BENCH PRESS ARCHIVE FROM 2001 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 05:56:09 -0600 From: "bobc" Subject: Re: Re: Path of Bar during BP > Just a question based on curiosity. If it is known that pressing in a > straight line decreases shoulder rotation and impingement in the > shoulder joint, what benefit do you see in using the "J" technique? I > know of many who use it, but I would like to get a better > understanding of why you feel this method is more beneficial than > pressing in, or as close, a straight line as possible? > > Christopher Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 09:11:45 -0600 From: Roger Subject: Re: Re: Path of Bar during BP I know this wasn't addressed to me, However I workout with 3 other guys and when spotting and watching them lift I notice that 2 of them just naturally do the J lift. The other one lifts straight up unless he gets in a real bind and then he has the tendency to start to J lift. I lift straight up but only after a lot of practice the J lift is more natural. bobc I taught myself the "J" curve years ago after an article in Powerlifting USA said that was the way all the elite Benchpressers benched. I don't think it gave any reason for the "J" curve...just that that is how the elite benchers benched. Roger Broeg http://members.home.net/gymrat45/NewIowaPowerliftingWebsite.htm Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 11:11:45 -0500 From: "Agiato" Subject: Re: Re: Path of Bar during BP Although I don't perform the traditional flat bench press, I use a modified J-curve in my flat closegrip benches. I keep one finger on the smooth on each hand and thumbless grip, lower to the sternum, elbows tucked tight to the sides, pause for two seconds, then explode up letting my elbows come out to the sides a little on the way up and letting the bar follow the natural arc back toward the rack. I can't imagine pressing in a straight line, as that is what usually happens when I miss a lift and am out of the groove and it also feels very unsteady, as if the bar is going to fall on your stomach. Then again, I do a lot of work for my shoulders (a lot of overhead work, combined with lateral and rotator cuff movements) so I don't suffer from shoulder injuries that often. Yours in strength, Jon Agiato 1st class NFPT USAWeightlifting Club coach ICQ# 97477446 http://home.earthlink.net/~syntrasys/ Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2001 22:49:42 -0000 From: "Christopher Nadzeika" Subject: Path of the bar during the BP I came to realize after a short time in this sport that there are no absolutes. The only thing that remotely resembles an absolute is the variance of opinion. In this sport, I believe less in the principles of right and wrong, and more in the ideas of good, better, and best. And what defines each is also a matter of opinion. More often than not, something has been said as being wrong or bad, but yet, there are those who continue to buck the trends, disprove the concensus, and progress to higher levels. To me, the most obvious is within the realm of technique in sport, specifically, the technical aspects of our sport, powerlifting. Technique. No other aspect of powerlifting is the cause of more discussion and the promotion of ideology than the technical aspects of the lifts. This is the most prominent thought in my mind, whether it be for the big 3 or assitance work to compliment them. I scrutinize over the technical aspect of each endeadvor I partake. And in doing so, I wish to find what is most advantageous for efficiency, development, and safety. I wish to find the best way to utilize the leverages innate about me. But more importantly, I wish to find the safest way to utilize the leverages about me. This is what led me to the straight bar path for the bench press. Some things are a given. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Mathematics has proven this some time ago. And seeing as how mathematics is a part of training, I find it wise to use it. By using a straight line, there is a definitive decrease in the length of the stroke in the bench press. I have long arms which is a detriment to the bench press, but by utilizing a straight drive line, I decrease the distance it has to travel to circumvent this short-coming. There is no need to make the lift any more difficult than it already is. Then there is the nature of the humeral head and its position in the shoulder socket, and the amount of strain it promotes upon it. A straight line produces far less strain on the capsule and the muscles of the rotator cuff. There is far less stretching of the structures inside the capsule due to the head of the humerus not dislocating out of the socket. Granted, this is just an opinion based on the shape of the bones and socket, their relationship with the soft tissues contained there in, and the biomechanics of the body during bench press. Right now I am researching my claim with one of the areas prominent orthopeadic surgeons, and a friend who is an orhtopaedic p.a., who works for said doctor. I'll soon find out if my theory carries any weight. The lats. I believe they have a very significant function in the execution of the bench press. I believe they dictate the point which the bar contacts the body after the descent. I believe that by strenghtening them in the same fashion which they are used(they are statically contracted during the bench press), that