From thrillzone@hotmail.com Tue Jan 22 20:34:02 PST 2002 I usually squat up to around 335lbs with about 6 reps. I'm not sure what my max is, don't really care. I slowly worked up to it from 115lbs with patience and brains. I use as perfect form as I know how; I've had others gratuitously comment on my impeccable form. I go below parallel. I make it look easy and taller guys think it's easy for me because I'm 5' 11" and my legs are shorter than theirs... I say, "Bologna!" I never feel pain in my spine. My back is great. My legs are great. My knees are great. I have a horrible time finding good jeans/pants that fit WELL. I spent much on my wardrobe overhaul over the course of my lifting. Okay, I never use a belt (nor bar cushion). I never bother trying to squat my max, whatever that is. Now, should I ever use a belt? Is it recommended? If so, when should I use it? If I slowly and cautiously increment my upper limit over time, using good form (and spotting if needed), is there a point in using a belt, given that I strengthen supporting muscle groups as well? I gotta say, it was the SQUAT (my all-time favorite) that got me hooked into transforming my body, with A LOT of help from this group. Actually, this group changed my life, and I've never thanked you all. I wish I had taken a 'Before' picture, but this is my 'After' pics(hope it motivates someone out there): http://www.geocities.com/phan0054/moi.jpg When I started I was 150; Now, I'm 180lbs. I lift 3 days a week and I'll sprinkle in an 'every other day' schedule once in a while for the heck of it. I got pretty much all my lifting info from the helpful posts and links here. So thanks all, and thanks for the goofy laughs. This group is GOLD. Appreciate any feedback on the belt usage. From kirk@nova.org Tue Jan 22 20:35:27 PST 2002 On Fri, 18 Jan 2002, geek_girl wrote: >Ktht4972 wrote: > > The belt is meant to put presure on your mid section and help hold > > every thing in place. > >I am so uninformed. I thought the belt was to support the lower back. I thought the belt was to support the abs, then the abs support the lower back. That's one reason the narrow in front belts suck (and should more appropriately be worn backwards). Someone like Fred Hatfield would probably recommend doing the bulk of training without a belt (indicated on his web page, drsquat.com) while someone like Rickey Dale Crain would recommend lifting with one (mentioned in his newsletters, http://www.crainsmuscleworld.com/newsletters.html, and posts to various online message boards - he advocates other gear too: wraps, briefs, suits). Both of those guys have world record squats on their lifting resumes... Kirk From rcp@home.com Tue Jan 22 20:36:02 PST 2002 > > > > Someone like Fred Hatfield would probably recommend doing the bulk of > > training without a belt (indicated on his web page, drsquat.com) while > > someone like Rickey Dale Crain would recommend lifting with one (mentioned > > in his newsletters, http://www.crainsmuscleworld.com/newsletters.html, and > > posts to various online message boards - he advocates other gear too: > > wraps, briefs, suits). Both of those guys have world record squats on > > their lifting resumes... > > > You are right about what you thought. > > Studies have been done showing there is no 'dependance' created by using a > belt (as in weak abs). So whether you use one in training is up to you. > Either way works. > > -- > Keith Hobman > And like so many things, it is somewhat dependant on WHY you squat. Just as your best choice of squat style, rep schemes, etc. are dependant on why you squat (higher reps for bbers, lower for plers, high bar for olers, low bar for plers, etc. etc. etc generally speaking), so is using a belt. If you plan on competing in PLing, I would use a belt, at least for near max sets, since that is what you will be using in competition (even some raw organizations allow belts), so you might as well get every advantage you can, within the rules. If you are an OLer, AND you wear a belt when you C&J, then you should definitely wear one for heavy front squats, since that is what you will be wearing when you recover from a clean. IF you don't wear one for the C&J, then there is good reason to eschew them for your front squats. If you want "functional strength", then you could argue for not using a belt, since you won't be wearing one in the "real world", you might as well get used to doing the movement without one, too (although this is a weaker argument than the first two). In Super Squats, Strossen recommends not using a belt for 20 reppers for completely different reasons I won't go into here for sake of brevity. On a pure "impressive" feat of strength scale, a non-belt assisted squat of weight X is always more impressive than a squat of the same weight with a