From: f355spydr@aol.com (F355spydr) Subject: Re: back bombing.. Date: 1 Feb 1997 07:12:55 GMT There is no substitute for chins done with body weight. Use a grip slightly wider than shoulder width. If you have'nt done these, it may be discouraging at first, as they are'nt easy. Perserverance, though, pays dividends, and work your way up to the point where you can get ten good ones, then begin strapping weight on. Of course, any heavy back training, such as rows, helps add width to the lats, but chins may well be best for this. Interestingly, I just read an article on military fitness standards, and Marines have to be able to do three chinups, minimum. Gives you an idea how difficult they can be. Good luck From: sami@lodge.ton.tut.fi (Sami Koskinen) Subject: Re: Mistakes in back and bicep training Date: 10 Apr 1997 17:23:07 GMT Björn Morén wrote: > Yes too many people are just interested in chests and abdominals for > the beach season. It's actually quite sad to see a guy bench 450 (mer än 200kg) and then do seated cable rows with just half of it. Or even worse, do bicep curls with 45-pound dumbbells or less. There are of course many ways to train, but I want to move weights my mother can't. Heavy explosive reps also keep my speed up for other sports, like martial arts. In the end of my workout I might do a couple of light sets, only to make my muscles swell. >Sounds very good!. I think that perhaps only three >basic movements are needed for a good back workout: >Deadlift, chins and rowing. Maybe. These all are movements one should begin a workout with, because these can be done using heavy weights. Heavy rows are quite difficult though - for example narrow grip seated cable row can be done with maximum weights (if you can find a good machine) but with a wider grip it's difficult to keep form. Because I like to train biceps and back together, I also quite often start with barbell curls. I cheat a bit in the heaviest set (about 5x200) to get it all out of me. So, there are only three heavy movements for me: deadlifts, weighted chins and curls. After having started with one of these, the next movement is much easier to do. I don't want to use all the weight in the gym anymore. Once I even hurt my chest trying to start with a row machine (where you lie on a incline bench and pull a t-bar). In my opinion, one shouldn't train only basic movements, but workout should be started with one. >For me barbell shoulder presses behind the neck feels much worse than >pulldowns behind the neck. But I avoid both of them because neither >of them feels really good. You do a lot of pulldowns behind the neck? >Pulldowns behind the neck with 330 pounds? Are you kidding me? >Are you really using a strict form here? I'm not too flexible (either?), but I've learned to do these both somehow. These movements have been considered to be good for the shoulder area - if done carefully. Not my favourites however. I don't just do a lot of pulldowns behind the neck, I do a lot of pulls in general. My form may not be correct for anyone else but me. Anyway, I use a full range of motion and don't swing my back. Actually I find it harder to do reverse grip chins in these pulleys than pulldown behind the neck. Free weighted chins feel much more natural. Some day I'd like to break the ER (nearly +220) in one-rep weighted chin-up, but leg training has now made it even more difficult :) I've also lost much of the interest because people just keep asking my bench press record. So, I'll propably end up breaking my shoulders instead... how much should one expect to press after 3,5 years of training? This week my gym will get 2 new pulleys with 440 stacks so ... the fun begins ;-) -- Sami Koskinen From: ROBO (ROBO) Subject: Re: Back exercise's Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 09:13:55 GMT After one too many stiff root beers sultnoslam@aol.com (SultnOSlam) belched the following : > Been trying to hit my back lately and thing's still aren't working. >Haven't exactly found anything that would work. Since i am pretty new at >this. Can anyone recommend anything.. ?? > >James I have had a helluva time working my back. I always felt it in my biceps, and my shoulders seemed to overpower everything. A few recommendations which have worked for me: 1) superset chins with bent over barbell rows, and use wrist straps for BOTH exercises. This will help keep your bis out of the exercise, to an extent. 2) Use the exact same grip on the rows that you did on the chins, and maintain this grip for the entire workout. 3) If you have problems doing chins, then jump yourself up off a bench, or something, and then lower yourself slowly, about 8 - 10 seconds per repetition. Do as many chins as possible before your rows. Dont' stop at 10. If you do more than 12, hang some weight of your body. 4) Don't use heavy weight (at first) on the rows. I started using about 135 lbs. I double that now (4 years later!) Have patience with the weight. It takes time. 5) CONCENTRATE!! Practice flexing your lats and inner back muscles. Think about pulling your elbows back behind your body, instead of pulling your hands toward you, or pulling the bar to your body. 6) Drink water before and after the workout, but you may want to avoid it during. I get close to ralphing if I drink too much water. 