Internet Posts on the Squat for Year 2000 Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 14:22:56 +0100 From: "Jan Baggerud Larsen, Systemutvikler 8366" Subject: sitting back in the squat without (too much) forward lean I'm puzzled about the ability of some lifters to keep the shins perpendicular to the floor in the squat and at the same time have a very upright upper body. How on earth is this possible? Yeah, I know. Do box squats. I am doing box squats, but I can't seem to really sit back without leaning forward a lot. And I do use a wide stance, poke the butt back and push the knees out. Jan Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 09:17:19 -0500 From: "Jim Hinze" Subject: RE: Strength_List: sitting back in the squat without (too much) forward lean Ab strength, lower back strength, flexability, and squatting on your heels. Jim Hinze http://jhinze.dyndns.com http://www.ffa-mfw.com Southfield, MI Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 06:22:22 -0800 From: "Mike Trupiano" Subject: Re: Strength_List: sitting back in the squat without (too much) forward lean For everybody, they have to keep the bar in line with the ankles. The more you get out of this line the harder it will be to recover. I've been watching a couple lifters that squat very much different from me and they still follow this rule. They squat fairly close stanced, there shins come forward a bit, and they get the hips under the weight sooner. I'm thinking the ability to get your hips under the bar is key. When I focus on this I often feel soreness along the front of my hips (hip flexor?). If I'm not mistaken, in addition to box squats, west side advocates like front squats as well to help this potential weak area in many. Mike Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:00:57 -0500 From: "Wes Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: sitting back in the squat without (too much) forward lean I believe the primary factor is the relative lengths of your levers (i.e. back, thigh & shins). Regardless of your strength, you have to keep your center of gravity over your feet/heels or you'll fall over - simple physics. You can modify your levers somewhat by changing the location of the bar on your back (altering the effective length of your back lever) or widening your stance (effectively shortening your thigh lever as seen from the side looking along the hinge axis of your back/thigh), but for the most part you're stuck with what ya got. Wade & I are a great example of this. Wade's legs are probably a touch longer than mine, but I'm about 2 inches taller due to my torso length (see the gallery photo). Given the same squat stance, Wade has more forward lean than I do to keep his CoG over his feet. If he tried to squat as upright as me, he'd fall over backwards. So he lets his knees come forward more than I do to reduce his lean and keep his hips more under the weight. Wes Hanna Lansing,MI whanna@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 23:18:54 +0100 From: Bjorn Lindberg Subject: Re: sitting back in the squat without (too much) forward lean I believe that with an extremely wide stance, and pushing your knees out, you can significantly shorten the thigh lever. I think this is why many people are astounded by how Westsiders are able to stay as upright as they are, while keeping the shins perpendicular. In reality, sitting down a bit between the knees, as viewed from above. If you instead of pushing the knees out, keep them in line with the hips and feet, this won't happen. Then either your knees has to come forward OR your hips goes back i.e. more torso lean. Bjorn Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 00:05:33 -0500 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Errata (All ON TOPIC:-) > A few questions: > > 1) What is the opinion on the value of heavy walkouts/partial squats to acclimate to extra heavy weights? Pretty valuable in my opinion IF you don't handle heavy squats on a regular basis. You can mentally fail a 1RM by thinking "this is too heavy." If you routinely handle that weight and more (at least on a walkout or partial) then you are less apt to doom the attempt before you even sit down with it. Your mind is a ~very~ powerful asset...train it too IMO. Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 10:53:09 EST From: Mcsiff@aol.com Subject: BELTS & SQUATTING <> ***As you and most others on this list have discovered, though there is an approximately general manner of executing all the lifts, there is a great deal of individual variation. You have to experiment (and not just with light weights because your technique tends to change with degree of loading) to find out what suits you best. Sometimes some fairly minor changes can produce large differences in performance, such as position of the head, type of grip and breathing pattern, so don't ever believe that you have to make big changes in technique to make big differences in performance! If indeed your position, as assessed by some competent lifters and coaches, does need some changes, by all means listen, but introduce those changes in a subtle manner that is not too different from what you are already using. If you are not quite sure what your technique looks like, video yourself in action and analyse what you see, preferably with the aid of someone who is knowledgeable. Then, suppose you feel that it might be helpful to assume a wider stance, change your foot spacing (or toe turn-out) by only a small amount and get used to this new position before working heavy. If that works well, increase the load, then you can try a further small change and so on up to a sensible limit. Dr Mel C Siff Denver, USA