Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:55:47 -0500 From: Wade Hanna Subject: Squat style High bar squats vs. Powerlifting Squats. High bar squats will definately isolate the quads better. However, for maximal poundage in the squat you have to utilize more muscles than just the quads. I was a firm believer in Quad squatting and wasted a number of years trying to maximize my squat by strengthening just my quads (not to mention buying pants is a pain). Your hip/glute/hams are major factors in squatting big weight. You won't "feel" excessive soreness after heavy lifting like you will if you burn out a muscle in bodybuilding training regimes. The excessive soreness is actually detrimental. I read an article by Fred Hatfield (I think it was Fred) about excessive soreness. The soreness is actually micro-trauma to the muscle fiber and as a result it creates scar tissue on/in the muscle. After time this scar tissue inhibits the growth of the muscle. You can effectively stop any further growth by infesting the muscle fiber with scar tissue. I think that was the gist of it...some of the more learned members could expound on that if they saw fit. The issue also arises whether you are getting adequate recovery after such a beating on the muscle to cause excessive soreness. A better plan is to work the big compound motions with as many primary movers as possible to the point of knowing they have been worked. Slight soreness but, I think fatigued is a better description. The key to getting really strong is to maximize your recovery. Tearing down the muscle is the easy part...it is builiding it back up that gets difficult. This is the aspect of PL that is so hard because your involvement is not as direct as the motion training. You influence it by diet and rest periods. Don't fall into the Bodybuilding trap of "kill the muscle...then kill it again." This is counter productive to strength gains. Work the compound motions hard...train your weak links and get the hell out of the gym. Look on Deepsquatters page at Eddy Coan's workouts. they are simple and short. Doug Furnas in an article stated he used to train two days a week. He was one of the elite PL'ers and he got sufficient work in only two training session. Anomaly? maybe but, maybe he was on to something too? Initially it is better to err on the side of "too little" than "too much." Too much causes backslides in gains...too little gives you an idea of what you can handle then increase from there. HTH and good liftin' -Wade whanna@senate.state.mi.us Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 13:35:22 -0500 From: Lorne Goldenberg Subject: Squats From: Keith Hobman >All this talk about squats and heel inserts has got me wondering. I use >a lot of forward lean in my squats. I work the abs hard, move the legs out >wide, work at keeping the knees out, etc., but to break below parallel I >have to lean. It's the only way I can keep the bar over my feet. > >When I drop to just parallel I also bring my knees forward. I'm not sure >if I go to 11 degrees or not. My question is - how can you prevent this? Keith, The reason you are bringing your knees forward to achieve a parallel position is a lack of flexability. If you cannot lower your hips far enough the main problem may be tight hamstrings, but it also may be a tight rectus femoris. This muscle crosses the hip joint in the front and if it is short and tight, it will inhibit how deep you may go. Having your knees move forward to a point, will place more emphasis on the vastus medialis. There is nothing wrong with this but depending how far you are going you may be imposing too much sheer force on you knees. Should I even worry about it? I have to get the thigh and butt down to a certain level. Aren't my body mechanics (lean and shin angle) going to automatically follow a path which allows that bar to stay over my feet? No, your brain is telling your body to get down as low as possible. The muscles will follow a the path of least resistance. Hence my previous comments about flexibility. Lorne Goldenberg www.strengthtek.com Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:53:22 EST From: Namgawd@AOL.COM Subject: Squat ------------------------------------------- In a message dated 98-01-17 00:16:38 EST, you write: << All this talk about squats and heel inserts has got me wondering. I use a lot of forward lean in my squats. I work the abs hard, move the legs out wide, work at keeping the knees out, etc., but to break below parallel I have to lean. It's the only way I can keep the bar over my feet. When I drop to just parallel I also bring my knees forward. I'm not sure if I go to 11 degrees or not. My question is - how can you prevent this? Should I even worry about it? I have to get the thigh and butt down to a certain level. Aren't my body mechanics (lean and shin angle) going to automatically follow a path which allows that bar to stay over my feet? >> Keith, your forward lean is a function of how low you carry the bar on your back. The lower the bar, the greater the lean. Typically, lifters' knees will shift forward if the lift is initiated with the knees. Try to unlock your hips (push your butt back) first and sit back before you bend your knees and that should take care of it. Dan Wagman Subject: Re: breathing squats From: JohnC10303 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:59:14 -0800 "You pick a weight you can do ten reps with," the gym owner said, "and then you do twenty reps with it." This quote (from "The complete Keys to Progress" by John McCallum; IronMind Enterprises, 1993) has been used as the stock description of breathing squat routines. It is worth remembering that this description applies only to HEAVY breathing squats, which may be inapropriate for most lifters to jump into without preparation. Stuart McRobert, Ed Howell and others have pointed that starting at this level will leave little room for progression and tend to burn you out. It is worth remember that Peary Rader, one of the poster kids for high rep squats, STARTED at 35 lbs. for ten reps before progressing to the 300 lbs./20 reps over a year or more. Roger Eells and others recommended high rep breathing squats (up to 40 or 50) with no more than your own bodyweight on the bar and starting with considerably less. If you start with maybe half you bodyweight, take at least three huge breaths before each rep, descend with your lungs full and blow out as you pass the sticking point you will know you've been working by the end of the set! From there it should be reasonable to progress by 5 to 10 pound jumps to the mega- heavy level. I am still on my way. Even "Keys to Progress" has many recommendations for lighter squats. In the article "The Case for the Breathing Squat" (pp. 259-63) he outlines a programm like this: Starting with the bare bar (45lbs.) 2 sets of 10 each (alternating) press behind neck and curls; followed by 25 squats "...you're going going to do twenty-five of those. Breathe three times between each rep of the first ten, six times between each rep of the second ten, and ten times between each rep of the last five. And the first breath I see you take that isn't the deepest you can do I'm to kick your head in." 25 breathing pullovers, and then another round of squats and pullovers. Nowadays the press behind neck is considered dicey for the rotator cuff, and curls are for wimps, but if you substituted dips and chins or military presses and rows you'd have a solid starting routine. John Coffin Marshall Veach writes: > I have had some problems with my lower back in the past year - I strained > the muscles in a minor car accident ... and now they seem to be weak/tight > often ... (for example, if after running I sit indian style on a floor for > a few minutes, I am likely to feel it in the lower back for the next few > days) ... anyway, I am posting to not ask about the back per se ... but to > ask what people with lower back problems use as an alternative to > squats and deadlifts ... > Everything I have read indicates that these two excercises are the most > important full-body excercises one can do ... are there any alternatives > which have their advantages but do not strain the lower back ? I had a similar problem. I think it's best you avoid running (and squats/deadlifts for that matter) until youre back has completely healed. As long as it bothers you, you won't be able to strengthen it and it will remain a weak link. Once you've got rid of the problem, use controlled hyperextensions to strengthen it and be extra careful when you do sqauts or deads: For squats, you can try to do them SuperSlow style. The sticking point makes it very hard but after a while they truly feel as safe as leg presses but more productive. If you love piling plates on the bar, your ego will cartainly suffer, though! As for deadlifts, try using dumbbells. Start the movement with your hands close to your sides, which I find less stressful for the lower back as the standard version. If this doesn't work there are special devices like Zane's Leg Blaster or the Hip Belt (sold by Ironmind) which may help. I haven't tried them but if you're interested you'll find ads for them in Ironman magazine. Good luck! -- Manuel http://www.ikarios.com (Bodybuilding site in French/en francais) Marshall Veach wrote: > Everything I have read indicates that these two excercises are the most > important full-body excercises one can do ... are there any alternatives > which have their advantages but do not strain the lower back ? Immaculate form and slow, slow rep tempo (eg SSEG: ten seconds eccentric, ten seconds concentric, >3 rep sets). No more than three sets per session, no less than five days rest between sessions. Most definitely NOT (I repeat, NOT) leg press or smith machine squats. -- Adam Fahy afahy@oitunix.oit.umass.edu > >Actually, you can use the box squats to teach proper form to newbies. Start >out by obtaining several 5/8" boards and put them on top of the box. Have the >person squat to the box using a light to medium weight. When you are satisfied >with their form........remove a board and repeat. Oh, and make sure they pause >on the box without slamming down on it. > > Although Jason probably disagrees with me on more than a few occasions and is just to polite to trash me, this is the one of the few where I disagree with him. I would avoid these at all costs. While they may make great training aids, it will only take ONE mistake to destroy the entire rest of your life. It is not worth it. Maybe a string tied sideways in the power cage, a paper bag under ye old ass, a long chain attached to your nipples and the upper supports... anything but a spine crushing bench or stool. Rob Martyn wrote in article <35111933.68E6@hm.com>... > Powdered TOAST Man wrote: > > > > Hey everyone, > > I seem to have constant paranoia as to whether I'm doing my squats > > properly or not (deep enough, knees bent right, hip bent right, etc). > > I've had an idea as to how to get my depth right. > > > > How about squatting with a bench under one's ass, set to the right > > height so that when your ass just touches, you are low enough (thighs just > > below parallell). Actually, perhaps some sort of box so that I could nudge > > it out of the way quickly if I were to bail. > > > > Not a bad idea. You're not the first to do box squats. Remember though > not to sit on the bench but to keep your back and gluts tight. > > Martyn Two words: spinal compression. Don't do it. The other day I saw a rather strange thing: the bar in the cage was loaded up with 3 plates, and