7) Sets are to preference. You'll know the next night if you did enough or too many. If you still cannot feel your back, work it with moderate weight and a variety of exercises 3 times a week, and do NOT avoid working it if your back is sore. Use this as a time to learn to do the exercises properly. You will use lower weights, and you will learn rapidly which exercises are TRULY working your back, and technique will become a little more obvious. Some basic mistakes made on back exercises: 1)You'll probably find that you round your back too much, or 2) You heave the weight without much concern to the technique. 3) Another common mistake (on rows) is standing up too much. Try and keep your upper body about perpendicular to the path of the bar (yes, bar, NOT CABLES!!!), arch your lower back, and push your chest downward toward the bar. Enjoy! Hope this helps. P.S. Don't do the 3-per week thing for long. Just long enough to feel your back and make a decent assessment about technique. Really, if you have problems building your back, you're gonna HAVE to learn to do T-Bars and bent rows if you want to develop your back. Some do pulldowns and they work great for them. Thanks for listening. have a great day. :-) ROBO email to beare@mindspring.com, if you wish. From: ROBO (ROBO) Subject: Re: Shrug at top of deadlift movement Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 00:46:24 GMT After one too many stiff root beers akaplan@arches.uga.edu (Andrew Kaplan) belched the following : >Anyone ever use this technique, after doing a deadlift and pulling the bar >up, one could do a shoulder shrug to further stimulate the trapezius? >-- If you're deadlifting properly, your traps will get all the stimulus they need without the shrugs. The thought of holding those ungodly poundages and shrugging with them at the top is more than I can bear. Overhead presses, upright rows, bent (and especially T-Bar) rows and squats smoke the hell out of your traps as well. If traps are a problem, deadlifts are the answer. If you need additional trap work, set up a movable incline bench so that it is about 70 degrees above what a flat bench would be. Face the bench with heavy dumbells, and then lean forward onto the bench. The dumbells should hang straight down at an angle from your body. Shrug straight up, and try for 3 seconds to touch your shoulderblades together with your head forward. Do sets of about 12 reps, then go find a private corner and cry. Very tasty. Enjoy. ROBO email to beare@mindspring.com, if you wish. ----------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 05:49:14 -0700 From: RLansky@aol.com Subject: Shoulder Problems and the B-T-N Press and Lat Pulldown B-T-N In response to Greg Lawson's questions on Behind the Neck Shoulder Presses and Behind The Neck Pulldowns : These two exercises performed to a position behind the head can aggravate existing shoulder problems, especially with thos lifters already suffering from some sort of impingement problems. Tom Monroe's advice to do Presses and Pulldowns to the Front of the Body are right in line with the recommendations of our clinical and strength and conditioning staff at our clinic. Pulling or Pressing the barbell from behind the head places the scapular musculature in a less than optimal position for the development of maximum force and/or proper biomechanical motion. In addition, performing these exercises in front of the body is a more natural movement pattern in terms of real-life function. How many times a day do you find yourself pushing or pulling an object to or from this position? More often than not, when lifting an object overhead we are going to place it on a shelf in front of us, are we not? In reference to squatting, the front squat, hip bar or trap bar dead lift, a leaper/bear/hawk /Cat Squat Machine or Dumbbells held over your center of gravity are all viable alternatives to the back squat in terms of training the lower extremities. The Back Squat, with its position behind the head, much like the starting position of the BTN Military Press, is not the best shoulder positioning for those suffering from shoulder problems, past or present. ( List Readers don't know how much it really 'hurt' me to discourage the use of the back squat in this situation, considering my past competitive powerlifting background) Good luck with your training, and remember - there is no one essentail exercise - just those that will be specific to your goals while taking into account your past and present medical, orthopedic and physiological state of health, fitness and training experience. Richard C. Lansky, CSCS OP.T.I. Sports & Fitness Clinic Sarasota, Florida ------------------------------ From: