From byron@news.epix.net Mon May 27 09:08:34 1996 Date: 23 May 1996 17:03:11 GMT From: byron@news.epix.net Subject: Re: Breathing Technique and Squats In article you wrote: : In article <31A1C916.6122@worldnet.att.net>, : John wrote: : >Robert Ames wrote: <> : I think most of the squat experts here will probably tell you they : inhale partially at the bottom of the movement, so that as they : rise they do not have a complete lungful of air. Probably they : do not exhale until they reach the top of the movement. But I'll : defer to them for more precise instructions. Just don't hold your : breath on the way down. I think most people take up deep breath at the top, hold it while sinking into the squat, and start exhaling at or above the sticking point. I personally couldn't even imagine trying to inhale at the bottom of a squat with anything over double bodyweight. The Valsava effect refers to the dramatic rise in intrathoracic pressure and blood pressure that occurs when you hold your breath during exertion. The effect is especially dramatic when squatting. When you sink into the squat, your lower abdomen gets squashed a little, decreasing the volume of your thorax, and therefore increasing the pressure in there. Also, most people squat with a tight belt, which further reduces volume of / increases pressure in the thorax. And of course, many people are taught to take a huge lungful of air when they breath at the top of the squat. (Incidentally, the effect is even more dangerous when doing leg presses. Doing leg presses, your thighs squash your abdomen even more, and your head is lowered ... can you say stroke?) However, the Valsava effect is not all bad. That pressure in the thorax increases the rigidity of the spine, allowing you to squat more with less load on the back muscles. That is why people cinch down tight belts and hold their breath. They sure don't do it because it feels good. I used to actually burst capillaries when squatting, leaving little specks of blood just under the skin on my neck and traps and sometimes on my face. Obviously, not good. By doing two things I got around this problem. One, I stopped using the belt except on singles doubles, and triples. You don't need the belt for every set. Two, I stopped taking super huge lungfulls of air at the top of the squat. Again, you just don't need to do this to squat well. I do believe that to squat your absolute best max single squat, you have to flirt with some dangerous blood pressure elevation due to the Valsava effect. Does anyone remember the pictures of Lee Moran breaking the 1000 pound squat barrier for the first time in history, with blood streaming out both nostrils? Awesome, but scary. What if he had burst a blood vessel in his brain instead of his nose? byron From: das@opus.freenet.vancouver.bc.ca (Darcy Semeniuk) Subject: Re: Intermediate Squat Question Date: 21 Feb 1996 18:01:48 GMT Calvin Hass (chass@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote: : Hi... : Okay, two questions about the squat: : So, is this wide-stance safe/fine to work with? (I have : reasonable flexibility, so I'm not worried about groin : strains, etc.) A wide stance brings your hips/glutes into the lift more, and de-emphasizes the quads. There's nothing unsafe about wide stance, and many people find that it helps them lift more weight. : end of the 20 reps. So, should I be wearing a belt for : both the 20-rep squats and the heavy set? Or, should I : carefully try to do away with the belt from future : workouts? (this sounds somewhat dangerous to me) I would only use the belt on the set of 8. A set of 20 is more of an endurance workout, and you might as well get the extra work for your abs/back as well...just keep your form tight. Darcy From: tlode@nyx10.cs.du.edu (the tree by the river) Subject: Re: Squatting!! Date: 20 Feb 1996 10:17:22 -0700 In article <4f7l4r$t67@percy.cs.bham.ac.uk>, David S Turner wrote: > Please help me. I am having great trouble squatting effectively. I > am quite tall 6' 2" and when I do the regular back squat I don't really > feel the effects in my quads. > >I'm with Dave here. I really, REALLY dislike squats. Leg presses - >fine. But this bar digging into my neck, and my back doing really funny >things? That I can live without.... There's a lot to be said for doing a little experimentation; I used to dislike squats myself, even after years of forcing myself through one set after another, and it wasn't until I started experimenting with form (as opposed to just doing them the first way I tried indefinitely) that they started to feel right for me. What made the biggest difference for me was simply moving the bar a little further down on my back (across the posterior deltoids rather than the traps); it may sound like a small change, but it made the movement work a great deal better for me, both in terms of comfort and effectiveness. Different stances (distance between feet, angle of those feet, etc.) didn't make as great a difference for me, but it's worthwhile to try at least a few variations there too. If your back is doing funny things (what funny things?) you may wish to back off a bit on the weight and shoot for more reps, since it's unlikely that you'll be able to give your quads an effective workout if you're having trouble maintaining good form. -- Trygve Lode | 6529 Lakeside Circle, Littleton CO 80125 | (303) 470-1011 From: drsquat@aol.com (Dr Squat) Subject: Re: How to Squat? Date: 27 Mar 1996 09:57:33 -0500 >What is a good reference to proper squatting form? I >always wrestle with how far apart my legs should be. I'm >taller so it is always more comfortable to have my legs >wide, but I wonder if I'm shifting stress to my hips away >from my legs? Any comments? Thanks. > >--Norm THE THREE CONVENTIONAL METHODS