was resting on the safety bars which were set about 4 1/2 feet off the ground. This struck me as very odd and I couldn't figure out what this was for. So I hung around to watch. Eventually the squatter returned. He was about 6' tall or so. He walked under the bar, got it on his back and began squatting, but his reps consisted of the short distance from him standing erect down to the safety bars about 12 inches below his standing position. And every time he hit the "bottom" of the rep, the barbell smashed onto the safety bars. I can only imagine that every vertebrae in this man's body was alternately plotting his death or screaming in sheer terror. Anyway, to figure out if you're doing it right. Try this. Just take the bar and stand sideways to the mirror. Squat till you're at the desired depth. Do it a few times so you remember how it feels. Then use that memory when squatting for real. Or, have a friend stand to your side and tell you whether or not you're going deep enough. If your ass hits your heels, you're probably ok. :) Krista On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:52:34 -0500, John Wash wrote: > > >Powdered TOAST Man wrote: > >> Hey everyone, >> I seem to have constant paranoia as to whether I'm doing my squats >> properly or not (deep enough, knees bent right, hip bent right, etc). >> I've had an idea as to how to get my depth right. >> >> How about squatting with a bench under one's ass, set to the right >> height so that when your ass just touches, you are low enough (thighs just >> below parallell). > >Very very very very very bad idea. > >You're begging for a serious injury, IMHO. > >Just put your ass almost to the ground and stand up. Works for me. For powerlifters it is a good exercise and is done so that you go to just below parallel, stop the momentum and then explode off the bow with as much acceleration as possible. It is done with weight in the range of 50% - 60% of 1RM. If you are doing it just to get bigger/stronger then don't bother with the box. If the box is used, it should be with the lightest touch down possible. DO NOT support your weight on the box. Bob Mann-------http://www.escape.ca/~rmann http://www.escape.ca/~rmann/powerlinks.htm Powdered TOAST Man wrote: > How about squatting with a bench under one's ass, set to the right > height so that when your ass just touches, you are low enough (thighs just > below parallell). Actually, perhaps some sort of box so that I could nudge > it out of the way quickly if I were to bail. Fine, if you want to end up in your own portable motorised chair for the rest of your life from crushing the fuc out of your spine as in excess of 100 kilos across your shoulders truncates your spine by several inches as gravity pulls it down toawards the bench. Some people say that you only just touch the bench. I ask you this. What happens when you fail in your last rep? You you trust your spotter that much, assuming s/he can get in behind you, were you have put a bench? Just learn to squat properly, and 'feel' the squat. Adam P. R. Taylor Department of Electrical and Electronic Engineering University of Canterbury Christchurch NEW ZEALAND Email: apt18@elec._DIE_SPAMMER_DIE_.canterbury.ac.nz On 19 Mar 1998 12:20:48 GMT, s3036712@mpce.mq.edu.au (Powdered TOAST Man) wrote: >Hey everyone, > > How about squatting with a bench under one's ass, Never, never do this. NEVER! While chances are that nothing will happen, IF. Just think, what IF!? Take a paper grocery bag if you have to have something to let you know you have reach the right depth and go down far enough to feel it, or hear it crinkle. Anything that isnt going to ruin the rest of your life by making one mistake. But not a bench or stool. This is the one of only two times I have ever corrected some one in the gym on doing a bad exercise. take care. Rob From: griffin@u.washington.edu (Thomas Griffin) Subject: Re: Doing squats with a bench under your ass. Date: 21 Mar 1998 15:44:23 GMT In article <35139b72.12595354@news.idt.net>, Rob & Stef wrote: > >Although Jason probably disagrees with me on more than a few occasions >and is just to polite to trash me, this is the one of the few where I >disagree with him. I would avoid these at all costs. While they may >make great training aids, it will only take ONE mistake to destroy the >entire rest of your life. It is not worth it. Maybe a string tied >sideways in the power cage, a paper bag under ye old ass, a long chain >attached to your nipples and the upper supports... anything but a >spine crushing bench or stool. > >Rob I have to agree that box squats can be very dangerous if not done correctly. At one gym I've visited they use surgical tubing for lifters to test squat depth. They string it across the power rack so that when the lifter's butt hits the tubing, he/she is at or below parallel. Should work well for those who lift alone at home or can't find a decent spotter. -- Tom Griffin, University of Washington E-mail: griffin@u.washington.edu HOME PAGE http://weber.u.washington.edu/~griffin >>>>>20 years of school and then they put ya on the day shift<<<<< Subject: Re: Inflexible Squats? From: "Kane McIntosh" Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:57:16 -0800 Raynham, Mike wrote: >> Secondly, he seems to have great difficulty doing squats. The problem is that when he starts to bend his legs, his heels raise off the floor, leaving him balancing on his toes - obviously not the desired position! Apparently when he tries stretching exercises to 'lengthen' whatever it is that is causing the restriction, he experiences great pain in his hips - weird, but true. I consider myself quite knowledgeable about the human body, its muscles, tendons etc, but this one is beyond me. Any suggestions of how this can be resolved (other than getting a different training partner...)? << Usually, in my experience, this type of problem can be attributed to tight calf muscles. There are other muscles involved but try this first. I used to run into the same problem when doing deadlifts. What you can try is stretching out the calves a lot (Either using the calf raise machine or other exercises) and then trying the exercise again. Go for 4 sets of 20-30 seconds on the calf raise machine, just letting the weight stretch out the calf (In the lowered position). If that fixes your problem then great...you know it was the calves. Another thing to watch for is how far the bar is traveling in front of the body. This shifts the center of balance and results in the person leaning forward on the toes. Kane --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- Kane McIntosh University of Arizona Subject: Re: squats and stretching From: Rosalind Carey Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:57:36 -0800 Mike, tell your friend to try stretching his calves. I have the same problem you describe him as having--not being able to keep feet flat while squatting--and I thought for a long time it was tighness in the hams, glutes. But then someone suggested it was my calves, and I tried stretching them and it made a big, immediate difference. Stretching the glutes/hams is probably useful too, but it didn't make a difference for me that stretching the calves did. (I stretch them on the standing calf: just stand there and let the stack slowly press your heels down. Do it a couple of times.) Subject: Re: Inflexible Squats? From: Loren Chiu Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 06:11:55 -0800 When the heels raise off the ground, tight calves (gastroc and soleus muscles), hamstrings, and quads are the general suspects. The best stretch to increase range of motion (ROM) is the squat itself. Perform 1-3 warmup sets for 4-5 reps, and on the last rep of each set, stay in the bottom position. Try to settle into a deeper stretch as you do this. To increase ROM a stretch should be performed for 30 seconds. Alternative stretches that should also be performed are: Soleus- Using the seated calf raise machine, allow the heels to drop below the toes, and use a similar protocol to the squat stretch. Gastroc- Same as soleus but using the standing calf raise machine Hamstrings- Using a back extension bench (preferably an angled as opposed to flat version), set yourself up as if you were to do back extensions. Make sure that your pelvis is high enough on the padding so to allow proper hip flexion. Again, settle into the bottom position and allow the hamstrings to stretch. Quads (also hip flexors)- Find a bench/object that is slightly shorter then your glutes. Standing about 1.5-2 feet away from the bench and facing away from it, bring one foot up so it rests on the bench. Adjust your distance from the bench to provide maximum stretch. Remember, stretching itself is not a warmup. Perform cardio to warmup before stretching, and if possible, stretch during and after the workout. Loren Chiu Subject: Re: Squats and lower back arch? From: Loren Chiu Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:58:46 -0800 Cory Simon wrote: > > Does anyone have any suggestions for someone who has an extremely large > lower back arch when squatting? A guy was trying to give me tips to > prevent my back from arching. He told me to look up at the ceiling rather > than look forward. It didn't help. In fact, he told me that it looked > scary how much my back was arched. Should I just do leg press rather than > squat? A number of factors could be involved in excessive arch in the lower back. First, a visit to a chiropractor will determine if there is a spinal problem. Barring this, it is likely due to a) poor motor control and b) muscle imbalances. The motor control can be rectified by learning to squat properly. Without using weights, perform squats with as straight a back as possible. Place a box (or other object with a flat vertical surface) in front of your feet. This will ensure that your knees do not travel too far forward. Squat down only as far as you can until your knees touch the box. Over the next few weeks, try to squat lower and lower until you can take your ass to the ground. The muscle imbalances most likely present are tight hip flexors/weak lower abdominals and tight erector spinae muscles. To stretch the erector spinae muscles, perform the cat/cow (or angry cat) stretch. This is done on the hands and knees. Round your back over and drop your shoulders as low as possible. Hold for 30 seconds, then return to the "neutral position" and hold for 30 seconds and repeat. To stretch the hip flexors, position yourself a couple feet in front of a bench or other object that has a horizontal surface slightly lower than your glutes. Facing away from the bench, place one foot on the bench. You can bend your other knee as needed until you stretch the hip flexors. Do not lean forward. Hold for 30 seconds and repeat with the other leg. To strengthen the lower abs, you can perform pelvic tilts, reverse crunches (preferably on a swiss ball), etc. Loren Chiu In article , Manchu Kwock wrote: >I have repeatedly tried to do squats the "regular" way and find that >either I am pressuring my back or my knees are going beyond my toes. >Instead, I do a form of squats where I wrap a towel around a pole lean >back and do a deep squat. I find this keeps pressure off my back and >knees. My question is; can I add weight to a backpack and wear it while >performing this exercise without placing too much stress on my back? Would >it perhaps be better to wear the backpack in the front (around my >chest/stomach? Thanks for any comments/suggestions... > >Age. What is the "regular" way you're thinking of? Many different