TMccull230@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 11:23:59 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: (Weights-2) Lat development **NBAF WEIGHTS-2** In a message dated 6/13/97 3:52:53 AM, AJ wrote: >First off- Please explain why routines refer to lat "thickness" and "width" >exercises- If ya develope the Lat, wont the entire muscle be bigger??? > (Both width and thickness??) Are there exercises that target >lat width more than thickness??? I have to agree with on this one! As a muscle grows the fibers would get thicker and no doubt the muscle would also get wider. If someone needs more thickness, they need to train more and develop more muscle mass. If someone needs more width to their back, they might need to do more work on the lats. The lats usually provide extra width in the back. No many claim that heavy rows cause mass or thickness to the back and pulldown type exercise cause more width. Both use the lats. However, rows use extension of the shoulder joint. This means more muscles will be used per exercise (anterior deltoids, lower pecs, lats, teres major/minor, infraspinatus, and subscapularis). Thus, more total back mass. Pulldowns, which are used to develop width (lats) do not use the teres minor, infraspinatus, or subscapularis muscles. Usually more weight can be used with rows (ie. barbell) that with pulldowns (cable) because the machine limits the amount of weight you can add. >I enjoyed a pullover machine at my old gym but they dont got one at my new >one. Are DB or BB pullovers a good sub??? Are they a good lat developing >exercise?? If so- width or thickness?? Yep! I would say thickness (more muscles used). >Which is better for overall back development- T-Bar or BB rows (and which >grip placement- wide or narrow, overhand or underhand??) Geez, these are pretty tough questions! I think preference plays a big part here. I like BB rows myself. And most will tell you that a wide grip ( horizontal abduction) hit more lats and a narrow grip (extension) hits more teres major/minor, infraspinatus, and subscapularis. I haven't seen any EMG studies on this so I don't exactly to what extent this is true. However, using an underhand grip will allow the biceps to become more involved, thus being able to lift more weight. The overhand position puts the biceps in a disadvantaged position. Good Luck! Tom ****************************** From: ROBO (ROBO) Subject: Re: Military or behind the neck? Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:27:50 GMT After one too many stiff root beers Lou belched the following : > >Anyone know which is better for shoulder developement, presses in front of >or behind the neck? > >Lou. > BTN tends to work the medial head of the delts a bit more. Militaries are easier (much) on the rotator cuff, and are easier to perform safely. Many people have a lack of flexibility in their cuff and cannot perform BTN's without leaning their head forward. If you find yourself leaning your head forward while doing BTN, you need to work on shoulder flexibility, and probably avoid that exercise. I don't do them, and I do fine using militaries, db presses, and upright rows. ROBO email to beare@mindspring.com, if you wish. From stownsley*@apc.net Sat Jul 12 08:08:08 PDT 1997 garyt@pacific.net.sg (Gary Tan) wrote: >I have found shrugs to be quite effective when I was just starting out >during the first 2/3 months... nowadays I can't really feel the >tensity in my traps and I don't get the BURN or the soreness. I am >also hoping if someone can give any opinions on good TRAP exercises. Hold the contraction at the top of the movement. If you want to add some intensity you MIGHT try supersetting upright rows followed immeditely by shrugs. ALSO, make sure you are wrking thru a FULL reange of movement. IT's so easy to starrtlimiting your range as you get tired, but that stretch is, IMO, an important part of the exercise. -- Steve Townsley // stownsley@apc.net D/FW Assault Crew - West Coast Chapter, Orange County Branch From sde@golden.net Sat Jul 12 08:29:06 PDT 1997 On Tue, 08 Jul 1997 11:14:24 +0100, Roel wrote: >but you might consider seeing a physical therapist. And since your >shoulder already hurts, I would not aggrevate it by doing presse behind >the neck. It's been known to hurt your rotator-cuff because off the >stretch when the bar is behind your neck. I don't agree. The behind the neck press is a safe and effective exercise, but most people are stupid when it comes to the technique. Yes, the behind the neck position does put the shoulder capsule at an _interesting_ position. But also in this position, the anterior deltoids are maximally worked during the initial portion of the lift, while the medial delts assume the load for the middle part of the lift, with the triceps finishing off the lift. It's an outstanding exercise THANKS to the position you're in. But people are stupid, please and simple. They use excessive weight, let that shit come crashing down to their traps and are surprised