Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 10:06:06 -0500 From: "Feairheller, Philip" Subject: Squat bar position? I am having a problem getting used to a lower bar position for squats, good mornings, etc... A few weeks back, I realized that I was carrying the bar pretty high up on my traps. I started working on lowering the bar, and the improvement in my squat form is noticable and I feel much stronger and more able to sit back and take the weight on my glutes and hamstrings. Thats the good news! The bad news is that I am have a lot of pain right under the top of my shoulder blades, I have frequent tension headaches and I have a raw spot on my back right on my spine where the bar sits. I use to have a callus a little higher, but now its just raw (and bleeds slightly after heavy squats). This leads to a few question... Is the raw spot normal and something I will adjust to? When carrying the bar low, where is it placed? I am basically placing the bar on the top of my shoulder blades where it digs into my traps right under the top of my shoulder blades. If this bar placement is right, should I try to build up my traps to hold the weight? And finally, is it possible to place the bar below the top of the shoulder blades? Thanks for any help you can provide, I have been living with this for a while, figuring I would adjust, but after last nights ME reverse band box squat, I had to put a band-aide on my back because it is still getting worse. Thanks -Philip S. Feairheller West Chester, PA Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 11:04:41 -0500 From: Taggert Doll Subject: RE: Squat bar position? I don't know about the bleeding and headaches, doesn't sound normal to me. When I switched to a lower bar position I did have about three weeks where my rear delts were bruised and had some scrapes where the bar dug. A lot of soreness but that was the extent of it. I place the bar right on the rear delt "shelf"--the spot between the trap and rear delts. Good luck Phil! Tagg From: "Harry Garcia" Subject: Re: Squat bar position? Phil, I had the same problem. I solved my problem by grabing the bar wider and placing the bar on my rear delts as well as my traps. But I aim to place the bar on my rear delts more than my traps. Maybe you need to develop your rear delts as well as your traps. Hope this helps. Harry Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 18:15:10 -0000 From: "Dean Reece" Subject: Re: Squat bar position? I fully concur with Harry. You will want to carry the bar on the shelf just on the top of your rear delts. You can balance the bar here and essentially grab the bar very wide just to stabilize it and keep it from rolling. The downside is the bar is a little more prone to moving around. The upside is your shoulders will thank you and your bench will go up. Wear a tight t-shirt (it helps with stability). Always chalk your back. Bar stability is the key but its accomplished through fluid body movement and balance, not a narrow death grip on the bar which will tweek your shoulders as the weights increase. Remember to always move your fingers when you re- rack the bar (all it takes is one miss to remind you of this). Re: the raw spot. Just deal with it. Happens with good sharp knurling. After a while you will adjust. Slippage is another problem and if that happens you will get deep scratches. Scratches are bad. I cry like a little girl and make my wife rub aloe on them. She says to "shut up and take it like a woman". Ultimately, though, scar tissue/callouses will form on your back and you will be mostly ok. Taping the bar will help, so will a sweatshirt. Don't do either of them myself but have seen them used. Dean Reece Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:09:47 -0500 From: "Feairheller, Philip" Subject: RE: RE: Squat bar position? Thanks Bill and Dean- Your 2 descriptions of the rear delt shelf and keeping the elbows high was the trick. I was actually still carrying the bar too high. Last night, I got under the bar, and grabbed it as wide as possible. Pushing my elbows back and up, I set the bar on my rear shoulders, it just sits across my shoulder blades being held up by my rear delts. I have tried holding the bar this low before, but I felt like it was going to roll off. Last night, when I pushed my elbow back, I felt the "shelf" and the bar just sat there. Very cool! The bar doesn't touch my spine or my traps and it felt very comfortable. I'll be trying it this friday night for box squats. Thanks Again! -Philip S. Feairheller West Chester, PA Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:52:06 EST From: Mcsiff@aol.com Subject: Biomechanics of Squat & Knee Exercises Issues