Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 20:45:25 -0500 From: Tom McCullough Subject: Which Deadlift Stance Is Best? ------------------------------------------- Here are some interesting studies done on the deadlift. Cholewicki et al. (1991) reported in a recent study comparing the sumo and conventional styles that there were no significant differences in compressive disc forces at the L4 or L5 vertebrae. However the conventional deadlift showed significantly more movement and load shear forces in the L4/L5 that the sumo. So as we all pretty much are already aware, the sumo deadlift takes much of the strain and movement from the low back. To further back this statement, Horn (1988) found through an EMG study that the erectors were twice as active in the conventional stance as the sumo. There are many anecdotal reports as well that claim the sumo deadlift is much more technical and requires more skill. Many also say this technique is more biomechanically sound and more efficient because the bar does not have to travel as far. How true are these anecdotal reports? To investigate some of these claims McGuinan and Wilson (1996) recently did some extensive biomechanical analysis of the sumo and conventional style deadlift. The following is a summary of what they found: The liftoff - The sumo has a trunk angle that is significantly closer to vertical that conventional lifters. Sumo lifters were also found to have much larger hip and knee angles at the start of the lift. This style shifts the bulk of the load on the hips and knees. While the conventional lifter with a more stooped-over trunk position at liftoff utilizes more low back muscles to get the weight moving off the floor. The distance the bar must travel: As reported in other studies, this study also found work is defined by taking the amount of force or weight and multiplying it by the distance the bar must travel. So by reducing the distance by 19%, the sumo lifter has automatically reduced the amount of work necessary to lift a given amount of weight. Bar path: Grabiner and Garhammer (1989) noted that the most of the most important factors to be considered in lifting weights is to keep the weight as close to the body as possible. This reduces the lever arm distance, thus significantly reducing the resistive torque. Cholewicki et al. (1991) found that using the sumo stance not only kept the bar closer to the body than the conventional stance but it also reduced the lever arm distance by shortening the movement of the lumbar. McGuinan and Wilson (1996) similarily found that the sumo lift kept the bar path significantly closer to the body that of the conventional stance. Lift time: Power is defined as total work divided by time. So the actual amount of power it takes to lift the weight is highly dependent on the amount of time it takes to lift the weight. However, McGuinan and Wilson (1996) determined that both the sumo and conventional stance required an average of 2.0 seconds to complete. Thus, there is no difference in the amount of power produced by either lift. Sticking points: It was found half of the sumo lifters had a sticking point somewhere in the second half of the lift where only 15% of the conventional style lifters got stuck here. However, there seemed to be no exact point in common between the lifters. McLaughlin et al. (1977) claims that these sticking points are actually caused at the point where the most effective muscles in the deadlift are in a disadvantaged position. Because we are all built slightly different, this point could vary from lifter to lifter. This exact position can be determined with a Peak motion analysis. Horn (1988) determined that a kinetic analysis using an EMG study of the ankle, hip, and low back in conjunction with strength testing could also accurately determine which muscle group would limit performance during the deadlift. Then proper assistance work could be used to lessen these sticking points. This study did seem to indicate that there were several biomechanical advantages in using the sumo over the conventional style of deadlift. 1. Greater range of knee extension at the bottom of the lift. 2. A more upright posture. 3. The distance the weight must be moved is greatly reduced. 4. The bar path is kept closer to the body, thus making the levers more efficient. --complete references available on request-- Tom McCullough MEd., MSS Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:41:00 -0600 From: DANIELS Douglas Subject: BEST DEADLIFT TECHNIQUE ------------------------------------------- I agree that technically, the sumo style is preferable, however I feel that sumo lifters are born not made. I tried converting and gave it several months and lost 100 pounds over conventional. I just could not get comfortable or efficient in sumo style. However several adjustments can made to many lifter's styles that can help. Number one keep the bar close to the body. Ed Coan once told me to concentrate on pulling into the body as well as up. While judging local meets I notice many sumo'ers displaying several flaws. They start too far away from the bar. You can actually see the bar come into the body as they start their pull, wasting their initial pull. Also their legs straighten noticably while the bar remains on the floor. again a waste of initial pull. I got to watch Bob Bridges deadlift. It was incredible how efficient and smooth it was. As soon as he started the pull, the bar went straight up. His technique and that of his famous brother , MIke, added greatly to their lifting success. I wouldn't force anyone to lift sumo just because it was best or he looked like a sumo guy. I put together a deadlift primer for PLUSA recently that starts from square 1 . Most if not all articles assume some knowledge on a lift. In it I try to cover the benefits and techniques required for both styles. As far as belts for benching, Confessore uses it to keep his shirt on tight to prevent slippage. He uses no arch due to his bodyweight. Outside of that I see no advantage to using one. Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:05:56 -0800 From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: BEST DEADLIFT TECHNIQUE DANIELS Douglas wrote: > > I agree that technically, the sumo style is preferable, however I feel > that sumo lifters are born not made. I tried converting and gave it > several months and lost 100 pounds over conventional. I just could not > get comfortable or efficient in sumo style. >[snip] True. My buddy Mike tried to convert to sumo and never could get it right. He is a mid 600 puller conventional but with a sumo he could barely move 550 for reps. It just didn't feel "right". Oddly enough, he is the one who taught me to sumo. I could conventional DL okay but I just hated it. He showed me how to sumo and the first time I tried it my body found a groove. I think you have to dl based on your build, however, during out of meet training, training your weak lift could be beneficial. -- Jason Burnell - http://www.earthlink.net/~deepsquatter/ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:59:59 -0800 From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: Which Deadlift Stance Is Best? ------------------------------------------- Tom McCullough wrote: > [snip] Tom, This is great stuff. I think it must also be noted that once you train the sumo you MUST perfect you positioning and technique. I know that if I descend in an upright position and force my butt back and my knees out, I will generally be in position to push my heels down and out at the start. If I deviate from proper positioning (for me) I will end up doing a wide stance stiff leg. Also since sumoers tend to get stuck at lockout and conventional dlers usually stick below knees - usually if they come off the floor it goes up- would it be beneficial to train both types. Ed Coan said in his tapes that he trains conv. until several weeks out and then mixes them up for a few weeks and then trains sumo only the last few weeks. (I know, he's been doing conv. the last year or so due to injury) -- Jason Burnell - http://www.earthlink.net/~deepsquatter/ Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 20:25:17 EST From: Namgawd Subject: Deadlift science I've been following the thread on pulls relatively closely. It sure seems that everybody has an opinion on sumo vs conventional and straight back vs round back. Unfortunately, with the exception of Lyle, I've seen very little opinion based on science. Therefore, I decided to put down some salient points regarding what research has ascertained. This is not my opinion, rather fact. 1. Experienced lifters exert maximal force at 50% of max lift height, the control group at 67%. The glutes came in to play at an earlier point for the experienced lifters over the control, likely to contribute to greater force development, hip stabilization, and erector function. Throughout the lift, in the experienced lifters, the quads became more and more involved the closer to completion the lift got. (conventional) 2. In a conventional deadlift, lumbar (low back) ligaments don't get overly strained in an attempt to keep the back straight. As the back remains straight, the muscles do the work. 3. Skilled lifters maintain a significantly more upright position at lift-off over less skilled lifters. Less skilled lifters showed greater variability in acceleration parameters of the bar, skilled lifters were more consistent. (conventional) 4. The sumo style results in 10% less joint movemet (lower back) and 8% less shear force on the L-4 & L-5 lumbars compared to the conventional style. However, a great degree of variability in the subjects existed, not allowing for definitive conclusions as to how this data can be generalized accross other lifters. (conventional) 5. Range of motion for the sumo vs conventional pull accross all joints involved is greater for the conv. style, though not significantly so. In both styles, knee extension was dominant over hip extension on lift off. Conventional style relies more on the back musculature to complete the lift over the sumo style. The bar travelled a significantly longer distance in the conv. vs sumo style and thus the sumo lifters worked less to complete the lift. Somo style allows the bar to travel closer to the body than the conv. lift. Lift time was the same for both styles. The sticking point for the sumo is in the second half of the lift, in the first half for the conv. 6. The strength of the spine lies in its natural curvature. Whenever the natural curvature is compromised, so is the strength of the spine. Bringing the vertebrae out of their natural alignment can increase shear forces 9-fold. My opinions: Rounding off your back is about the absolute worst thing you can do. Period. Doing so with a load in your hands is like playing Russian roulette. Both styles of lifting offer advantages over the other, though the differences seem unimportant. It seems to me that the conv. style is more a test of strength over the sumo because it requires greater back strength and more work. At the same token, if your back strength is superior to your quad/hip strength, you'd be better off with a conventional style. If your back is weak, in comparison, try the sumo. This also holds true for developing back strength. Purely from a powerlifting perspective, the sumo seems superior in terms of leverages and biomechanics. However, in terms of building functional strength, conventional is the way to go. Now, from my perspective, there isn't one way that's better over another if you're looking at lifting max weight. You need to consider your own leverages and strengths and base your decision on that. If you look at the IPF world records, it's about 50/50 for style. And on a personal note, I'm just not impressed with guys who pull a lot sumo. Though they demonstrate a smart approach because of reduced bar travel, it's simply easier and less a demonstration of pure strength. Dan Wagman Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 22:10:16 -0500 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: deadlift > Which style (sumo or conventional) is favored on this list? I myself > have always done conventional though I can do considerably more via > sumo. Can anyone lay out the pro's and cons of each? Okay, I have been pretty busy all day and I really wanted to reply to this thread. Some good conversation all the way around IMO. I'll take a stab at pro's and con's of each and interject a few thoughts as well. Conventional: 1) Easier to learn. 