they help to reserve the strength of the muscles responsible for the concentric phase of the lift. It is far less taxing to use the lats to "lower" the bar than it is to use the triceps and/or delts. Logically, look at the sheer immensity that is the latissimus as compared to these two other groups. I think I would much rather use the prior. Call me kooky. In the end, I am just a powerlifter, not a scientist, biomechanist, physiologist, physician, or even trainer. I do have a mind though, and I have the belief there is a better way for just about everything. None of what I said is an absolute-just an opinion. And as I said when I started this statement, it is probably the only absolute in this wonderful sport we all love. Thank God for free will. Christopher Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 13:38:38 EST From: mortal13@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Path of the bar during the BP In a message dated 1/20/01 7:33:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mindfunky1@hotmail.com writes: > Any lat excercise has or can have a static portion to it. Westside > suspends bands from the top of a rack, slides a bar, lies down on a > bench, and pulls the bar to the chest. Once there, they hold it > statically for a period of time until they cannot hold it in said > postion. I do static contraction work on the lat pulldown and the > supported T-bar row machine. Hold the portion of peak conctraction > for as long as possible with a given weight. You can either do it > during each repetition for a brief period or by itself. Give these a > try or use this principle with any back excercise of your choice. I posted on this as well. I hang the bar from the rack with my bands and basically do pull downs with a reverse bench grip and normal grip. To add tension you can either add bands or twist the bands (make sure to twist them both the same). Dave Tate says to train the lats in the same plane as the bench. This has helped me immensely with my bench as well as added some size to my otherwise puny lats :) Jim Williams Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:19:26 EST From: TSteve4220@aol.com Subject: Re: Meet report - MD (long and depressing) In a message dated 2/26/01 9:23:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, PFeairheller@glog.com writes: > . I'm going to figure this out, but I need help. This list > is the closest thing I have to a lifting partner, so I need your help. Any > and all suggestions welcome. > There are a couple of things that come to mind. The first is the elbow pain. Perhaps you have tendonitus, bursitus or some other inflammatory jopint problem in the elbows. Do you experience any localized swelling after benching? Next is the fact that the more you train the weaker your bench gets. Maybe you are overtraining your bench and need to cut back on the work sets. Also, switching around your grip etc. will cause your bench to go down. You are using your muscles in a different way causing your max to drop. Next, is this your first full meet? Squatting will suck some of the energy out of your body causing your max to drop. You should always open lower in a full meet than in a bench or push pull meet. I have elbow problems also occasionally. I find that benching wider, as wide as possible seems to alleviate the stress on them. Lasy of all, we have all bombed at least once. Chaulk it up to experience and learn from it. You'll get it next time and do better than you ever imagined. Tom Stevenson Wheatfield,NY Keith Hobman wrote: > > In article , "Mark > Hartman" wrote: > > > I'm getting stuck right off the chest. I've never had problems with the mid > > range or lockout. (NOTE: My tris ARE the limiting factor when I do > > weighted dips, but they are 30% heavier than my BP). > > > > What are the best assistance exercises for getting the bar off my chest and > > into my stronger zones? > > The Westside solution? > > Floor presses - make sure you don't put any weight on your feet and touch > the elbows to a pad. > > Extra-wide grip bench for a 6 rep max - these are tough on the rotators, > but will help. Take a grip outside the outer rings. > > Speed benches. > > To be honest the typical answer to this is to wear a tighter shirt... > > The Sheiko solution? > > Bench press. How about the most simple solution: bench press from bottom position of the rack. Set safety catches so that the bar just grazes your chest. Lower bar to pins. Pause a solid 4 seconds or so. Press. You'll have to drop weight quite a bit but it will increase drive out of the bottom. Lyle Mark Hartman wrote: > > Why the four seconds? Make sure any and all elastic energy has dissipated. That is, part of the reason you're stronger on a touch and go bench is because your elestic tissues are storing energy during the eccentric, which you then utilize when you reverse the motion (this is why so many folks can bounce hte entire stack on calf raises and still ahve tiny calves, the achilles tendon appears to be exceptional at storing elastic energy). By pausing you allow this to dissipate, which forces your muscles to do more initially to get the bar moving (same reason pausing on calf raises at the bottom for a couple of seconds makes them so much harder). Should translate into increased strength off the bottom. Lyle > > > How about the most simple solution: bench press from bottom position of > > the rack. > > Set