involving action of the knee and exercises to strengthen or rehabilitate knee action, such as the squat, knee extensions and leg curls, arise so frequently in sport and strength training that I felt it useful to compile a list of recent articles on this vast topic. The information gathered here tends to depose to a large extent the still common view that the squat is inherently a dangerous exercise and shows increasing support for the use of the squat in training and rehabilitation, matched by strong criticism of knee extensions and leg curls. Once considered a contraindicated exercise for cruciate ligament rehabilitation, the squat emerges as a useful rehabilitation tool in this regard, while questions are raised about the effectiveness and safety of isokinetic devices and other 'open chain' movements like this. Bear in mind that there are literally thousands of articles which focus on the analysis, conditioning, rehabilitation and surgery of the knee, so that this selection should be regarded as but a glimpse into the complexity of this subject. Mel Siff ------------------------------------- Escamilla RF Knee biomechanics of the dynamic squat exercise Med Sci Sports Exerc 2001 Jan; 33(1):127-41 PURPOSE: Because a strong and stable knee is paramount to an athlete's or patient's success, an understanding of knee biomechanics while performing the squat is helpful to therapists, trainers, sports medicine physicians, researchers, coaches, and athletes who are interested in closed kinetic chain exercises, knee rehabilitation, and training for sport. The purpose of this review was to examine knee biomechanics during the dynamic squat exercise. METHODS: Tibiofemoral shear and compressive forces, patellofemoral compressive force, knee muscle activity, and knee stability were reviewed and discussed relative to athletic performance, injury potential, and rehabilitation. RESULTS: Low to moderate posterior shear forces, restrained primarily by the posterior cruciate ligament (PCL), were generated throughout the squat for all knee flexion angles. Low anterior shear forces, restrained primarily by the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL), were generated between 0 and 60 degrees knee flexion. Patellofemoral compressive forces and tibiofemoral compressive and shear forces progressively increased as the knees flexed and decreased as the knees extended, reaching peak values near maximum knee flexion. Hence, training the squat in the functional range between 0 and 50 degrees knee flexion may be appropriate for many knee rehabilitation patients, because knee forces were minimum in the functional range. Quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity generally increased as knee flexion increased, which supports athletes with healthy knees performing the parallel squat (thighs parallel to ground at maximum knee flexion) between 0 and 100 degrees knee flexion. Furthermore, it was demonstrated that the parallel squat was not injurious to the healthy knee. CONCLUSIONS: The squat was shown to be an effective exercise to employ during cruciate ligament or patellofemoral rehabilitation. For athletes with healthy knees, performing the parallel squat is recommended over the deep squat, because injury potential to the menisci and cruciate and collateral ligaments may increase with the deep squat. The squat does not compromise knee stability, and can enhance stability if performed correctly. Finally, the squat can be effective in developing hip, knee, and ankle musculature, because moderate to high quadriceps, hamstrings, and gastrocnemius activity were produced during the squat. My Note: Epidemiological studies comparing Weightlifting and Powerlifting injury patterns do not corroborate the suggestion above that deep squats are necessarily more risky than half squats. Some biomechanical studies even state that half squats impose a greater patellofemoral force than full squats, so that they may be inherently less safe. Some coaches and lifters stress that it is relaxation of the muscles at the bottom of the squat which makes the full squat more dangerous and that the full squat per se is not morre dangeorus than the half squat. Almost heretically, other lifters remark that ballistic recoil off tensed muscles out of the deep squat position is safer than slow controlled squatting, but I have not come across any research which substantiates this point of view. ---------------------- Escamilla RF, Fleisig GS, Zheng N, Barrentine SW, Wilk K & Andrews JR Biomechanics of the knee during closed kinetic chain and open kinetic chain exercises. Med Sci Sports Exerc 1998 Apr; 30(4): 556-69 PURPOSE: Although closed (CKCE) and open (OKCE) kinetic chain exercises are used in athletic training and clinical environments, few studies have compared knee joint biomechanics while these exercises are performed dynamically. The purpose of this study was to quantify knee forces and muscle activity in CKCE (squat and leg press) and OKCE (knee extension). M ETHODS: Ten male subjects performed three repetitions of each exercise at their 12-repetition maximum. Kinematic, kinetic, and electromyographic data were calculated using video cameras (60 Hz), force transducers (960 Hz), and EMG (960 Hz). Mathematical muscle modeling and optimization techniques were employed to estimate internal muscle forces. RESULTS: Overall, the squat generated approximately twice as much hamstring activity as the leg press and knee extensions. Quadriceps muscle activity was greatest in CKCE when the knee was near full flexion and in OKCE when the knee was near full extension. OKCE produced more rectus femoris activity while CKCE produced more vasti muscle activity. Tibiofemoral compressive force was greatest in CKCE near full flexion and in OKCE near full extension. Peak tension in the posterior cruciate ligament was approximately twice as great in CKCE, and increased with knee flexion. Tension in the anterior cruciate ligament was present only in OKCE, and occurred near full extension. Patellofemoral compressive force was greatest in CKCE near full flexion and in the mid-range of the knee extending phase in OKCE. CONCLUSION: An understanding of these results can help in choosing appropriate exercises for rehabilitation and training. -------------------------- Stuart MJ, Meglan D, Lutz G, Growney E & An K Comparison of intersegmental tibiofemoral joint forces and muscle activity during various closed kinetic chain exercises. Am J Sports Med 1996 Nov-Dec; 24(6): 792-9 The purpose of this study was to analyze intersegmental forces at the tibiofemoral joint and muscle activity during three commonly prescribed closed kinetic chain exercises: the power squat, the front squat, and the lunge. Subjects with anterior cruciate ligament-intact knees performed repetitions of each of the three exercises using a 223-N (50-pound) barbell. The results showed that the mean tibiofemoral shear force was posterior (tibial force on femur) throughout the cycle of all three exercises. The magnitude of the posterior shear forces increased with knee flexion during the descent phase of each exercise. Joint compression forces remained constant throughout the descent and ascent phases of the power squat and the front squat. A net offset in extension for the moment about the knee was present for all three exercises. Increased quadriceps muscle activity and the decreased hamstring muscle activity are required to perform the lunge as compared with the power squat and the front squat. A posterior tibiofemoral shear force throughout the entire cycle of all three exercises in these subjects with anterior cruciate ligament-intact knees indicates that the potential loading on the injured or reconstructed anterior cruciate ligament is not significant. The magnitude of the posterior tibiofemoral shear force is not likely to be detrimental to the injured or reconstructed posterior cruciate ligament. These conclusions assume that the resultant anteroposterior shear force corresponds to the anterior and posterior cruciate ligament forces. ----------------------------- Wilk KE, Escamilla R, Fleisig G, Barrentine S, Andrews J & Boyd M A comparison of tibiofemoral joint forces and electromyographic activity during open and closed kinetic chain exercises. Am J Sports Med 1996 Jul-Aug; 24(4): 518-27 We chose to investigate tibiofemoral joint kinetics (compressive force, anteroposterior shear force, and extension torque) and electromyographic activity of the quadriceps, hamstring, and gastrocnemius muscles during open kinetic chain knee extension and closed kinetic chain leg press and squat. Ten uninjured male subjects performed 4 isotonic repetitions with a 12 repetition maximal weight for each exercise. Tibiofemoral forces were calculated using electromyographic, kinematic, and kinetic data. During the squat, the maximal compressive force was 6139 ± 1708 N, occurring at 91 degrees of knee flexion; whereas the maximal compressive force for the knee extension exercise was 4598 ± 2546 N (at 90 degrees knee flexion). During the closed kinetic chain exercises, a posterior shear force (posterior cruciate ligament stress) occurred throughout the range of motion, with the peak occurring from 85 degrees to 105 degrees of knee flexion. An anterior shear force (anterior cruciate ligament stress) was noted during open kinetic chain knee extension