mcsiff@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:12:09 -0800 From: "Dean Reece" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Wide Squat Width Doug and Wes, you guys are giants! I'm 5'8" with a 29 inch inseam. My upper thigh, from the crotch to the center of my knee, measures just about 13 inches. I weigh about 255. I've been told I'm built to squat. When I adopted the wide stance (feet touching the edges of the power rack) about fourteen months ago, I could not hit depth RAW with a heckuva lot of weight, but my raw sq has gone up by about 200 lbs plus (at least, but I have yet to test exactly how much I can do raw and rested). This is nothing spectacular, as it just involves simple physics. As you widen your stance, you shorten the lever of your upper thigh and thus the amount you can potentially squat improves. It does take your body some time to adjust to this style, however. You hips become your weak point. Once you strengthen your hips you improve very very fast. > I'm curious of the width of people's squat stances are. After reading > Wade's description mine seems very wide. From my inside heals the distance > is 30" to 32" with my toes flared out 30 degrees. My pant inseam is 32" > and I am 5'11" and 200 pounds. > Doug my stance is about the same width as yours. I would like to widen my stance even further, (hips become the weak point again, strengthen them, move up quickly) however that would necessitate getting out of the rack, and I don't have a lot of spotting options. At the POWERHOUSE gym in Seattle (by SeaTac) they have what I would call a Safety Squat machine. Its a SS yoke w/ no bar and its connected to a variable height stand while being hinged from the wall. The weights spur of the yoke kinda like the bars of a leg press. I thought about my squat stance as soon as I saw this unit, as I could experiment with ultra wide stance squatting (like the monolift guys do) safely and without a spotter. Dean Reece Aurora, Oregon Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:56:52 -0500 From: Rick Matthews Subject: Strength_List: Wade, squats This is in response to Wade's questions about squatting, bar placement, width, etc. below. I'm probably not the person to be answering any of the technical questions about squatting stances, etc. because I have no expertise in the area except my own experiences and some limited reading/knowledge of physiology, etc. To make matters worse, I've only been PLing for a little over a year and am only now closing in on a 500 lb squat at 255. Having said that, it seems to me that if your stance is really wide AND the bar is placed lower on the back, it is going to force you to lean forward to maintain your balance. I think also that is why the first movement in this stance is normally the butt moving back. There may be someone out there that can squat a lot with a wide stance, shins perpendicular and the back upright, but I've never personally witnessed it. (like this picture; sitting in a chair). 0 | | | |-----| | | | I have no idea if anyone can squat a lot of weight in this fashion, but my hunch is no. Most of the wide stance squatters in PL keep their knees perpendicular while leaning forward (like this other bad picture:) 0 / / /----| | | In most cases, the forward lean is usually even greater than what I've tried to draw. However, the first movement is usually "back" then down. The other way to do it is to like the OLers, with the bar higher, back straighter, stance about shoulder width, and with some bend at the knees. 0 / / /----/ / / Now, I'm not a physics person or a physiologist, but it seems to me that the more one has to lean forward to keep their COG, the more likely it is that stress will be placed on the lower back. On the other hand, it is likely (although I don't know this for sure) that with a narrow stance similar to OL with the back more upright the stress may be spread out more between the knees and the lower back. Other factors which probably play into this are the relative lengths of one's leg bones, where the bar is positioned on the back, the relative length of one's torso to legs, etc. But, in general, I think the wider the stance is relative to these things, the more likely one is to place additional stress on the lower back. If your lower back is healthy and strong, this might not be an issue. Although I admit I may be completely wrong on these observations, I have no problem with other listers NICELY correcting me :) My general thoughts are that there is nothing "wrong" with narrow stance squats if they don't cause you pain/discomfort and you maintain your COG. While I'm fairly new to PLing, I have always been curious as to why so many PLers favor wide stances to narrower ones. Seems to me (and Dr. Siff can correct me if I'm wrong), but a good many OLers have done very impressive squats with stances that are much narrower than most PLers. Is it due to a matter of preference, or is it based on research? Rick Matthews Athens, OH Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 11:11:15 -0600 From: "Dave S." Subject: Strength_List: Squatting in front of mirror I've been preparing for a meet on March 18th and everything has been going fairly well. Yesterday I turned the squat rack around so I couldn't watch myself in the mirror...I almost took a header, but I caught myself. Has anyone else had this problem and what can you do about it? It was very frustrating for me, I just hope I have enough time to correct this. Also I seem to be getting stale, I have about 4 weeks to go before the contest and the weights aren't feeling like they did 2 weeks ago. I may have peaked, what can I do to get back on track again? I was thinking about dropping the weight a little and