OF SQUATTING Frederick C. Hatfield, Ph.D. Dr Squat Despite the inherent problems with squatting, all of us have for years put up with them. We squat no matter what, because, it has always been thought of as best to do so. That we've gotten by and made progress with the three conventional squatting techniques mentioned below is due in no small measure to the fact that squats are a necessary part of our training. It's what we do. Powerlifting Squats (wide, intermediate or narrow stance): The distinguishing characteristic of this squatting technique is that the hip angle is acute and the knee is kept close to a right angle. The knees remain over the feet. This places the load on the gluteals and hamstrings, enabling greater loads to me moved. The danger is the shear placed on the lumbar spine, so great erector spinae strength must be developed prior to attempting this technique with heavy weights. Olympic Squats (also called "High Bar Squats" or "Bodybuilding Squats"): Olympic lifters trained this way many years ago, and bodybuilders favor it because the brunt of the load is caried by the quads. Bodybuilders claim that squatting this way "prevents" getting overly-developed gluteals. The hip is at a right angle and the knees are acutely flexed, placing great shear on the knees. Athlete's Squats: If you're going to squat for fitness or sports, and do not have a safety squat bar, this is the safest way to go. Below is a detailed description of the proper technique. Bear in mind that shear at both the knees and at the lumbar spine is still present, though far less than in the powerlifting or Olympic styles of squatting. ALTERNATIVE METHODS OF SQUATTING Here are a few leg exercises (including some techniques I've developed over the years). Some may provide both protection from and ways around knee injuries. Others, however, are merely alternatives to squatting, with little justification or with little in the way of added benefit beyond what squatting affords. Still others are downright dangerous and should be avoided. Safety Squats: The "safety squat bar" (sometimes called the "Hatfield Bar") is, in my opinion, the safest method of squatting because the shear on knees and low back are reduced significantly. The accompanying sidebar compares safety squats with the conventional methods of squatting. Leg Extensions and Leg Curls: These two exercises are favorites of bodybuilders and fitness enthusiasts. While they may be "OK" for them, they are decidedly useless for otherwise healthy athletes. Eliminate them >from your training except during times when, due to injury, they're the only movements you can perform safely and pain-free. Further, most therapists nowadays recognize that unloaded movements such as the leg extension places great shear on the knee joint, and is potentially dangerous, particularly the lower half of the movement. Lunge Squats: There are many variations to the squat movement. One extremely important one is the "lunge" squat. Lunge squats can be done to the left, right or forward, placing the weight on the lead leg. The quad muscles of the lead leg are targeted with both front and side lunges. Side lunges also target the groin muscles (especially the adductor gracilis of the opposite leg). Careful though! Advancing in a forward direction into the lunge position places tremendous shear on the knee joint! It's best to lower into the position insterad of "lunging" into it. Twisting Squats: From a front lunge position, you can "twist" to the opposite side of your lead leg while ascending from the lunge position. This is an exercise which I had originally developed for athletes like down-linemen or shot putters who are required to explode laterally while twisting upwards out of a lunge or squat position. Bodybuilders and all other athletes benefit too, in that fuller leg development is achieved in the sartorius and adductor muscles of the upper leg. "Twisting squats," as they're called, require a special harness to wear on your chest and shoulders to hold the short bar in place. DO NOT attempt to do twisting squats with a long bar, or with the bar placed on your shoulders! Loss of control in this exercise can mean groin, knee and low back injury. Also, remember that torque shear forces within the knee must be held to a minimum through careful, controlled movement. Hack Squats and Leg Presses: Hack squat machines and leg press machines of all varieties come in handy if 1) you haven't learned how to do squats properly yet, 2) you don't have a safety squat bar, 3) you don't have a spotter to help you do squats, or 4) if your back is tired or injured and you can't do regular squats. At best, they're poor substitutes for conventional or safety squats, especially due to the fact that destructive shear forces in the knee can be as much as 30 percent higher than with conventional techniques. This caution also applies to Sissy Squats, Front Squats and Overhead Squats (also called snatch grip squats). Smith Machine Squats: Assuming that the machine is bolted to the floor (most are not) and has a safety device (most do not), it's a pretty safe alternative to conventional or safety squats. since he same technique rules apply to Smith squats as apply to safety squats. The effect is derived from the fact that you're actually "leaning" against the bar, thereby minimizing shear forces in the lower back. However, shear on the knees is still considerable. Beware! Partial Squats: Contrary to popular belief, squatting above the parallel position -- knees at approximately 90 degrees flexion -- is actually more dangerous that going to parallel or below. There are two reasons for this. When you look at the structure of the knee, you'll note that at about 90 degrees flexion, the tibia's sloped shape allows it to shear