from 40 degrees to full extension; a peak force of 248 ± 259 N was noted at 14 degrees of knee flexion. Electromyographic data indicated greater hamstring and quadriceps muscle co-contraction during the squat compared with the other two exercises. During the leg press, the quadriceps muscle electromyographic activity was approximately 39% to 52% of maximal velocity isometric contraction; whereas hamstring muscle activity was minimal (12% maximal velocity isometric contraction). This study demonstrated significant differences in tibiofemoral forces and muscle activity between the two closed kinetic chain exercises, and between the open and closed kinetic chain exercises. -------------------------- Pandy MG & Shelburne K Dependence of cruciate-ligament loading on muscle forces and external load. J Biomech 1997 Oct; 30(10): 1015-24 A sagittal-plane model of the knee is used to predict and explain the relationships between the forces developed by the muscles, the external loads applied to the leg, and the forces induced in the cruciate ligaments during isometric exercises. The geometry of the model bones is adapted from cadaver data. Eleven elastic elements describe the geometric and mechanical properties of the cruciate ligaments, the collateral ligaments, and the posterior capsule. The model is actuated by 11 musculotendinous units, each unit represented as a three-element muscle in series with tendon. For isolated contractions of the quadriceps, ACL force increases as quadriceps force increases for all flexion angles between 0 and 80 degrees; the ACL is unloaded at flexion angles greater than 80 degrees. When quadriceps force is held constant, ACL force decreases monotonically as knee-flexion angle increases. The relationship between ACL force, quadriceps force, and knee-flexion angle is explained by the geometry of the knee-extensor mechanism and by the changing orientation of the ACL in the sagittal plane. For isolated contractions of the hamstrings, PCL force increases as hamstrings force increases for all flexion angles greater than 10 degrees; the PCL is unloaded at flexion angles less than 10 degrees. When hamstrings force is held constant, PCL force increases monotonically with increasing knee flexion. The relationship between PCL force, hamstrings force, and knee-flexion angle is explained by the geometry of the hamstrings and by the changing orientation of the PCL in the sagittal plane. At nearly all knee-flexion angles, hamstrings co-contraction is an effective means of reducing ACL force. Hamstrings co-contraction cannot protect the ACL near full extension of the knee because these muscles meet the tibia at small angles near full extension, and so cannot apply a sufficiently large posterior shear force to the leg. Moving the restraining force closer to the knee-flexion axis decreases ACL force; varying the orientation of the restraining force has only a small effect on cruciate-ligament loading. ------------------------- Note what this next reference says about squats versus knee extension exercises: Yack HJ, Collins C & Whieldon T Comparison of closed and open kinetic chain exercise in the anterior cruciateligament-deficient knee. Am J Sports Med 1993 Jan-Feb; 21(1): 49-54 The purpose of this study was to quantify the amount of anterior tibial displacement occurring in anterior cruciate ligament-deficient knees during two types of rehabilitation exercises: 1) resisted knee extension, an open kinetic chain exercise; and 2) the parallel squat, a closed kinetic chain exercise. An electrogoniometer system was applied to the anterior cruciate ligament-deficient knee of 11 volunteers and to the uninvolved normal knee in 9 of these volunteers. Anterior tibial displacement and the knee flexion angle were measured during each exercise using matched quadriceps loads and during the Lachman test. The anterior cruciate ligament-deficient knee had significantly greater anterior tibial displacement during extension from 64 degrees to 10 degrees in the knee extension exercise as compared to the parallel squat exercise. In addition, the amount of displacement during the Lachman test was significantly less than in the knee extension exercise, but significantly more than in the parallel squat exercise. No significant differences were found between measurements in the normal knee. We concluded that the stress to the anterior cruciate ligament, as indicated by anterior tibial displacement, is minimized by using the parallel squat, a closed kinetic chain exercise, when compared to the relative anterior tibial displacement during knee extension exercise. ------------------------ Note what this reference says about exercises, such