are way off base here. But hey, that's what making progress is all about, learning from your mistakes. At least you're asking intelligent questions! - Wayne Mullen.