upwards and over the femur. This causes a lot of compressive force against the patella, and pulls forcefully against the posterior cruciate ligament. These potentially destructive forces become significantly less as you descend further into the squat postion, largely due to the fact that the tibia's surface isn't as sloped posteriorly, where it articulates with the femur. The second reason is that, because of better leverage while doing partials, you're obliged to use a far heavier weight in order to gain any sort of adaptive overload on the muscles involved -- dangerous to the entire shoulder girdle, neck, low back and knees. Heel or Block Squats: The practice of putting a block of wood under your heels is widespread among bodybuilders in order to gain better isolation of the quads while squatting. The problem is that your knees go way out over your feet, placing great shear and compression on both the cartialge and ligaments of the knee. This allpies to Olympic or Athlete squats, but not to powerlifting squats where a conscious effort is made to keep your knees above your feet. As a powerlifter, I used 2 inch heel inserts in order to reduce the time it took me to get my hips back under the weight during the ascent. This practice gave me at least a 5 percent advantage in weight hoisted. PROPER TECHNIQUE FOR THE ATHLETE'S SQUAT Position the bar on the squat racks at a height approximately three to five inches lower than your shoulders.Check your equipment -- weight even on both sides? Collars in place? Spotter rails adjusted? Is the area free of loose plates and debris?A recommended way to evenly disperse the weight across your shoulder girdle is through the use of a Manta Ray (TM), a neat little device which clips onto the bar. This recommendation is made because the bar alone can cause discomfort or injury when sitting atop your 7th cervical vertebra. With at least two spotters standing by (NEVER only one spotter), position your hands evenly on the bar and, with your feet squarely under the bar, lift it from the rack with the legs. Step back just enough to avoid bumping the rack during the exercise, and position your feet at a comfortable width -- this is called the "athletic stance," where your force output capability is at its maximum -- usually a bit more than shoulder width). Your weight should remain centered over the back half of your feet throughout the descent and ascent, not on your toes. Descend with control into a position where the tops of your thighs are about parallel with the floor, keeping your torso and back erect so that your hips remain under the bar at all times. Do NOT allow your hips to drift backward, your knees to drift inward or out beyond your toes, or your torso to incline forward. A check on proper position is to ensure that the angles formed at the knee joint and hip joint are close to being equal. (By contrast, powerlifters almost always have more of an agle at the hips, and close to a right angle at the knees.) You should go to a depth necessary to stimulate maximum quadriceps and gluteal contraction, but not so deep that 1) your knees are traumatized, or 2) hyperflexion of your lumbar spine exposes you to serious back injury. Descend to a depth where your thighs are approximately parallel to the floor. Vigorously rise out of the squat position following the same path that you descended -- the torso and back remain erect and the hips remain under the bar throughout the ascent. As your leverage improves throughout your ascent, accelerate the bar, always bearing upwards against the weight with maximum force. Slow down just short of lockout in order to eliminate unnecessary ballistics. Repeat the squat movement for the required number of reps. The use of supportive devices such as power, suits, wraps and belts is not advised except in cases where the weight is extremely heavy. This is so your body receives adaptive stress instead of your gear. Your gear will rob you of this elemental benefit of squatting. When returning the bar to the rack, have the two spotters carefully guide you in, being sure that your hands are not in the way of the racks. Your fatigued state has diminished your control over the heavy weight, so exercise caution in the return to the racks. ----------------------------------------------------------- From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: squats Date: Sat, 30 Mar 1996 17:03:07 GMT rdhoneyf@ice.lakeheadu.ca (Rick Honeyford) wrote: >When I am doing squats as a part of my leg routine I haven't been >getting the desired muscle isolation in the upper legs. I don't think you're gonna isolate much with a squat. >Instead I >find that I end up leaning forward at the bottom of the rep and at >the top of the rep I have to do something akin to a good morning to >finish it off. You sound alot like me. I'm very tall and squatting has been a chore. I've always felt it more in my low back than anywhere else. I read an article in Hardgainer by Brooks Kubik called appropriately "Squat:Form and Technique" that helped me more than anything. A few tips, though would include: experiment with widening your stance, make sure your toes are pointed slightly out, your knees should go out in line with your toes, before the descent make sure your back is not bent over (either at hip or spine). The last point was the one I was guilty of. When I was getting fatigued, I would start the lift already bent over at the hip. So, when I descended I would bend over even further. I also have a problem with my legs going inward. My solution was to go as far as I could with good form and stop there. Of course, this is not true failure. But, you are only as strong as your weakest link. Try it. If you need further work jump on the leg extension immediately after and go