Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 06:58:54 -0500 From: Lynne Pitts Subject: Strength_List: Request for Info Hi gang, I'm getting ready for a meet after 2 years of no competing. A few months ago there was some discussion about a beeper that you wear on your leg, to signal breaking parallel. I'll be doing most of my training with no spotter, so this sounds like just the ticket. Does anyone still have the info on where to get this goodie? Thanks, Lynne Pitts mm@top.monad.net Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:48:18 EST From: LUV2BSTOUT@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: Request for Info You can find the beeper through Bigger Faster Stronger in Salt Lake City Utah! I own one of them and they work fairly well! They operate off of a Mercury Switch! Caution must be taken to place the beeper at the proper spot on your leg (this varies from person to person in order to get it to beep at the proper height or depth. I think they run 29.95. The number for Bigger Faster, Stronger is 1-800-628-9737. Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 16:39:04 CST From: Jason F Keen Subject: Strength_List: parallel beeper Lynne- If you don't want to pay 30$, or you want something to use in the meantime, you can always use a box or milk crate that is the right height, and if you don't want to do box squats just 'touch' it. Better yet, if you have some elastic bungee cords lying in your trunk just stretch one from hole to hole in the rack or safety bar to safety bar at the right height. I have tried this, and the bungee cord just kind of 'gooses' you as opposed to actually running into something like a box or milk crate. Jason F Keen, NSCA-Certified Personal Trainer jkeen@iastate.edu Styoung wrote in message <19990103213913.01158.00006720@ng-cc1.aol.com>... >In an effort to make sure I'm not doing anything wrong myself, to avoid injury >and get the most out of my workout, can you guys state the most common mistakes >in form you see people making in the gym? I'll start it off, it seems like 3 >out of 5 people I see doing squats lock their knees when they rise each time. I >also see alot of people still locking their fingers behind their head in situps >(bad for your neck). Feel free to add... Ignoring my previous dictum of not offering any more advice, I just couldn't help myself when I saw this poor kid struggling under a squat bar. He was trying to put up more weight than he could handle with insufficient depth (and it didn't help that his 6-inch-rep-squattin' buddy kept egging him on saying, "You can do more weight than that!" [buddy was doing 225 by unracking the bar, dipping down just barely and standing up again... hell even I could do that]), and had an uncontrolled negative. So he would hurtle downward under the weight of the bar, and of course get stuck. I restrained myself till the third set then I just walked over and explained how he could control the negative, and encouraged him to get humble in the face of Sq'whaht, favouring depth over weight. Surprisingly he actually took my advice, or seemed receptive to it. Wonders never cease. So, the point of my rambling is that one of the main mistakes in bad squatting is not controlling the descent. Another is not going deep enough and concomitantly trying to use too much weight. Other form mistakes: 1. Keeping knees straight and locked on SL deads, and rounding the back to compensate 2. Bouncing bench press bar off sternum 3. Swinging bicep curls 4. Twisting db rows 5. Flailing lateral raises 6. Caving knees inward on squats 7. Seated cable rows where the speed of the retreating handle threatens to rip the humerus from its socket as the upper body lurches forward A lot of these mistakes can be avoided by just slowing down the tempo. Krista ---------------------- krust@interlog.com Date: 14 Jan 1999 11:15:16 EDT From: JTARTER@shallowater.esc17.net Subject: Re: Strength_List: Box squat question.... You can get a lot of information on the box squat though Bigger, Faster, stronger out of Salt Lake City (1-800-628-9737). The single most important thing to do in the box squat is to be careful how you sit down. Do not "plop" down but rather sit lightly keeping your chest spread and back locked. You are right trying to explode upwards and you should try to make it more of a ballistic type of lift. Constantly monitor your feet and knees in the lift. You are overloading yourself if your knees pinch in or if your feet turn pigeon toe! Also, I highly recommend getting a padded box (it is much more comfortable). Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:47:34 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: Falling Forward in Squat Chris wrote, >Ok, please don't laugh at these poundages, but I need some help. > >I am using a simple periodized routine. Last week I got 2 sets of six with >280 lbs in the squat, no suit, no wraps, just a belt. The weight felt good, >and I was very deep on my squats. My foot placement is a little wider than >shoulder width, and my knees were rock solid. After squats, I did two sets >of 8 Good Mornings with 155, and two sets of wide stnace leg presses to >strengthen my adductors and Abductors in the hole. I finished off with abs >and reverse hypers. > >This morning, I was scripted to do 2 sets of five with 300. A small jump, >and I felt strong last week. But, on my third rep in the first set, I felt >myself falling forward, and had to work extra hard to drive my shoulders >backward. On the fourth rep, I lost my groove completely, and the weight >crashed forward onto the pins. This is probably a technique thing, because >I pulled some weight off the bar and got six reps with 275 after I got the >bar back up on the rack. On the set where I lost it, I felt my knees coming >inward, toward each other, instead of staying out like they normally do. > >Have I found a muscular weakness, or does this sound like a technique >thing? My one thought is that maybe my stance is too wide, but I am not >sure of this. > Could be both Chris. When I first started lifting on my heavy sets my knees would turn in. Dr. Squat wrote in his book that this was a sign of weak quads. However, Mike Armstrong saw my technique and felt it was a matter of my body turning to what moves the weight. In this case I needed the quads to move it. Since I've started focusing in on technique and using the Simmons assistance and box squat I no longer have this problem. In your case you might just have had a bad day. Some days I just don't have it when I'm lifting. Rather than push myself and go heavy I thinks its best just to accept you don't have it and scale back on the weight. This was one of the problems I found with a periodized routine. Some days you don't have it and when I go heavy before I contest and have a bad day it throws my psyche right out the window. Pushing through these days sometimes works. But often you just get hurt. Stubborness is a natural characterstic of most lifters I expect (I blame my Scots/Norse heritage!), but it can set you back. As a lifter you have to learn to listen to your body and control your ego. Otherwise ... injuries. If I were you I'd try it again next week and see how it goes before changing anything. BTW - stance width is very unlikey to cause this problem IMO. - - Keith Hobman Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:06:25 -0600 (CST) From: lylemcd@onr.com (Lyle McDonald) Subject: Strength_List: falling forward in the squat >Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:47:34 -0600 >From: Keith Hobman >Could be both Chris. When I first started lifting on my heavy sets my knees >would turn in. Dr. Squat wrote in his book that this was a sign of weak >quads. However, Mike Armstrong saw my technique and felt it was a matter of >my body turning to what moves the weight. In this case I needed the quads >to move it. My feeling is that knees break in as the body attempts to recruit adductor muscles (which are some big freaking muscles) to help people out of the hole if there quads aren't strong enough. Something else to consider is an imbalance in strength between the adductors (inner thigh) and abductors (incorrectly called the outer thigh since the muscles which abduct the thigh are in the butt). I bring this up because of female I train. She rides horses and has seriously strong adductor muscles. As a consequence, her knees tend to pull during squats in because her abductor muscles are unable to keep the knees where they need to be (over the toes). Two ways to correct: 1. Spend some time on the outer thigh machine to strengthen the abductors. Yeah, it's kind of a wussy machine but if it makes your poundages go up...... 2. Get a belt and put it around your knees as you squat (light weights of course). You'll have to actively push your knees out against the belt, and you will get some squat-specific strengthening of the abductors in the right movement pattern. Another thing that causes many individuals to get pushed forward is descending too quickly in the squat. As you hit bottom, the bar still has momentum, and it's against the relatively long lever of the back. This has a tendency to push people forward. So you might see if a slower descent allows you to stay more upright. Beyond that, low back strength would be the other place to look. Perhaps the 300 lb was just enough to overwhelm your static low back strength and push you out of position. Also, as someone else in the digest mentiond 20 lbs is a fairly big jump for only a 1 rep drop (6's to 5's). might have just been a bit too much. Lyle McDonald, CSCS Date: 15 Jan 1999 10:05:13 EDT From: JTARTER@shallowater.esc17.net Subject: Re: Strength_List: box squats cary-over I coach football in Texas and also do the off-season lifting program! I do not allow my lifters when they box squat to use more than 100 lbs of their regular (parallel) squat max. If that is too light for them then I lower the box they use (that immediately makes them have to use less weight). Of course I am working with teen-agers and I have to be careful or they would get their egos out and try to do a bunch more. I do not have my athletes do a straight bar dead lift (you have to remember teen-agers are not nearly as discipilined as most adults generally speaking) but instead I have them use a trap bar and do a dead lift with it! Personally speaking however I feel like box squats stregthen most of the same muscles that I use when I dead lift (sumo-style). Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:59:17 -0800 (PST) From: Joe Boucher Subject: Strength_List: leaning forward on squats If your son leans forward and comes on to his toes with his heels leaving the ground it is most likely due a lack of flexibility in the achilles tendon. Stretch them by wrapping a towel around the foot and pulling back slightly. Also have him practice getting into a proper squat position with no weight on his back and holding the position for 30 seconds or so. Hold on to a power rack to get balanced and then let go until he starts to lose his balance. Do these every day until this position becomes second nature. DO NOT have him train on a Smith machine unless he can not assume a proper squat position after an extended period of training. Smith machines often inhibit with the motor learning of conventional squats. Just have him do body weight squats/lunges/step-ups or some other closed kinetic chain exercises that require him to do all of the work. If your son is leaning forward at the torso he just needs to strengthen his lower back. Weighted back extensions (don't call them hypers) will increase low back strength. Finally remeber your son is 14, not the easiest age to learn complex movements. Puberty doesn't help coordination much. Be patient and attentitive in your coaching and he will be all right. Joe Boucher, CSCS Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 19:47:22 -0500 From: "Warner and Lana Workman" Subject: Leaning too far forward while squatting In general, I have noticed that if people have a hard time going deep and are leaning forward, then they need to lower the weight on their shoulders. Warner and Lana Workman - ----- Original Message ----- From: Big Daddy B Sent: Thursday, January 21, 1999 10:00 AM Subject: Leaning too far forward while squatting >Try to turn toes out slightly.. GB > >billf wrote: > >> Greetings; >> >> Last night was my first squat workout after missing a couple. I'm >> having a problem with my form... I'm leaning to far forward. My foot >> placement is ok (relatively narrow, but normal for me), but I feel I'm >> doing more of a good morning than a squat, and consequently, having a >> problem breaking parallel. My chest is practically resting on my thighs >> at the botton of the squat. >> >> The only thing I could think that I may be doing different is carrying >> the bar lower on my back. It's almost meet time, and I'm doing heavier, >> low-rep sets. I'm thinking the week off (and lack of concentration) is >> affecting me, and I'm compensating by carrying the heavier weight >> lower. Will shifting the bar up slightly get my back more perpendicular >> to the ground? >> >> Bill >> -->> -- >> http://www.trenton.edu/~mspencer/powerpage.html Subject: More about squat form From: Wedderburn <40959@www1.utech.net> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 07:12:57 -0800 There was a thread a couple months ago about squat form. The latest issue of PLUSA has Part II of "A Balding Man's Advice," and it is very interesting indeed. Rob Wagner, the author, is talking about how the center of gravity changes as you descend and ascend and the center of gravity of you, the