doing sets of 5-6 then work back up to a double or triple. Any comments would be appreciated. Dave Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:36:15 -0800 From: "Dean Reece" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Squatting in front of mirror This is funny Dave, as I had exactly the opposite experience last Saturday. I'm used to squatting facing away from the mirror and Saturday worked out in a gym that was pretty cool, but I couldn't turn around in the rack. I ended up successfully using the same technique I use to keep my head up when facing away from the mirror and just focused on a spot on the ceiling (only via the mirror this time) throughout the duration of the lift. When my eyes drop to straight ahead, I lose about 30 lbs or so off my squat (eyes down bar stalls, head up and it moves again) Dean Reece Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:53:54 -0600 From: "Dasko, Dan" Subject: RE: Strength_List: Squatting in front of mirror In the gym that I lift at, the weight room has mirrors on all the walls. I'm surprised they don't have them on the ceiling . The only way I could cover up the mirror would be to bring a bed sheet. So, what I do is squat with my eyes closed. I do open them at the top of the movement, but during the action, I close my eyes. Now, I do squat inside a power rack with the pins set, and I'm not doing a ME. I've been thinking that this helps me develop better awareness of my body position. Dan Subject: Re: "It is all you, man!" From: "EliteFTS" Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:59:43 -0800 I am not to sure about the "Its all you man" quote, then again I am not to sure about anything that has to do with bodybuilding. I do however know the importance of verbal cueing in the sport of power lifting. With all the technique involved in the sport, for example the power squat (head into the bar,knees out, push the feet out, arched back, belly into belt, elbows tucked, shoulders blands together, sit you butt back, weight on heals, hold your air, just to name some), any lifter will need cueing to reinforce a certain problems with their technique. It is not good enough to just ell them before the lift. This has to become implanted in their brain so it will become automatic. Every lifter will have their own cueing based upon their own technique. Dave Tate Elite Fitness Systems Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 10:57:55 -0500 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: The open groin thingee. Was talking to a guy in our gym last night (Wes and I) and we were discussing his squat form. In the course of this talk I kind of had a revelation in that a few little pieces came together in my mind. Another way to describe the open groin phenom that Eddy Coan talked about would be this. Okay, we all understand the thing about getting onto the outside and rear of the feet, well to do this you can't just "roll" your foot. You need to externally rotate the upper leg at the hip to accomplish this. It is a very subtle motion and most of us probably do it without even realizing it. I have been doing this again and didn't even realize this is what I was doing. Anyway, once you get this little rotation of the upper leg (almost feels like it pulls your pelvis under you slightly) then do the sit down and back. It will put the emphasis on a slightly different group of muscles and it will also allow you to stay more vertical in your torso (gets the upper legs out of the way). It is different then just pushing your knees out to the sides. If you, in a sense, rotate your knees out to the sides it makes a world of difference. The catch is this though, you can really drive your hips under you at the turnaround but, you must drive your shoulders through the bar at the same time (similar to what may have been happening to Steve Hil) or you are going to wind up tucking your butt. I am curious to know if anyone else has noticed this little tidbit or uses it. I was, in the past, more or less just pushing my knees out and rolling my feet to get my legs out of the way and still using a lot of erectors to get the top half of the lift. Since I have stumbled onto this again, it has made a big difference. In addition, since I can put the pieces of the motion together in my mind I understand what it is I am trying to accomplish with it and it makes it easier to see why and how to do it. Any and all comments welcome...especially from you good squatters out there. - -wade of BORG Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2000 12:18:48 -0500 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: bench help >Hello all, I have a uspf meet on march12th. So I decided to make this week >my last heavy week of training. Squatted an easy 435 mon. But for the last 2 >months I have been getting a lot of pain in my forearms the day after >squatting. Today went for a 315 bench and missed it. I should never miss that >I have been benching thru the pain. but I think it is getting to the point >where it is starting to hurt my bench. It feels like i have no control of the >bar when i'am lowering it.I know louie says that bicep and forearm pain comes >from holding bar in the squat. I have to get this taken care of bench day >has become a nightmare any suggestions? MMB ***One thing you can check is what happens to your shoulder girdle at the turn around of the squat. If your chest isn't staying up and your shoulders arched then you are in essence caving slightly and this will torque your elbows/forearms. Try to maintain a tighter arch in the hole and keep the focus of keeping your arms back on the shoulder arch rather than torqueing the elbow joint. I don't know if that explanation