heavy on the stiff-leg deadlift. > But the university gym I workout in now is really >shitty, so I don't have this option. Do you have a power rack or cage. THis is all you need. > (In the old gym I leg pressed over 500 pnds >and I rack out the machines in the university gym for leg extension >and leg curl at 200 pounds for ten reps) No offense, but leg press weight in no way = squat weight. I've leg pressed close to 2 1/2x what I've squatted. > but I am afraid If I put >more weight on the bar without proper form I will injure my back. You're right. Heavy weight + improper form =injury If all else fails, give the conventional deadlift a try. Also, you might cut down your sets. It seems multiple sets fatigue my back moreso than my legs. -- Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu From: amesr@ican.net (Robert Ames) Subject: Re: Breathing Technique and Squats Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 12:03:03 -0400 In article <31A1C916.6122@worldnet.att.net>, John wrote: >Robert Ames wrote: >> Pat Lever <"cfitness@ic.mankato.mn.us"@Mankato.MN.US> wrote: >> >> >I'm a certified personal trainer. I recently encountered a client that >> >was told that you "inhale" on the effort. Everything I have ever learned >> >says that you "exhale" on the effort. Any feedback. >> >> For squats, it's a good idea to exhale on the way down due to the >> compression of the thorax. > >Does this mean that when performing the squats we should breath out >on the way up, momentarily stop to breath in, and then proceed >downward while breathing out again? The "Valsalva Manoevre" consists of holding one's breath while compressing the diaphragm, as if one is about to defecate. It is used medically to temporarily raise blood pressure if a person is faint, or to slow down the heart in the case of tachycardia. Sometimes people unconsciously do the Valsalva manoevre, with adverse results. It can cause you to faint, it can result in dangerously high blood pressure, and it can induce cardiac arrythmias. If you hold your breath while descending in the squat exercise, you are doing an extreme form of Valsalva. There was an article posted recently in misc.fitness.misc from a person who had been taking steroids (which can raise blood pressure) and then blew a blood vessel in his brain during an intense set of squats. This is an example of what can happen if you are not careful breathing. I think most of the squat experts here will probably tell you they inhale partially at the bottom of the movement, so that as they rise they do not have a complete lungful of air. Probably they do not exhale until they reach the top of the movement. But I'll defer to them for more precise instructions. Just don't hold your breath on the way down. From: leary@accessone.com (Michael Leary) Subject: Re: Squats Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 02:38:26 GMT On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 13:36:20 -0700, "Drs. Tom B.M. Bruijnen" wrote: >You must try to keep your tibia vertical during squatting, this can be achieved if you >really try to "sit" back (push your buttocks behind, start by flexing your hips and try >to keep your back in extension and shoulders de- and retracted. Keep looking straight >forward or slightly up. It may help to try a wider stance, even as much as 90 degrees between your thighs. Remember to keep your knees centered (left to right) over your feet, that is, most people tend to bring their knees together. This will only cause knee problems sooner or later. Your hip, knee, and foot should all line-up when your thighs are parallel to the ground -- each foot should continue the line of each thigh with the knee over the foot. Hope this makes sense. If you can't see this, have someone stand just off to the side in front of you to spot your form. ML top view diagram | -- foot (continues the line of the thigh) O -- knee (somewhere between the toes and heel, centered left to right) | __ | thigh (at an angle that allows you to squat "most upright") From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: Anyone tried Breathing Squat? Date: Wed, 03 Jul 1996 13:10:41 GMT dchan@is.dal.ca (Desmond Chan) wrote: >For people who don't know what breathing squat is, it's a 20 reps squat >with weight you can only do 10 reps. Say you can only do 10 reps with 200 >lbs. Now you use the same weight but do it with 20. Instead of down and up >without pause, you take a couple of deep breaths between reps and do it >like that for the whole 20-rep set. And you only need to do just that >one set and no more. Well, that's what I read ;-) Yep, you got it right. Although toward the end of the set you'll need more than a couple of breaths. 8+) The point is not that you should take 2 breaths, but you HAVE to stop and breath several times. >But, has any one of you really tried it? Does it really work better than >normal squat, give you faster, greater result? Yes, it's a torture session and only for the masochistic. I put an inch on my thighs in around a month with these. YOu can't do them for very long as they have a tendency to burn one out. Give yourself 6-8 weeks and do no other leg work besides these (could you anyway?). For a high intensity alternative, try 15 rep squats followed by 15 rep set of stiff-legged deadlift. OUCH! Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 From: CPEDERSEN Subject: Re: Problem with Squat Form when squatting, sit back with the weight more. when descending keep the weight back on your heels more and this should help you stay more upright. you also may want to try placing the bar a bit higher on your shoulders if you are using a powerlifting style of bar placement. also make sure to keep you lowback and abs strong. these are definetley a poetential weak link when it comes to squatting form. curt ******************************************************************** Curt Pedersen The Peak Performance Journal: http://www.peakperformance1.com email: pedersen@chesco.com ------------------------------ From: "Wes Marden" Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 Subject: Re: Problem with Squat Form I have somewhat the same problem as mentioned. One point to think on is "do you have a muscle imbalance?" you have to figure this one out for yourself. If you do have a problem you must work to solve it. I discovered that having weak hamstrings as compared to the strength of quadraceps causes forward lean in my case. I would not try smith machine squats. They do not work the same muscles as regular squats. here is my leg workout:(keep in mind I had a severe lower back injury in June) Squats: 1 warmup then 3-4 sets of 5 at 60% of max Power goodmornings(these are done by leaning over until my back is at about the angle i get during squats, the bar moves about 12 inches): squat weight for 2 sets of 8 to 10, but the reps will go down as squat goes up and at some point stays below squat weight Machine crunches for 3-4 sets of 15 heavy Stiff leg Deadlift: 3 to 4 sets at 10-12 reps, not failure, but tough after the other work. If you have the problem I have, this should be helpful. good luck. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 From: RLamontB@ALPHA2.CURTIN.EDU.AU (Matt) Subject: Re: Disparity in weight of squat vs deadlift Steve: For drug-free lifters the deadlift is normally a stronger lift than the squat. There are a number of reasons for this: 1) The deadlift is a much more natural and familiar movement than the squat or for that matter the bench press. Think of how many times we put ourselves in a deadlift like position during our lives. We seldom carry an object on our backs and squat with it. 2) When squating we are in a more vulnerable position than when deadlifting. Generally we require total body strength more than when deadlifting. 3) There is much less room for error in the squat than the deadlift. If form is not strict then strength is sacrificed to the nth degree. Having said that, a 1RM of 280 in the squat and 435 in the deadlift is a big discrepancy. Obviously deadlifts are easy for you and should continue to improve without too much fuss. Its obviously time to seriously address squats and start paying your dues. While the squat and dead are very similar movements the squat is a much more important exercise. For example if you can squat 435 you will definately dead 435 but it is certainly not a certainty in the reverse scenario as you know. Steve you have a couple of options in my view: 1) Give deadlifts a miss for the time being and just concentrate on squats 2) Continue deadlifting but put it very much into the background. That is, the time you usually spend deadlifting could be broken up into deadlifts then squats. In order to achieve a more respectable squat a couple of things need to happen: -squat form needs to be reviewed using light wts. Get someone to tell you when you hit parallel. You might want to try the power squat variety in which the bar is resting just above the rear delt and stance is at least shoulder width. Also try squating away from a mirror if at all possible. -legs, buttocks, hips need need to be built up and strengthened and you need to see some weight gain as a result. Use the tape measure to gauge your progress. -Concentrate on controlling the weight into the parallel position and then exploding out of the blocks. -Carbohydrates are extremely important when squating. I find that I perform equally at deads on low energy reserves but poorly on squats in the same condition. -Learn to love squating. While I love my deadlifts there is nothing like squating when in the groove with this particular exercise. It tests strength of character like nothing else. Training partners certainly assist in keeping up the enthusiasm for squating -Watch a proficient squater in action. Steve try and take a holistic approach to squating. I find that I can take a week off from deadlifts and still perform extremely well but this is not the case with squats. You must adhere to a strict discipline, continuely persisting and conquering. I appreciate that training at home is hard but it is not impossible. With regards to the glued barbell when deadlifting: when lifting at roughly you 1RM or over the element that determines success is your mental state and your ability to coordinate and focus your efforts in the required manner. Much of this is determined by your pre-lift ritual and ability to shut out everything else but you and the barbell. Good luck, Matt -- Matthew Lamont, WA SCM Staffworker ph. 09 310 3978 rlamontb@alpha2.curtin.edu.au ------------------------------ From: dsemeniuk@novatel.ca Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 Subject: Re: Disparity in weight of squat vs deadlift > From: Myerson > > I've done walkouts and partials (not more than half way to parallel) with 375, > so having that much weight on my shoulders isn't the problem. > I do notice that when I get to just about half way to parallel, > it feels as if I go any lower I wouldn't be in control any more. The 1/2 way point is the area where the glutes & hips start to take a lot more of the load, and the quads phase out. To get past this, you might try a couple of different things: 1) Lunges onto a block. This hits the glutes a lot harder than plain lunges 2) 1/2 squats. Start at the bottom position, and come half way up. 3) Negative squats. (make sure you're in a good rack and have a spotter). Try to make the negative last 10+ seconds....especially in the last half of the movement. Also make sure your form is good and that you sit back on your heals, not bend forward at the waist as you go to parallel. > What gives? One minute the weights wouldn't budge, and two minutes later, > the same amount of weight goes up smoothly. Its all mental. I've had the same experience. I miss a weight I thought I should get, then I get pissed off at myself, and when I try again, sometimes the weight will go up. The key is to get yourself psyched up for each lift (much easier to say than to do). Cheers, Darcy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 From: james hadaway Subject: Re: Disparity in weight of squat vs deadlift I encountered a similar problem about a year ago. I finally realized, or maybe I was in denial, that I was simply emphasizing the deadlift at the expense of squats because I was experiencing good gains with the deadlifts and was lifting, at the time, what was for me big weights (approx. 