bar and the combination of you and the bar. The center of gravity should remain over one's foot for the most advantageous lift. Rob then goes on to say that your stance has a great deal to do with keeping the center of gravity in the right place. Here's the interesting part: To determine whether you should use a wide or narrow stance, look at the proportion between the upper and lower leg. If your upper leg is shorter than the lower leg, your stance can stay on the narrow side (inside shoulder width to 3-5" outside shoulder width of each leg). If your upper leg is longer than the lower, the suggestion is to use a wider stance, or from 5" outside shoulder width for each leg and beyond. You also want to take heed of the angle of your foot as the rotation of your leg determines the position of the head of the femur in the socket of the hip joint. The placement you want is one that will allow you the greatest range of motion which would be to break parallel without having to force yourself down. Rob recommends experimenting by placing both hands on top of your head and squatting down. When you find the best stance and foot rotation, then start practicing with a light load until you get used to your new form (if you find you need to adjust it). Rob says this takes about 4 weeks. Rosemary Subject: Re: SQUATS vs LEG PRESSES and DEADLIFTS From: Michael Ragsdale Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 07:13:54 -0800 Sam Francis wrote... >About SQUATS versus LEG PRESSES. I've seen a bunch of guys at my gym >do leg presses using the machines. For a beginner like myself, it looks >like these machine leg presses use roughly the same muscle groups as >squats. But I've read on this list that squats are better for leg >development and overall-body development (i.e., ab development, >coordination, etc.) Is there a big difference between the two exercises? >I have pretty big, solid legs and don't necessarily want to add a lot more >mass. Would leg presses be a better alternative to squats? And do squats >really assist in abdominal development? Consider this: When I squatted (I broke my leg 2 months ago, so no squatting for a while) I was pretty consistently squatting around 315 for 3 sets of 8 after a warmup set. However, when it came to leg presses, I was doing the same amount of sets at 770 pounds. Why? With the leg press, you have one simple motion - the sled is only going to go in one direction so every muscle that you use is going to go toward making the weight go in that direction. When you squat, the weight is free standing. You must use your back, abdomen, arm and shoulder muscles along with all the stabilizer muscles in your legs and feet to keep the weight going in that one safe direction - straight up and straight down. ********************************************************************** * Michael Ragsdale E-mail: mragsdal@utk.edu * Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:00:20 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: Squat Question Hey, I'm an *expert* on hi-squats!! :^) Here's what I'm doing to get down and its been working pretty good. Some of my depth problems were from bad knees (chondromalacia patella), but it still might help. 1. Technique I go as wide as I can, but have to make a trade-off between a width (wider = easier on knees) and depth (narrower = easier to get down). I focus on pushing the knees out and the butt back. Instead of trying to get the bar down try and get the knees out and the butt back. At the end especially focusing on pushing the knees out really helps me to get to depth. 2. Stretching For me it is critical to stretch my hips and glutes. This has allowed me to go wider and wider in my stance and still hit legal depth, which in turn has made it easier on the old knees. 3. Assistance Work I'd add arched back and round back good mornings to my assistance. They help me not to panic at the bottom about the weight coming forward. I'd also continue with the heavy ab work and box squats. - - Keith Hobman Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 01:07:17 EST From: WestsideBB@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: Pushing out on my belt, and bursting vessels in my face. Newsflash Jim!!!! It happens to a lot of us. This exact thing happens to me all the time. I come home from the gym, my girlfriend takes one look at me and can immediately tell that I've been squatting heavy. I almost always burst blood vessels in my face, eyes, and forehead. My nose also bleeds on occasion. One of the funniest things that ever happened to me was the first time I ever used a squat suit. I put it on with a tight belt and tight wraps and proceeded to do a set of 5 reps in the squat. On the 2nd rep, my nose literally exploded! The pressure from everything caused my nose to bleed excessively. I finished the set and several people patted me on the back and exclaimed, "Welcome to our world." Isn't powerlifting great!?! Seriously, I don't think you need to be alarmed by this. And you're right, this usually does not happened if and when you're lifting raw (without gear). On breathing, you've got the right idea...before your descent in the squat, suck in as much air as possible, then hold it and push out with your stomach/abs against your belt. This will help increase the intra-abdominal pressure within your torso and will make your torso more rigid like a column. As you descend, keep your abs tight while holding your breath. Once you reach proper below-parallel depth, start to ascend (still holding breath). I start to breathe/blow air out just after I break parallel on the ascent. Hope this helps. Stay strong, Matt Gary Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:45:44 -0600 From: Chris Manrodt Subject: Strength_List: Re: Getting stronger vrs. weaker Steve, After I squat, I do leg presses with a very wide stance (my toes hang off the edge of the skid plate.) These were recommended to me by someone on the list (Sorry, I forgot who.) These really help me to build the inner thigh muscles (Adductors or Abductors, I always forget which.) Since adding these, I have had lots of confidence in the hole. Now if only my lockout would improve the same way!! - -Chris Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:04:41 EST From: JOCRF19@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: Squat Depth In a message dated 3/2/99 4:17:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, jeff@webdesigns1.com writes: << I believe full (all the way down) squats would be most beneficial for development but at what point would you want to go to just below parallel? Or do both? >> If you are squatting with a wide (powerlifting) stance, you will probably just go below parallel (biomechanically, I don't think a wide stance is really possible to do all the way down to the floor) whereas if you are using a shoulder-width or narrow stance, it is much easier (again, biomechanically) to "plant your butt on the floor." A full squat obviously gives you full range of motion for the legs, but a wide powerlifting squat protects the back a little more and, at least for me, is the stronger of the two. IMHO both serve the purpose of gaining--size for deep squats, strength for wide. Other opinions? Court Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 18:15:22 -0600, MDT From: "FS ANDERSON SEAN K" Subject: Re: Strength_List: First Meet Ever JT: Really what you want to do is to train so that you yourself can judge by your speed of descent and how you feel that you have gone below parallel. Basically you don't want to come to depend on external signals like coaches telling you when to go up or looking in the mirror. There are two ways of learning when you have legal squat depth: One is to do box squats where the box and cushion are set about one or two inches below parallel. After doing lots of these exercises you'll have a better sense of when you're crossing beneathe parallel. Another way is to get something like bungie tubing and have someone spot how high your butt is off the floor when you're in a squat position that's legal depth. You could then stretch the elastic tubing across between two posts or maybe support bars in a squat rack and pratice squatting until your butt touches the tubing. Again you'd want to focus on internal clues like your general speed of descent (it may take you about 2 or 3 secodns to reach below parallel) and also an awareness of your bodily position when you hit that depth. Some lifters notice that their belt will touch their leg at a characteristic point when they reach that depth. That way you can go into the meet and learn to recognize that depth when you hit it without someone having to shout a cue to you. Anyhow best of luck on your first meet! Sean Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:05:44 EST From: STEAL4HIM@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: The stomach while squatting The Mighty Squat by Lorne Goldenberg (Winter '99 IRONMAN) Here is a post from IronMan mag. I was wondering about the elbows pointing straight down as opposed to back ( Like mine when I am really trying to keep tight). And also they say to suck in while as going down, I thought we have been taught to push our fat guts against our belts ? Boy am I confussed? Technical Points Your feet should be shoulder width apart, but you can place them a little wider, which sometimes alleviates any pain in the hips or lower back. Many powerlifters use a much wider stance, which decreases the range of motion the knees and hips have to go through and lets the lifter handle much higher poundages. If you^Rre interested in building mass, though, keep your feet closer together so you force the muscle through a greater range of motion. Good Form Your hands should be in as tight as possible to your shoulders. If your hands are out wide, they rotate internally, causing the elbows to point backward as you descend. That, in turn, forces the bar forward, which forces your chest forward and increases pressure on the disks at the L4-L5 region of the back. It's impossible to squat with correct technique if you don't have the lexibility in your shoulders. That has to do with short, tight external rotators (infraspinatus, teres minor). I cringe every time I see pictures in a bodybuilding magazine of Mr. Whoever demonstrating the squat with his elbows pointing back, looking like a dancing chicken. Your elbows should point straight down during every rep. If you can't keep them there, stop squatting and work on your flexibility. Before you actually start to descend, you should inhale and suck in your stomach to activate the transverse abdominis, which is your body's natural weightlifting belt. If you learn to use it properly, you increase intra- abdominal pressure, which will have an unloading effect on your disks.1 As with any other muscle, if you don't use it, you lose it! I'm not a proponent of lifting belts because wearing one tends to cause dysfunction of your transverse abdominis, which can eventually lead to serious injury. A weight belt inhibits your nervous system^Rs ability to fire that muscle when it's needed--not only for weightlifting activity but for normal everyday movements. That's one reason you hear about bodybuilders who bend over to pick up something and all of a sudden they're in severe pain. The injury was in the making for many months, if not years. Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:19:19 EST From: Mcsiff@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: SQUATTING TECHNIQUE On 3/12/99, STEAL4HIM@aol.com wrote: <> ***Again this is very individual, since there are some narrower squatters who can handle some very heavy loads. One does not need a wider stance to decrease the range of knee motion - one can simply choose to go less deep with a narrower stance and thereby satisfy the referees. <> ***It depends on which muscles one is interested in developing. With a narrower stance, there is more emphasis on the knee flexors (especially vastus medialis) and less on the adductors, so that the narrower stance tends to develop the inner and middle quads more. With a wider stance, the outer and middle quads, as well as the thigh adductors tend to hypetrophy more. In fact, if anyone is looking for a powerful exerciser of the thigh adductors, try a wide squat and you will know all about it for days afterwards. The different components of the gastrocs (which also help to extend the knee during the squat) also tend to develop differently with narrower versus wider squats. In other words, it is not quite correct to say that narrower squats develop more leg muscle mass. <> ***Again this is an individual matter - there are some great powerlifters, all of whom have very different hand spacings and elbow orientations. Whatever your grip, just don't allow your spine to flex, rotate to one side or flex and rotate simultaneously. What you do with your head tends to determine what the rest of your body does - look down and you tend to tilt forwards, look up and you tend to tilt more backwards - looking where it individually suits you best will provide you with your own optimal position. That horror story about pressure increase in the lower spine needs some clarification. It is not simply degree of lean which determines stress in the spinal disks. ANY loading on the spine will do that, no matter whether you are upright, leaning forwards or leaning backwards. Biomechanically, if a load is imposed downwards at a certain angle on the spine, we can consider its effects in terms of a longitudinal component (along the length of the spine) and a transverse component (perpendicular to the length