when they sustain a shoulder injury. The shoulder capsule has so much forced pounded down on it that rotator cuff injuries are inevitable. The bench press, the BTN press - these are both safe exercises. Exercises don't injure, stupidity does. All exercises are potentially dangerous - it's the "idiot proof" factor that comes into play. If people are training explosively, rebounding off the negative, using excessive weights, letting inertia do most of the work - they DESERVE to get injured. Sandeep De The Power Factory - http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/4039/ From: bacos@juno.com (Caleb Bacon) Subject: Regarding Chins/Pullups Being Too Tough Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:35:59 -0400 As far as I'm concerned chins/pullups (call them what you will), with the overhand grip are a necessary lat movement. Pulldowns is much different because many people cheat more with momentum, especially on the last rep where they let the weight pull the bar back up for the last negative. Chins bring more motor units into effect making the movement more beneficial overall. If you cant handle your bodyweight for enough reps to make a difference heres some pointers: -Have a partner hold both ankles so you dont have as much bodyweight to work with but still get the benefits of the movements -Same as above but with one ankle -Hold onto the waist, or under armpits for forced reps after you fail on a couple -Believe it or not but negative strength affects positive strength in chins more than most other movements. Even if you cant do 5 bodyweight overhand grip chins you should still be able to do negative with your bodyweight for possibly 10 reps, or you even might want a dumbell between your legs or strapped on. Hope that helps anyone. Caleb Bacon bacos@juno.com http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/5735/bacon.htm From: derek allard Subject: Re: Increasing Pull-ups Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 13:31:13 -0400 (EDT) > I also have a question for any and everyone: How can I > increase the number of pull-ups I can do? I've been stuck for the > longest time. Would it be beneficial to use a gravitron and do multiple > sets of more reps? How about using a belt to attach weight and do fewer > reps per set? When I began chins I could only do...well, I won't embarass myself by telling everyone how many I could do. Point is, I began doing negative only chins until I could increase the positve reps. This has worked great for me. I recommend doing as many positive as possible (slow and strict) and after you can't pull yourself up any more, have a spotter lift you, or jump up, and do some *very* slow and *controlled* negatives. Hopefully your strength will improve enought to force out additional positives in a little while. Additionally, try increasing the time between your workouts to about 1 back workout and 1 bicep workout per week. Preferably on the same day so both body parts receive adequate recovery time. -Derek. From chuckman@ncinter.net Thu Jul 24 06:24:09 PDT 1997 RBeare wrote: > > "jlgc" said: > > >I have been reading alot about pullups lately. Do they really add as much > >mass as they are said to, or do they just work more with toning? Also what > >is a good exercise for adding mass to calf muscles? > > Thanx, > > Chris > chins/pullups will, when properly executed, help you a great deal with > developing strength and mass in your lats. Used in conjunction with bent rows, > you got yourself a good workout for your lats. If you want to do chins/pullups, > then get yourself a weight belt as well, you'll find your strength increasing > pretty quickly, and you'll want to add weight. Even me and my big fat ass isn't > enough weight for me on these, and there was a time, not all that long ago, that > I couldn't even pull my bodyweight. Where are all you skinny people coming from? I never need to put weight on for pullups and I ain't no weak dude. I carry alot of weight below my waist, but I never have had the need to add weight for these. I usually warm up with 4 sets of cable pull downs, then do three sets of chins, all to failure. I weigh 215 w/a 34" waist. And I get 10 reps my first set and 6-8 the next two. However I purposely do each rep with the inention of hitting the muscle in the fullest way, which is not how I would do ity if I were going for reps. I go completely stretch out and relaxed at the bottom so my arms are practically pulling out of my body. Then I raise up starting with the movement bringing the upper arm back into the body - does anyone know what I mean? Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 03:55:40 -0700 From: "Steve T." Subject: Behind the Neck Presses > > > What should i be aware of to ensure i don't injure myself? > > Behind the Neck Presses seem to be controversial: some think the're > good, others thnk they could injure the shoulder joint. I have the > following questions: > > 1) Should BTN Press be considered a specialized exercise? no, but it should be considered a risky exercise > 2) How should it be executed? very carefully (otherwise, about as you describe) > 3) Are there any (all) people who should completely avoid it? Yes, people who have pre-existing shoulder/rotator cuff injuries and anyone who does not wish to risk their shoulder joint health. > I know of some football programs using BTN press. These teams (in the > Big 12 and some Jr. Colleges) are known for power offenses. These teams > believe that to prevent on the field injuries the BTN Press conditions > the rear delt and middle portions of the traps, thus stabilizing the > shoulder against falls and hits when the elbows are bent, arms extended > and out to the side. > > The way they perform is with a shoulder width grip (or slightly > outside), lowering only to the base of the skull. Upon press, lock-out > is not required. 3 or 4 sets. This is then followed by sets of push > press to overload the all three delts heads with negatives. These are > done once each week, and follow a 3 month periodized schedule. > > I quoted a lot of the previous note because I wanted to repeat Steve's > comments. He comes down on the anti-BTN side. I wonder if he might > wish to comment on BTN press as a power mvt for football, shotput, etc., > since his first reply was to specific questions about bodybuilding. Are > there any opinionated pro-BTN folks around? I don't know that I'm so much anti-BTN Presses as I am very wary about them. Too often I see guys doing them with very poor form. Those individuals would more likely be better served by doing dumbell presses with their arms out to their sides (similar to how they'd be for a BTN press). There are a couple of benefits to doing this. One is that with DBs there's no need to crane the neck forward as so many people do - craning your neck puts your cervical spine an awkward position while subjecting the supporting musculature to heavy loads. Additionally that affects your overall body positioning to some degree as well which could affect your lifting posture and stability adversly. Seems like a bad idea to me. Another benefit is that it will cause more recruitment of the stabilizing muscles of the shoulder joint, promoting better joint stability. So, yeah, I guess you can say I'm not pro-BTN. Dumbell shoulder presses can accomplish exactly the same thing in terms of maximum possible recruitment of all three delt heads without the risk of locking the shoulder joints into a external rotation with a heavy barbell and the above mentioned benefits. In terms of power movements, I'd think for something like shotput, which is a one-arm movement, dumbells would be a clearly superior choice. For football, since you're arms aren't 'locked' onto a bar, rather they'd be pushing into another body that's going to shift, it seems the training of limbs independently would be more useful. I used to do BTN presses a lot, but have switched to heavy DB presses along with seated and standing military presses and push presses that I've been doing for some time. I can press 100 lb DBs with arms out to the side and don't feel nearly apprehemsive about doing those versus attempting a heavy BTN press (which wouldn't even equal the weight of what I use with DBs). Bottom line is: why put your shoulder joints at risk if you don't have to? -- Steve Townsley ~ stownsley@apc.net ~ http://www.apc.net/stownsley/healthzone.html Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:38:40 -0500 From: "Jeffrey A. Schiffel" Subject: BTN Press > I orignially wrote: > >The way they perform (behind the neck presses) is with a shoulder width grip (or slightly > >outside), lowering only to the base of the skull. Upon press, lock-out > >is not required. (rest of description snipped) Steve Townley brings up the point regarding stress on the cervical spine because of craning the head forward. He's right, of course. I should add this to the description of the method: The head is erect, eyes straight ahead, when the weight is overhead. When the bar is lowered, the head moves just forward enough with a downward gaze to allow the bar to clear the back of the skull. BTN should prabably be performed as a seated press, not a standing press, to eliminate body swaying forward and back since the spine is moving during the movement. Steve makes comments on the relative safety of the movement due to poor form. I too have observed too many people doing a BTN press with poor form, usually in terms of wide grip spacing and with elbows too far forward. Mike Trupiano asked about a push press. I do push presses as a cheated standing military press. Starting with the bar on the chest in the clean position, the knees bend and pop (i.e., jerk) the bar overhead. Then it is slowly lowered back to the starting position. The goal is for negatives overloading the delts. The weight used is 120 to 130 percent of the normal military press weight. Other comments on form or benefits welcome. Thanks again to Steve for his comments on the alternatives to BTN pressing by using dumbells as a better alternative to train all three heads of the deltoids. My experience, by the way, is that for a bad shoulder, grasping a straight bar keeps the hands from moving out of position. With dumbells a lot of attention has to be paid to keeping the hand on the side of a bad rotator from floating out and away from the desired path. Even with dbs there is a potential stability problem. We all are interested in the most time-efficient trianing methods. And as Steve states: > Bottom line is: why put your shoulder joints at risk if you don't have to? -- Jeff Subject: Re: Chin-up problems From: Charles.I.Staley@west.net, B.Sc.