makes a clear enough picture but, it helped me when I had a bout of elbow pain going from squatting. - -wade Lansing, Mi. Home: silverback@psn.net Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:25:44 EST From: Bahyord@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: Half Squat A new guy at my gym (looked like a bodybuilder) was squatting with almost 600 for 7 to 10 reps (I wasn't paying attention at first). I would say that he was only going about halfway down. My question is how much would that be if he was doing real squats to parallel? I always go deep so I have no idea. He was VERY powerful looking and I am wondering how strong he would be if he was lifting "properly." Although I am sure he is still a lot stronger than I am :-( Dave Royhab Leesburg, VA Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 20:30:01 EST From: Diesel93@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: Half Squat One of my 'friends' used to do 1/2 squats w/ ~ 405 and i managed to talk him into going to just below parallel one workout, and he maxed at 185. Then he complained he was so sore the next day he would not squat like that again -- WHIMP! - --Eric Adolph http://www.crosswinds.net/~powerlifter2000 Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 21:29:22 -0600 From: "Allen Mays" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Half Squat It's hard to give a good estimate. Resistance training is specific to the angle at which the training is being done(+/- 15-20 degrees). That is, if you train the squat at 90 degrees, you will increase your squat strength at 90 degrees. If you only squat at 40 or so degrees, then you will get stronger at up to 60 degrees of ROM. From the sound of it, this guy would have to pretty much rely on his natural strength if he were to do a below parallel squat. Don't confuse size for strength. Allen Lubbock, TX Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 00:14:32 -0600 From: Roger Subject: Re: Strength_List: Half Squat If he has never done full squats, he might be lucky to do 400. It all really depends on how week he is at the bottom of the motion. Roger Broeg Burlington Iowa Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 14:20:04 MST From: "Loren Chiu" Subject: Strength_List: Re: Strength-Digest: V1 #1840 Allen, the degrees of specificity was done with isometric exercise only. It's hard to say whether or not the same would apply for dynamic movements. I would say that what the person could full squat is very little (relative to what he can half squat). The mechanical advantage of the lever system during the squat is greatest above parallel, whereas it is least at a point just below parallel. What this means is that the top half is the easiest to perform by far and being strong through this range of motion does not guarentee strength through the sticking point. Loren Chiu Subject: Re: SQUAT SUBSTITUTES From: Mcsiff@aol.com Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 07:22:32 -0800 On 3/1/00, "Mr . . Uxo . . ." wrote: << If one would have to lay off squats for a while due to a lower back problem, what would be the #1 replacement exercise for building overall Leg strength and size? >> ***Squats! Actually, squats while standing on large blocks with the load hanging between your legs from a belt around the waist or hips, so that there is no added load pressing down along the length of your spine. You can also do this with one of those "leaper" systems which involve wear a belt which is attached to a platform via thick elastics. For added resistance, you can improvise simply by adding more elastics. You can try do one-legged squats with no added load, alternate leg bench stepping or even dragging a loaded sled around a field by means of a belt and rope attached around your waist (my powerlifting colleague, Louie Simmons, really likes this one!). You can also use a seated bicyle with the resistance geared up so that you cannot do more than a few reps for your last few sets. Don't be misled into thinking that leg presses are an entirely satisfactory substitute for squats if you have back problems, since one often tends to compress the lumbar spine or cause posterior pelvic tilt that can worsen your condition. If you use them, just make very sure that you don't compress the spine, allow the butt to tuck under or the pelvis to tilt or twist in any direction. If you insist, you may do part range leg extensions if they don't bother your knees too much, but do them by almost standing, so that the hip is much more fully extended. Those few should keep you entertained and hypertrophied for a while. Dr Mel C Siff Denver, USA Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2000 08:56:50 -0600 (CST) From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: The Butt-Tuck Steve wrote, > Was wondering if that anyone does this at the bottom of the sq ? I >try and take note of every person that I see sq. and I saw a fellow today >doing some good sq but at the bottom he did what I call a butt tuck, >pelvis toward ankles, it gave him a rebound effect. Is this dangerous, >good, what ? Would love to hear some >from Keith H. Wade and all the >other good sqtrs. I'm not a great squatter, but I do like to analyze technique. It sounds almost like what I call a 'modified dive' technique. In the modified dive the lifter lowers the weight under control, then when they are near the bottom they quickly drop the hips and immediately drive them forward. This technique was mastered by Fred Hatfield, perhaps the greatest squatter of all time. Fred squatted over 1,000 weighing about 255 lbs and still holds records in several divisions. The dive activates the stretch reflex and allows for a very powerful contraction of the hip/hamstring/glute muscles. Several key things to make this work. 1. The tuck or drop and resultant driving forward of the hips can't drive the knees forward. This is why SImmons group stresses pushing the knees out and Coan talks about opening the groin. Both techniques allow you to drive the hips forward without the knees coming forward. Actually I think they are just a different description of the same technique myself. 