of the spine). Actually, since this is a 3-dimensional system, there are really two transverse components, but let us assume here that the spine is not being tilted or rotated to one side. Thus, if one uses a very erect squatting position, there is a larger longitudinal or compressive load on the spinal discs and a smaller transverse or shearing force across the spine. Conversely, if one tilts more forward, the longitudinal stress is less and the transverse stress is greater. This just means that it is meaningless to say that an elbow backwards grip "...forces the bar forward, which forces your chest forward and increases pressure on the disks at the L4-L5 region of the back".. Moreover, during the Olympic Snatch, the body usually has a marked forward lean with the bar held overhead just behind the head, thereby producing that dreaded degree of spinal pressure increase - which is not known to be associated with any significant increase in spinal injury. ANY form of increased loading on the spine, including jogging or jumping, greatly increases the pressure on those same discs, even if your trunk is fairly upright. That popularised attempt to scare you is factually misleading. However, if you round the lower spine markedly or twist or tilt the trunk while squatting or deadlifting, then the lumbar discs in particular tend to be loaded excessively in some regions, instead of allowing the load to be distributed more evenly over the entire surface of the spinal discs. This can cause the discs to bulge or even to herniate and allow some of the pulpy gel (nucleus pulposus) inside to press on the spinal nerves, leading to pain and dysfunction. Now, THIS is far more serious than elbows in, out, up or down! This means that you should always try to load your spinal discs as evenly as possible by not rounding, twisting or tilting your lower back (or worse still, doing a combination of all of those things). Remember, too, that bouncy moves with a heavily loaded bar can produce powerful oscillatory additional loading of the spine, so that one should try to minimise this tendency by squatting in a well-controlled, non-jerky manner - unless, of course you are used to this sort of oscillatory added loading! < Subject: Strength_List: An odd question Okay everyone, I have a a question I would valuse some opinions on. I know this is considered a "no-no", but it *seems* to be helping. Since I have been re-learning how to squat, I am finding my groove again, however the minor aspect I am encountering that seems to help is if I keep my head angled down?! I know this is advised against and generally your body follows your head. The thing of it is, when I do this it puts me in the proper lean that I need to accomodate my build, and it also allows me to maintain the natural curvature in my back. When I put my head up or straight forward it tends to over-arch my lower back (especially in the hole, result is my quads fire first and hips come up faster than the shoulders...ouch!). If I keep my head inclined to the same angle that my torso is I have no problem and I am able to really sit into my lower abdominals. The reason I bring this up is that I am just curious about everyone's opinions. I know that all the supposed rules for squatting are not 100% applicable to everyone, so am I maybe hitting on something wrong here or should I continue to utilize the methodology that is working and doesn't overstress my back? In all honesty, it really does make finding that power groove much easier and it allows me to utilize hips/glutes for the main portion of the lift. Otherwise, I feel like all my concentration is going to *trying* to keep the transverse ab tight...can't always do it since I feel like it is really strecthed. Thanks for any insight and opinions. - -wade Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:16:59 -0400 From: frralbany@isoa.net (Jeff DeMott) Subject: Re: Strength_List: An odd question Here is my opinion. I began using this same approach after training with George Hechter, several years ago. I keep my head inclined slightly down as I descend and then drive it back when I hit my sticking point on the ascent. George used this same approach and it made a big difference in my squat. I say keep using it. I felt like it made a difference in my groove and within about 9 weeks of using it I went from a 550 double in the squat to 615 for a double. It helped my leverages and comfort that much. Jeff DeMott Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:41:57 EDT From: ADFIT@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: Re: An odd question Wade, disregarding the old saying "look up and you'll go up," I think looking down is more of an issue for high bar squatters. Looking down lifts the tail of the vertebrae (spinous process) and would put undue pressure on, and distribute the load poorly in the area of the last cervical and first couple of thoracic vertebrae. I've talked with about a dozen customers who actually broke a spinous process doing this (and usually bouncing the bar to center it). So, if you're a low bar squatter and looking down doesn't mess with your balance... I don't see a problem. You might want to gradually move toward looking straight ahead, though. If you like the angle of your lower spine the way it is, you might be able to keep it that way by consciously trying to raise your head without letting your chest come up. Mark Pittroff ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Advanced Fitness, Inc adfit@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:41:56 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: An odd question Don Reinholdt actually looked at the head judges feet during the squat - and did 920 raw in competition. So obviously it can be done. Mike Armstrong also tends to look down a bit I've noticed. However, Mike also appears to fire more with his quads. I'm not sure the head is as critical as the arch being locked in the back. I'm not sure how you over arch tho.. Would it be possible to video and watch your own technique? This is normally the best way. I'd be very careful with this. If you are still arching and locking out of the hole it is okay. But it may be hiding a serious flaw in technique and over time could hinder you. Let me put it this way. Make sure the chest is out even if the head is down a bit and you probably will be okay. But be careful! - - Keith Hobman Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:21:26 +0100 From: Andy Clegg Subject: Strength_List: Re: Strength-Digest: V1 #707 Wade, I started to do the exact same thing about three years ago. I have my head down (probably looking at a point 6-8 feet in front of me) during the whole squat (descent and ascent). It seems to makes the bar more stable on my back/shoulders and more importantly it allows me to keep it tighter when driving out of the bottom of the squat. Seems to work for me. A few other lifters I know do this as well (deliberately rather than bad technique) but we're defintely in the minority. The down side is all the "pseudo-coaches" telling you that you should keep your head up when squatting. Andy Clegg________________________________andy@isc.eee.strath.ac.uk___ Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:16:41 -0400 From: "Landers,Garth" Subject: Strength_List: Re:Strange Question Wade:are you using your glutes more with this approach? I am a glute/quad squatter and I can see this happening for you (head down). I would think that your head down would lead to your torso being more parallel to the ground (not a good thing in my opine). It sounds like you are rounding your back. Maybe you should work your abs and hips more? Sorry I dont have a concrete answer-this is what I am applying to my weaknesses. They sound similar to yours. Just my.02. Regards, Garth Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:31:06 -0400 From: Wade Hanna Subject: Re: Strength_List: An odd question -Reply Thanks all for the responses! I think I am going to keep it for a while and see how things shape up. I feel nice and tight and my chest is up so the major criteria are being met. Since the weight is lighter right now I don't think I can hurt myself anymore ;-) Thanks again and good liftin' - -wade Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:05:45 -0700 From: "BIO-FORCE" Subject: Re: Strength_List: An odd question Regarding head position during squats. I think the goal is not to look up or down but to maintain spinal neutrality. That is, to maintain all the natural curves in your spine to provide the maximum force distribution on each and every disc in the chain. Looking up or down to the extreme will cause you to accentuate or de-accentuate those curves. As you sit reading this if you begin to look down further and further (until your chin touches your chest) you will notice the thoracic curve beginning to increase and the lordotic curve begins to flatten. Neither is good in a heavy squat. If you look up, the opposite happens. The trick is to find the neutral position and if you need a spot to concentrate on then find it by experimenting with lighter weights, then get into the habit of focusing on it. As an individual "USUALLY" we automatically find the most comfortable position and the most effective position if we let our bodies find it without trying to force it one way or the other. If you are experiencing the "bad" type of pain then you are most likely doing it incorrectly. Regards, John A. Casler Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:46:21 -0700 From: "BIO-FORCE" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Bands Use Have you tried using the bands to reduce the weight in the squat? What I mean is, I put the bands across the power rack so that as I lower the bar and get to the bottom of my squat I hit the bands. This removes some of the weight at the bottom. It allows you to use and feel heavier weights than you would normally be able to use. Then on progressive workouts you remove the bands. The 3 bands I use will support 135 pounds at the bottom of my full squat. So is I have 495 on the bar, at the bottom of the squat I have 360. A few inches up from "full" I might have 400, and as I leave the bands, it is the full 495. It means I can do multiple reps with a weight that would normally be a single. Then over a three week period I remove one band at a time until I am doing the 495 with NO bands. In fact I thought everybody used bands this way. Oh, by the way, I use bungee cords (two red and one yellow) Regards, John A. Casler. Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:29:45 EDT From: JOCRF19@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: Bands Use In a message dated 4/21/99 5:20:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bioforce@email.msn.com writes: << In fact I thought everybody used bands this way. Oh, by the way, I use bungee cords (two red and one yellow) >> Intriguing. I thought everyone used the bands the way we do--strapping the bands to a very low bar at the bottom of the squat rack and then around each end of the barbell so the resistance increases on the way up to the top, but the band is slack at the bottom. I'll have to give this other way a try. How high up do you attach the bands? Midway? I'm trying to picture this (haven't seen it)--bungees attached below the bar racked inside a squat rack? Makes sense. Can anyone say "paradigm shift?" Courtenay Schurman, CSCS Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:14:57 -0700 From: "BIO-FORCE" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Get on the BAND Wagon Hi Courtney, Yeah, when I heard that people were using "bands" I tried to picture how they could be used. Without having access to any "Westside" tapes I assumed that chains were used to hang on the bar ends and bands were secured to the uprights on a power rack so that when you lowered a bar into them they subtracted some of the weight. So I ran over to COSTCO and bought a collection of "bungee cords" ($9.95). They came in different colors, strengths and lengths. I attached them to the power rack uprights on each side so as I squat they begin to contact the bar as I approach parallel and are at full stretch in the very bottom position just before I hit the safety pins. This is also the position where they offer the greatest support. They can be placed at any height depending on where you want to start subtracting weight. Just be careful not to "overstretch" or break them. (see caution below) You can determine where to place them and the amount of force they subtract by placing an unloaded bar on them and loading it till it sags to your bottom position. Then make note of the number and color of the bands used and the position or holes in the power rack you have it hooked. Obviously power racks come in different sizes so the more a cord is stretched the greater "up force" it gives you. But greater stretch also reduces the amount of vertical travel it will allow. I also suggest you drape a towel over the cords so that the knurling of the bar does not eat into it over time which might weaken them or cause premature failure. The beauty of this method of using bands, is that you get the real feel of the heavier weight and develop the "head" needed to handle it. Then as I mentioned, you, "over a period of workouts", begin removing bands, one by one" until you are using the weight without bands, full range. It can be used for benches, squats and Deads (although I haven't done deads with it yet) as long as you do all the exercises in a power rack and stretch the bands across the uprights. They also could be used at the top of movements (to add force) in the same way. Have fun, give it a try. A WORD OF CAUTION! Don't use this set up without safety bars at the maximum stretched position. If you were to lose a weight (unlikely since it is lighter in the weak position) you might break the band or pull it loose from where you fastened it. This could cause it to sling through the gym at a very dangerous speed. The potential for injury is great if you use these without setting up the parameters of safety. Regards, John A. Casler Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 09:12:30 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: Squats and Bar Placement Ken wrote, > >Actually, I've got a different concern related to low bar squats -- if >Chris or >anyone else can give some advice, I'd appreciate it. I try to place the >bar as >low as possible, but below a certain point, it feels like the bar is going to >slide off my back (and I do use a bar with knurling in the center). Should I >lean my torso forward more, or do I need to support the bar more with my >arms? Personally, I don't think you should have to support the bar at all with your arms while squatting. The bar should be resting on your upper back and shoulders with the arms serving only to stabilize it. Remember Ken, the bar can only be a few cm's below the shoulder. >>>>Squat 1. The lifter shall assume an upright position with the top ofthe bar not more than 3 cm below the top of the anterior deltoids. The bar shall be held horizontally across the shoulders with the hands and fingers gripping the bar and the feet flat on the platform with the knees locked.