variations exist. The "typical" back squat involves starting from a standing position with the bar positioned over the traps (on the upper back), bending at the hips and knees while keeping the back in a neutral (neither flexed forward nor arched) position, and lowering till the thighs are approximately parallel to the floor (knees bent about 90 degrees or slightly more, weight in the heels, knees not extending beyond the toes). This involves a stimulus not only to the quads and glutes and hamstrings, but to all the stabilizing muscles as well that help keep you upright and properly positioned during the lift. The inability to execute the exercise could be a weakness at any point in this chain. Most often the best bet is to simply lower the weight to an amount that you can do several repetitions in good form with (this might involve starting with nothing other than your own body weight). In the beginning you might not get much benefit for the legs, but the torso stabilizers will receive the bulk of the conditioning. Eventually you'll get to the point where you can stabilize enough weight that you can challenge the legs. In the meantime do some squats and a couple of sets on the leg press machine (or leg curls and knee extensions) to strengthen the legs until the rest of your body can support enough weight to squat properly and challenge the legs. larry... -- The more you know, the more you know. -- Me Manchu Kwock wrote in article ... > I have repeatedly tried to do squats the "regular" way and find that > either I am pressuring my back or my knees are going beyond my toes. > Instead, I do a form of squats where I wrap a towel around a pole lean > back and do a deep squat. I find this keeps pressure off my back and > knees. My question is; can I add weight to a backpack and wear it while > performing this exercise without placing too much stress on my back? Would > it perhaps be better to wear the backpack in the front (around my > chest/stomach? Thanks for any comments/suggestions... > > Age. > You can do both. There are a lot of ways to skin a cat wrt the squat. The most important thing to consider is proper form. It is difficult to get it if your weight is too heavy. I started by just using my body weight and doing it in front of a mirror. Done correctly, it feels very odd at first. It feels as if you are trying to sit in a chair that's not there. Once you have the hang of it, you can do plenty of variations. At the moment I'm trying to master the one-legged squat which involves one leg bent behind me and elevated slightly. This takes a surprising amount of balance. You can try front squats, which involve keeping the bar (or weight in a backpack) in front of you (this emphasizes the quads). You can try dumbbell squats, where you hold a pair of dbs at your side. You can vary the width of your stance. Another thing to do for successful squats is make sure you have a strong lower back and abdominal column. Believe it or not, it's very important. So be sure to add lower back and ab work to your routine (if you haven't already). At any rate, don't feel bad about having difficulty with squats. They're damn hard to do right, and there's no shame in starting slow to learn them properly. Krista Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:43:50 -0500 From: Lyle McDonald Subject: Re: Squat: knees together ------------------------------------------- >Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:54:31 +0000 >From: Timothy Bolt >Subject: Squats: knees coming togther > >------------------------------------------- >After reading this thread I think it is worth bring the list my >problem: Squats. > >I find that anywhere above double body weight raw (suit and >wrapless) squatting I cannot help but let my knees come in. I try >pulling them out, but then I feel weak and unable to complete the >squat. The problem scares me a bit with all the discussion of >imbalances and joint stress. > >Is it worth trying to use the ball between legs when squatting? >What assistance exercises might help? Abductors / adductors (I >forge5t which is which as I do not spend much time on the machines >:-) The squat with ball between knees would make your problem worse, not better. I've seen this happen (knees coming in on squats) for a few reasons. 1. Tight/too strong (relative to abductors) adductor (inner thigh) muscles. I train a bodybuilder who used to ride a lot of horses and she has to squeeze the hell out of hte horse to stay on. Solution: stretch inner thigh. 2. Weak abductors (incorrectly called inner thigh). This tends to couple with #1. I've seen it in women moreso than men. Even with light weights on leg press or squat, their knees shoot in. Invariably they were knock kneed as kids or whatever. Solution: strengthen abductors. Either use the outer thigh machine or go for something more functional, squats with a thigh cuff. Wrap a lifting belt around your knees so that it will stay up when you're in your normal squatting position. As you squat down, you will have to push out with your knees to keep the belt from falling down and this will strengthen the abductors in a much more functional pattern of squatting than the outer thigh machine. Basically this is the opposite of the ball btwn. knees squat. 3. Check your form. If your feet are really wide apart, your knees may drift in because they have to. I teach clients to consciously push their knees out over their toes when they squat. But a really wide sumo-squat stance will make this impossible. This is one of those places where the best way to demonstrate strength on the platform isn't the best way to develop it. Lyle McDonald, CSCS From: JBinkowski To: DOVERPOWER@aol.com Subject: Re: box squats,pause squats and resting on pins John, I put the body of your letter in here so I could / try to answer it as I go... You wrote: << What would be the advantage of box squats versus pause squats.>> Personally, I do both with variations on each that make them unique and important to my training. I think both are excellent off-season exercises and peaking assistance work. <> I see something in your statement that tells me you're not getting everything you can outta your pause squats... Pausing to pins.... NAH!!! This is my philosophy of how to effectively use pause squats (REMEMBER... I am not an expert nor do I claim this will work for everyone). I take a stance a little less than normal foot spacing; I usually don't use a belt either. Now, begin to descend while pushing the hips back and keeping the knees out. Sink all the way into the hole AND I AIN'T TALKIN' A FRICKIN INCH BELOW PARALLEL EITHER!!! (Sorry, I get irritated when people call that deep) Stay tight on the bottom and don't be bouncing around either. Hold it for A count, then explode out. Force the chest up, drive the hips forward, and don't let the knees track inward. To me, doing these builds such a solid foundation that even when I squat competition weights they still feel light in the bottom. For an example (and then I'll answer the next part) my last workout was 610 x 5 & 3 paused with a belt on. My belt only best squat is 710x3... I'm not going to calculate %'s for you BUT you get the picture. <> Spine, schmine... that's as big a myth as squatting is bad for your knees. It's all about the technique you use. I do box squats using a little bit of Louie Simmons but with my own modifications. Let me run down the technique first. Find a box approx. 2-4" lower than parallel. That way you are getting all the effects you should. I do my box squats using Louie's technique... wide stance, toes almost straight ahead, etc. By wide stance, I mean we have a Sutherland Power Rack and my feet abut the sides when I do boxes. After you get set, let me walk you through a proper box squat. You should be a little bit away from the box so that you'll have to sit way back. Begin descending by pushing the knees out, hips back, chest up, and try to keep your shins perpendicular to the ground. Now, as your ass touches the box (DO NOT SLAM DOWN ON IT... THAT CAUSES BACK PROBLEMS!!), relax your "cheeks" and hip flexors NOT your back; keep that tight and rigid... Remember, you should be somewhat upright, not completely erect though on the box. Almost immediately upon relaxation, contract your glutes and hip flexors forcing the hips forward and chest straight up while keep the knees forced outward. Now that is a proper box squat. You must be controlled in your descent on the box. Now, for the program, as you can note, I use a variety of stance widths with the Pause and Box squats... hardly ever do "squats" during the off-season. I incorporate both pauses and boxes in my workout. The boxes are done Louie style in that I'll do a series of doubles with a 60 second rest interval in between. I hope this dissertation is of use to you... If you have any further questions, just send another e-mail. Sincerely, John Binkowski Subject: Re: Bodybuilding Squats? From: Loren Chiu Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:26:42 -0700 RFS wrote: > > Ref 1765 issue of WeightsNet, Loren Chiu referred to the shearing force > on knees, due to Bodybuilding Squats (vs. Powerlifting Squats). For Loren, > (or anybody else), what is a Bodybuilding Squat? The type with heels > elevated? Bodybuilding squats are performed with the bar sitting high on the neck (below the 7 cervical vertebrae). Powerlifting squats have the bar sitting as low on the traps as rules allow. The bodybuilding version has significantly less hip flexion, ie the back remains more upright as compared to the powerlifting version where the squatter leans forward more. The powerlifting version places more stress on the lumbar spine. The bodybuilding version can be performed to parallel or below parallel, while the powerlifting version is generally not performed too far below parallel (less distance travelled allows for increased weight). The knees may extend past the front of the toes in the bodybuilding squat, which is where the increase in shearing force occurs relative to the poerlifting squat. The bodybuilding squat places more stress on the quads and less on the glutes. As is obvious, both versions have benefits and limitations. Loren Chiu Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 22:09:31 -0700 From: James Krieger Subject: Re: Front Squats When I first started doing front squats, I also experienced pain in the wrists. I found that I was racking the bar incorrectly. If you are racking the bar on your delts correctly, then you should be able to completely relax your hands, which will eliminate the wrist pain. I touch the bar with only two fingertips when I do front squats, with my hands angled outwards. My hands are just outside my shoulders. I can feel the bar against my windpipe, and get a slight "choking" feeling, but nothing significant to interfere with my sets. I concentrate very hard on keeping my elbows up. My elbows are pointed straight ahead, inside of my hands. Anyway, that's how I do them, and I don't get any wrist pain. My best advice is, if you can't relax your hands, then you're doing something wrong. If you can, and you're still getting wrist pain, then it's probably an inflexible wrist problem. James Krieger I posted something a couple of weeks ago, about how far you should let the squat bar slide down your back. Someone said, don't let it go down too far or you'll drop it. Really?? Here's the USPF rule: The top of the bar can't be more than one inch below the highest point on your deltoids. This is a lot farther down your back than you'd think. This rule exists