@west.net, MSS Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:24:25 -0800 >Subject: Re: Chins >From: Lorne Goldenberg >Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:47:53 -0800 > >> From: K Hildrum >> Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:08:37 -0800 >> >> I'm 22 and female. I'd like to be able to do chinups eventually, >> but I'd like to have a realistic time frame. I use an assisted chinup >> machine, and now I can lift about 70 lbs of my 170 pounds of body weight >> (yes, I know I have excess fat). What sort of gains are reasonable in >> what time? >> >> By the way, right now I do a spilt routine with 3 sets of 8-12, >> to failure on the last set. On arms days, I do (all on machines): >> >> chest press >> inclined chest press >> shoulder press >> assisted dips >> assisted chinups >> row > >Your biggest mistake with regard to using the assisted chin dip is that >the recruitment pattern necessary for a chin up with your body weight is >considerably different from that of your machine. You do not do chins >on a couple of guide rods. Try doing some eccentric only chins on a >5-10 second tempo, eventually you may be able to do a full chin. As you >stated you need to loose that excess fat, you may want to concentrate on >that first. > >Your second mistake is the use of all those machines. Try free weights >your gains will surely improve. God did not create our bodies on 2 >guide rods, if you train that way exclusively you will develop movement >pattern dysfunctions that will hinder the way you move everyday. > >Lorne Goldenberg >www.strengthtek.com Lorne is dead-on. I just wanted to pass on another idea that I've used successfully with people. In a power rack, tie some surgical tubing to the supports so that during chins, your knees rest on the tubing. It's like a poor-man's Gravitron, but better, because you're avoiding the problems Lorne was alluding to. Initially, tie the tubing high so it gives you a lot of assistance. As you get stronger, start to tie it lower. You can also use this method in conjunction with Lorne's suggestion. [Surgical tubing in a power rack. Genius! My 245 lb. body's soon-to-be new exercise routine thanks you. -MTS] ubject: Re: lats, delts From: Sandeep De Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 08:42:07 -0800 > Subject: lats, delts? > From: cookie@shore.intercom.net > > What's the best thing for overall lat development? I've been doing > bent-over rows, T-bar rows, and pulldowns, but they don't seem to be doing > much. My upper lats are noticeable, but that's it. Is it as simple as > adding pull-ups? > > Same question for side delts. I'm doing military presses, Arnold presses, > and lateral raises - but they're never even sore. My fronts get sore as > hell when they're worked though. I used to have the same problem - now my side delts are one of my best bodyparts and my lats have improved considerably. I'd strongly reccomend narrow overhand grip chins. At first, I didn't really feel anything with this exercise, but with some fine tuning they never fail to produce results. Firstly, pay attention to tempo. It's not just enough to go up and down. I've found that a 3-1-4-1 cadence is very productive - that means to raise yourself in 3 seconds, hold the top contracted position for a second, lower in four seconds and pause for a second at the bottom. This places a great deal of tension on the muscle and removes any kind of accelerative influence. Secondly, make sure that you go through a full range of motion. Most people limit themselves to only the top range of motion for the chin; where they are the strongest. Going down to the point where your lats are fully stretched out is a must (in my humble opinion). The method of execution is also important. I find that the exercise is productive enough if you just aim to "get your chin over the bar" i.e. move your body vertically through space. But if you add a bit of a row at the top of the movement, you get a stronger contraction in the muscles of the midback. I know this sounds a little strange but follow me on this one. As you approach the top, attempt to bring yourself close enough to the bar and backwards somewhat. From the side, it looks like this ./ . Your upper body is leaning backwards a little, as if you were "rowing" at the top of the movement. I've