safety catches so that the bar just grazes your chest. > > Lower bar to pins. > > Pause a solid 4 seconds or so. > > Press. > > You'll have to drop weight quite a bit but it will increase drive out of > > the bottom. > > > > Lyle > > "Jack Darkes" wrote in message news:3B5D8016.74D0CB75@luna.cas.usf.edu... > Keith Hobman wrote: > > > Eccentric strength doesn't translate to concentric strength and adversely > > affects recovery. So I wouldn't. If you feel it is psychological just hold > > 275 over head and rattle it around a few times. > > Nonetheless, it might be more effective to lower it than to hold it, if the > goal is to "demystify" that amount of weight and one's ability to control it. > If it were an issue of strength, which it did not sound like, then a lack of > transfer might be more important. But, if it an issue of "numbers", then > lowering it under control is certainly one way to take the fear out of the > weight. > One thing you never hear about "negatives" is that they tend to destroy your hard won coordination in the lift. The effect is temporary but still takes alot of time away from actually improving the lift itself. You are not really working any harder lowering 150-180% weight than pushing up a 100% weight. All you are doing is stretching muscle fibre under load, which will sure as hell make you sore, but...for what?? If you want to get better at a lift is generally better to work on "the lift" or another closely related excercise with a similar movement pattern that looks after a weakness. I think they are useless. Yes, you get a little bit of a high by handling more weight than you usually do but then you get burnt out so quickly and can only do them so infrequently that what do you really get out of it? In Bb I think they have limited application but in PL they are not so useful from what I've seen and then to give people problems in vulnerable areas like Knee's, elbows and shoulders depending on the lift. Bryce In article , congo@africamail.com (lee embe) wrote: > For the last two months I can't get past 260 on the bench as MR1. > I can do 225x8x3. And 245x5x3. And 255x3x2 so it stands to reason I > should be able to go on past 260. But for some reason I am blocked. > Anybody got any training suggestions of how to break through? Lower your reps, up your sets and stay away from doing more than 225 for three weeks. Work the bench 3-4 times per week. Do up to 7 sets of 3 with 225, but do not go over 225. Vary the grip in and out on each workout. Lift as explosively as you can in all the reps. You can also bench twice per day, but don't go over 195 in the second workout. Don't go anywhere near failure on any of your other exercises. In the fourth week bench in Monday, doing 5 sets of 2 reps with 225. On Wednesday do 3 sets of 2 reps with 205. On Saturday go in and lift 275. Easy. you may even get 285. -- Keith Hobman Grip it and rip it! BIG BENCH - BAD SHOULDERS!" by Paul Chek Why all the fuss over a big bench-press? What does the sheer amount of weight that someone can push whilst lying flat on their back have to do with anything? If you're sitting with a bunch of guys and someone strong walks in, it's common to hear "I wonder what he can bench?". Or when discussing sport, the same question comes up, "How much can so-and-so bench?" When I go to a party and meet people, you can be as sure as the presence of beer that someone will ask, "What can you bench?" It is always great fun to see their reaction when I tell them "Not much, but I can run 30 meters flat out with Malu Mainu'u on my back!" The bench press exercise was never intended to be a benchmark of man (or woman!) hood. It is an exercise for improving the size and/or strength of the chest, anterior deltoids and triceps, nothing else. In fact, the star player on any team is rarely the one with the biggest bench press! Unfortunately, over-emphasis on the bench press often coupled with poor technique has led to a high incidence of shoulder injuries in both athletes and non-athletes. Additionally many people are not anatomically designed to perform the exercise as it is generally taught in most strength training texts, Personal Trainer certification courses and by many strength coaches. [Mel Siff: ***While poor benching technique may well lead to shoulder injury, there is no scientific or clinical evidence that provides clear proof that bench pressing per se will compromise shoulder health and stability - just as is the case with ALL exercises. This sort of remark is tantamount to saying that all running is dangerous because a large percentage of knee injuries occur during running activities! From our recent prolonged discussions on running technique, we should know by now that any exercise may be performed poorly or dangerously.] The Problem with Traditional Technique The bar is lowered until it touches the chest and then pressed back up to the start position. Everyone is expected to lower the bar to the chest; anything less is considered poor form, sub-standard, and even wimpy by fellow lifters. However, to perform the exercise under such guidelines requires a greater range of motion (ROM) than is found in the shoulder joint of most people - particularly male athletes. Why is it so important to work within the ROM of your shoulder joint? Some simple anatomy will help to explain this. The movement-restricting factor during a bench press is not the muscles of the