because the farther down your back the better the leverage. Have someone watch the bar, while you slide it down your back. -- Dane I usually do squats first and then leg presses. Leg presses don't work your hams as much as the squat. Your back is taken out completely. I.E., The leg press is not a total body exercise. To do the squat safely, go into a full squat position and note where the pins in the rack are. Position the pins just below your low point. Remember, in the leg press you are only lifting about 70% of what's loaded on the machine (minus your body weight) this assumes you're using a 45 degree slope machine. The squat is the best choice for mass and power, although for body builders it may make your waist bigger. Vincent Vega wrote in message <6j6mts$qp9@everest.vol.it>... |I prefer to use leg press rather than squat because i feel it safer using |big weights and working out alone.... |Is squat better (i know that's a quite stupid question but i would like to |know the difference in terms of muscular groups interested and power, not |only strength or mass, gains) then leg press? | Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:52:58 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Comments On Proper Technique Requested ------------------------------------------- Daniel Parry wrote, > >I would greatly appreciate a discussion on proper form in both Squat and >Deadlift. >I try to follow Fred Hatfields guildelines, but still feel strain in my >lower back. > I'm not sure you're going to get the answer you are looking for Dan. The fact is that both the squat and the deadlift have major lower back involvement. The myth has gone around that the squat is a quad exercise, but especially in the power squat form this is simply not true. I've heard a person say that Ed Coan maintains the squat is primarily a lower back exercise. I can't vouch for this second-hand info, but certainly watching Ed squat leads me to believe there is some truth to this. I think you have to expect lower back involvement, the key is using proper form to eliminate lower back (spinal column) injury. I'm no Dr. or bio-mechanical specialist, but to me this means: 1. Squatting and deadlifting with the back locked into an 'arched' position. 2. Maintaining sufficient flexibility in the hamstrings, glutes and hips to allow an arched back in the deep squat position. (Something I really have to work on!) 3. Building strong lumbar muscles in order to prevent injury to the spinal column. 4. Working the abs with heavy weights and low reps in order to assist in locking the arched position. Ideally you would use a sumo deadlift and a very wide-legged, upright squat to minimize lower-back involvement - if this is your goal. If you are like me the goal is to lift as much as possible. My hips and knees simply cannot take the sumo and wide-legged technique. So I use a conventional deadlift and squat with the 4 key considerations listed above. I also do a lot of lower-back exercise. 1. Good Mornings (several variations) 2. Hyper-extensions 3. Reverse Huper-extensions 4. Sumo deadlift off a block 5. Stiff-legged deadlifts (done in Hatfields 'Keystone deadlift' style) To me the bottom line is if you want to be strong you have to have a strong back. Hope this helps. - Keith Hobman Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 12:32:31 -0300 From: "Denilson P. da Costa" Subject: Re: Comments On Proper Technique Requested Unracking: the way you take the bar off racks is the way you will squat. Squeeze shoulder blades in as max as possible, this will also push your chest out. Now with chest and abs held full of air , get under the bar but try to get it off rack with your chest really out and your trunk as upright as possible. If you do a hunched unrack, your form will be the same. Grip: A moderate to close grip, will help elbows to be kept close to under the bar ( elbows pointing too back ward can push you forward on the ascent ). It also helps in squeezing shoulder blades tightly and making the upper back more compact and dense ( better spot for the bar to stay over ). NOT ALL LIFTERS CAN GRIP CLOSE, as this will hurt some writs and biceps. The bigger you are, greater chances you have to space your grip more. Close/moderate grips also help you to "push" the bar up with you shoulder girdle on the ascent, a difficult trick to learn, but Im SURE can be the diference between completing a limit attempt or not. Squatting: Only your hip should squat, only your hip should move ! Period. The movment start by pushing abs against the belt ( lifters who lift beltless are better doing the opposite ) and expanding chest upward as much as possible, AFTER, it really begins , with the hip moving back ward as if you were to sit in chair. Knees should be spread out as much as possible during descend. This will: Save your knees; reduce resistance lever arm for hip extensors. Ascending: Get off bottom FIRST be lifting your head and chest up, SECOND by pushing on your heels. This will avoid one to good morning the weight up in a two time movment, and avoid 3 red lights. Denilson Costa - Brasil Subject: Re: Squat Stance From: "youderian@earthlink.net" Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:12:30 -0700 Daly, Maj Bryan - TAFB/B2PO1 wrote: > > youderian@earthlink.net wrote: > >A need to take a wider stance to go low is because of > >tightness across the ankle, knee, or hip joints. Proper > >stretching and/or massage should eliminate these problems. > > I have this problem. How do you stretch your hips (and knees) ? Start at the calf. One of my favorite ways in on a slant board. I use the leg press machine. I angle the seatback all the way up and then stand on it facing backwards. You can get quite a stretch. Then go to hip flexors - Do a lunge stretch on the floor. Paul Chek's article had a picture of this in the last Muscle Media. Then stretch your glutes. Lie on all fours facing the floor. Put your right knee behind your left knee so that your legs are crossed. Then take the right leg and move it way back so that left knee is moving up near your right pec. All you are doing is bringing your knee to your opposite pec. We invert you so that we can put your bodyweight into the stretch. Move on to IT band. Lie on the floor with your feet near a wall. If your knees and hips are at right angles while your feet are on the wall everything is great. Now put your right ankle on your left knee. If your butt hasn't risen off the floor everything is cool. Move towards the wall until your butt is about to rise off the floor. You will feel this in your right hip and parts of your right knee. Now return to the 90 degree knees with one foot on the wall and one on ankle on your knee. Arch your back slightly to align your pelvis correctly. Now press on your right knee (press it away from you towards the wall). You are stretching your Piriformis. It can fell kind of sharp - the muscle isn't large so don't blow it away. Hamstrings. Lie on a floor. Get a buddy to kneel down next to you on your left side facing you. Have him pick your left leg up and set it on his left shoulder. Then he will put his left knee on your right leg to hold your hips down to the floor. If you can bring your leg up to ninety degrees that's great. It probably won't go that far but if it can go further be sure to turn the leg out about 30 degrees if you are to continue to stretch. Just like you see cheerleaders can do when they are grabbing their heels with one hand. You want your leg to come straight towards your face until you reach ninety degrees and then turn out slightly if you are to go any further. Now have your buddy stand over you straddling your legs facing you. He will take the same leg up to ninety degrees as if it were a hamstring stretch. Then he will take your foot and SLOWLY turn it in ninety degrees (like you were pigeon-toed). Then he will SLOWLY turn your foot out ninety degrees the opposite way. This will probably burn like hell but it really releases a lot of crap accross hip and knee and joints. Then stretch your pecs and lats so that you can squat with a narrow grip and still get your shoulder joint in place. People who have to squat with a wide grip usually have tight pecs (and degenerating thoracic vertebrae but I have never investigated that). Subject: Re: Balanced approach towards legs From: "youderian@earthlink.net" Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 21:56:37 -0700 Weldon-Blair_J wrote: > > Regarding Recent Messages About Legs: > > Everyone seems to be obsessing on SQUATS, like there is no other > exercise out there to build legs. Yeah! There's Front Squats too! > Having a masters in fitness and a > certification in personal training, I caution over-zealous lifters who > think squats are the save all of the weight room. I sincerely hope that you are not talking about Squats in the Smith Machine. They are about as easy as leg extensions and about as damaging. People always wuss-out and do the leg extensions because the fiber recruitment ability is so small. Are they "working" the quads. Technically, yes, the quads will fire to elicit a movement. Is there a better way? Yes, squats and their variations - Front, Back, Back Split, Front Split, Squatting while standing on a swiss ball, etc. The recruitment patterns are superior and the wear and tear on the joint is reduced due to the antagonistic role of the hamstrings during the movement. > Do not forget your > basic leg exercises such as leg extensions, leg curls and calf raises. How can leg extensions or leg curls, be more BASIC than a Squat when an entire machine had to be CREATED to perform leg extensions and leg curls? A Squat only requires a heavy object to be held in some manner while a person moves up and down while standing. > I practice a balanced approach which also work very well for 99% of my > clients. I agree. There is an imbalance in many people's training. But it does not have to come with the leg extension. There are other ways. I will be glad to help you. Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:06:35 -0300 From: DENILSON PINTO DA COSTA Subject: Re: Rats! And a question. >I went to my internist's office today, where the physician's assistant and >a rheumatologist decided I have patellar-femoral syndrome in my right knee, >probably from trauma. (About four weeks ago, I ran into the corner of a >desk at work. It hurt so much my field of vision narrowed. The practice >of law is dangerous!) . > >I had planned to enter my first meet on July 11--NASA's Kentucky Grand. I >was going to enter--you guessed it--NASA's new single event (raw) squat >competiton, 40-44 y.o. div. I presume that's no longer a realistic goal >for July. Rats! > >My question to anybody who has dealt with patellar-femoral syndrome is just >whether it makes sense to keep doing squats and deadlifts--albeit lighter >ones--until my appointment at the sports medicine clinic. Thanks much. Hi Robert If you take a look at strength list archives ( check Jason strength site ) you can find a long discusion about this topic over the last month or two. Powerlifters have recovered and returned to compete after broken legs, ruptured patellar tendons, herniated discs, fractured L5 vertebrae, and so. The first step is "keep your faith and passion strong" !!! Then you must search a Phisical therapist familiar with our sport. I did not when I had the same problem also after a small accident. I ended up doing about one year of rehab work with a orthopadic doctor, we used mostly superficial and deep heat, cupled with knee extensions, he said me squatting was forbiden !!! After getting sick with no results, I abandoned therapy and begun to squat, DEEP. Deep squats did for my knees what months of therapy failed to do !!! ps.: 90 degree work with either partial squats, leg presses, hacks or leg extensions will INCREASE patelo femoral compressive forces. Squat at least to parallel, or deeper, oviously without bouncing up. Also if your problem were due to a suposed imbalance between vastus medialis and lateralis ( chondromalacia consequent of improper patelar tracking ), leg extensions done at the last degrees ( minus the lock out, DONT LOCK OUT ! Use the intermediate degrees between 90 and lock out, but dont get close to any of these critical points ) may help. Ohh, yes, also squat BACK with your hip, not down over your knees. Think your knees should be kept as stationary as possible as you squat backward pivoting around them. Think of a vertical shin. Denilson Costa - Brasil Subject: Re: squats? From: arct@cwave.com Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 08:18:15 -0700 > I have recently (in the last 8 weeks) found out how great squats can > be. I use the a smith machine so that I can make sure I get my form > down perfect before I go to a squat rack. When I squat I go down to > the point where my butt almost touches my heals. I have read that you > should only go to parallel. I only squat really deep with light > weights around 150 or less. I do the parallel variety when I am over > 200. Currently on my fourth and finnal set I am at 240 for 8 reps. > My question is what are your thoughts on really deep squats? Should I > give them up and just concentrate on the "normal"squat? Thanks Try this test. Drop a penny on the ground. Now squat down to pick it up (acutally squatting, not just bending at the waist). Unless you have unbeleivably long arms (like some basketball players), you'll have to squat pretty deeply to pick up the penny. Have you seen the pit crew during an Indycar race? When their changing the tires on a race car, their down in a full squat. Then there are catchers in baseball who spend the whole game in a full squat. There are numerous other examples, but you get the point, the human body is designed so that it can squat deeply. When you say you only do parallel squats with the heavier weights, you are saying that you are strong enough to partial squat that weight, but aren't strong enough to full squat the weight. So you shouldn't be doing full squats with 240, at least not until you have progressed to the point where you are strong enough to do them. Loren Chiu Subject: Re: Deep squats From: Chad Reilly Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:30:52 -0700 > From: James Stewart - Sun Minneapolis Reseller SE > > > When you squat all the way down, with weights, your risk for injury > increases dramatically, due to the way the upper and lower leg > separate at the knee joint. When you squat all the way down you cannot handle nearly as much weight as when they do half or parallel squats. When you take the lesser weight into consideration, (which is still considerable in trained lifters) some would say there is a decreased risk of injury on all structures. This fear of injury caused by the upper and lower leg separating is purely speculative and is not backed up by any research. > It can be done. However, you need to > be very careful by using lighter weights (at least at first), by > making sure you don't bounce out of the bottom of the movement, > and by making sure your form is perfect. Slowly working into the lower depths is good advice. However, I would be more concerned whether or not the lifter has enough flexibility of the hip musculature to allow them to maintain a reasonably flat lower back while squatting with weight. Although you always hear that it is bad to bounce at the bottom of the squat, (and I am not advocating that you do) Olympic lifters have been doing so for decades with no ill effects. The previous poster talked about the body being designed to full squat and I think they are 100 percent correct, and there is evidence to support this. There are specific areas of both the knee and hip that develop osteoarthritis primarily due to habitual disuse. These areas of disuse are only loaded when the knee and hip reach more extreme levels of flexion as is achieved in the rock bottom squat. Research has shown that in China where the population frequently rests in the deep squat position there is a dramatically lower prevalence of osteoarthritis of both the knee and hip in comparison to western societies who rarely assume the deep squat position. cr Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 11:07:51 -0700 From: Deepsquatter Subject: Re: Strength_List: Kneeling squats??? Mister Sunshine wrote: > > Kneeling I can do on some days, so a post by Denilson mentioning them > caught my attention (I HAVE heard of them before, tho). These just _might_ > be something I can do, and might also be good for me in a rehab sense (tho > I'd have to ask my PT). > Can someone provide a description or pointer to a URL where there's one? From the FAQ: What is a kneeling squat? Now, kneeling squats are pretty simple. You set the bar low in the cage, crawl under on your knees and take it out of the rack. Then you "squat". Try to touch your butt to the floor. Make sure you force the hips forward as you come up. I think louie recommends higher reps (6-10) on these so as not to kill the knees. Use a pad under your knees I usually "appropriate" one from the aerobics room ! - ---- Jason W. Burnell STRENGTH ONLINE: http://www.deepsquatter.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 22:00:43 -0700 From: "Rob and Sonia" Subject: First experience with box squats Well, I did box squats today, along with front squats. I'd like to explain what happened, and perhaps anyone could add advice, encouragement, or just some humor, as I felt like a schmutz getting SMOKED by light weight. Okay, so here we go: BOX SQUATS - After months of squatting inactivity (and running hyperactivity -- BLECH!) I squat ~405x3 raw, heels to calves, so I figured I'd use 60% =3D 245, focusing on acceleration rather than "heavy" weight. BWAAAHAHAHAAAA!!!!! How about . . . NOT!!!! I did 6x3 (aiming for 8x3) with 45 seconds between sets. I could barely stand up after the 6th set. What gives? I set the box 2" below parallel, and worked on acceleration. I tried to use a wide stance, but my crotch felt like it would rip. I also tried aiming my feet more forward, but I felt goofy stuff behind my kneecaps in my "kneepit" area, so I nixed that and went slightly wider than shoulder width. I also used flat shoes, instead of my typical squatting Jungle Boots (with heel) I lowered to the box, relaxed my hips, hams and quads, but kept my upper back and lower back tight, and maintained the forward lean. I "exploded" upward, but by the 6th set, my "explosions" were more like popcorn farts --> "pfffft", as opposed to "BOOM!!!!!" 6 sets! I could feel my adductors, hams, quads, and glutes screaming out for help. Friggin' awesome! However, I'm a little miffed as to why I failed at such a light weight after only 6 sets. I'm not complaining, as my entire lower body feels "better" than it did after the first time I squatted 10 years ago (and damn near fell down the stairs of my gym immediately afterward) Okay, so there's the experience with the box squats. please, if you've done box squats, comment. - - ROBO This seems about right. I use a stance that is pretty close to my squat stance( pretty wide). You will find that you will get sore in somewhat different areas then you will with regular squats. That is one reason I like to do both. That feet forward feels funny to me with a wide stance. If you look at the pics even the guys that louie says point their feet straight ahead have them turned out slightly. I like to keep everything lined up. That is the nature of the beast. You've found some weak spots. Now hurt them. I love box squats because they really reinforce my form i.e. thay force me to sit back and you can't cheat the depth on the box. - ---- Jason W. Burnell Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 22:02:16 EDT From: Thomas A Anderson Subject: beeper for squatting beeping squat device: i used to lift with some guys who had one of these devices. i think it is mainly useful if you are squatting alone or do not trust the eye of the people watching your depth. the device velcroes to the leg (top of the thigh) and has an on/off switch. it beeps when the device in on and become parallel with the floor. if you squat real deep you get 2 beeps, one when you go down and cross parallel and one when you come back up and cross parallel. i am not sure of the cost or even where to get one but i would vouch for the thing working. tony Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:37:47 -0700 From: Deepsquatter Subject: beeper for squatting Keith Hobman wrote: > Where can I get one of these things? I got nothing but 'builders in my gym > who think a half squat is deep! Call: Bigger, Faster, Stronger - 1-800-628-9737 - The "OTHER" box squat guys. :) - ---- Jason W. Burnell Subject: Re: squat form? From: Animal4375@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 05:49:08 -0700 Don't put anything under your heels; that will make the problem worse. Make sure you look straight up when u squat. Also make sure you're using a good belt. If your coming up on your toes it may be that your calfs and achiles(sp?) tendon are not flexible enough stretch them before after and during your workout. Your butt is coming up first so your obviously rounding your back. Your lower back strength may be at fault and/or your abdominal strength. Abs keep you erect if they get weak you're f***ed. Squats require alot of balance; practice squatting with no weight on your back just using perfect form. Animal Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:33:01 EDT From: Diesel93@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: squatting In a message dated 98-08-18 10:36:28 EDT, you write: > i am wondering if anyone has some advice on what to do. i am getting very > frustrated. my bench has seen a significant increase as well as my deadlift. > i > do not feel like i have a problem with either of those lifts. I have improved my best triple from 275 to 300 in the past 4 weeks by doing the following squat routine: 1. Regular Squats: 52% x 6 reps (warm-up 1) 70% x 3 reps (warm-up 2) 1 set for a hard triple -- add 5 lbs. each week 2. Pause Squats: 1 set @ 80% of weight used for previous triple for as many reps as possible (add 5 lbs. the next workout once you get 8 reps) Be sure to go really deep on these. 