found that this adds another dimension of difficult to the movement. Also, once you have mastered your body weight AT A SLOW tempo, try adding resistance. Chins are the number #1 back exercise you can do; imho. Sandeep De The Power Factory - http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/4039/ From sde@golden.net Wed Dec 31 11:51:39 PST 1997 On Tue, 30 Dec 1997 02:17:41 GMT, trilenol@nospam.inlink.com wrote: >I was making up a routine I'm planning on doing for the next four >weeks for the following muscles. > Biceps, abs, lats, and erectus spinues (thats not spelled right). Erector Spinae - lower mid back muscles >I plan on doing drop sets for these lifts. Drop sets suck >Anyways heres what I got so far > >Standing Barbbell Curl (biceps) >pullups ( biceps and lats ) >lat pulldown ( biceps and lats) BAH! Wrong order. >just how much does the lat pulldown depend on the biceps, becuase I'm >thinking about adding another exercise for my biceps Also what would >be a good lift that just hit my lats only. Here's what I would suggest. 1. Narrow Grip Overhand Chin Ups 3 x Maximum @ 2-1-4-1 tempo (raise in two seconds, hold contraction, lower in 4 seconds, stretch fully for one second) 2. Dumbbell Rows 2 x 8 @ 2-2-3-1 3. Incline Dumbbell Curls 3 x 8 @ 2-1-3-1 Erector Spinae will get smoked if you squat or deadlift. Pointers on the technique. I'm just cutting and pasting from an article that I am writing up at present to put up on my site, so don't think that I expended all this energy just for you I love training back now. Of all bodyparts, I think that learning how to properly train your back is the hardest to do. You have to have certain techniques down pat before you really start frying your back. The nice thing is that it responds like crazy. You don't need any foo-foo movements (As Robo is found of saying) to built a bomb proof back. Dumbbell Rows and Chinups might seem as basic as you can get - but fine tune the technique you use and these primitive exercises can build quite the advanced back. I strongly believe that you need both these movements in your attack. I used to be a fan of plain chinups as the only upper back exercise in a program - and for good reason. They're outstanding. However, I have learned that they don't really involve the muscle of the midback and lower lats to the same extent. The old adage "Chins for width, rows for thickness" can be expanded. Chins develop the teres major, the upper portion of the lats and give your upper back width and thickness. Rows develop the smaller muscles of the midback, the rhomboids and the lower lats to give you thickness and a wider shape from the bottom. Put them together and you have a complete and destructive back attack. But these movements have to be fine tuned to get the effects I'm talking about. My back used to be one of my weak points; but through these exercises it has improved tremendously. I never thought I had good back genetics but now I have got a sweep that starts from my waist and thickness all across my back. By the way, lifting chalk - not wrist straps - are a must during all back movements. A $5 bag of chalk will probably last you around 5 years. Magnesium Carbonate (MgCO3) can be found at any outdoor store that specializes in climbing equipment. Get chalk that is contained in a breathable baggie; there is a lot less wasted than if you buy a block of chalk instead. Weighted Chin Ups 1. Start with a slightly wider (2-3 inches) that shoulder width grip on the bar. 2. Use an overhand grip. In an underhand grip, the biceps have an more effective line of pull and hence are more active in the exercise. By using an overhand grip, their mechanical advantage is minimized and hence more stress is transferred to the back. 3. Do NOT use straps. Over time, your grip strength will improve. I used to use straps exclusively. When I switched, I initially found that I would have to stop a set early because I was losing my grip. This is not the case anymore - my grip never fails before the muscles I am working do. 4. In the bottom position, make sure that you are stretched out completely. Most people limit the effectiveness of this great exercise by only moving through their strongest range of motion. The greater the stretch, the more motor units you involve. It wasn't until I started moving my back through it's full range of motion that my back really started to develop. 5. Keep your knees bent throughout the exercise. 6. Think about pulling your elbows downwards as you begin the ascent. 7. As you approach the bar, don't just think of getting your chin over it. Think about touching the bar to your lower chest. What this does is add a new dimension to the exercise. Not only are the lats being worked in a vertical plane but also in a horizontal one as well. If you think about it, you are getting both a chin and row type movement in one shot. Furthermore, thinking about touching your chest to the bar helps limit the involvement of your biceps and shifts the stress to your back. 8. At the top, make sure that you try to contract your elbows backwards and together. You won't be able to do this but it sets up a lot of things. Firstly, this encourages you to arch your back. This increases the involvement of the upper back. Secondly, it teaches you to learn how to contract your back muscles, and over time, this skill is critical to getting an effective back workout. Hold the contraction at the top for atleast a second. 