2) More "grunt" oriented than sumo. 3) Longer ROM for the torso to move in...exposes the lower back to longer time under tension and increases the chance of disc injury (not saying you will injure your discs but, the longer they are exposed the more likely you can incur such an injury). 4) Fast start, slow finish (generally). 5) Easier to get a double knee bend or hitch going if really struggling. 6) See the "shakes" more with conventional lifts. 7) Most of the top pulls of all time have been done conventional. Sumo: 1) More technical. If things get out of whack early it is much less forgiving to finish the lift. 2) SLOW off the floor...patience is a must. 3) Requires a lot of "grunt" but, it needs to be a little more directed IMO. 4) Shorter torso ROM, allows a more upright position. 5) Will take some time to get your hip girdle up to snuff for the start. 6) Less forgiving in the start if you are not "tight" in the mid-section. Conventional will give you some leeway since you can achieve some semblence of support in your midsection as your belly contacts your thighs. 7) Must have a good start position or you are doomed from the get go. 8) Must raise hips and shoulders at the same rate up to about knee level or will get a slump, IMO is harder to recover from rounded back than the conventionals are. 9) Less forgiving if your shoulders start forward of the bar...IMO you will round harder in sumo because your hips/glutes drive your hips up and this will acentuate the slump. I think this is related to the contact that usually occurs between the torso and upper legs of the conventional. When you start conventional then your upper legs almost lift your torso up too at the start so you get a little momentum going and if you are forward then it isn't as noticeable since your torso has the 'assist' in the first half of the pull. Sumo requires you to achieve max tension in your midsection right from the start. If you aren't then your hips shoot (which generally are strong from pulling sumo) and this will exaggerate the difference in the rate that your shoulders rise with the rate that your hips do. I wouldn't attempt to say one is better than the other but, I think conventional is much easier to just lift and get the heavier weight up quicker. Sumo will take a little longer but, I also think that it is less abusive on your lumbar. I think if you pull sumo you should include some form of conventional or SLDL to keep your lumbar strong though...if you get messed up then you want to make sure that your erectors are nice and strong to handle those "off groove" pulls that tend to happen. I don't mean to imply that sumo won't make your back strong...far from it. However, the time under tension is much less for the sumo and it tends to be a real strong burst at the start then it fades out quick. With conventional it is moderate at the start and graduates to real strong at the end. I think sumo pullers should include some strength-endurance type work for their erectors to keep that slight difference up to par with the conventional pullers...it is always nice to have a slight cushion when it comes to erector strength. For those with a long torso, longish arms, and long legs I am inclined to say that sumo offers more oppurtunity for big pulls. That is just opinion so please don't flame me for it. I just tend to believe that the hip/glute/hams are a much stronger mover than the erectors and hams. Given that you can maintain stabilization in your torso and grip, then you should be able to pull more weight off the floor while relying on primarily the hip/glute/ham combo than just the hams and erectors. The long arms and short torso help to keep the body in a good orientation...i.e. upright torso to minimize sheer force and allow compression along the entire spine, this also minimizes torso movement which gets dangerous under maximal loading. Long legs allow a higher hip start which generally equates to more power (muslces are moving through a shorter range of motion). The other aspect of sumo that I think is really important is the ability to be explosive. Sumo is much more contingent on how hard you flex all the relevant muslces right from the start. Specifically the abdominals and mid-section stabilizers. If these don't fire maximally right from the start then you round as the bar comes off the floor and your legs lock too soon. This puts the bar in front of the lifter and exposes you to a lot of sheer at the top, plus the ROM of your torso is now longer and with your legs spread I think you lose some assistance from the hips in finishing like you would with a conventional. The start has to be fast yet controlled, you have to get everything firing but, you cannot yank the bar or the above scenario tends to play out (especially heavy). I think of it like a quick shot to load up, then a slow application of pressure until the bar breaks and hits the knees, then it is drive the hips forward and the shoulders back as fast and hard as I can. Okay, I am getting tangental here (SORRY!). Just lots of things about deads that I think get neglected. I agree it is more of grunt lift but, it is highly technical and