<<<< So trying to get too low might be counter-productive. Work it as low as you can, but make sure the weight is supported by torso. Forward lean is okay, but keep the chest out and back arched. I wouldn't go below 'that certain point' you are referring to - sounds like you've found the right place. - - Keith Hobman Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 10:42:17 -0600, MDT From: "FS ANDERSON SEAN K" Subject: RE: Strength_List: Westside DL's -Reply > From: JTARTER@shallowater.esc17.net > Can someone tell me exactly how you do kneeling squats? You want to set the support pins inside a power rack so that you can get the barbell on your back while on your knees but with your hips, back and upper body essentailly "standing" upright above your knees. Once you have the weighted barbell on your back you sit back so that your butt comes back down to your calves. You then thrust up so that you are again in a "standing " position from knees to head. Sit back again and repest for ten reps of so. A wrestlying mat or other padding under the knees and lower legs is recommended. This exercise develops strong hip flexion and is supposed to help with your deadlift as well. A WARNING: Louie Simmons, who has popularized this exercise which used to be a favorite of Soviet/Russian OLers, cautions that you should not go heaving on this one - i.e. don't use it as a "max effort" exercise. Keith Hobman worked out a rule of thumb for it that you should use no more than 90% of your ordinary squat 1RM for kneeling squats. I learned by experience that it is not wise to go heavy on this exercise: My squat PR was 530 and in the kneeling squat I tried to "max out." I eventually got up to 705 lbs and did 3 reps. This was really fun until I experienced a serious of twitches in my lower right leg that felt just wrong. I pulled my tibialis tendons at their insertion points on my lower leg on March 8. I am just getting over this injury now. After getting injured I reviewed my Simmons tapes in which Louie clearly stated that it's not a good idea to go too heavy on this exercise. Hope this helps you. Andy Anderson Date: Tue, 11 May 1999 13:06:30 -0400 From: "John Koch" Subject: RE: Knelling squats Do them exactly like they sound. Get down on your knees. Take the bar off of the rack just like a normal squat. Lower your butt to the floor and then get back up. It's that easy. Most people can do about 20% more than their best squat. I only work up to a six rep max because any heavier would be a little too stressful on the knees. I hope this helps. John Koch Subject: Front Squat Problems From: "Nick Scollay" Date: Sun, 9 May 1999 20:46:36 -0700 I am having difficulty keeping correct form when doing Front Squats. I find when I am beginning to fatigue, I have problems keeping my upper arms parallel to the ground. I basically lean foward so my wrists begin to take the brunt of the load. This means I have to terminate a set well before my lower body is fatigued so I don't induce some tendon injury to my wrists. I don't think it is a shoulder or wrist flexibility problem as I can keep correct form on warm up sets with no problems at all. Then I thought that maybe I'm using a too high rep scheme as I realise that the Front Squat is a high skill exercise. I'm using the 5x5 system presently. But then I remember that I've had similar problems with lower-rep Front Squats. My best guess is that my upper back is weak in relation to my lower body and when I'm using weights big enough for my legs my upper back can't handle it. Does this sound correct? Is the best route to take is to 'hold steady' my lower body development until my upper back catches up? I thank you in advance for any suggestions. Nick Scollay Date: Fri, 14 May 1999 06:03:30 -0700 From: "Frank Cable" Subject: Strength_List: Steve's friend Don-Reply >From: "Tim & Christa Ramey" >Subject: Re: Strength_List: Steve's friend Don -Reply >I've never used a leg press that managed to remove my lower back from the >lift. Now, mind you, I have only used 2, but my back has to round when the >thighs get near my chest, and it helps the bottom part of the push quite a >bit.. >>>> Until you produce a bulging disc. The leg press is the culprit (actually, my lifting partner was the culprit) in my bulging disc that eventually herniated. I maxed out on reps and he wasn't paying attention. My lower back went into flexion (rounded) and I felt something give. By the time he came to my rescue it was too late! If you observe someone on the leg press it looks like they are doing a full good morning and squat together with their knees way forward. Not very condusive to safety. A 3/4 rep would be safer and a much better alternative would be belt squats. Borglifter Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:55:05 EDT From: PWRFRK650@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: squat width In a message dated 5/18/99 7:47:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Cen72180@centuryinter.net writes: << I was in the deep south this past weekend and had the opportunity to train with 2 great power lifters. One was Steve Miller , he is ranked in the top 3 all time. The other was Larry Kye he is equally as great. I have had a very wide stance with feet out about 45 degrees. These two guys have great squats 700 plus and are over 50 years old. They both encouraged me to bring my width into about shoulder width or a little wider . What do most of you do and why? What are the advantages and disadvantages of either way? Thanks and God bless you all. God Bless, >> This is the old fashioned way of squatting some find it better to squat narrow some find it easier to go wider it all has to do with your leverages.... But squatting wider makes yur range of motion much shorter hence easier to squat more weight... Chris Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:54:08 -0400 From: "Michael W. Brookman, Jr" Subject: Re: Strength_List: squat width I use a wide stance. I am 5'10" or so, depending one the day. :) I use a wide stance, about a a foot or two outside of shoulder width. I find this easier on me to get proper depth and be able to explode out of the hole without leaning forward. When I use a narrow stance I tend to lean forward more and not sit back into the squat. I have worked alot on my hips and buttocks and found a wide stance to be even better with these strenth gains. Mike Brookman - --THE POWER PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/colosseum/9757/power.html Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:01:57 -0400 From: Rick Matthews Subject: Strength_List: Squat Stance I'm not sure if any one squat style is better or worse, and I think it depends on the individual. I've seen a lot of people adopt very unnatural squatting stances that were based on what their favorite PL heros have done. Some were so incredibly off balance that a fly landing on their back would have sent them face first into the floor. To complicate matters, there have been very successful squatters who have used different stances. What I have observed is that the individual's stance must be conducive to their own physical structure (i.e., relative length of leg bones, hip width, relative back and hip strength, center of gravity, bar placement, etc.) The irony, I think, is that squatting is a perfectly natural movement, and many times people force themselves into unnatural positions, and their strength suffers as a result. A few weeks ago I was thinking about squatting stances when I was watching my 1 year old daughter play. She had just learned how to walk, and having a good time playing in our living room. She came to a toy, squatted down and picked it up. I continued to watch her for about 15 minutes as she went from toy to toy picking them up. During that time, she was perfectly balanced, never fell over, and squatted the same every time. Her squat appeared very fluid and natural, almost effortless. The effortless nature and perfect balance of her squat amazed me, as she had only been walking for a few days. I'm quite certain she wasn't giving her technique any real thought either :) I also noticed that her squat was a little different from my son's. He has his mother's narrow hip structure, and my daughter has mine (which is fairly wide). That night when I squatted, I paid specific attention to my stance, foot placement, etc. Low and behold, it was strikingly similar to my daughter's. Before this, I hadn't given my squatting stance much thought. I had always squatted the same way-- balanced and in a "natural" squatting position that felt right. The point, I think, is that most people already know what their stance should be, but they have over analyzed to the point of not being able to squat naturally. I think there is a parallel here with golf-- when golf swings are broken down, we find that they are incredibly complex movements that require nearly perfect synchronization of many muscle groups to hit the ball far and straight. The amount of mental energy you would have to expend to make sure every part of the swing was "correct" would be enormous. And, yet, most people hit the ball further and straighter if they loosen up and don't think about every little movement. In short, the body knows what to do, but the busy mind takes over and gets in the way. On some levels, I think the same is true for squatting. Rick Matthews CORRECTING SQUAT PROBLEMS by Mel Siff Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 15:58:12 EDT From: Mcsiff@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: CORRECTING SQUAT PROBLEMS This following question was asked on another user group. May comments on the issue may be of interest here. First the question: This drew the following suggestion: <> ***I first saw this sometimes-useful method of 'imperfection training' being used by Sultan Rachmanov, soviet world weightlifting champion in the late 1970s (for those who have our book, he is the huge guy standing beside me in the front inside picture of "Supertraining"), but my Russian colleagues stressed that this technique was best used after the novice stages of training or for training the stabilisers for situations where lifts were not exactly "in the groove". By the way, it offers far more sport specific stabiliser training than The Ball or Wobble Board. If doing light overhead or front squats does not help, one thing I have found that works with some difficult cases is to position your client with his face close to a wall so that he will strike his forehead on the wall if he persists in leaning forwards. Instruct him to try to slide his chest up the wall and to avoid looking down while attempting this move. Either that or hold a wooden broom handle vertically in firm contact with one side of his chest and have him slide upwards, chest held high, against it while executing a front or back squat. I have a few other methods (which I call 'potty training' because of their similarity to what we use to teach children how to carry out some of the most basic movements in life) that I have used with difficult squatting and deadlifting problem cases over the years , but try these 'tricks' first and see what happens. If you are trying 'hands-on' techniques of trying to push or pull the lifter into position, remember that too great a pressure exerted by your hands on the body can produce reflex muscle action which is exactly the opposite of what you want in the lifter. That is one reason why I have suggested the above methods in which the lifter himself is responsible for producing the guiding pressure on his body. Mel Siff Dr Mel C Siff Denver, USA mcsiff@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:41:03 -0500 From: "Gregory Whalin" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Box Squats > I have read a lot on doing box squats instead of regular squats. Why is it > more advantageous? Wouldn't I be just as well served by doing regular > squats, butt to the floor, with lighter weights and explosively standing? > I'm not questioning the wisdom here, just looking for the subtle difference > between doing these two as explained. > Box squats break the concentric/eccentric (or vice versa ... I always get these two terms confused) chain when you relax the hip flexors while sitting on the box. They are great at building explosive strength in your hips out of the hole. They are also great at teaching correct form in the squat (the helped me immensely with form). Greg - -- Gregory Whalin gwhalin@numerix.com Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:54:53 -0600 From: "ianmckown" Subject: Strength_List: Beginning As I've said before(the whisper in the roar) I wouldn't recommend implementing box squats if you are a beginning lifter. Maybe I've missed something and you are an experienced lifter? I personally think you'd benefit more from just hitting the basics for 6 months and then start tweaking your routine. And as far as ordering a squat suit/bench shirt... Why start using those crutches this early in the game. There is something intrinsically wrong with having a shirt that is so tight that you can't get the bar to your chest. Can these people really say(or admit to themselves) that they really lifted the weight? Maybe when you are pushing alot of weight. get a loose singlet(for competition)... If you start relying on equipment from the beginning, your body ever need to put forth 100% effort... Its almost as if it comes down to who has the best equipment, not who is the strongest anymore. A guy at my gym was trying to brag that he hit 35lbs more on the bench than me(even though he had a shirt on)... So what! I say.. Stick with the basics until you're seasoned... The go balls out.. Raw Lifters-Above All Ian Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:26:55 -0500 From: Bob Mann Subject: Re: Strength_List: Beginning Fred Hatfield, for one, prefers what he calls pause squats. Just taking it deep and pausing at the bottom for a count and then exploding up as you describe. Basically a box squat without the box. > >Stick with the basics until >you're seasoned... The go balls out.. I think you have the wrong idea here. No matter how much equipment you have on you still need to exert maximum effort. While I agree that it isn't the best thing to start out with and I wouldn't even recommend it for a first meet, I can safely assert that it is no easier to lift in equipment than it is without it. In fact, it is harder because you are moving more weight. I can legal squat 352 lbs raw but over 400 in suit and wraps.(not great but at my age, weight and height it is okay) Guess which hurts more to pick up and set up with. Ditto with the bench. It hurts more to hold and lock out 350 than it does 315. The effort of the actual lift is about the same except for the strain of the extra weight. I wouldn't compare one lifter's lift with gear to another's without it, which is why I like to know what I can lift both ways, but if you are competing that is exactly what happens on the scoresheet. Lifting raw is fine, just don't expect to get a lot of pats on the back from those of us who compete in equipment legal meets. It's like saying that you would be a champion sprinter but you don't want to run in spikes. If the equipment is part of the rules then you put yourself at a disadvantage by not using it. - -- Bob Mann http://members.home.net/bobmann Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:44:43 -0400 From: "John Koch" Subject: RE: Strength_List: Box Squats Tommy, if you are going to do box squats you might want to consider ordering the Louie Simmons squat workout tape first. I never did box squats correctly until I saw them being done on the tape. Make sure you learn the power squat properly. Carry the bar low on your shoulders and concentrate on squatting back not down. This will get the hip and glute muscles involved and eventually you will be able to squat much more. Don't forget that it takes some time to adjust from high-bar to low-bar squats. Good luck!! John Subject: Re: Busting a knee squatting Date: 16 Jul 1999 13:06:24 GMT In article , Jérôme Phaneuf wrote: > >He thinks I am lifting too heavy for my capacities, because my knees are >shaking while I go in extension. They go sideways. He said I am going to >bust a knee. If your knees are collapsing to the inside then you are at great risk of giving yourself a terrible knee injury. Cut the weight and work on your form. Squats, like deadlifts, are a lift where any deviation from form is reason to call an end to that set. Mark it in your book as a form failure, and go on. Ted K. >I do not feel that this weight is too heavy for me. I can now make three >sets of 10 reps without feeling that I am about to collapse. I focus mostly >on keeping my back very straight, and I don't mind much what my legs may be >doing, because I know they can lift this weight. The knees just shake. > >My knees do not hurt. Have never hurt either. > >Does anyone have anything to say about this situation? Should I go with a >lighter weight that will allow me to have a perfect form but not heavy >enough to efficiently hit the muscles the squats usually hit, or should I go >on with my training, and not worry about those knees going everywhere, as >long as I do not feel that I am going to hurt myself or collapse? >-- Edward J. Kilsdonk RedTed@Virginia.EDU http://faraday.clas.virginia.edu/~ejk4e Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 14:57:46 -0500 From: "Jeff Oien" Subject: RE: Strength_List: WestSide big squats > I know this is alittle off topic, can someone explain kneeling squats to me. > > Scott > I would describe these as just doing squats except on your knees. Your knees will be at the same width as your regular squat. Squat down and sit on your feet. Then move your hips forward to "stand" back up. Don't try to use your quads, just move your hips forward. You should be able to work up to reps with more than your 1RM weight for squats. I think this is an exercise that can be used to still have the feel of heavy weight before a competition for those who are nervous about that. - -- Jeff Oien P.S. feet will be extended (toes pointed) when kneeling Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:45:38 -0500 Subject: Squat Tips from Doug Daniels ****Taken from Cyberpump at http://www.cyberpump.com **** Squat Tips by Doug Daniels Since I've been writing articles for PL USA, I've received many letters from lifters looking for simple answers to their questions. After a while, some of the questions repeat themselves. Not all the answers are in articles as many articles on training the 3 lifts only come with sets and reps with little else in the way of the fine points of getting that something extra out of the lift or info on common problems lifters have. Though this article may decrease the amount of mail I get at my Post Office Box, I thought I'd write it anyway. Let's examine the squat. One of the questions I get a lot is on the matter of squat stance. First off, there's no way that I can exactly recommend guaranteed- to-work stance choice and execution by correspondence. What I can give, however, are some tips to use when choosing your most effective stance in the squat. Squat stance varies greatly throughout the sport with extremely successful examples of each type of stance. What's it all mean? It means that every lifter will have to choose his/her best stance and not let a favorite athlete's stance influence the choice. Some lifters have been recommended to try squatting wide because "it looked like they should be wide squatters" by their coaches or advisers. What sometimes happens is the lifter's squat suffers a marked decrease and the lifter can't figure out what's wrong. I agree that lifters should remain open-minded to advice from other sources and should give new ideas a fair shake. If after a good period of trial they fail to work, their use should be reconsidered. What's a "good period" of time? Probably one training cycle. This period of time should be sufficient to determine if you are on the right track. Even a failure can have positive benefits. You have eliminated, with a high degree of certainty, one training method or technique that you thought may benefit you. If you narrow your stance, you may require more back strength, as well as more ab strength as in the wide stance. Narrow squatters tend to use more back while wide squatters use more in the way of hip strength. Your assistance training should be geared to accomplish these new strength needs. Use moderate weights until you get the new stance down pat. Going full-speed into a new stance could result in injury and loss of confidence. Another common question is leaning forward during execution of the squat. The result is usually either registering a lower lift or a missed lift due to depth problems. The depth problem occurs because as the squatter descends into the squat, his back leans forward, closer to parallel to the ground, which, in turn, raises the hips. This results in the need for the squatter to descend even lower than he may think he needs to break parallel. The most obvious answer to this problem is to be aware that this happens. The lifter will need to make an adjustment in his perception of necessary depth if the lean is maintained. There are more execution considerations. Try keeping your head up during the squat. This will aid in keeping your back more upright. Also, keep you chest out and elbows back. This will help keep your torso upright and straight. Don't let the bar slide too far down your back during the lift. This will cause your back to bend forward to keep the weight in place. Set up with these ideas in mind, and you stand to improve your chances. This comes from practice in the gym. Don't wait until the meet or you may get "redlightitis"! There are some training methods available to help reduce back bend or to help the lifter deal with it. Again, increased flexibility would be helpful, especially in the hamstrings and hips, as some lifters may not be flexible enough to remain upright comfortably. This is critical in both wide and close stance squatting. Increased torso strength, front and back, would help stabilize the torso and help maintain an upright position. Lower back work like hyperextensions or deadlifts off the block are top choices for lower back strength. Ab strength can be improved through crunches. Sit-ups are a poor choice as they have been shown to be mostly a back and hip exercise with slight isometric contraction of the abs. Along with the lower back, upper back work of the traps and lats would be helpful. You really need full back development to extract a big squat as well as a big deadlift. Exercises here include chins, pulldowns, rowing, and shrugs. Strong shoulders and arms help to support the weight while it's on your back. This will help to keep the bar in place during the entire squat from unracking to placing it back on the rack after your 3 white light attempt. I hope I've given you a few usable squat tips. There is more to squatting than sets, reps, knee wraps, and squat suits. Keep in mind the importance of your form during the squat and combine it with a good routine and an open mind and you will see the results and more white lights. Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 09:47:41 -0400 From: "John Koch" Subject: Re: Strength_List: high bar squat >>> "Tom O'Brien" 8/5/99 9:14:41 AM >>> OK, rookie mode engaged! What is the difference, exactly, between a high bar squat and a power squat? High bar squat - - carry the bar up on your traps Power squat - - carry the bar lower on your back The bar seems to sit nicely on my rear delts. According to "Dr. Squat" people can power squat up to 30% more. It will take you some time to get used to it. John Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:35:11 -0400 From: "Shafley, Steven (SD)" Subject: RE: Strength_List: high bar squat Bob and Tom (LOL) The high bar squat, or Olympic style squat has the bar high on the traps and the body in a more upright position. You are squatting in between your legs and very low, with a moderate to somewhat narrow stance (around shoulder width) The power squat is lower on the back, performed with a wider stance and done to parallel or slightly breaking parallel. You sit back when you power squat. The difference: high bar uses more quad, low bar or power uses more posterior muscles. You can generally do more weight with the power squat. Steve Shafley Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:03:51 -0400 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Squats and reverse back extensions >>> "Richard Vagle" 08/24/99 11:42PM >>> My second question is on the squat. Most of my life I have been just going to parallel or to where the crease in my hip is lower than my knee. I have been trying full squats and it is tough to keep my hips from tucking underneath me in the bottom position. This causes me to lean forward which makes it tough for me to keep my torso verticle and I begin to rise with my hips first. Could this be caused by a weak low back? This puzzles me because my deadlift max is 500 lbs. and my best full squat is around 250. So it seems because my deadlift is higher than my squat my low back should be strong enough. Again any feedback is greatly appreciate. >>>>>>>>>>This is all form. I doubt you have a weakness per se. I think the extra depth is caving your abs somewhat, shooting you forward, and closing your groin. The last being the most important aspect because this puts the "drive" force into your legs instead of your hips, regardless of how deep you squat. When you descend/ascend on your squat ensure that you are pushing your knees out. This can be a very