2. The drop can't be severe enough to create too much momentum with the weight going downward. I caution the lifters I train to lower the weight under control and then to 'dip' just below parallel and then drive the hips forward, not up. 3. Keep the stomach locked by pushing the abs out. It is too soon to exhale at this point, but there can initially be a tendency to do so. I'm hoping I got the correct idea here - its hard to tell exactly what you mean. But it sounds like the hips being driven into the bar in a sumo deadlift. It can work well. Keith Hobman Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada 3200 wrote: > > I'm a newbie and having troubles with squats. I know that squats are THE > excercies to do, but for some reason my knees get wobbly when I get down > near parallel, I'm almost afraid to think what would happen if I went all > the way parallel (or below). Anyone know of anything I can do to get my > knees stronger, or should I just keep squatting with little/no weight > until I can do it with stability, then add weight? The latter. Knee stability should come with practice but you need to keep the weight low until it does. Ideally your knees should track right over your 2nd toe (not breaking in or out) so that it what you should be shooting for when you squat. Lyle John Hulbert wrote in message news:38E32843.CFEBFE4C@leeds.ac.uk... > At risk of going against the grain I agree with your friend and his > advisors. I suspect that deep squats will potentially worsen his condition > and seated leg extensions should be better for him. However, I have been > around long enough to see trends of thought come and go and I am interested > to know any cited work to indicate otherwise. My understanding is that > below parallel the knee joint destabilises and this is why it is considered > bad, personally I feel that with good technique and the right weight > problems here can be avoided but the only work I have seen advises against > deep squats. > > I'd love to see this cleared up, > > John > I dug around in my pile of saved citations and this is what I have for studies (don't ask me what they are... I haven't looked at them in ages). Chandler TJ, et al. (1989). The effect of the squat exercise on knee stability. Med Sci Sports Exer. 21(3): 299-303. Chandler TJ and Stone MH. (1991). The squat exercise in athletic conditioning: a review of the literature. NSCA Journal. 13(5):58-59. Escamilla RF, et al. (1998). Biomechanics of the knee during closed kinetic chain and open kinetic chain exercises. Med Sci Sports Exer. 30(4):556-569. Panariello RA, et al. (1994). The effect of the squat exercise on anterior-posterior knee translation in professional football players. Am J Sports Med. 22(6):768-773. Steiner ME, et al. (1986). The effect of exercise on anterior-posterior knee laxity. Am J Sports Med. 14(1):24-29. Wretenberg P, et al. (1996). High- and low-bar squatting techniques during weight-training. Med Sci Sports Exer. 28(2):218-224. I also believe Testosterone mag, vol.88 (Jan. 21, 2000) had a pretty decent article on this. The general clinical consensus is that there is no evidence that squats below parallel destabilize the knee joint, as you say. The knee joint is meant to function under a load through a full range of motion. Studies done on OLers and cultures who squat instead of sit show that there is no appreciable degeneration from long term full depth squatting, and moreover OLers tend to have healthier knees than the couch potato population. The studies which argued that squats were bad for the knees are a couple of flawed pieces from the 1950s, IIRC. Knee problems due to pronation are usually solved with a combination of strategies: strengthening, flexibility, and orthotics. The key thing here is what the friend can do pain-free. If deep squats cause pain, then keep them in mind as a future goal but don't do them. Front squats are often a very good substitute, and allow depth without difficulty. Knee extensions, unless it's the very top part of the rep, are quite iffy given their propensity for shearing force on the knee joint. Krista -- ------------------------- http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html mistresskrista@home.com Dale Jung wrote in message ... >Is the point of the 20 rep squat routine to go all out and kill your legs in >one set? Yes, but it kills your whole body, not just your legs. You WILL suffer, and another 20 reps will be impossible for a week at least, if you're using enough weight. I think there are a few misconceptions about the whole 20-rep squat thing. I've seen one or two in the gym I use putting some weight on the bar, doing 20 squats, up-down-up-down-etc with no pauses for a breath or two, and the whole set is completed very quickly and without a heap of difficulty. That's not what I call 20-rep squats. My concept of 20-rep squats is different. Randall J Strossan, in his book "Supersquats", advocates taking a weight you can do 10 reps with, and doing 20 reps, pausing (with the bar still in position on your back) for breath when needed, and doing this 3 times a week, adding 5 lb to the bar each workout. For me, this is totally impossible. I've just started another try at the 20-rep scheme, which I'll be following for the next 