as supine leg curls, which significantly recruit gastrocnemius during rehabilitation after knee injury. This information should be carefully considered by any therapists who still insist on treating cruciate ligament injuries with leg curls. Durselen L, Claes L & Kiefer H The influence of muscle forces and external loads on cruciate ligament strain. Am J Sports Med 1995 Jan-Feb; 23(1): 129-36 We know it is important to avoid excessive strain on reconstructed ligaments, but we do not know how individual muscles affect cruciate ligament strain. To answer this, we studied the effect of muscle forces and external loads on cruciate ligament strain. Nine cadaveric knee joints were tested in an apparatus that allowed unconstrained knee joint motion. Quadriceps, hamstring, and gastrocnemius muscle forces were simulated. Additionally, external loads were applied such as varus-internal or valgus-external rotation forces. Cruciate ligament strain was recorded at different knee flexion angles. Activation of the gastrocnemius muscle significantly strained the posterior cruciate ligament at flexion angles larger than 40 degrees. Quadriceps muscle activation significantly strained the anterior cruciate ligament when the knee was flexed 20 degrees to 60 degrees and reduced the strain on the posterior cruciate ligament in the same flexion range. Activation of the hamstring muscles strained the posterior cruciate ligament when the knee was flexed 70 degrees to 110 degrees. Combined varus and internal rotation forces significantly increased anterior cruciate ligament strain throughout the flexion range. The results suggest that to minimize strain on the ligament after posterior cruciate ligament surgery, strong gastrocnemius muscle contractions should be avoided beyond 30 degrees of knee flexion. The study also calls into question the use of vigorous quadriceps exercises in the range of 20 degrees to 60 degrees of knee flexion after anterior cruciate ligament r Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 16:58:42 -0500 From: "Watson Davis" Subject: RE: HIT: Squatboat It's a question of your kinesthetic (sp) sense. There are lots of times I don't even realize I've got one foot slightly forward or one foot turned out more than the other. Then my coach says,"Uh. Did that feel strange or anything to you?" And you can look down at your feet and not lean forward/lose tightness. Oh. Wait. That should read "*I* can look down at *MY* feet and not lean forward or lose tightness." :P Another thing that I learned that helped my lower back immensely was to get UNDER the bar and take it off the rack. For years, I was leaning forward slightly and then doing a mini-GM to take the bar off the rack. And I'd wonder why my back was tired. :) Watson (1/2 ton) Davis > -----Original Message----- > From: Jan Baggerud Larsen Produktsjef 8366 [mailto:JBL@rubicon.no] > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2001 3:48 PM > To: 'Strength_List@yahoogroups.com' > Subject: RE: [Strength_List] HIT: Squatboat > > > I've been thinking about this and I don't see why it would be necessary at > all to look down to check your stance. If you practice I believe > you should > be able to automatically get into the correct stance without looking down. > One of the lifters in my club taught me to take a deep breath, unrack the > bar, take one small step back with my left leg, take one step > back/out with > the right leg, then move the left leg out. Doing this I'm able to get into > the correct stance in about 3 seconds. This way I'll get the squat signal > quickly so I don't have to breathe out and then breathe in again after > unracking the bar. This works well for me. If I look down or breathe out > after I unrack the bar I lose the tightness, I feel like I'm gettting > crushed and the weight will throw me forward. > > Jan > Oslo, Norway > Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 16:10:13 -0400 From: Taggert Doll Subject: Breathing and squatting Hey list, How does everyone breath during squat attempts? My interpretation of what I have read is to take a breath and fill the stomach, unrack the bar, then take the weight out and squat. Am I missing something here? I think I would pass out if I held my breath from the time I pick the weight up until I squat. I usually fill my stomach up, push against my belt, take the weight out and get set up, then take another breath in the stomach and squat. Am I doing this right? Tagg Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:19:54 -0500 From: "Watson Davis" Subject: RE: Breathing and squatting Basically, yeah. I do it basically the way you do it. I get myself tight to take the bar off , step back feeling tight, then when I get in position, take a few breaths and psych up a little, then descend and slowly exhale (aka growl) on the way up. Watson (1/2 ton) Davis Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 16:13:21 -0500 From: "Bear" Subject: Re: Breathing and squatting Get psych before I take it out of the rack one step back step-up (wide stance) look towards sky take a deep breathe then descend at a moderate pace, hit the hole shoot out exhaling all the way. Also basically the same. Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 00:08:49 +0200 From: Jan Baggerud Larsen Produktsjef 8366 Subject: RE: Breathing and squatting I breathe in, unrack the bar, get into position, squat, then breathe out. Holding my breath has never been a problem. Of course if you spend a lot of time getting into the squat stance this would be hard. It takes me about 3 seconds to unrack the bar and get in position for the squat signal. I've seen some people use up to 20 seconds to unrack the bar and get into position. I haven't studied how the best lifters do this but I imagine getting into the correct stance as quickly and efficient as possible will save a lot of energy for the actual lift. Jan Oslo, Norway Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:33:20 -0400 From: Taggert Doll Subject: Box squat boxes Hey list, I know this has been discussed before but I didn't save any of the messages. How do I make a box for squatting? I would like to make one I could use at 3 different heights. I am about 5'7". Thanks, Tagg Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:36:26 -0500 From: "Joe" Subject: RE: Re: Box squat boxes Tagg: I built my box out of 1"X 6"'s, 2"X 6"'s, and 3" brass drywall screws. I cut the 2"X'S and 1"X's in 14" lengths and then stacked them two side by side and then cross grain until the were the right height. I then screwed them together using the drywall screws. The stands are solid and don't shift and I can feel comfortable in knowing they won't collapse. A little labor intensive though. JoeL Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 12:17:21 -0400 From: "Feairheller, Philip" Subject: RE: Box squat boxes Hi Tagg- I just recently took Mitch Armentrout(I think) advice and made my self 6 boxes that worked out great and cost a mere $35. Cut 18 inch square pieces of 1/2 inch plywood, and attach 18 inch long pieces of 2x4 to the plywood, in alternating directions as needed for height. I made two 1 inch boxes (2 pieces of plywood), two 2 inch boxes (1 plywood, 1 layer of 3 2x4s), a 4 inch box (plywood, 2 layers of 3 2x4s and another plywood) and an 8 inch box (plywood, 5 layers of 3 2x4s and another plywood). They are light enough, strong as heck and I can make heights from 1 inch up to 16 inches in 1 inch increments. I made two 1 and 2 inch boxes so I could use them for deads off blocks. To make this work, you have to attach the 2x4 pieces laying flat along the 4 inch side, not up on the 2 inch side. That allows for the different heights as well as makes them very sturdy. I have one hint from my own experience: Buy your wood at a Home Depot or Lowes and make use of the wook cutting service. I bought 4 12 foot 2x4s and took home 32 18 inch pieces (no extra cost), it saved me hours of cutting and clean up! Take Care -Philip S. Feairheller West Chester, PA Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 12:37:34 -0700 From: "Doug Schurman" Subject: RE: Box squat boxes Tagg I made some new boxes about a month ago that are working very well. My previous boxes were made with plywood outsides and 2x4's lining the inside joints for added strength. Each of the three dimensions were different to get a variety of box sizes. The worked okay but I had a new idea. I decided to make my width and length of all boxes 18" by 18" for greater surface area. Then I build an 8", 4", 3", 2" and 1" high box. For each box I use 18" 2x4's stacked in opposite directions for layers. For the 8" high box I used 15 (5 layers of 3) 2x4's 18" long stacked on their 1 1/2" side and added a 1/2" piece of plywood on top to make 8". See the diagram below for stacking: 18" width _____________ | | | | | | |______|______| 18" length | | | | | | |______|______| I assembled them with 2 1/2 wood screws. Each box is relatively light and they stack well on top of each other to get you boxes from 8" to 18" in 1" increments. Also since each layer is stacked they have built in handholds for easy carrying. Total cost for all 5 boxes was $40 and assembly was much easier than the previous boxes I built. Doug Schurman, CSCS Seattle, WA www.BodyResults.com Doug@BodyResults.com Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 08:45:47 -0700 