belt. So, if you want to be as raw as possible, and be the least assisted by equipment, then the no-belt squat is the way to go, and is always more impressive and closer to a "real world" strength example, unless you walk around wearing a weight belt.. So, quite frankly... It Depends ($1 to Lyle). Whit From mistresskrista@home.com Tue Jan 22 20:38:14 PST 2002 "Tony" wrote in message news:a907f5ee.0201171953.2ffd92b6@posting.google.com... > I usually squat up to around 335lbs with about 6 reps. I'm not sure > what my max is, don't really care. I slowly worked up to it from > 115lbs with patience and brains. I use as perfect form as I know how; > I've had others gratuitously comment on my impeccable form. I go > below parallel. I make it look easy and taller guys think it's easy > for me because I'm 5' 11" and my legs are shorter than theirs... I > say, "Bologna!" I never feel pain in my spine. My back is great. > My legs are great. My knees are great. I have a horrible time > finding good jeans/pants that fit WELL. I spent much on my wardrobe > overhaul over the course of my lifting. Okay, I never use a belt > (nor bar cushion). I never bother trying to squat my max, whatever > that is. Now, should I ever use a belt? Is it recommended? If so, > when should I use it? If I slowly and cautiously increment my upper > limit over time, using good form (and spotting if needed), is there a > point in using a belt, given that I strengthen supporting muscle > groups as well? > Nice pics, dude. I see you included leg shots for us. :) Mrowr! I just love that curve of a man's abs down to the obliques... Pardon me, I'm going to stick my head in the freezer for a moment. OK, serious stuff. 1. A belt makes ab/lower back musculature weak. This was long held to be so (hell, even I said it). However clinical research does not support this contention. 2. A belt increases both proprioception and intra-abdominal pressure, thus contributing to the integrity of the lift. This is the position which is generally supported in the relevant literature. This would be especially important for people who may have been injured and would like the proprioceptive feedback offered by a belt, people doing max lifts, etc., although of course these people can also choose not to wear a belt. For competitive PLers the belt adds to the weight which can be lifted. Should you, personally, wear a belt? It's a personal choice. Not wearing a belt will not lead to injury, as someone else suggests. Plenty of people, including myself and competitive powerlifters, squat and DL safely without one. Healthy people don't have their intestines explode out of their bellybuttons just because they aren't wearing belts. In addition, a belt will not prevent hernias such as inguinal, femoral, and scrotal hernias which tend to be the most common type of herniation. If wearing a belt is conducive to achieving your goals safely and comfortably, if you feel that the belt adds well to the workout, and assists you in training effectively, then by all means wear it. Krista -- ------------------------- www.stumptuous.com/weights.html From khobman@sk.sympaticoNOSPAM.ca Tue Jan 22 20:38:34 PST 2002 In article , "Mistress Krista" wrote: > > If wearing a belt is conducive to achieving your goals safely and > comfortably, if you feel that the belt adds well to the workout, and assists > you in training effectively, then by all means wear it. Or just wear it sometimes. I personally don't wear my heavy lever belt on anything under 80% of my 1RM. I do wear a light velcro belt on all working sets to reinforce form - I consciously push my abs against the belt. If I wasn't a competitive powerlifter I wouldn't wear a belt then either, as Whit suggested. Right now I'm so used to having the belt on for heavy sets I'd feel exposed (yeah, like my balls are hanging out) without it. Not a pleasant thought (or a pretty visual either, for that matter). So while the belt may not be a physical crutch they can be a psychological one. Fortunately they are allowed and if they weren't it would just be a matter of getting used to it. To me its really a non-issue and I agree completely with both Whits and Krista's opinions. From mistresskrista@home.com Tue Jan 22 20:57:25 PST 2002 "Su Miller" wrote in message news:3C46E9FA.6010701@nmlp.com... > Hi there, > > I've been training for a few months now, but squats are my big weakness. > Try as I might, I just don't think I'm getting nearly low enough. My > thighs aren't even getting totally parallel to the floor. I try keeping > a block of wood under my heels to prevent my tendency to go up on my > toes (way too many years of ballet and dance), and it helps a little. > > I can do the old fashioned deep knee bends and get down low, it's just > the addition of the bar and weight. > > What can I do to really push this? 1. At the beginning of your workout, after a light warmup, and at the end of your workout, incorporate this stretch. Get under the unweighted bar, and squat down in normal style. Sit at the bottom (do not allow spine to relax and round), allowing the weight to push you down into a stretch. Sit there for 5 seconds or so, then ascend as normal. That's one rep. Do 1-2 sets of 3-5 reps. Do them at each workout regardless of whether or not you plan to squat that workout. 