9. Lower yourself in a slow tempo and make sure that you go through your full range motion, stretching completely at the bottom. Pause for a second at the bottom to remove any plyometric effect and to maximize the demand on the lats. 10. If you cannot perform a chinup by yourself, you will eventually. Bring a bench underneath the bar. Now step up on it and assume the top position of the chinup. Since you are stronger during the eccentric (lowering) portion of the rep than you are during the concentric, lower yourself slowly - 8 seconds is a good time. Step up on the bench and do another rep. Keep going until you cannot lower yourself under control anymore. Within 2-3 weeks your strength will increase so much that you can perform complete repetitions. Be careful not to do much more back work than this - negatives are VERY demanding and will require a great deal of recovery time. 11. Once you can perform 10-12 repetitions at a slow (i.e. 3-1-4-1) tempo, add resistance. Most gyms will have a dip belt from which weights (plates or dumbbells) can be suspended. If you do not have one, there is a simple way to make one. Go to your local hardware store and get a sufficient length of chain with a loop on one end and a spring loaded hook on the other. Simply thread this chain through your weight belt and suspend the weights through the chain. Dumbbell rows are a great exercise once you learn how to do them right. If you're doing them wrong - as I used to when I gave up on them - you'll feel your biceps more in the movement. If you do them right, they fry your lower lats and mid back muscles. It took me a LONG time to perfect this technique but it was worth it. 1. Start with a light weight! This is critical! Learning how to maximize back involvement is perhaps the most difficult skill in weightlifting (aside >from complex ballistic lifts, of course). This is not an ego contest! To fully get your back involved you must learn how to focus and that cannot occur with heavy weights. As a general rule, if you cannot raise the weight in 2-3 seconds and cannot hold the contraction for 2 seconds - the weight is too heavy. Also, if the weight is too heavy you will often feel the movement more in your biceps than in your back. The exercise MUST be smooth and controlled during the concentric portion - the effects are greatly lessened when your rows resemble a pro wrestler starting a lawnmower! 2. Find a flat bench. Roll the dumbbell to the side that you will be working first. 3. Do NOT place a knee up on the bench! When you do this, people have a tendency to rotate their bodies upwards when lifting their weights. Consequently their obliques get a better workout than their back! Instead, straddle the bench with your legs on either side. 4. Place your non working arm at the top of the bench. Lock it out. 5. Arch your back a lot. Stick your chest way out. 6. Get the dumbbell from the ground, but make sure that you retain that arch. What will happen is that your working side will stretch out a great deal, while the non working side maintains the arch in your back. 7. Your palm should be faced you throughout the movement. 8. SLOWLY raise the dumbbell. The faster you raise it the less stress there is on the back. I don't think that the weights should be raised any faster than 2 seconds. 3 seconds is great. 9. As you approach the top, think of sticking the end of the dumbbell into your hip. Now hold it there and contract your back muscles HARD for at least 2 seconds. If you can't do this, the weight is too heavy. When you do this, you should feel a very strong contraction in the lower part of the lat and in the rhomboids of the mid back. Push your chest outwards as you contract. Think about squeezing your shoulder bladesether. Move your elbows back as far as possible. This step is vital! 10. Lower the dumbbell slowly but MAKE SURE TO STRETCH OUT ALL THE WAY! Go through the full range of motion, allow your back to completely stretch out in the bottom. If you are properly maintaining that arch in your lower back, this WILL happen! You will feel your rhomboids pull apart and your lats stretch right from the bottom. 11. Take at least 3 seconds on the negative and pause for a second in the stretched position. >I'm also having problems finding a good lift to get my erectus spinues >(again I know thats not spelled right) could anyone suggest any? Deadlifts. Article on my site on technique in Advanced Training section. ---------- Sandeep De The Power Factory - http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/4039/