From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: Suggestions for mirror handicap? ANMLECNMZR@aol.com wrote: > I think part of my problem, with getting gym maxes in squat (no prob > on other > lifts) to translate into meet maxes is that I have little idea how low > I'm > really going outside of the gym. My gym has mirrors in front of > everything Jeff, Never look in the mirrors. If using a cage, turn around and face the other way. If that isn't possible, obstruct the view with a sheet or a towel or something. Looking in the mirror leads to dropping your head as you search for 'where you are'. To quote Tupac (which I don't believe I've ever done before) "Keep your head up". Another advantage I've found is that this method (facing away from mirrors) subjects you to squatting while all the goofy stuff that happens in the gym (fitness center in most case) is right in front of you. If you can focus on squatting while the "1000 lb club" is doing their leg presses, the intense tag team bench press crew is yelling "All YOU" and the fitness bunnies are comparing who's spandex thong makes better butt floss.....nothing at a meet will distract you. -- Jason W. Burnell STRENGTH ONLINE: http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/ >From: "Neil Hodge" >Subject: Good Morning form >Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2001 07:57:49 -0500 > >I am going to add GMs to my workout soon, to get some extra lower back work >in. Rather than hurt myself or waste my time, I want to ask a few (rather >simple) question on this exercise: > >* Foot placement: I am placing/orienting my feet just about like squats, >i.e., nominally wider than shoulder width (actually, a little less so than >with squats), and turned a bit outward. >* Legs: Straight, but not locked out, so as to not activate the hams too >much. >* Motion: Starting at the top, and bending over at the waist. ROM from 90 >degrees to the ground to about 10 degrees above the ground, and back. > >Also, I was wondering what is a reasonable range of weight for this >exercise. > >What do you all think? Thanks for the info. > >Neil Hodge > Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2001 14:10:42 +0000 From: "WES JONES" Subject: Re: GM form Neil, On form, you need to remain tight during the movement including at the bottom. The range of weight depends on what you can handle maintaining good form. Start light and work up to going heavy once you've mastered the technique. Wes Jones Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:35:57 -0400 From: Taggert Doll Subject: Raw spots on rear delts Hello all, For the past several months I have been getting some raw patches on my rear delts where the bar sits for squats. After my sessions (especially on dynamic days) I get two 3 inch long raw spots from where the bar is digging into my delts. They usually scab only to be re-irritated again the next session. I put anti-bac cream on them after I squat, any other suggestions? I would think the skin would have built up in that area to take the stress but it isn't. I always wear a shirt that covers my delts and use chalk. Using the same bar I have used all along. Anything else I can do? It is more of an annoyance than aything else. Tagg Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:04:45 -0500 From: Randy Berndt Subject: RE: Raw spots on rear delts You must be using a fairly new bar, or at least one with very good knurling. Those abrasions will toughen up & callous. Wear them with pride. RandyB Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:03:03 -0400 From: jjobes@centura.com Subject: RE: Raw spots on rear delts I get the same thing. Try wearing a sweatshirt, but E Coan says his never heal. jjobes Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:14:50 -0400 From: "Regina Hackney" Subject: Re: Raw spots on rear delts Try wearing an INZER erector shirt. I have the same problem and as soon as I put on an erector shirt, the problem goes away. Last night, we were looking at my shirt after I took it off and you can see where the material is roughed up where the bar sets on my delts. Better the shirt than my skin. Regina Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:55:34 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Raw spots on rear delts Be aware getting into an erector shirt is about the same as getting into a bench shirt. Personally I'd much sooner have the marks then try and get into a shirt three times a week. Keith Hobman Saskatoon, Canada Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:39:31 -0500 From: "nccozine" Subject: Re: Raw spots on rear delts Tagg,welcome to powerlifting.LOL. Do some shrugs and build those traps,then