3. Zercher Squats: 1 set @ ~65% of the weight you used on the pause squats. Do as many reps as possible and add 5lbs. the next workout when you get 8 reps. This is the exercise that has really helped my squat since I had been stuck at 275x3 doing just #s 1 and 2. It had been increasing ever since I started these. Hope this helps some. - -Eric Adolp Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:32:06 -0400 From: Steve Dana Subject: Strength_List: squatting -Reply >> as far as my sticking point: it seems to be about 1/3 of the way up as i come off the bottom. i have been doing pause squats. i have been thinking of doing what i think someone suggested not too long ago, squatting starting with the bar right below my sticking point using a power rack. any other suggestions would be appreciated. thanks, tony << I'm no expert (for sure) and it's even harder to do over email...but some things to consider....you could be lacking explosiveness..in which case the pause squats are a good thing and I would add very low box squats in a mini cycle too. but you say the first 1/3 which sounds like you are at least starting to get out of the hole....which brings me to a question of your technique, which we obviously can't see in email. maybe you should consider your technique and you will need a partner for this. sounds like (maybe) you are not getting your hips into the movement at the point of your failure....if you are getting the hips involved but they are just failing to move the weight, this is your weakness and there are many many westside special excercises to remedy that. just some thoughts...hope it helps. steve dana Subject: Re: Squats and blocks question From: arct@cwave.com Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:02:09 -0700 > From: "The Center Health & Fitness, Inc" > Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 07:12:11 -0700 > > >From: Chris Thibaudeau > >Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 2:06 AM > > > >*** hammerron wrote: > >When I do squats what is the difference between if I use a block under my > >heels or not..thanks for the input. > >*** > > > >It's a flexibility thing. You should use block only if you cannot go deep > >enough while keeping your feet flat of the ground. > > I have a client that is only able to do parallel squats w/ blocks under her > heels. Her flexibility seems WNL but she is unable to do more than a > partial squat w/o a block (2" or so). any ideas? Tight calf muscles are commonly responsible for lack of squat depth. Typical static stretching may not be enough to increase ROM, so you should have them perform a stretch on the seated and standing calf raise machines (with a sufficient amount of weight on it). However, you should also investigate the possibility of other muscle imbalances, such as poor back strength and weak external rotators. In fact, fixing their squat may not be as simple as simply correcting the imbalances though. If they've been squatting for a substantial amount of time like this, then their motor program for squats may be "incorrect," therefore forcing her to have to relearn the movement. Try using a series of progressions to reteach the squat (and help correct the imbalances). Start with an exercise like swiss ball wall squats, then when this is mastered, move to overhead squats, then front squats, and eventually to back squats. Loren Chiu Subject: Squatting without blocks, finally, after 10 years doing it wrong From: "Scott" Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:20:33 -0700 Here's the whole secret: PUT YOUR FEET FURTHER APART. It may be just 2 to 6 inches. I have been working out off and on (mostly off) for 12 years and whenever I did squats I did them the classic wrong way, feet parallel shoulder width with heels on a block, knees bent too deep, shins flying forward instead of staying up and down as much as possible. I TRIED doing them shins straight with no block and never could do it - would have fallen backwards. So basically I thought all training manuals which said do it without a block and shins straight were not based in reality but rather theory. Then someone told me to put my feet a little further apart. Guess what? It moves your center of gravity dramatically forward; you can go down shins straight and really burn your quads much more than with a narrower stance, and not fall over backwards and make an ass of yourself. Be sure to arch your back instead of having it bent over. So no more blocks for me. Scott Cover Subject: SQUATS & BLOCKS From: Mcsiff@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:03:17 -0700 Planks or blocks of the typical thickness used under the heels during squatting have a far more pronounced effect on leverages and location of component forces acting on the body than on the typical EMGs recorded from the extensors or flexors of the knee and hip. Any changes also depend on the depth of the squat, foot spacing and rate of descent and ascent used by the individual. Higher blocks tend to increase the patello-femoral force. This may be counteracted to a certain degree by using the well-known powerlifting strategy of pushing the buttocks backwards, instead of allowing the knees to thrust strongly forwards. There are several ways of increasing the depth of one's squat: 1. Use progressively thinner blocks to gradually squat deeper and deeper over a period of several weeks or months. Later, one can even use planks under the balls of the feet to take one's flexibility even further (for many years I have used this corrective strategy with weightlifters who tend to lean forwards during the dip phase of the jerk - or had them curl the toes upwards to achieve the same effect). 2. Squat as far down as you can without heel planks without weights, then shift your feet a small distance apart and try again. Squat depth will invariably increase and this process may be continued until you can full squat without blocks. This strategy, however, can place increased stress on the leg adductors (which sometimes is not a bad thing, since this largely eliminates the need for specialised leg adduction exercises). So, you can do deep squats with a wide foot spacing, then gradually work your feet closer until they are about shoulder width apart - and thus you can quite easily achieve the desired deep squat position. Begin without weights and progressively add more resistance in controlled movements without pronounced forward body lean. 3. Squat as far down as you can without heel planks without weights, then add light weights and gently allow the added load to force you into a slightly deeper squat. Use a standard progressive loading method over the weeks to force you into a comfortable low squat position. Holding the lowest squat position for a quasi-isometric stretch is important - one can even do gentle up and down ballistic oscillations about this low position to enhance range of movement safely (for those who have doubts about this ballistic method, consult Basmajian 'Muscles Alive'). I have found all of the above methods to be highly successful, even with some older men who could not squat as far as thighs parallel to the ground, yet after a few months of using these strategies at least twice a week, they have eventually managed to do overhead squats (snatch style) and full squat snatches without knee injury. Interestingly, three of these older men, a Masters tennis player, a former sprinter and a bodybuilder had all been receiving physio treatment for more than 3 months to resolve knee pain (chondromalacia patellae or peripatellar pain syndrome) and were warned against any form of squatting. Instead they had to do the usual isokinetic knee extensions to little avail - one even used transdermal anti-inflammatory patches to handle the pain. After following the above strategies, all of them managed to do full range squats without pain or any medical treatment and return to fairly vigorous competition, so, at least in their case, full range, pain-free squatting (with something like 50% more than bodyweight) not only became possible, but it enabled them to improve on previous sporting achievements without further recourse to medical treatment. Obviously, the use of such methods should be done carefully and intelligently on the basis of a good understanding of the underlying pathology and medical feedback, but the potential rewards can be great. So, don't discard any exercise out of hand, discard any method of doing that exercise which may be causing the problem. Dr Mel C Siff Littleton, Colorado, USA mcsiff@aol.com From: tert@huitzilo.tezcat.com (Greg Whitman) Subject: Re: Squat poundages dropping Date: 1 Sep 1998 10:07:39 -0500 KC wrote: >I can't figure this one out: my squat poundages are dropping, but I doubt >it's overtraining because my other exercise poundages are going up. > >A few months ago, I worked up to a best of 300 lbs. for two reps. I stopped >free bar squats for a while to focus on other exercises, namely the >deadlift and power clean. > >Now that I'm back to squatting, I can't increase my weights and reps at >every workout, like I used to. Now I can only do 275 for 2 reps. > >I rest four days between squat workouts. My routine goes like this: Try waiting six or seven days between squat workouts. Most people seem to do them once a week. Some alternate squats and deadlifts from week to week. >115x12 >160x10 >195x8 >225x8 >250x4-6 to failure >275xto failure (1-2 reps lately) > >Any good assistance exercises for weak points? Krista has mentioned some 1-1/4 squat, I think it's called, where you go all the way down, then come up just past parallel, then go down again[*], in order to focus on the sticking point. It sounds like sheer masochism but apparently it works for some people. * of course, don't forget to go all the way back up again Greg Whitman greg@grmpng.pbz Greg Whitman wrote: > Krista has mentioned some 1-1/4 squat, I think it's called, where > you go all the way down, then come up just past parallel, then go > down again[*], in order to focus on the sticking point. It sounds > like sheer masochism but apparently it works for some people. If you want to try something truly hideous, try "stage" squats. Do 10 reps in the middle third of the motion (just below parallel to about a half squat. Then drop to rock bottom and do 10 reps in the bottom third (rock bottom to just over parallel.) Then do 10 reps in the top third (half squat to vertical.) Finish up with about 10 full motion reps (stopping for breath where necessary.) Then die. I have not done this in 5 years and don't actually plan to ever again. Not because it does not work but because it is just too over the top. -- Bill Thomas Parah wrote in message <6sbpj1$irs@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>... >This week I am going to leave the Smith Machine and head over to the cage. >I feel sick already. LOL > >I would like some tips on form and anything else I should know about >squatting. I have only been going to the gym now for about 3 months, so I >am a newbie. So any help would be great. Squatting, in principle, is quite simple. Simply sit down in an invisible chair. 1. Keep a natural curve in your lower back. The best way to do this is to look up while squatting, and think of hanging your ass out as much as possible. Put the bar across your traps, not your neck. Experiment with different bar placements from higher to lower. 2. Put your feet where you feel comfortable. Experiment to see which width is best for you. Wider will give you more stability and make it easier to go deeper. Knees should not drift out over toes (people with long legs will have their knees come out more than those stumpy folks like me). 