360). The problem with this is that when deadlifting, your knees are never bent such that your thighs are parallel to the floor. Instead, they are bent at an angle that more closely resembles a partial squat. Thus, when you begin to go past this point in squats, you feel weaker because your legs are not used to/strong enough to go past this point. Another problem is that when deadlifting the bar only moves up. That is, you don't have to stop it from moving down and then move it up as you would when performing a squat. As you are aware, it is much harder to stop the bars downward momentum and then push it up. To help alleviate this problem I decided to move to leg presses for a while so I could concentrate solely on the strength of my thighs. After about 4 weeks, I then used a jump program that consisted of doing standing jumps, and jumps performed after taking 2 steps. For example, I performed 10 of each of these types of jumps, exerting maximum effort for each one, essentially, performing a max. squat. Each week I added 2 reps to both jumps, and did this for 5 weeks. When I went back to squatting, I was surprised to see that it had improved by 45 lbs. Since then, I've seen steady upward progress. In fact, I've found that I don't really have to deadlift anymore since as my squat increases, my deadlift seems to move right along with it. I've instead substituted heavy shrugs and clean&jerks for deadlifts. The shrugs work on my grip and traps, and the clean&jerks require much more explosion than deadlifts and work the same muscles. The C&J's also spare the lower back of more heavy pounding (which it receives from squats) and allows the lower back more time to recover. Also, don't discount the importance of strong abs for performing squats. Weighted crunches and "old fashioned" situps work great. --------------------------------------------------------- From: pavelka@aecom.yu.edu (Martin Pavelka) Subject: Re: Disparity in weight of squat vs deadlift I've been reading the thread on squats vs deadlifts and had a thought (ouch). I also wondered about this difference and found the discussion interesting. I don't remember if anyone else raised this point. Ron Cecchini wrote: >I agree with you that the dead is a seemingly more natural movement, >and that you *should* be able to pull more than squat. >That just seems logical. IMHO, maybe the reason a person squats more than they pull is that the deadlift requires pretty good grip strength and a solid shoulder girdle. If your shoulders are kind of shot, that would probably affect deadlift performance more so than squats, since the shoulders play a more active role during a deadlift. (At least it seems to me that they do, i.e., directly involved with pulling and holding the weight, as opposed to just the support aspects in a squat). Are there any physical therapists out there? Please, correct me if I'm wrong. It seems to me that the demands on the body are such that the squat, while not as *natural* movement as the deadlift, is easier from a mechanical load aspect. Are there any engineers or physicists out there?? :) Can any basic weightlifting movement be considered a *natural* movement? (ouch, I had another thought) Regards, Marty ------------------------------ From: dsemeniuk@novatel.ca Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 Subject: Re: Disparity in weight of squat vs deadlift > Go to *any* powerlifting meet. > The squats are *always* higher than the deads. > ... But you're wrong to say that *that* is what happens. > It doesn't. People squat more than they pull. Hi Ron. At first glance that appears to be the case, but actually it is wrong. I had this same discussion with Dr. Squat in m.f.w a couple of months ago. I looked up the results of a couple of meets off of the IPF home page. USPF seniors and Worlds, I believe. I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was roughly a 50-50 split between higher deads and higher squats. The lower weight classes were almost 100% heavier deads, the middle weights 165, 181 were ~50%, and the heavy guys were ~90% heavier squats. Now, if you take into account that a squat suit adds ~100 lbs to a squat, but much much less to a dead, it would seem to me that *most* lifters, when lifting without all the bullshit gear, would have a better dead than squat. Darcy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 96 From: Mark Lane Subject: Re: Disparity in weight of squat vs deadlift >>From: RLamontB@ALPHA2.CURTIN.EDU.AU (Matt) >> For drug-free lifters the deadlift is normally a stronger lift >> than the squat. >From: "Cecchini Ron" >I don't think this is so - and I don't think it has anything to do >with your "natural" or, uh, "unnatural" status. >Go to *any* powerlifting meet. >The squats are *always* higher than the deads. The following are the winners of the 1996 WDFPF (drug-free) World champs. Squat Bench Dlift Total Snyder_S 155 92.5 192.5 440 Weiss_D 172.5 117.5 233 523 Olson_B 227.5 132.5 227.5 587.5 Conyers_T 287.5 182.5 302.5 772.5 Beavers_M 250 142.5 275 667.5 Benemerito_R 300 175 320 795 McAuliffe_J 323 208 290 820 Morton_J 345 185 347.5 877.5 Stewart_A 367.5 195 372.5 935 Best_N 345 220 300 865 Phillippi_M 367.5 235 365 967.5 Moore_B 345 250 320 915 No flame intended. Just an observation. Although this does not prove that one lift is normally stronger than the other. It only highlights the fact that one lift is not always higher than the other for everyone. Mark. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 From: Michael Carr Subject: Re: Disparity in weight of squat vs deadlift Ronbo wrote: > Go to *any* powerlifting meet. > The squats are *always* higher than the deads. A quick look at the IPF homepage shows that for men in weight classes below 100kg, the deadlift is higher on average than the squat (significantly for the really light guys). At 100kg, they're roughly equal on average. Above 100kg, the squat overtakes the deadlift (significantly for the really heavy guys). In fact, at the recent IPF World Master's in India, only 15 out of 61 men that completed both lifts in the Master's I competition had a squat higher than their deadlift. Just the facts Mam... Mike Carr (who's deadlift exceeds his squat by 15%) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 From: RLamontB@ALPHA2.CURTIN.EDU.AU (Matt) Subject: Re: Disparity in weight of squat vs deadlift Just a comment in reply to Ron Cecchini: I guess I should have qualified my statement about drug-free lifters performing better at deadlifts than squats. I was referring to people who use the squat and the deadlift to build up rather than to excel at the movement in terms of maximal strength. Why do you think Brawn recomends lifting goals of 300 bench, 400 squat and 500 dead? Anyway, I guess my comment was a bit too general. Also, I'm well aware that at power meets the majority of the time squats are heavier than the dead. There's a couple of reasons for this: 1) In the squat: support gear = belt, suit and wraps, deadlifts = belt (majority of the time). 2) Deadlifts are the final lift, one assumes the heavy squats and benchs will affect the deads to some degree. I also think your comment about any power meet producing better squats than deads is a bit too general. This is certainly not always the case in my experience. The squats aren't always higher than the deads. :From what I see around my gym, beginner squaters and deaders are always quite a bit stronger in the dead - For most people it takes time to get to the point where squats are stronger than deads even if you use support gear. Most of us aren't naturally massive squaters. ...just some expanded thoughts.. -- Matthew Lamont, WA SCM Staffworker ph. 09 310 3978 rlamontb@alpha2.curtin.edu.au ------------------------------ From: Gitmon@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 Subject: Re: Disparity in weight of squat vs deadlift & Re: Front Squats & Re: Raw Lifting My fellow weightsters So much to post about!! Item 1. Ron responded >> For drug-free lifters the deadlift is normally a stronger lift >> than the squat. > >I don't think this is so - and I don't think it has anything to do with >your "natural" or, uh, "unnatural" status. I'm in agreement with that. It's not about what you ingest or don't ingest, it's the gear! >Go to *any* powerlifting meet. >The squats are *always* higher than the deads. > >And in all honesty, *that* confuses me. >I agree with you that the dead is a seemingly more natural movement, >and that you *should* be able to pull more than squat. >That just seems logical. > >But you're wrong to say that *that* is what happens. >It doesn't. >People squat more than they pull. > >Why? Again it has to do with the gear. Powerlifting USA is doing a Senior Nationals retrospective and a quick look at the 1970 results shows that only 2 of the winners had squats that exceeded their deadlifts. I don't know what the state of supportive gear was then but my suspicion is that they used ace bandages for wraps as I did in my first meet in '77. Ron, I'd urge you to check out a "raw" meet and see if the squats are still more than the deadlifts. Speaking of which, Tim, while you were up on the soapbox predicting 1500 lb squats (in the 148's, 5 man spotter assisted "for safety", awesome!!!) you forgot to mention the differences that you experienced, i.e. did you squat more than you pulled! Item 2. front squats. Helpful hint, If you have a pair of lifting straps, the kind with the loop at one end, you can wrap them around the bar and when you rack the bar (elbows nice and high now), just grab the straps. It takes a lot of the stress off the wrists. Item 3. Raw powerlifting. Both Ed Coan and Kirk Kowalski were interviewed together and they both seemed to be in favor of ditching the gear. Mark Hunter Portland ME From deepsquatter@earthlink.net Thu Nov 7 21:50:56 PST 1996 From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: Squats! Do them they're fun! Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 18:55:11 -0800 Lyndsey Ferguson wrote: > > Everyone who isn't doing squats cause they hurt their back or > they don't feel anything, you should try it out! I used to hate > squats, then I this one time I had to wait for the squat rack, so > I warmed up with some leg extensions. Then I did squats. Did a full > range of motion with my leg muscles squeezing myself up. (My butt too) > and it was great! No back soreness, having to grunt really hard on the > last couple of reps. Woo Hoo! I guess I am just celebrating my new > found love for squats. > > As Tony the tiger says, 'They'rrre Great!' > > Lyndsey Welcome to the land of the enlightened. The power cage is a temple! The squat bar is the key to all that is holy. Just fill your lungs with putrified gym air and squat. The quickening pulse, the burning lungs, that oh so wonderful pressure at the back of my eyeballs, the thickening of my neck as I drive against the bar, the mist of spittle that flys >from my mouth as I exhale, the pain in my wrists as they are bent back by the ponderous weight, the burn in my quads , the pressure in my head causing me to see stars ...... AAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG. Whew, first rep done, now for number two!!!! From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: Full Squats Or Not IS the Question: NEED ADVICE Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 03:23:20 GMT bugsbunn2@aol.com (BugsBunn2) wrote: >Recently my friend told me that I shouldn't do full squats which would >enable me to put more weight on the bar than if I was doing them full. >That is true, i can do about 60lbs more not doing full squats, however, >doing full squats with less weight with the same reps seems like i get a >better work out that way. What should I Do? >thanks I'd say go as low as you can without flexing your spine (not your hip, of course). There is some controversy that true, full ass to calf squats put too much pressure on the knee. Dave Maurice has a good article on Cyberpump about knees and squats. It's located under HIT stuff. However, few people can actually do this type of squat and maintain a flat back. Even going to parallel is a problem with many. Many people feel just going to parallel is enough and I'm inclined to agree. It seems to give the best combo of large ROM and knee health. JMHO. -- Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu University of Louisville, KY http://www.louisville.edu/~cmclarz1 From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: Help with Squats Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 19:53:41 -0800 Christopher L Connell wrote: > > Brian Russell Raupp (brr5@columbia.edu) wrote: > : I'm 6-4 and have problems keeping my weight on my heels when doing squats. > : The first few reps I can do with good form, but the last few reps I end up > : leaning forward slightly. I'm not sure how to correct it besides dropping > : to a lower poundage. I practice good form, but I just can't seem to push > : out those last reps without the weight coming forward. Any ideas? > : Thanks. > > if your back is strong and you do deadlifts, heavy > squats should'nt be a problem; especially for a strong > dude like yourself; I weigh 30 lbs. more than you and > have a similar problem; i found strnegthening my back helped this > out; maybe some of the PL / squat wizards in here can help out. > > -- > > CLC > One ,try a flat shoe like a Chuck Taylor (NOT the new HI TECH ones). They have no heel and will help keep you to sit back as you squat. This may however, shoft some of the emphasis of your squat to your glutes/hams and off your quads. You may have to experiment with foot positioning to get the effect you are looking for. Next, for lower back/hip strength you might try weighted hyperextensions, reverse hyperextensions, good mornings, arched back good mornings, seated good mornings, etc. I also have found that squatting with a Manta Ray beats the crap out of the erectors. You will probably heve to squat with less weight but your back will take a beating. Finally, some people lean forward as they become fatigued due to a weakness in the abdominal area. The abs simply can't support the weight. I know most people don't like weighted ab work because they want a small waist and fear spinal injury but some weighted work can help. Try weighted crunches, incline trunk curls. Another option is the Zercher squat... a wierd exercise that will hit your abs, hams, glutes and quads as well as your erectors. Set the hooks in a cage/rack low enough that you can lift the bar out in the crooks of your elbows, step back, set up , take a big breath of air, push your abs out against your belt, and squat down until the bar touches your thighs .... now stand up. Hope this helps. Jason Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights Subject: Re: Q: Squats & feet position.../Egoscue Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 19:02:27 GMT mabehr@mit.edu (Michael Behr) wrote: >In article <58344g$l8r@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, griffin@u.washington.edu >(Thomas Griffin) wrote: > >>> > Personally I squat with a pretty wide stance and my toes pointed >> >out i.e.sort of power-lifting style ,specifically 'cause I *can* get >> >deeper that way and I don't have any pain (other than muscular) when I >> > do it that way. > >A wider stance puts a lot of stress on the insides of your knees. You >might want to try a close stance, toes forward, at lighter weights, and >build yourself back up to regular weights... > >-Mike If he is experiencing no pain other than muscular and he feels he can get deeper with a wider stance, why would he want to try a close stance. A close stance can place a lot of stress on the knees behind the kneecap causing patella-femoral syndrome which may be the most common of knee injuries. The important thing in squat foot placement is to find the position which is most comfortable and natural for you. For me it is a fairly wide stance, not real wide, with the feet turned out slightly. The angle of the feet should be the same as the angle of the legs from the hips so that they line up as you squat. I already have p-f syndrome and there is absolutely no way I can do narrow squats with more than 100lbs. With a wide stance I can go to 405 but because of the knee pain I have to stop short of parallel. (I hope Deep Squatter will forgive me) We are all built differently so what works best for you might be totally wrong for the next person. Bob Mann