the bar won't ride so much on your rear delts. I wear a sheat shirt when doing squats. Cozy Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 11:21:24 -0500 From: "William Frenick" Subject: Box squatting and meet depth Greetings, Last night was my first speed squat day since correcting my terrible squat form. I've widened my stance quite a bit, which lets me keep much more upright, and shifted my grip out to the collars. Very comfortable squatting off a box a couple inches below parallel (previous box was way too low... about 5 inches below parallel), and everything seems great. Now, take away the box. Never feel like I'm going low enough, and end up sinking my squats way below parallel. Knees end up coming forward a little more then I'd like. I just can't get the carryover from box squatting to competition form when it comes to keeping good form. Will this come on it's own in time? Should I stick some regular squats every few workouts? I've seen Louie's articles saying they do nothing but box squats and only do full squats in meets, but is this realistic only for very experienced lifters like those at WestSide? Thanks, Bill Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 10:10:05 -0500 From: frralbany@isoa.net Subject: Re: Box squatting threee times per week I only do Box squats, three times per week, I used to add in some regular Non/box squats form time to time but since I dropped them and only do Box squats My squat has jumped tremendously, from 600, to nearly 700, in the past 5 months. Depth has been no problem as I go consistenly to a below depth box twice per week. My Deadlift really jumped when I added in Good mornings. I had my first PR in the DL in over 5 years. Jeff DeMott Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 14:31:54 -0000 From: "Mike" Subject: seated good-morning advice I decieded to add good-mornings into my training routine. Being that I have not done them before, the number of variations of standing ones, I chose to try seated good-mornings in the power cage. Flexibility is not an issue, I can get my chest onto the bench using a light weight. My lower back felt fine while I was doing them. As I went heavier (I was trying to get an idea of what is a decent working weight for me) I discovered that one thing was preventing me from going as heavy as my back could handle for the full range of motion. That issue is the bar rolling up my back and onto my neck. When I use a weight that is 66% of my bodyweight, I have to forgo the last 1/4 to 1/3 range of motion to stop the bar from riding up onto my neck. I tried to "force" it to stay at the trap level to no avail. I tried various width grips on the bar, starting with the bar lower on my back and all gave the same results. I am very leary of having a heavy weight resting across just my neck. Any advice/suggestions? Should I do the exercise for the range of motion that keeps the bar off of my neck? Mike Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 11:00:31 -0500 From: "Dmitry Voronov" Subject: RE: seated good-morning advice a) keep an arch b) grow bigger traps c) get a towel, roll it around the bar so it's a few inches thick, this way the load will be partially on your head, neck and traps (works wonders, I've gone up to 550 and no neck pain) At some point, try wide stance, arched back goodmornings. This is BY FAR my favorite one. Dmitry "Alan McClure" wrote in news:u2f6q768g3ui74@corp.supernews.com: > I know that squats can be done with the feet at shoulder width or a > little bit wider than shoulder width. However, is there a distance > that is too far apart? For example, it seems that maybe if the feet > were too far apart that maybe too much stress would be placed on the > hip and there could be injury--maybe? I suppose it is another one of > those subjective things. I just felt a bit of pain in my hip after > sufficient warmups, and not rushing into things too quickly. So I > figured maybe my feet were too far apart. Does anyone have any > experience with this...? In otherwords, personal stories of similar > discomfort and distance? Or, has anyone read about this? > Power lifters squat great weights often with very wide stances. I don't think that the stance per se is an issue within reasonable bounds. I believe you should only modify your stance in small increments. Otherwise you may need to decrease the weight used. Realize that if you change your stance substantially you could very well be using very different muscles. At the very least you'll experience some newfound DOMS, at worst your form will go to shit because they can't stabilize the weight. I'm pretty sure I also read this recommendation from Stuart McRobert. George.