3. Do not lean forward excessively, but OTOH do not try to keep your back perpendicular to the floor. You will tip over backward if you attempt perfect perpendicularity, and involve your lower back too much with an excessive forward lean. 4. Lift with the LEGS, not with the back. Your back is a shelf for the bar, not a source of momentum. As you ascend, drive the heels down into the floor and use your glutes to push your hips forward as you straighten up. 5. Be humble at the altar of squat. Go deeper, lighter, and slower rather than shallower, heavier, and faster. Control the descent and ascent. That should get you started. Krista ---------------------- NEW EMAIL: krust@interlog.com NEW URL: http://krista.tico.com/weights.html Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:25:00 -0600 From: "Mike Remple" Subject: Strength_List: Re: Strength-Digest: V1 #135 >Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 00:03:38 -0300 >From: "Denilson Costa" >Subject: Re: Strength_List: RE: Keith's Squat >>I never got to watch Mike during that competition but in the warm up room he looked >>borderline at best. I was going to say something but he was rushing to get on the >>platform (and get his equipment on) and that's too late to give someone something >>else to worry about. I'm sure he's corrected it now and I hope I see him at >>Vegreville. So THATS why my ears have been ringing! I guess I should paying more attention. First of all yes, I have rectified my depth problem - and I will be trying to right my contest wrongs ( bombing out on the squat). Second I WAS training high for a long time not just in the warm-up room. The were many problems in my training - chief of all I was a newbie and had very little expeerience free squatting. Then I was going under an assumption that IPF required paralell - NOT BELOW PARALELL. Needless so say I chose *way* too high of an opener. I have been coming to the same conclusion as Denilson - that box squats need to be adjusted for IPF lifters. I adjusted my box height from 13.5" to 11" over this last 6 mo's and have returned to my previous poundages - WITH one BIG problem - IT IS STILL HARD FOR ME TO BREAK PARALELL. For example I had a 420lb 11" box squat about 2 months ago, and I have been training free Squats for the last 6 weeks only to find my competition (full gear) max is a whopping 425lb. Not exactly impressive carry over. The hardest aspect of the lift is breaking paralell and keeping my arch. WHY? 1) I think that box squatting does need to be significantly lower ( up to 4 " below) for IPF lifters 2) I think that sitting so far back (Louie style) hurts your ability to break paralell - as well as well as the exagerated width stance and the toes straigt forward advice (which are gr8 for the APF) 3) I think that box squats should be supplemented with pause squats if you are going to lift in a single ply suit and in a below paralell federation. 4) Only experienced PLer's should box squat - newbies should train free squats until they have the groove very solidified. I have come to these conclusions after training on a box for over a year having improved greatly at box squating and having improved little at free squatting. I don't think it is useless I just think it needs to be modified to your own orginization. _MIKE_ Subject: Re: 20-rep squats From: Jason F Keen Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:06:17 -0700 Alright! Some discussion! The 20-rep squat program is something unconventional, but it is definitely not anything new to people who have read Brawn, Super Squats (THE 20-rep squat book), or Dinosaur Training. Also, if you like to read the 'old' muscle mags and courses you will find this just about anywhere. I have gotten numerous questions about the program. As for the 20 reps, yest that is an integral part of the program. After you do the 10 that you can normallly do, do 10 more! I know that it is uncomfortable, and believe me, you can barely breathe or see after the squats and pullovers. If you don't have to rest for 5 minutes between that and the other leg work, you didn't work too hard. Yes, it is taxing to hold that weight on your back for 20 reps, but this part of the workout alone is a great conditioning effect for when you only have to do 5 reps again. As for the 1.25 pound plates I mentioned, yes I got mine from Ironman magazine. I think I just called their book phone # at 1-800-447-0008 and said "do you still sell 1.25 pound olympic plates?" (if anyone read Ironman a few years back, they always used to have a page with gym equipment on it) I believe it was $3 for 4 ,but the shipping will probably run $12-13. As I told Vickie, though, if you are trying to get stronger, these small plates will be one of your best buys. Again, this program is not new or sophisticated, but it is effective. As Mel said, it should maybe not be your primary training program, but it is a great one to cycle in. It works wonders for my powerlifters who want to go up a weight class or put on some real muscle. Although the 20-rep squats are powerful, I am positive that some of this is also that 1)this routine takes us from the usual 2-8 reps in our powerlifting schemes to 10-12, and 2)the only time we work a bodypart twice in a week is when doing a Louie Simmons-type workout and one of the days is light speed work. Thus, this routine works each bodypart in a "heavy" manner TWICE each week while still allowing for recovery. So, there you go. If you have any more 20-rep squat questions, go ahead and send them my way. I will answer as many as I can, and forward the rest to Randall Strossen :) --- Jason F Keen, NSCA-Certified Personal Trainer jkeen@iastate.edu Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:48:04 -0700 From: Daniel Yourg Subject: Strength_List: never say never Last week I completed a "wave" of five box squat workouts,going from 50% to 60%. Waited until the last week to do some 85% singles after my box sets. Did the singles without a box, and no belt, wraps etc. The weight felt a world of difference better in technique and feel than when I was getting ready for a meet two months ago and was transitioning from high bar to powerlifting style squats. The box squats have really helped with my form. They have also helped with my knees which feel much better. The most challenging aspect for me other than the technique itself of box squats is finding the right depth. Right now 13.5" is good for me(and my observer tells me is legal depth), after doing a few sets with 15." 12.5" is a little too low, I lose my form and have a hard time not dropping onto the box. I am 6'1" tall. I am sure many factors effect box height like width of stance, size of glutes/hams. Today back to 50% and I used chains for the first time. Used 40 pounds for 9 sets, then 80 pounds for 2 sets. This was great. Very smooth transition down and up with the chains. I even did kneeling squats on the last max effort squat/deadlift day. I had said I would never do these. The Westside training techniques has enthused my lifting. And no, I do not get anything free from Louie for saying this. Dan Yourg Subject: Re: Sqauat Depth From: Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:16:28 -0800 Kevin asked: >A question to the experts: Dr. Siff, Paul Chek, Lorne Goldenberg, Chad Reilly and anyone else who I forgot to mention. What is your opinion on deep squatting on knee health, especially the articular cartilage and menisci? > >I have talked to many physical therapists who don't believe in performing deep Squats, they say it's very dangerous! > >Kevin Kevin, danger is always context-dependant. If you're 60 years old with a bad case of chondromalacia, with no pressing need to achieve deep squat positions, and with no weight training experience, I'd say deep squats are dangerous for you. On the other hand, if you're young, healthy, with good squat form, (i.e., the ability to maintain lordosis, and keep the knees directly over the feet, among other things) and either need big quads or the ability to perform deep squats, I'd say the risks are relatively minimal. Although many of my colleagues suggest that squats should be performed with shins perpendicular to the floor, I'd add that it's not possible to train a muscle without putting stress on the corresponding joints. So, in a squat, the more the knee travels forward, the more tension you put on the quadriceps, and also the patellar tendon on the knee. The question, is, "How much is too much, relative to your situation?" Sometimes, you can only answer this question through trial and error. It's been suggested that partial ROM squats might potentiate an imbalance between the medial and lateral quadriceps, and also between the quads & hams; it's also been suggested that this imbalance can be avoided by using other exercises to train the weaker muscle group (i.e., use "shallow" squats to train lateral quad, and low step-ups to train medial quad, with stiff-leg deadlifts for hams). Using this option will not improve intermuscular coordination of these muscles during deep squats, of course. Lastly, remember that you can periodize your squat depth over a given training cycle--you don't have to use the same depth every time, although probably 98% of us do so. Charles I. Staley, B.Sc., MSS (staley@myodynamics.com) Toll-free: (800) 519-2492; Fax: (805) 683-4426 Subject: Re: Deep Squats From: Paul Chek Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 23:19:53 -0800 >> From: Kevin Allen Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 20:42:22 -0800 A question to the experts: Dr. Siff, Paul Chek, Lorne Goldenberg, Chad Reilly and anyone else who I forgot to mention. What is your opinion on deep squatting on knee health, especially the articular cartilage and menisci? << PAUL CHEK'S OPINION: * Man is anatomically designed by the selective pressures of nature to squat to the point at which his hands touch the ground. This is the depth of squat that was required for human function for as long as man has been on earth with the exception of the last hundred years or so ( it is still necessary if you look closely as I demonstrate in my lectures on functional stability). Developmental man was a ground based being until recently. Do the physical therapists you are referring to have a solution for their clients when they are telling them not to squat to depths required to work in their gardens, on the job, picking up children, etc, etc,... The most common compensation for not squatting is to bend with excessive flexion in the lumbar spine. Maybe they prefer disc derangement over retro-patellar pressure? The reason most physical therapists don't like the squat is because they were never taught how to do it properly, nor were they taught how to teach it. Most people fear what they don't understand. The Swiss Ball is a perfect example of this! In many of the conferences I lecture at I see the "experts" building arguments like children build sand castles. Just as the children on the beach can only imagine what it would be like to live in such a castle, most of the people arguing against such items as the above have little or no practical experience with such matters and therefore can only "imagine" the effects of such things as the squat or the Swiss Ball and it's many "adjunctive" applications. It is pretty bloody simple: If an individual can't squat deep for orthopedic reasons you teach them to problem solve so they accomplish the task at hand without damage to the body. Deep squats are not for everyone and the Swiss Ball is not a miracle drug; just a tool with benefits directly proportional to the skill of the user! Paul Chek Subject: Re: Deep Squats From: L B Baker Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 09:27:12 -0800 Dear Kevin: I am not an expert nor a scientist but I can tell you a little about squatting and knee injury. As for depth, if you want to compete in a powerlifting contest you have to squat deep. As for injury, if you use correct form I don't believe there is any danger. I personally have never had a problem of squating too deep, in fact, most judges say I'm a high squater. On the other hand, my wife is a deep squater, in fact she injured her knee by squating too deep with a light weight and bouncing at the bottom. To eliminate that problem we now squat in a power rack with the pins set about 1' below