after a point you just won't pull anymore unless you understand the dynamics of it (same with all the lifts IMO). Once the timing is down it is much easier to just grunt but, until your body has learned that timing I think both variations are tough to get down pat. As far as doing both in a routine? Wes and I had good luck using conventionals as an assistance on ME days when we used WSB. We would do our ME work then go straight to conventional pulls for 3x5 of a moderately heavy weight. I currently am using SLDL's on my heavy day (Monday) whether I am squatting or DL'ing. This has been sufficient so far for me. I think a possible scenario would be to do them (DL's in the opposite style) on your speed squat day after the boxes. Then the following week do speed DL's (in your contest form) with speed squats done following. Adjust the sets/reps of the second motion down somewhat (since it isn't the primary motion) but, it is still a lot of volume and practice in the lifts. If you follow a regular type of periodization then maybe alternate your heavy pulls to every other week. This way on the in-between weeks you could do some light pulls with the opposite style for the earlier stages of the peak. Plus, I think heavy DL's and SQ's in the same week is pretty tough to recover from (JMO though). Before I ramble anymore...gotta' go kiss the munchkin' good night. Hope this isn't too off the wall to follow. Good liftin' __________ - -wade of BORG "Send assimilation questions to..." silverback@psn.net Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 22:20:02 -0500 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: deadlift > All of the top deadlifts have been done conventional style. > It may be a little harder to master and require a little more work, you > actually have to deadlift every week, but you will move more weight once > you have it down. > Tom Stevenson Tom, I disagree. I think in the long run sumo offers more potential for bigger pulls (more wide stance squatters have gone over 1000 than narrow). The hips/glutes/hams are a stronger cluster than the hams and erectors. Plus, the longer ROM of the torso in the conventional opens the lifter up for greater injury if things get off center. I think the reason you see most of the bigger pulls in conventional is that more people tend to pull conventional. I would almost guarantee that if Eddy Coan were still pulling sumo he would hold the all time DL record right now...by a more than a few pounds too. In addition, if OD Wilson and Dave Passenella hadn't died so young both would have made a VERY strong run at, or above 900 on DL's. There are quite a few 800+ pullers currently who use sumo and more are cropping up all the time. Finally, the hips et. al. tend to take more abuse than the erectors will. Pulling every week in conventional is a LOT of work on your erectors. Some can do it but, that is not the only way to get a big pull IMO. Just my .02 __________ - -wade of BORG Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:03:58 -0600 (CST) From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: Brookman's Power Page Jim wrote, >On Mike Brookman's Power Page there are several pics. One is of Keith >Hobman doing his second dl on a meet. He appears to be doing it sumo. >The next pic is of him doing his final attempt and it appears to be done >conventional. > >Is this the norm for him? I have never seen anything like this! I started out pulling conventional only. In my first meet about 3 years ago all my pulls were raw and conventional. I started to explore the sumo because it stresses the spinal column less and I was training my daughter, who was quite young. She uses only the sumo in competition. I also noticed when I went heavy (for me anyhow, when I get near 600) in the deadlift I could feel my back rounding and the stress is felt in the spinal column. When I tore by bicep tendon I basically had to start from scratch in the deadlift anyhow and I began to take injuries a little more seriously. I decided to lift sumo. Initially my weights in the sumo were a little lower. I pulled 563 easily in my first meet and in my second meet twice got 585 to my knees on a bad day. On my first meet back after the injury I could only get 540 to go with the sumo. On my next meet where the pics are from I did a second of 568 sumo, but twinged the hip, so I did a third of 580 conventional. Interesting that this was my first conventional pull since ripping the bicep tendon off over a year earlier. Since then I have done three more meets and I go by feel. If my sumo is feeling good I stick with it. If I feel my technique is poor I switch to conventional with no qualms. At the Edmonton open meet I tore my palm on my second sumo attempt, so I switched my hands and went conventional on the third. At the Winnipeg meet my neck was bothering me so much I just went conventional to avoid getting into a suit. I don't feel there is much difference in my strength in the two lifts. I can break more off the floor in the conventional, but it is a more dangerous lift for me. In the sumo I'm not as strong off the floor, but my lockout is much better. I anticipate using the sumo more in meets to come if the Inzer suit works as well as they say. However, I still train both lifts and switch back and forth between them in my training. I know some people who feel that you know right away if sumo is for you. I disagree. People who are relatively strong in the hips will feel comfortable right away with the sumo, IMO. The rest of us have to get the hip strength up to make the sumo feel right and that can take time. But with time I think most people can do an effective sumo lift. I feel the people who say 'I tried it, but it didn't works as well...' went by the initial feel and couldn't do as much and then gave up on it. It just requires strength in different places, thats all. Keith Hobman Saskatoon, Mant.