6 - 8 weeks at most, but I'll be squatting ONCE a week. I will, however, be trying to add 5 lb to the bar every week or so, and I hope to add about 25 lb to the bar over the next few weeks. I started this 20-rep routine on Wednesday this week. I got the first 10 reps, and had to pause for a couple of breaths. Then I knocked out 2 more reps, and paused again, for another few breaths. Same again for the next 2 reps, and by this time I was wrecked and breathing like a Kentucky Derby winner. I had to pause after rep 16 for about 6 or 7 breaths, then knocked out another single rep. Then the same again for rep 18 and I wasn't going to be beaten by the last two reps. I paused after rep 18 for about eight or nine breaths and got rep 19, then another lot of huge deep breaths, a loud "One more", then down, and a victory roar on the way up :). I then re-racked the bar and had to stand for a full 3 minutes with my head on the bar until my breath and heart slowed down a little and the blackness retreated, then I lay down on a bench for another few minutes before continuing with the day's routine. That's 20-rep squats. Accept no substitute. 2 sets of that? If you can do another set, you must have an extra body hidden somewhere that you can slip in to when no-one's looking. Bear in mind, the wusses in your gym will think you're insane. :) Or should I ease up and do two sets? No. I think I'm supposed to do 1 >set but i've heard of people doing two sets. I dont know how though, I'm >usually crawling on the floor after the first set of 20. That's the way to do it. Stephen Mulholland mulhollands@rocketmail.com > >Regards, >Dale Jung > Matt Madsen wrote in message news:8dkstf$foh$1@grace.speakeasy.org... > In article <8dkq8e$vnu$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, wrote: > >He said, "you know, I'm just interested in people not hurting themselves, > >so I've been watching you, and you should keep your back straight when you > >squat." > > It sounds like you were rounding your back, and he gave you good advice. > If you've been trying hard to go deep, I can see how you'd start rounding > your back; it lowers the bar, and it requires less flexibility. Of course, > it's not so good for your back. I don't know about that. I hear the "back straight" thing from a lot of people who don't actually squat. They read it in books but don't try it out. One nimrod trainer at the university gym tried to demonstrate it to me and nearly fell over backwards. Usually when they say it, means "back upright" not "don't round", though again it's hard to say in this situation. The back stays more upright in highbar squats as opposed to low-bar PLing squats, though there is lots of individual variation. In my experience women tend to have more of a forward lean. A forward lean per se is not a problem. What is a problem is if the lift is initiated by the back, i.e. if the butt comes up and the shoulders stay down relative to it, then the lifter does a sort of good morning. You always want the shoulders to come up first, and this is done by focusing on driving through the heels and pushing the hips forward as you near the top. Lori, here's a tip. When standing in the start position, take a deep breath, pushing chest up and out. This is the spinal position you should keep through the movement. Have someone watch you to see if you a) round the upper back on the ascent and/or b) round the lower back at the bottom (i.e. tuck it under). And, of course, jpgs please. :) Krista Keith Hobman wrote: > > I agree with your analysis. Rounding is bad. Leaning forward - not > necessarily. Keith is right here. While the more you lean forward the more stress you put on the lumbar musculature (because you have a longer lever arm for the muscles to work against), this should pose no problem or injury risk as long as you don't round your back. The spine is built to handle some massive loads in its normal physiological position (i.e. normal lordotic and kyphotic curvatures depending on which part of the spine). One cadaver study I looked at argued that no human being is capable of squatting enough weight to actually harm (well, crush in this case) a vertebrae as long as it is in the proper anatomical position. Of course, if you round your back, well.....it's bad. Real bad. Like can be the end of a lifting carreer bad (if you blow a disk). Lyle Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:05:03 -0400 From: sbellon@juno.com Subject: Strength_List: Front Squats Well the past 2 weeks I have been doing max effort for front squats. I have several questions regarding this exercise. 1. I feel alot of tension above the patella. Is that normal? 2. Is there a best way to hold the bar? 3. I feel it in my butt and low back more than anywhere (muscularly speaking). Is that right? 4. This seems to be similar to a Zurcher squat with a different bar placement. True? Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 10:37:50 -0600 From: Jim Ferry Subject: RE: Strength-Digest: V1 #2040/Front squats Front squats do rely very heavily on your quad muscles, however it sounds like you are not going down far enough. I feel a lot of tension in my quads if I attempt to stop at powerlifting legal depth, in adition the lift is much harder if I don't go all the way down. With front squatting you realy need to take them down as far as your flexibility will allow. In my opinion the best way to hold a front squat is using the traditional clean grip, The reason why I feel the clean grip is the best is because it forces you to mantain an upright position, If you lean forward you will wind up dropping the bar. I have seen pictures in PLUSA of a front squatting harness in my book this thing is very bad because it allows the user to lean forward, and brings the lower back into the lift, and encourages very sloppy technique(the guy in the picture is leaning over way too much). Many people argue that it allows people with limited flexability to do front squats. The only thing this does is incourage bad technique, and allow prople to avoid corecting their flexability problems. If you feel the exercise is valuable then common sense dictates that you should spend some time and learn to do the exercise corectly. If you are feeling tension in your back then chances are you are leaning over, with the front squat your upper body needs to remain bolt upright, this places the majority of the stress on your legs, and glutes, I feel almost no involvement of my lower back except to keep my torso upright. My main soreness is with my glutes, hams, and quads. Jim Ferry Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 22:20:53 -0400 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: sore knees > My training partner has developed a case of very sore knees lately. A > little background on him: He's 5'11, 198, Thighs are longer than shins, he > relies on knee wraps and belt a little too much, his stance is about > shoulder width and he does a high bar squat, when he descends his back is > very upright and his knees float out past his toes, his butt tucks under > him. Dave, I have a similar build and tend to favor a somewhat narrower stance myself. Heels are about shoulder width ro a touch wider BUT, the caveat is that I turn my toes way out. This allows me to sit back into the squat and also keeps my knees out. It brings the strong hips and glutes into the movement but, also keeps my strong quads involved as well. I can sit nice and upright and it tracks my knees forward slightly but, not over my toes. In the not too distant past I was letting them go forward and I am in the process of battling back to keep my knees. They ache now and again but, slowly they are getting better. I don't think he has to convert to a wide stance WSB type squat as this isn't the only way to squat, and squat big. Have him try pointing his toes and sitting into his butt a little more, make sure he rotates his upper leg outward as he starts to descend as this will push his knees out. He should try to maintain the brunt of his weight on the rear and outer portion of his foot. I promise his knees will feel better and his squat will more than likely jump in the process...mine has. It sounds like he is set on squatting a certain style but, his build is designed for something else. Despite what anyone may say is the "best" way to squat...ya' gotta work with the levers and bodystyle that you have. Sometimes that means altering things to suit your individuality. His current style doesn't appear to do that. > I've tried to explain to him to widen his stance, put the bar lower on his > back and push his hips back when iniating the squat, he doesn't listen and > now his knees are really sore and he may not be able to train. Maybe try to convert him in smaller steps. Lower the bar slightly, and turn out his toes. First thing he needs to do though is get the inflammation out of his knees. Maybe some rest and ice, ice, ice for a bit to get them ready for some training again. > What should he do or can he do to rehab his knees, does anyone recommend > certain exercises or routine for him to follow. I've suggested that he get > away from the close stance and to work on his form as well as to use lighter > weights for more reps to flush blood into his injured areas, try MSM or > glucosamine. Anyone else have any ideas........ Those sound like reasonable ideas. Truth is, unless he decides to help himself then there isn't much you can do. Sounds kind of harsh but, I think it is the hard truth of it. If he wants to be hard headed and keep doing what he is doing and continue to injure himself then he will have to learn the lesson the hard way. If he is smart, he will heed you advice and start tweaking a failing groove before he cripples himself. There is a difference between "pushing" yourself and "hurting" yourself. Not trying to sound unsympathetic but, I have dealt with guys that just won't listen. They insist on doing it their way and no one else could possibly know what is good for them. Maybe your friend isn't this bad...I hope not as he is toying with something that could affect the rest of his life. Not just his lifting but, his everyday life too. Once you destroy your knees it is pretty damn hard to get them back...I would venture to say that few do. Anyway, I wish you and him the best of luck. I hope he listens to you. Good liftin' __________ - -wade of BORG Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:28:49 -0400 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Squat Question >>> Enigma2771@aol.com 05/22/00 08:10AM >>> Hi Folks! Can somebody tell me, what muscle / muscle group weakness causes the knees to float inward whilst rising up from a squat? And why would the knees going inward help? I use a pretty close stance for my training, and when going for a max (I can just get more that way). I feel that in relation to my deadlift I should be squating more though. "Everyone" (magazines, internet etc, etc) seems to say widen the stance to get more weight, but I lift less that way, and the knees coming in is where my sticking point is. Anyhow, any tips will be appreciated! Thanks, Simon Pitt Simon, I don't know if this is the answer for you but, something could try would be to turn your toes out. This way you still keep your relatively close stance but, will bring your stronger hips into the motion. You will need to drop weight a bit to get your hips up to speed