parallel. By squatting to the pins and remaining upright the pins allow a brief pause and allow a full recovery without bouncing. It also allows you to train heavier without worring about spotters. Injury usually occurs to the knees when at the bottom you allow your shins to roll forward allowing a bounce at the bottom. Not every one has access to a power rack. If you don't, try to use a form similar to this; no matter how wide your stance make sure your knees go in the direction of your toes as you descend. Think of sticking your chest out with your shoulders back, keep your head and spinal column erect(don't look up but straight ahead), keep your shins as erect as possible not allowing them to roll forward. At the bottom reach back with your butt as if you are reaching for a stool, do a little dip below parallel with your butt and get up with the weight raising your head toward the ceiling. Its as simple as that. L B Baker Subject: Re: Deep Squats? From: Chad Reilly Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 09:34:11 -0800 Provided you have a healthy knee to begin with there is no evidence of any risk with the deep squat position. What Neil said about the Chinese is correct. It is thought that because they squat to full knee flexion they load the cartilage of the patella more completely and thus do not suffer breakdown do to disuse (cartilage gets much of its nutrition through the cyclic motion of joint movement). It is also interesting that the hip cartilage is loaded more fully in the deep squat and studies on the Chinese find that they have less hip osteoarthritis as well. Now if your old and haven't squatted deep before I would recommend getting use to this position very slowly (gradually increasing depth and weight) since you may have some arthritic changes to begin with. You also want to be sure that you have enough flexibility to reach the low position and maintain a reasonably flat back. > I have talked to many physical therapists who don't believe in > performing deep Squats, they say it's very dangerous! To put it mildly, they don't know what they are talking about. Ask them why they say this. If they have an answer it will probably be that patellofemoral pressure are too high, which isn't true, or they will talk about over-stretching the knee ligaments which isn't true either. Better yet show them this message and invite them to join this list and debate the issue, that would be a lot of fun. Also if you explore the research it will pretty much back up what I just said. cr Subject: Re: Deep Squats? From: MStern999@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 20:46:57 -0800 Jill Roberts wrote: >> Is there a natural tendancy for the tail to 'tuck' in the bottom position? I'm a parallel squatter, but I might just give the deep squat a go. << Depends on your flexibility and how your body is built. No matter what you do with you butt, the important thing is to arch your lower back. As you go lower, you really have to concentrate on keeping that lordosis. So you gotta stick out the tail. But concentrate on the back. If you only squatted to parallel yet go gradually deeper. Have somebody spot you from the side to tell you when your lower back begins to round and stop there. Do use too heavy a weight. And try to reach ass to ankles. Maybe you also have to use a wider stance. Mell Siff, I think, wrote about that some weeks ago. Definitely give deep squats a go. There is nothing like it. You only squatted to parralel hitherto? get ready to be born again! Manuel Subject: Re: Deeps squats and the low back From: Chad Reilly Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:56:31 -0800 > Subject: Deep Squats? > From: Jill Roberts > Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:53:12 -0800 > > Just a point of form please. I often see people tucking the butt In at the > bottom of a deep squat. I thought the butt had to stick out. Is there a > natural tendancy for the tail to 'tuck' in the bottom position? > I'm a parallel squatter, but I might just give the deep squat a go. These are really good questions. I definitely believe there is a natural tendency to tuck the tail in the bottom position. This is definitely a case of what you hear or are told is not what you see or get. Even in the USAW Club Coaches video, they make a big deal about learning to lift with an "arched back" meaning lordotic, and then the next lifter up demonstrates the pull with a flat back. If you look at elite level weightlifting competitions you will see that when lifters start the pull the weight or catch the bar in the bottom position, the vast majority will do so with a flat (give or take a few degrees) lower back rather than with a normal lordotic curve. In the training hall tapes (available through IronMind) of these same lifters you will see that most of the stars tuck in their butts at the bottom and flatten out the spine. While I am not aware of any research to say if the lordotic back method is safer than the flat back method there is a study that showed that retired competitive weightlifters have less back pain than control subjects of the same age. I do have a feeling that if you beyond the flat back into full flexion of the spine then the risk increases (especially with heavy weights) you are relying on the passive structures of the lumbar spine to support the weight rather than the musculature and you have a lot less margin of error should something go wrong. Still, many people do not have the flexibility to maintain even the flat back position in the deep squat and for them I recommend they squat only as low as they can while keeping the back flat while at the same time trying to increase flexibility, primarily of the glutes and hams. Also it has been my experience that most are better able to maintain the flat back with front squats than back squats. At least that is what I think. cr Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:02:35 -0500 From: "Mike Brookman" Subject: Re: Strength_List: pityful squat.. >From: per thastrom >Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 1:14 PM >Subject: Strength_List: pityful squat.. >Some stats.. > >age: 16 >height: 5'10 >weight: 165lbs (im a kinda chubby :) ) >bp: 165 lbs >dl: 270 >sq: 110 lbs for 10 reps, estimated 1rm 145lbs > >maybe this is too little info, but what might be the problem? It might be >mental, i dont have a squat rack so i don't dare to do near maximal efforts? >Any help appreciated.. btw i dont have any "fancy" westside stuff like boxes >and chains either.. >- - - - - >per [thastrom] and his muzik... >http://user.tninet.se/~lds543f/per/ Chains and boxes are not fancy..you can make a box or find some form of a flat surface that is capable of you sitting down onto a box that is below parallel. Chains can be bought relatively cheap and are not fancy either...You don't necessarily need either of these if you are trying to get stronger in powerlifting. If you are not lifting with more weight than enough to get 10 reps then chances are your squat will continue to suffer as will your other lifts as you either get stale or stronger..either way you will have to start using more weight for less reps somewhere down the road to continue to make progress.. Mike Brookman Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:28:08 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: pityful squat.. Good point Mike. Boxes and chains are not essential to making a program work - even a Simmons program. We use a milk crate for a box and a bench - gives us two heights. Instead of bands we use surgical tubing (urrr, a lot of surgical tubing). Derek also gave some good advice. If you are willing to work you will make gains. I like the Simmons ideas because they can be incorporated in such a way as to minimize stress on your skeletal system, which I think is important. However, the equipment isn't near as important as understanding the routine and being creative. Per, be warned though. One thing I'm always concerned about with giving any young person encouragement and advice. Technique and form are crucial. Its possible to really hurt yourself and there are a lot of people in gyms who will give you very poor advice. Also a lot of people in the internet who will give you lousy advice (but - not in STRENGTH of course!! :^) BE CAREFUL!! If you could find someone in your area to train with who knows what they are doing you'll get a lot further ahead and save yourself a lot of pain and frustration. - - Keith Hobman Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:22:30 EST From: Thomas A Anderson Subject: Strength_List: squat assistance i am not sure who suggested doing the following exercise, but i tried it on monday after my squat workout and i loved it. i seem to have some trouble getting out of the hole. if i do not get my squat it is usually because i am getting buried. anyways, i set up the bar so that when i squatted under it i was slightly above parallel. then i just climbed under the bar and squatted up great for getting power out of the hole. much more difficult when you have absolutely no momentum to push up. did a set of 5, 4, and some doubles with increasing weight. anyways, thanks whoever suggested this! Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:55:45 -0600 From: Roger Broeg Subject: Strength_List: Box Squats I am usually a bit reluctant to divulge the amount of weight I lift (or lack there of). Especially on a list full of people so far out of my league. But I had an interesting experience with box squats. And I figure I won't see you snickering and Jason won't let you flame me. So here goes. Last July I did a 325lb squat in competition. That was with suit and wraps. Since then I have competed in PowerSports and bench/dead competitions. So I have not needed to do the squat as a lift. I decided to do Westside style box squats. Speed strength style so I could work on my technique and not worry about the amount of weight I push. I do box squats on monday and on friday I do my deadlift routine. This is ALL I have been doing for my legs since about august. I had worked my way up to 8 sets of doubles with 225 on the box squat with 40 seconds of rest between sets. This week I decided to see where my max is just for grins and chuckles. I did a very strong 315 with no suit and no wraps. I consider this one heck of a gain. I am amazed I got this much stronger without ever pushing heavy weight. It has to be easier on my old knees and back training this way. Anyway I just found this both interesting and encouraging and thought I would post it to the group. Roger www.willinet.net/~broeg/index.html Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:23:18 CST From: Jason F Keen Subject: Strength_List: box squats I have had a similar experience to Roger's and think that it is no accident, as I have witnessed some great gains made with box squats. A couple of years back I had a pretty bad (although not total) tear of my patellar tendon(in a motorcycle accident of all things, not even lifting) and I pretty much experienced excruciating pain just using 225 for a set of squats a year ago. I then proceeded to do not much but box squats (Louie Style) last fall and spring to rehab it, before starting back with the traditional back squat again. About a year after being too weak to squat 225 and experiencing extreme pain to boot, I am back to using 450ish when I do sets of 5 reps for the squat, with only the help of a little tiger balm :) Anyway, happy new year and do your box squats! - --- Jason F Keen, NSCA-Certified Personal Trainer jkeen@iastate.edu