2. Check your stance. Where are your feet? Try widening your stance and pointing toes slightly out if desired. 3. At the end of the workout also incorporate these static stretches. a) Stand on a step, slide one foot back so heel is off step. Press that heel down for 10 seconds, then bend knee and keep pressing heel down for another 10 seconds. Repeat with other side of course. Also, take care to use a full range of motion in your calf raises, and pause for a second at the bottom of each rep. b) Find a bench. Raise one straight leg and rest heel on bench. Now, bend down along your leg, from the hips (not the waist), keeping spine neutral and/or slightly arched. Push butt back slightly to do this. You'll find you probably can't go down all that far. Hold, release, go down and hold again, repeat a few times. Repeat on other side. Try these for a few weeks, and that should help. Krista -- ------------------------- www.stumptuous.com/weights.html mistresskrista at rogers dot com From watson@watsonmusic.com Mon Feb 4 20:57:00 PST 2002 Article: 706960 of misc.fitness.weights Path: news.u.washington.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!howland.erols.net!news.airnews.net!cabal10.airnews.net!cabal2.airnews.net!news-f.iadfw.net!usenet From: Watson Davis Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights Subject: Re: Crash in Squat Rack Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2002 01:43:19 -0500 Organization: Airnews.net! at Internet America Lines: 35 Message-ID: <97012D03BFF812FF.F39A777058E22F19.E1F6749C0CB19468@lp.airnews.net> X-Orig-Message-ID: <5mmp5ug3ejaouigrfvc5jks3h8nep8u3qk@4ax.com> References: Abuse-Reports-To: abuse at airmail.net to report improper postings NNTP-Proxy-Relay: library2.airnews.net NNTP-Posting-Time: Sun Feb 3 00:37:41 2002 NNTP-Posting-Host: !bDT^1k-VJHk>!W&8#rmBbY\@ (Encoded at Airnews!) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 Xref: news.u.washington.edu misc.fitness.weights:706960 On 2 Feb 2002 16:10:09 -0800, spamkiller@catcha.com (BushDog) wrote: >I had my first crash while doing squats today. Just failed miserably >on the 3rd set/3rd rep (went to 225 instead of a more prudent 205). >But instead of dropping straight down, or backwards, I sort of waddled >forward until the bar lodged itself in the second lowest pins on the >diagonal rack. It was moderately embarrasing. > >Is this right? Can somebody rate my crash form and maybe explain how >to blow it properly? Any crash you can walk away from is a good crash. However. There are lots of safer ways to fail than waddling forward and putting the weight on the lowest set of pins. I suggest you try each of the following "failures" a couple of times with a light weight. First, try to lower yourself so far down that you leave the bar on the crossbars and can skoochie out. I could always do this on a squat rack but I set the pins too low in the power cage to pull this off. Second, let your butt come up and your upper body come down into a Good Morning type of position and leave the bar on the pins that way. This is what I usually do when I fail on a squat. Third, see if you can take your hands off the bar and then kinda shrug it off your back. I have never actually done this one but the OLers I know swear by it. Of course, they swear quite a bit anyway. HTH. Watson (the ninja of nice) Davis From spamkiller@catcha.com Mon Feb 4 20:57:22 PST 2002 Article: 707188 of misc.fitness.weights Path: news.u.washington.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!postnews1.google.com!not-for-mail From: spamkiller@catcha.com (BushDog) Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights Subject: Re: Crash in Squat Rack Date: 3 Feb 2002 18:44:53 -0800 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <97012D03BFF812FF.F39A777058E22F19.E1F6749C0CB19468@lp.airnews.net> <3Te78.6220$3E5.418327@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 162.130.1.68 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: posting.google.com 1012790694 11810 127.0.0.1 (4 Feb 2002 02:44:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: groups-abuse@google.com NNTP-Posting-Date: 4 Feb 2002 02:44:54 GMT Xref: news.u.washington.edu misc.fitness.weights:707188 Hey thanks you guys. It sounds weird, but it's actually a relief to know that other people lose it in the rack. I've never SEEN anybody but myself wipe out. On this one here, I had no control. At some point I stopped going up, and went north instead. The odd thing is, the previous rep was easy. I had no warning. Being a 'deep squatter', I always thought my center of balance was more aft than most other people I watch. These other guys go nowhere near the bottom. Their ass points south like crazy, and the weight looks like it's way out front. I'm back in the rack tomorrow. From khobman@sk.sympaticoNOSPAM.ca Mon Feb 4 20:57:44 PST 2002 Article: 707408 of misc.fitness.weights Path: news.u.washington.