shoulder; it is the special connective tissue casing around the shoulder joint called the "joint capsule". This highly specialized structure is anatomically designed to not only allow just the right amount of motion to prevent joint damage, but also contains thousands of specialized nerve endings called "proprioceptors". [Mel Siff: *** Only partially correct - the active, contractile muscles can restrict the range of movement from only a few centimetres of movement to the extreme of range where the non-contractile tissues such as the capsule and ligaments then take over to passively control the action. The capsule plays a far greater role as one reaches one's active range of movement. Chek is referring to the situation where one goes way beyond the position where the active muscles can exert any further force on the bar and nobody ever teaches that as a desirable or sensible way of bench pressing. If one observes the real bench pressing experts, namely the powerlifters, one would note that they use a tense body arch and very high chest thrust to limit the excessively deep descent of the bar. You don't have to rely on the capsule and ligaments to act as the final arbiters of shoulder safety! If injuries are being caused during bench press, it has far more to do with poor technique than the nature of the bench press itself. If one examines pitching action, which, by the way is explosive and ballistic (both condemned by so many "experts" in strength conditioning!!) and reliant on violent stretching of the joint capsule, tendons and other passive structures of the shoulder, there is far more potential to compromise shoulder integrity than any well-taught bench pressing. Even though I am a Weightlifter who is not often encouraged to do bench pressing, I have done so just for fun over a very full range with loads in excess of 140kg (308lbs) a few times a week (at a bodymass of around 90kg) for more than three decades and have never found that my shoulder integrity has been harmed in the least for snatching and jerking. In fact, I have never ever injured my shoulder in lifting training or competition and I know many colleagues who have benched and done Olympic lifts for many years without any shoulder problems. That's my anecdotal evidence to answer Chek's anecdotal evidence! ] Proprioceptors are special nerve endings that communicate with the brain to inform it of joint position and speed of movement, as well as pressure, tension and pain in and around the joint. Loading the shoulder and forcing it beyond the functional ROM limit will stretch the shoulder joint capsule. In most people this will occur by letting the bench-press bar travel until it touches the chest. [Mel Siff: *** Allowing any joint to move under loading over its current maximum range of active movement has been shown to produce exceptionally efficient 'functional' motor ability - see Iashvili's research cited in Ch 3 of "Supertraining". In fact, Russian sports scientists have long recognised that this sort of training enhances both conventional flexibility and a special strength quality known as "flexibility-strength" (see Ch 1 of "Supertraining"). Anyway, the level of stress imposed upon the shoulder is a function of several variables including hand spacing, load, path trajectory and rate of movement. Shoulder integrity also depends on duration of movement, relative reliance on the different types of muscle action (eccentric, concentric and isometric), as well as the use of prestretch, relaxation at the bottom of the action and rest intervals between reps and sets. By making no reference to any of these variables, Chek's comments are misleading and gravely incomplete.] Additionally, because the bench press is performed on a flat weight lifting bench, normal movement of the shoulder blades (scapulae) is disrupted. This demands that more movement must occur in the shoulder joint itself. As the bar is loaded with heavier and heavier weights, the shoulder blades are pressed into the bench harder and harder, further disrupting the normal mechanics of the shoulder girdle joints and overloading the shoulder. How far should you let the bar travel when performing a bench press? To protect the shoulder joint capsule from being stretched out or injured the exerciser must determine how far to safely lower the bar. It is essential that each person determine optimal bench press range of motion for his or her own shoulders, as each person is different. [Mel Siff: *** While this last comment is valid for any given instant, it assumes that one's range of 'functional' movement is a constant and cannot be altered. Of course, we all know that we should work within our own current range of movement, but we also need to appreciate that our current individual ranges may not be optimal for us or our sports. This is what the principles of gradual progressive overload and SAID (Specific Adaptation to Imposed demands) are all about. Since actions such as pitching involve explosive loading of the shoulder over extended range of movement, it necessitates enhancement of qualities such as flexibility-strength and explosive strength, as well as shoulder stability, which may be offered by appropriate forms of intelligent bench pressing. One should not throw out the bench pressing baby with the guru bath waters!] Dr Mel C Siff Denver, USA http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Supertraining/