minor actual movement, but the sensation is what is important. You must maintain that outward pressure throughout the whole motion to "keep your groin open" (this is a tip from Eddy Coan that he learned from Doug Furnas...so discount it at your peril). You'll know what it means when you feel it. In the process of pushing your knees out, keep your weight on the outer edge of your foot, it is deceiving to say "push your knees" out, when you really are trying to push your entire leg out to the side (think about trying to force your heels straight out to the sides, but! they won't move because they are gripping the floor). Some of the terminology we utilize, is confusing IMO. Hope this helps. Wade Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 22:09:24 -0500 From: Roger Subject: Re: Strength_List: Need WSB clarification. My squat sucks. At 04:52 PM 8/25/99 -0700, you wrote: >I wrote: >> >>Questions: Is the severe bruising on the lower traps common? > >Then Roger inquired: > >****No they are not. Are you sure you were not carrying the bar TOO low? >The rule is 25mm (roughly 1 inch) below the tops of the shoulders. > >Roger >+++Maybe a little too low, but where do you measure from? From the bone in >the shoulder to the top of the bar is probably a hair over an inch with a >little forward lean thrown in. But then again its a big, fat bar and I am >relatively small (short, not munchkin ;-) ). I think I'll try to raise the >bar up a little more and see if that helps. Being new, it and its twin >sister are the only bars in the gym which are currently straight. I think >that's worth a little adaptatation on my part. > > >Dean *****That and the fact that it is the same type of bar you will probably be using in a lot of meets. I believe the measurement is from the top of the muscle in the delt. Although I really don't know how they enforce this. Jason could be more precise than I. Also that bar will be straight forever. Our YMCA bought one when they were just on the market...around 1980....it is still straight to this day, after almost 20 years of commercial use and abuse. Roger Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 12:05:17 -0400 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: box squat form Bruce, don't rock back. Keep your center of gravity over the heels at all times. The "relax the hips" at the bottom is deceiving because you aren't really "relaxing." Try this, get on a leg press machine and take a shoulder width stance. Roll (figuratively, keep ankles straight) onto the outer edge of your feet (you should feel your groin open up when you do this...maintain that sensation) and descend. On the descent keep your knees out to the sides and your back flat. Allow your knees to come past your torso on the sides. In order to do this you have to "relax" your hips, IMO this is what Louie is talking about. I do these for that specific purpose of feeling the hips stretch in that nice tight power alignment. I find it very easy to mimc once I go to the true squat, because I know exactly what I am searching for and the hips are active so I can feel them working. wade Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1999 08:43:53 -0400 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: question about squatting >>> Tarik Fehmi 09/14/99 08:32PM >>> I have a problem with my knees buckling toward each other when I squat (more so on front squat than anything). Has anyone had this problem and fixed it and if so which assitance exercises did you use to fix the problem? your hips are weak...try really wide stance sumo deadlifts and concentrate on keeping your knees out to the sides. Done wonders for my hip strength and flexibility. - -wade Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:39:19 -0400 From: "Tim & Christa Ramey" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Squat Question (Long) First, I apologize for the lateness of this, I'm still catching up after being too busy for several days. I had this problem about 6 months ago. Couldn't bench heavy, spent a lot of time in agony after squats. I did 2 things that have completely eliminated the problem for me. 1. I make sure that the bar rests directly on top of my rear delts now, not on the back of them. 2. I stretch my shoulders before squatting. I simulate my hands holding the bar and stretch everything back behind my shoulders using the power rack or the bar. Problem solved. Tim Ramey > > Well, when I got up to 405 and tried to walk it out, my elbow started to > remind me (forcefully) that it wasn't feeling so good. I racked the weight > without trying it. Then, I decided to say screw it, took the bar in a high > bar (OL) position and walked it out. No elbow pain at all! > > =>The elbow pain thing is a tough one...I have been screwing around with this for a good year and a half. What I have done lately that has worked better than any other thing to date is this....make sure you do some sort of curling motion. Not necessarily super heavy (bi's get worked doing other things too), but get some higher rep "pump" work. Glucosomine Sulfate, 1.5 Grams a day...at least. Icy Hot before I squat and bench...a little on the elbows and knees (just don't get it into the inside crack of the joint...tender skin and you'll regret it). Finally, and this may be the biggest one, how are you gripping the bar when you squat? Do you actually grip it or do you use a false grip? I switched to actually gripping the bar and it has helped tremendously Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 21:06:42 EDT From: PWRFRK650@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: Sitting back in the squat = falling on my ass In a message dated 9/21/99 5:39:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JBL@rubicon.no writes: << I mentioned earlier that I'm in the process of learning how to power squat (I have a background as an olympic lifter). I'm using a low bar position and I'm trying to sit back as much as possible to get my shins as close to vertical as possible. I'm using flat shoes, a fairly wide stance, push the knees out, butt back, and I''m trying to roll onto the outside of my foot. The problem is I'm losing my balance and I'm almost falling backwards. If I use the same style with weightlifting shoes I seem to be able to sit back just as much, but I have better balance. Of course It could be that I *think* I'm still doing the same power style when I use weightlifting shoes, but I'm really doing a combination of a power/olympic squat... What can I do about this? Try pointing toes outward. I Cant roll onto the outside of my feet cause the same thing happens to me. If I turn my toes out on 45 decree this helps me push my knees out and sit back... Give it a try. Chris Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 20:53:30 -0400 From: "Michael W. Brookman, Jr" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Sitting back in the squat = falling on my ass Do box squats, after a while it becomes second nature. Mike Brookman Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 13:27:38 EDT From: FOURRANGES@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: falling backwards in squat I worked up to a max single yesterday, and at the bottom of the squat I fell backwards and lost the lift. Can someone PLEASE HELP ME to find out what weakness(es) this is attributed to and to help me adjust my special exercise day/assistance exercises accordingly. Ive never been able to get ANYONE on strength list to answer any of my questions, so someone please respond! Need help, Dave Hicks Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 13:34:35 EDT From: PWRFRK650@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: falling backwards in squat Dave, Its hard to say what your problem is. It sounds more like form then weekness.. All i can tell yu is this. Stop going heavy till your form gets better and start doing box squats. The box will help you sit back and help yur form. Chris Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 12:24:01 -0600 From: "Sean \"Andy\" Anderson" Subject: Re: Strength_List: falling backwards in squat Howdy Dave! Here comes an answer . . . or rather an answer coupled with a question. The question is: what is your foot placement and what sorts of shoes/boots are you using? According to the seminar I attended given by Louie Simmons and the Westside barbell Club last July 1998 they beleived that a WIDE STANCE would give you better stability. Following their advice I went from a narrow stance - in whcih I once fell backwards with 455 lbs on my back - to a wide stance which I found gave me more stability and better squatting form. They also were "down" on the high heeled or thick soles shoes and boots favored by many. Both Louie Simmons and Mel Siff beleive it si better to use flat soled shoes with thin soles - I use wrestling shoes not only for deadlift but also for squating and benching. I used to use thick heeled special squatting boots but set them aside and my squat went up and stability was no problem. If you intersted in the notes I took of the Simmons Seminar go to , Andy Anderson Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 14:54:13 EDT From: Mcsiff@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: FALLING IN SQUAT On 9/26/99, andesean@isu.edu writes: << Both Louie Simmons and Mel Siff beleive it is better to use flat soled shoes with thin soles - I use wrestling shoes not only for deadlift but also for squating and benching>> ***Let me also add, whatever thickness of heel you are wearing, it is even more important, especially for novices who may be beginning with available apparatus, that your shoes should not have a soft, shock-absorbing type of sole as is common in running and aerobics. Stability of surface with the very heavy loads used in lifting is vital and you don't want shoe compressor wobbling to cause a sudden shift in body position during the lifts. You should also train in the same shoes that you are going to compete in or at least for a few weeks before you compete. One of the only serious accidents I ever had in Olympic weightlifting was when my shoe slipped on baby powder left on the platform by a preceding lifter - I slipped into full ballet-style splits with about 330lbs overhead during the final lockout phase of my second jerk and I was out of lifting for many months. I seriously ruptured the adductor magnus muscle of my left thigh and lost my best ever chance at selection for our national team. Need I say anymore why I am totally neurotic about proper footwear and platform conditions nowadays? One needs one unnecessary accident to ruin one's sporting career - remember that - just one accident in ten thousand lifts - not one every workout and that could be the end of everything that you have worked for. Of course, some accidents cannot be prevented, but do everything you can do to minimise the risks by learning exemplary technique, avoiding overtraining, enhancing reactive skills and agility (to enable you to handle quickly any unforeseen circumstances) and avoiding any unnecessary risks. Dr Mel C Siff mcsiff@aol.com Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 13:06:26 -0600 From: "Sean \"Andy\" Anderson" Subject: Re: Strength_List: falling backwards in squat Dave: I and my training partners follow Westside methods but differ from them in one respect . . . whereas Louie and the Westside BB Club use box squats all the time we use box squats as an assistance exercise only. I do think that relying too much on the box squats will affect your form squatting form for the worse if, as you say, you begin to rely on the box being there. Try lower box squats like you suggested and get someone to spot your box-less squatting form. I think Chrus Taylor's point is also well taken that you should lower your squatting weights and work on correct form and then go back up again. Let me throw in another two cents' worth . . . in order to avoid the one on tenthousand lifting accident that could ruin all your hard work and career , , , baby powder on platform, miserable shoes, overtraining, carelessness, fatigue etc . . . also BEWARE OF THE INCOMPETENT SPOTTERS/LOADERS! . . . especially at meets being held for the first time where no one has had much direct meet experience. Make a quick visible check of the loading to make sure both sides look the same. Also if there are spotters whom you know and trust try to have them on the platform for your lifts. When I get ready to bench if I'm uncertain about the spotters I give them a little lecture about both fo them catching the barbell at the same time if I fail . . . almost injured my lef should when the spotter on the right grabbing my failing 355 lbs and the spotter on the left . . . stood there day-dreaming! Again anothe two cents. Andy Anderson Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 15:28:33 EDT From: Mcsiff@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: FALLING IN SQUAT & SKILL On 9/26/99, Dave Hicks wrote: <> ***Frequent use of partial range or supplementary lifting movements, especially too close to competition time, can alter the nervous system central computer control programs so that one's lifting pattern in competition can be detrimentally altered. So, if this was the case with your box squatting, then your theory may well be correct. Training which produces altered nervous control generally is more harmful to progress and safety than the wearing of shoes which make very slight changes to starting position, unless the shoes also produce altered neural control. It is also important to remember that regular training with lighter loads does not reinforce the correct technique for competing with maximal loads, since it is well known that technique used with light and heavy loads is not the same. This is yet another reason to be very cautious of using high intensity training with loads that are significantly lighter than one's 1RM or of devoting too much time to light 'speed' training. Technique in all skilled movements in sport, be it a lift, a jump, a pole vault or a throw changes as one's efforts have to increase to cope with greater demands. This is one of the great challenges in teaching technical skills in such sports - one has to start teaching technique with light loads among novices and for all lifters one cannot train at competitive maximum all the time, so what does one do? If you have some technical problem, are you trying to solve it with lighter loads, speed training or some other non-maximal method? Do you have a mental block with heavy loads, which leads to changes in your lifting technique? Do you all have strategies to cope with these tricky situations? If not, think about devising some now! Dr Mel C Siff mcsiff@aol.com Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 17:23:47 EDT From: POWERJIMM@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: falling backwards in squat this may be a flexability problem. work with a lower box. Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 18:55:43 -0400 From: "Jim Hinze" Subject: RE: Strength_List: falling backwards in squat Off hand, I'd say your lower back gave out and/or you just sat back too far and lost your balance. Jim Hinze Date: Mon, 27 Sep 1999 01:55:41 GMT From: "Wes Jones" Subject: Re: Strength_List: falling backwards in squat I had the same problem with box squats. I would occassionally loose my balance on the box and fall backward or I loose my balance coming up and take a stutter step forward. Dave Tate gave me a lot of help diagnosing my problem. His diagnosis was that I had weak hips. Since then I've been doing kneeling squats, wide stance pull throughs and box squatting with a slightly higher box (14"),(the balance problem happens with the lower box) watching my form- taking a much wider stance than previously and emphasizing pushing my knees out and pushing on the sides of my feet on the way up and keeping my shoulders back, my back arched. Wes Jones Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 15:15:21 -0700 From: Deepsquatter Subject: Re: Strength_List: downside to training partner Tom O'Brien wrote: > > Well, I found the downside to haing my wife train with me. We did speed > squats last night. She took 30 minutes to figure out a reasonable Tom, It's a slow process at first but here's a method Louie shows on the squat secrets tape. You take a box.....and a bunch of 1/2 thick boards. Stack the boards on the box. Have her squat to the boards. When you are satisfied that she is sitting back and her form is good, you then remove one board. It may take several weeks for her to get to a 'below-parallel' box but when she gets there she will be fine. There is a tendency for people to sit back for the first few boards but as they feel for the box they panic and just drop to the bottom. If this is occuring add a board or two back until she can do it right every time. Works well. I was able to teach a girl that had never squatted to squat using this in two sessions....another guy that was using a poor technique relearned his squat in a few weeks. Good luck and be patient...remember, this one you have to live with! :^) - -- Jason W. Burnell STRENGTH ONLINE: http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/ te: Sat, 23 Oct 1999 11:16:56 -0500 (CDT) From: nccozine@webtv.net (Noble Cozine) Subject: Fwd: RE: Strength_List: Box squats and hip strength Wade DO box squats!!!!!!! I've made a box out of 3/4 " plywood. Its 15 x13 x10 1/2. I framed it with 2x10s. Now for the workout... After warming up go to 50% of your squat max. then do 12 sets of 2 reps. Sit on the box relax yourhips then tighten your his and stand up. a little rocking motion is needed. Use the same momentum like you do in getting up out of a chair.You want to SIT BACK untill your shins are perpindicular to the floor.EXPLODE off the box. Now you might think that 50% is light. It is untill set # 5 or 6 then you become tired. I forgot to mention you only rest 45 seconnds to 1 min. between sets. By the time you get to set # 10 you'll be huffing and puffing. I call this my 15 min of HELL.!!!!After the 12th set you'll want to sit down for a while.. Try this type of trainning,you'll get to like it.(in a sick kind of way). Before the worlds I did 335x2x12 sets the last 6 sets I used green bands. What a workout.... Cozy Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:26:04 EST From: WestsideBB@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: Setting up the Squat In a message dated 11/11/1999 10:13:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, kbmusa@yahoo.com writes: << I was wondering if anyone had any good advice on setting up a meet attempt squat. I think I waste too much energy doing this. Any suggestions? Thanks, Kevin >> Kevin, I agree with Bob Mann -- you need to practice this during your workouts. Treat every single set as if it were a max attempt at a meet. I learned my technique from Kirk Karwoski. Kirk stressed taking as few steps as possible to set the weight up thereby devoting your energy to the actual lift. He also emphasized keeping your head up throughout the setup b/c if your head is down to start, you are doomed to be bent over throughout the lift. After unracking the weight, I drag my left foot straight back just enough to clear the racks. I then take one step with my right foot and it's set. Then one step with the left foot again, and I'm ready. Occasionally I'll have to make a minor adjustment once I've taken all my steps, but I've practiced it so much in training that it's usually a fluid movement. Stay strong, Matt Gary Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 14:34:18 -0500 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Squat Problem > A few weeks ago I started doing regular heavy squats > every week. Three weeks ago for some reason I reverted > to bodybuilding style squats dropping my butt straight down. > I didn't realize this is what I was doing until after the workout. > I was wondering why my strength was down (duh). Confirmation > was the next day when my quads were very sore. > > So the next week I concentrated on sitting back but I think > I ended up really arching my lower back and ended up > hurting it (not too bad though). I know it's possible to sit > back and have a flat back but as far as what my body wants > to do the two ideas are opposed to each other. Is there > anything I should do while squatting to correct this? What > mental pictures do you use? > > Thanks, > > Jeff Oien Jeff, Very similar to me in what you are describing. Try to suck in your bellybutton then scrunch your abs. Keep your glutes tight and tuck your butt a little under your pelvis...once you are tight like this then ease your hips back just a little until they start to break. Keep the tension in your abs! Once the hips start to break sit straight down...it will *almost* feel like you are caving your shoulders forward BUT, if your abs are still tight then you are keeping your back flat. Will be able to play with the sit back until your drop sits you back onto the hams/glutes. It is extremely mental and if you don't have the ab set I found it nigh impossible to find the groove. Just my .02 ___ - -wade of borg Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 21:36:17 -0500 From: "Dr. Michael Hartle" Subject: Strength_List: Transverse Abdominis - Stomach in/out >Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 02:14:06 GMT >From: "Wes Jones" >Subject: Re: Strength_List: stomach in? stomach out? > >Always push your stomach out. As far as it making your belly bigger, that's >really not a bad thing. the belly gives you a little bit of spring at the >bottom of the squat if its big enough. Also, a bigger belly will help >your bench by shortening your stroke length. > >Wes Jones I will have to disagree with Wes. It has been shown in research that by activating the Tranverse Abdominis (TA), it will also co-contract the pelvic floor and the multifidi muscles of the lower back, which will increase the stabilization of the spine, which is what you want to contract. In treating many PL'ers and weight trainers, the TA muscle is weak. Correspondingly, the aforementioned stabilizing muscles are also weak, pre-disposing the spine to degenerative processes. To activate this muscle, the belly button (as a frame of reference) needs to be drawn in hard. To feel this, place your fingers just medial (inside) to the sharp bony structure onthe front of your waist (your ASIS) and pull your belly button in. You will feel it contract. What I do when SQ/DL/BP and on other exercises, I pull my belly button in push down hard after that. That creates a fantastic intra-abdominal pressure (which you will feel pressure against your belt when you push down hard) that will make your trunk very rigid and protect your spine better. One of the problems I have with understanding the rationale with pushing your abs out is that it creates a flexion moment around your waist area in a sagittal plane. Why would you want to do this when pushing max weight? Talk about a recipe for disaster. You may not see this disaster for some time, as the degeneration will take a few to many years to accumulate. BTW, I mentioned this in a recent interview on me in PLUSA. We also train our rehab patients how to contract this TA as it increases dramatically the stabilization of their lower back. IMHO. Dr. Michael Hartle USA Powerlifting Webmaster, http://www.usapowerlifting.com USA Powerlifting Executive Committee Board Member Chairman, USA Powerlifting Sports Medicine Committee Webmaster, http://www.chiropower.com Date: Sun, 14 Nov 1999 22:41:35 -0700 From: Jeff L Fahrenbruch Subject: Re: Strength_List: Transverse Abdominis - Stomach in/out The stabilizing phenomena that Dr. Hartle speaking of is created by contraction of the TA and other associated structures" pulling" the thoracolumbar fascia tight to create an almost hydraulic effect on the attached structures. This thick fascial layer creates a "tent" over the posterior lumbar and thoracic musculature then wraps anteriorly to attach to the abdominal and pelvic structures. As a point of training knowledge, the lats also attach to the TLF. I also use this principle in training athletes and in the clinic for rehab purposes. Jeff L Fahrenbruch MPT CSCS Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:30:40 -0800 From: "Frank Cable" Subject: Strength_List: Squat depth and Hip tightness Shawn wrote: My training partner is having a hard time getting to parallel in the squat due to severe hip tightness. He feels as though his hips just lock as he descends deeper, thus preventing him from going down to a proper depth. The further apart his feet get the harder it is for him to get down. He can break parallel with his feet close(just beyond shoulder width). What are some ways to overcome hip tightness? Or should he just squat with his feet close together? Thanks for your help, Shawn >>>> Shawn, have him push his knees out really hard on the descent, and have him slide his butt back. He should also push his knees out on the ascent. Frank Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 13:16:57 EST From: "Jim Hinze" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Squat depth and Hip tightness Kieth gave me some great hints that have me squatting about 2" below now without a problem. 