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!NewsWatcher!user From: khobman@sk.sympaticoNOSPAM.ca (Keith Hobman) Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights Subject: Re: Crash in Squat Rack Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2002 16:16:05 -0600 Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com Message-ID: References: <97012D03BFF812FF.F39A777058E22F19.E1F6749C0CB19468@lp.airnews.net> <3Te78.6220$3E5.418327@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Complaints-To: newsabuse@supernews.com Lines: 35 Xref: news.u.washington.edu misc.fitness.weights:707408 In article , "Cliff" wrote: > > I watch. These other guys go nowhere > > near the bottom. Their ass points south like crazy, and the weight > > looks like it's way out front. > > I am probably the least qualified person to give any advice but.... I have > talked with a couple of personal trainers and I am yet to find one that > recommends doing a squat all the way down. I heard them saying that you are > just screwing up your knees. I think deep squatting should be done with > light weight just to remind your body it could go all the way down if it > wanted to, but I think that if you want to build mass you should steer away > form that type of exercise and do what the other gust are doing. Which proves the point that 99% of PT are complete morons who don't have a clue! Half squats are far more dangerous than full squats. You can use more weight which puts more load on the knees and the stress in the amortization phase is born almost completely by the knees. If done with good technique and using a gradual increase in load the full squat is not only a safe and effective exercise, but will contribute to good knees. Its idiots like the trainers you are talking to who screw up peoples knees because they don't know what they are talking about. Then when they've screwed the poor suckers bodies up good they blame it on 'free weights' or something like that. Because they are stupid. Please print this and show it to the PT's who suggested you should only do half squats. Tell them to bring out some references and studies to support their moronic opinion. -- Keith Hobman "We who are about to squat, salute you!" (Lyle McDonald) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:10:01 EST From: Mcsiff@aol.com Subject: Different Squatting Styles Soemone on another group asked for information on the differences between the weightlifting and powerlifting styles of squatting, especially with respect to their "functional" applications in other sports. My response may also be of interest here. *** The narrower, squat with more shoulder width foot spacing which allows one to descend until the backs of the thighs and calves make contact obviously is used by Olympic weightlifters and anyone who needs to develop strength, power and strength-flexibility over a full range of knee action. It is also more appropriate for anyone who needs to jump and sprint, since one cannot execute a very high vertical jump from a sumo squat stance. The wider, "sumo" style allows one to maintain a more erect stance and to place a larger degree of strength demand on lower extremity muscles than back muscles. This style involves the thigh adductors far more strongly than the narrower style of squatting and therefore offers special advantages in this direction. Note, too, that the deeper the sumo squat, the greater the stretch imposed on the thigh adductors, so the greater the risk of injury to these muscles, but also the greater the potential for enhancing the strength-flexibility of these tissues via this exercise. Research shows that the "sumo" style (which generally allows you to handle greater loads) tends to place relatively greater demands on hip extensors than the knee extensors, whereas the narrower style places relatively greater demands on the knee extensors (quads). If you require the "functionality" of powerlifting and other sports which do not call for a full range of knee action, then the sumo style of squatting will be of special value. If you wish to develop the "functionality" of weightlifting or other sports which call upon the knee to operate over a very full range, then the weightlifting squat is preferable. Even then, it is not simply the squat width or style that will decree what sort of "functionality" is developed, because this depends on neuromotor activity associated with exactly HOW you squat (slow, fast, ballistic, explosive, short duration, long duration, pattern of movement, emphasis on specific type of muscle action -- eccentric, concentric --- etc). The following excerpts from earlier writings of mine add further information on the different types of squat: ------------------------ All Squats the Same? Siff M C "Facts & Fallacies of Fitness" (2002) The following research investigated the biomechanical differences between weightlifting and powerlifting squats to show that all types of squatting definitely are not the same. Wretenberg P, Feng Y, Arborelius U High- and low-bar squatting techniques during weight-training. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1996 Feb; 28(2): 218-24 National class weightlifters performed "high-bar" squats and national class powerlifters performed "low-bar" squats, with a barbell weight of 65% of their 1 RM, and to parallel- and a deep-squatting depth. Ground reaction forces were measured with a force platform and motion was analyzed from a video record of the squats. The peak moments of force were flexing both for the hip and the knee. The mean peak moments of force at the HIP were (Nm = Newton-metres): 1. Weightlifters 230 Nm (deep) and 216 Nm (parallel) 2. Powerlifters 324 Nm (deep), and 309 Nm (parallel). At the KNEE the mean peak moments for: 1. Weightlifters were 191 Nm (deep) and 131 Nm (parallel) 2. Powerlifters, 139 Nm (deep) and 92 Nm (parallel). The weightlifters had the load more equally distributed between hip and knee, whereas the powerlifters put relatively more load on the hip joint. The thigh muscular activity was slightly higher for the powerlifters. ----------------- Dr Mel C Siff Denver, USA http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Supertraining/ Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:45:19 -0800 From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: first time with gear MBarcelone@aol.com wrote: > Hello I compete raw my best competion lifts are a 500 squat,350 bench > and a > 525 deadlift. I will be doing my first usapl meet on march 1st 2003. I > lift > in the aau this will also be the first time I try gear I have never had a > squat suit or knee wraps on ever. Is it a big adjustment going from > raw to > gear? Hi Mike, It can be a big adjustment. The gear will alter your groove a bit - when you sit back in the squat you will feel the resistance from the suit. It will be harder to sit back.This can take several sessions to get used to. Knee wraps usually make me feel like my knees are shooting over my feet - video shows it is minimal but it FEELS huge. Again, it takes several sessions to feel "normal" again. > what kind of carry over should I look for with suit and wraps on? It depends on how tight the suit and shirt are and how it fits yor body. Height and weight are good estimates but even guys that weigh the same and are the same height can have wildly different proportions. We are about the same height but at 198 you carry more mass than I do at a higher weight. > What > is the best stuff to get for a first timer? I'd probably recommend a size 34 or 35 Z-suit. I'm not sure about the current pricing but Inzer used to offer one for 42/ 2 for 66 pricing on those so I'm sure it's still fairly close to that. You could get one of each size. On the bench shirt, I'd just start with an HPHD. It's almost the same as an EHPHD but a bit fewer $$$. If you decide you like lifting in gear or do more gear meets you can move up to a HardCore or a Phenom in the future but this will get you started out fine. > And How many weeks out should I > start training with it. That depends on how much time you have until the meet and what kind of training you are doing. Some people will go for a while with just wraps and then add the suit with straps down and then go with them up. Others just put it all on and train the whole cycle with it. Still others cycle through progressively tighter and tighter gear. I know Jeff said that when his crew use to wear gear they'd put on the tightest stuff they could get into and wear it the whole cycle. My thoughts are that you need to train without it enough to build up your strength. Then you get the boost from the added gear. Others think you should train in it as long as possible to get used to the bigger weights allowed in it. I suppose that there is a balance somewhere in there. I'd put the wraps on 4-6 weeks out and get used to those on your heavy sets and then just add in the suit the last 4 sessions - 2 with straps down and two with straps up. Good luck! Jason