1. Practice squatting with your legs slightly wider than a competition squat, hold onto a door frame, corner of a powerrack, etc and squat to a depth that you can get to, then stand up. Each time, try to go a bit further... do three sets of 15 three times per week. 2. Order some jump stretch bands and do the stretching routine that they have in their packet three times per week. It does wonders in a really short time (3 weeks) Jim Hinze http://jhinze.dyndns.com Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:18:47 GMT From: "Wes Jones" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Squat depth and Hip tightness I used to have the same problem. Sled pulling- ankle dragging, box squats and the reverse hyper- holding my legs wider seems to have helped me a great deal. With box squats when I first started, I couldn't get down on the box with a wide stance. I kept my stance wide and elevated the box by putting a couple of 45 lb plates on top of the box. Over a period of about 1 month, I took the plates off and now I'm squatting wide on the box. I think that you're training partner should work to get wider because the strength gains with a wider stance will be much greater. He just needs to work his hips more. Wes Jones Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 15:24:20 -0800 From: Charles Staley Subject: Strength_List: Box Squat Alternative? This prompted me to offer a possible alternative to the box squat, which certainly presents more risk of axial compression than does the non-box version. I have done box squats myself, without injury, and of course many WSB devotees have also. Nevertheless, the potential injuries we're speaking of are not acute, but chronic, and may not present themselves until years later. So the fact that one can do heavy box squats for months or even years without noticeable trauma doesn't mean that degenerative changes aren't taking place. So, I do understand the concept of taking educated risks for the sake of sporting excellence, I think we always need to ask "Can we reduce that risk without compromising the results?" The supposed benefit of box squats is that it breaks the eccentric-concentric "chain" of movement, eliminating the usual assistance derived from the stretch-shortening cycle (interestingly, this pattern is rather opposite to the competitive squat in terms of dynamic coorespondance, but that's another post). This is achieved by 'shutting off" the hip extensors by contracting the hip flexors at the bottom of the movement. My proposed alternative: Devise a squatting station where two "tables" (one for each side) receive the barbell plates at the bottom of the squat. To avoid drastic load/unload contrast forces to the spine at the bottom, each "table" would be surfaced with some type of material (medium density rubber?) that would cushion the plates upon contact. In this way, as the lifter squats down, the load is gradually transferred to the tables, rather than suddenly, as would be the case if one used the support pins in a power rack to catch the bar. In my mind, this exercise would provide the same benefits as the "traditional" box squat without the same compressive characteristics which are presented by sitting down on a box with weight on the shoulders. An additional benefit would be the elimination of the possibility of becoming "stuck" at the bottom, and/or falling back down onto the box (as described above). Comments? Charles Staley Myo Dynamics (800) 519-2492 http://www.myodynamics.com Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 19:35:04 -0800 From: "Dave Tate" Subject: Strength_List: RE: Strength List: Box squat alternative? Squatting to pins is not a good alternative to the box squat for several reasons: 1. When you squat down to the pins the weight of the barbell is sitting on the pins so there is a total release of muscle tension; While on the box the weight is still on your shoulders so there is still tension on the body. The only thing you are supposed to relax on the box is your hip flexors. 2. When squatting to pins you will be less likely to sit back far enough. This will cause the squatter to sit down more so taking much of the tension of the hamstrings. A power lifting squat is about having great form, meaning sitting back. 3. It is almost impossible to maintain proper squatting posture when squatting down to pins. Your upper back will lose it tightness, and your lower back will lose its arch. I am assuming you are pausing on the pins. If you are not pausing on the pins, then you are going to just bounce the weight up. Also, if you bounce of the pins you lose the training effect of going from a static to dynamic. 4. Squatting of pins is much like dead lifting off pins. You will never keep the bar in the same grove as you would squatting in a contest. 5. There are some other reasons, but I feel this is enough "food for thought". Another important factor. Most of the people I see box squatting don't really have a good understanding of the movement. You do not bounce of the box or rock back then forward while sitting on the box. We have never had a back injury in our gym from box squatting, or any of the other exercises we do. Any exercise performed with bad form can be a high risk exercise. Subject: My Results From Super Squats From: Bob Andersen Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 22:59:48 -0700 For anyone who is interested, the following are results from a 6 week program of "Super Squats". I worked out an average of twice a week. My routine looked something like: 1 x 20 Squat 3 x 8 Bench 3 x 8 Row 2 x 8-10 Superset curl / skull crushers assorted accessories, such as calves, rotators, abs, done depending on my mood. I went up in weight for the squats by increments of 5 lbs (or 10 lbs occasionally) per workout. My last set this week was 70lbs greater than my beginning weight. I also added weight to the other exercises, but not on a consistent, incremental basis. My diet consisted of eating as much as I could, including having a protein shake in the middle of the night. Although this was discontinued half way through, since it became a pain to do. In retrospect, I could have been more exact in my diet, but I hate that shit. Prior to beginning the program, I was on an extended dieting mode, and on a Monday - chest / tris, Tue back / bis, Thurs legs, Fri Shoulder / Abs. There was definitely some stagnation setting in. This of course, impacted the results. Also, I was sick most of week 3, and only worked out once. Results: Gained 17lbs Chest up 1 inch Arms up almost .75 inch legs up 1 inch waist up 1.25 inch. Strength: I ended up squatting for 20 reps what I used to squat for 7 reps. While I gained some fat, I also made some nice LBM gains as well. I'm happy with the program, and will do it again once I forget the horror of the last 3 workouts. I was ready to rack the bar after 10 reps, each of the last three workouts. I started to fear workout day, and this is the reason I shortened what I planned to be a 8 week routine into a 6 week routine. Observations: I only experienced DOMS once, and that was during the week I only worked out once, due to a cold. During weeks 2 - 4, I experienced headaches that would begin right around rep 8 of the squats, and continue through the workout. Massage therapy took care of that, though. And not the nudge-nudge-wink-wink kinda massage therapy. In fact, making the beast with two backs also caused headaches. The book "Super Squats" suggests a caloric intake of 4500 k/cal per day. Trying to eat that much was 10 times harder than dieting. I'm going to take a week off, diet for the week off and the following week to take off a bit of the fat, and get going on a 5 x 5 4 day split routine. Damn, I miss deads and front squats. Bob Don Nguyen wrote in message news:383e249a.23381130@news-server... > Hi everyone I just popped down to the book store today and I stumbled > across some books on sports medicine. I was flicking through a few of > them, and the two that mentioned deep squatting both agreed that it > was bad for the knees. Now I know the general consensus on mfw seems > to be that deep squats are the best way to perform the exercise but I > was wondering if someone could provide me with some credible links to > show that deep squats are not detrimental to the knees. > > thanks very much, > > Don Chandler and Stone, "The Squat Exercise in Athletic Conditioning: A Review of the Literature". _Chiropractice Sports Medicine_ 6(3):105- (1992). Note that this is a literature review, which examines all research done in this area. Also, Chandler, Stone, and Wilson's earlier article, "The Effect of the Squat Exercise on Knee Stability". _Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise_ 21(3):299- (1989). Also, try a Medline search on squats and knees. Research has shown that Olympic lifters, who regularly squat to full depth with substantial weight, have much healthier knees relative to the general population. Krista -- ------------------------- http://krista.tico.com/weights.html mistresskrista@home.com Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 11:30:48 -0500 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Strength_List: Squats!! (succinct as usual) Hey all, Since it is a little slow today I will start a thread that has been my bane for a while. As you know I have been having a lot of difficulties getting myself straight (sorry for ALWAYS bringing that up...has kind of been my main priority). Well, the good news is I might be onto some really good things now. I had a great squat workout last night. Went up to 500 for 3 reps (first time I have repped 500 in 2 years) and they felt wonderful, moved well and I *know* I had at least 2-4 more reps in me...just staying a little conservative for the time being. So what is my point...well, I'll share the little tidbits that I implemented and hopefully they can be of use to someone. My biggest problem has been that I get too leaned over in the hole and when I drive to come out I have my COG too far forward and this causes the stress to be placed squarely on my lumbar and I wind up on my toes. I would emphasize sitting back but, this was really just compounding the problem. Solutions look like this... 1) Returned to heeled shoes. This was a MAJOR factor. Wes is long torso'd and has gone to the Chuck's, for his structure he can do that since he has a longer lever (torso) and can keep his butt back on the descent and ascent. I was really having a hard time getting my hips under me and firing the hams and glutes...basically it was all quads and lumbar (ouch!). 2) The groove. Really ties into the shoes with this...what I did (and I got this from Jim Hinze who got it from Danny DeFelice...thank you both, you don't know how much this helped!) was to not poke my butt back at the start. Rather, you sit back until you feel the weight on your heels then sit down. Wes does this but he can keep sitting back on the descent...that was part of the problem in that I tried to do this too and I can't with my shorter torso. Sooooo, I sit straight down (after getting on the heels), this puts the lion's share of work on my quads for the descent but, it also keeps my chest up. Once I hit depth I drive my hips and shoulders (through the bar at the shoulders) almost backwards at about a 60-70 degree angle. By doing this it gets the weight back over my heels (solidly!) and fires the hams and glutes real hard. In essence, I almost mimic the high hip start postion of the DL's coming out of the hole. It looks like I am leaning hard (which I kind of ! ! am) but, the lower back is solid, the chest is up, and the hips/glutes/hams are working to make the ascent happen. 3) I am not pushing into the belt at the start. I just get a tight feeling by sucking in air and getting my chest up. When I would push into the belt right from the start it would poke my butt back and I would go into this leaning squat that I *know* Jim Hinze can relate too. Great hip workout but, too much sheer on the lower back. Once I do the little drive out of the hole I can drive into the belt to stabilize the back for the increased load it takes on the ascent. As I am coming up I lean a little more than I do on the descent. 4) Upper back work. I have been doing my shrugs again and the payoff has been instantaneous (sp?). Part of what the problem was is that my upper back was weak and I would cave my shoulder/chest over and this would cave the abs. With the increase in upper back strength I can keep my "arch" and this allows me to maintain tension in my abs which in turn makes the hams and glutes manipulate the torso. The result was a DRAMATIC change in my squats! I think Wes was as surprised as I was when I kept adding weight and ripping off reps. The main power movers are there but, I have been unable to connect them (upper and lower body that is). This little change in my motion is very similar to what I used 3+ years ago and I could rep with 635, at 20lbs lighter bodyweight!!! The size has come mostly in my hip girdle too, so I know the strength is there but, applying it has been the challenge. The actual motion of the squat is goofy looking and Wes made the comment to stay tight (since once I reversed my hips shot back) but, in actuality what happens is they do shoot back but, to the point they need to be in for that "sit back" squat the utilizes the hams and glutes. Does that make sense? It is hard to describe in words but, the motion feels right and powerlful. It looks like a dramatic change from descent to ascent because it is but, with my mechanics it works. If I utilize a really wide stance then I can sit down in the same groove I come up in but, it doesn't feel nearly as powerful and in a sense, kind of wastes the quad strength that I have accumulated from years of squatting in the narrower stance. My thought here is to continue to work weak points but, also take advantage of the strong points too...is that a sound philosophy? Anyway, sorry to ramble. I am just very excited to FINALLY see some progress with the actual application of the movement. I have been getting better but, it hasn't clicked enough to really see it work with the weight...last night it did. Will take it easy for a few more weeks then start looking to push a little for a May meet. Tentatively but, with as easy as those felt I am pretty confident that I have found a major chunk of the keys I have been looking for. Time will tell though.... Thanks letting me ramble! Good liftin' - -wade Home: silverback@psn.net Work: whanna@senate.state.mi.us Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 15:35:56 -0500 From: "Jim Hinze" Subject: RE: Strength_List: Squats!! (succinct as usual) Wade, All I can say is WOW. You are describing exactly what I feel now that my form changed. The only difference is I do not beleive I have an "adjustment" to the bar path on the ascent... you can judge better as I couldn't see myself. It feels like I drop straight down, then fire back up leading with my shoulders but the bar feels like it remains over my heels. I do have a slight lean at the bottom but I'm attributing that to the flat sole. I haven't tried it with any serious weight as of yet. It does sound like your in the same boat, built for a slightly narrower stance with a heel. I much like you now feel tight during the entire movement. Thinking back, I think I handle my air the same way, big breath at the start and abs pressing agains the belt at the bottom... I'm no expert, but I'm finding it suits my structure well and that's all that counts. Jim Hinze http://jhinze.dyndns.com http://www.ffa-mfw.com Southfield, MI