but, they will come up quickly. IMO it is probably weaker hips that is causing your knees to float in (puts the stress right on the quads). Just make sure you keep your knees out and tracking directly over your toes if you turn your feet out...if they drift in then you are torquing the knee really hard and this could lead to problems. For what it is worth... - -wade of BORG Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:36:35 EDT From: Meljo824@aol.com Subject: Re: question on squat >where the bar rest on the shoulders and back just below the >neck ; this area is sore i tried to lift 350 pounds last evening could >not then i placed a towel across my shoulders , would this be permitted >in competition lifting ?? If not will this soreness decrease with time? jim,you have to ....SQUEEZE ...the back muscles really tight ,contract the traps and rear delts before you go under the bar,get in tight not too tight to bother your elbows ,then squeeze the muscles before u take ot the wght,this should eliminate the bar from sinking into your back, think about it, put something on your back without squeezing,it sinks down and rubs the bones and it feels like a ton, take a deep breath and squeeze the muscles in the back and then take it out of the rack , practice this it will help you , MAKE SURE THE BAR IS NOT TOO HIGH ON YOUR BACK ,IT SHOULD BE RESTING ON YOUR REAR DELTS , SIT BACK AND SQT,i hope this helps you out , age dosnt make a diffrence,saty healthy , JOEY A Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2000 08:49:07 -0700 From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: Strength_List: question on squat Jim, For most powerlifters, the bar should rest between the medial and rear delts. There is a 'notch or shelf' that will form thre when your arms are in position to hold the bar. Keep tight. It may be uncomfortable at first, especially if you are using a bar with good knurlings OR if the bar slips or rolls on your back. Try chalking your back and or wearing a sweatshirt when you train. The towel wouldn't be allowed in a meet. The soreness will decrease over time...you'll get those funny squat bar marks on your back like the rest of us....wait..you guys DO have those, right? Jason Burnell Hercules, Calif. Stephen wrote: > > Lyle McDonald wrote: > > > Stephen wrote: > I was told once to try to push the elbows out forward a little and keep the > back arched or straight. I know the weight becomes too heavy if I bend > forward at all. I worry about falling over backwards if I don't have soem > forward lean though. It's a matter of finding a happy medium. You can't keep the back completely straight up and down during a free bar squat or you'll tip over backwards. So you need a slight lean to keep the bar over your base of support. > Does the height of the bar across my back make a lot of difference on the > shear forces on my spine? yes and no. now we get into torque and this would be easier to demonstrate with a picture. Torque is defined as the force (in this case the weight on the bar + the weight of your body) times the perpendicular distance from the weight to the axis of rotation. Got that? Yeah, right. Ok, consider L4-L5 as the axis of rotation that we're worried about. Now, imagine a line going from the bar straight down. The distance between this line and the axis of rotation determines the torque (which determines teh shear across the spine). If you're back is straihgt up and down the line goes through L4-L5, no distance = no torque = no shear. As you lean forward, the line starts to get further from the axis of rotation so more torque and more shear. But what happens if you move the bar higher on your neck (for any given lean forward), the line moves forwards, so more torque = more shear. The problem with this argument being that the higher position typically lets people squat more upright (because if yo'ure upright with the bar low on your back, it will roll off), so it gets a little more confusing. Like I said, a graphic would be most helpful. > I have read some stuff in here about positioning the feet heels down. Does > that mean flat footed? I think I tend to roll a little forward in the hole. Your feet should stay on the floor at all times or you are asking for an injury. If you can't keep them down, you need to stretch your calvesa nd limit your depth to the point where they won;t come up. > I am also interested in feedback on how wide the feet should WRT the > shoulders and the angle that the feet should point. I naturally stand with > feet a little wider than shoulders and feet nearly straight forward but I > have seen some guys going huge with wide stances and feet almost > balletically outward. There is a lot of variance and personal preference for this. In general, I prefer a medium stance, shoulder width or a little bit wider, with toes angled out anywhere from 15-30 degrees (pointing straight ahead = zero degrees). PL's will frequently use more extreme stances to move more weight, but it's not something I would recommend for the average trainee. Lyle Chris C wrote: > > Last night I had a patient who underwent bilateral fasciotomies of his > thighs. He was a skinny 19 yr old kid who had done 150 consecutive > reps of Tyson squats. > > The next day his legs were so sore he could barely walk, and he > thought he'd "walk it off". > > The swelling in the muscle became to severe that it became compressed > within the fascia sheath that surrounds it, and the tissue basically > began to die from being "choked" to death. > > As the breakdown products of muscle degradation reach the kidneys, it > can become poisonous, and sure enough, the kid developed > rhabdomyolysis. His urine looked like root beer. There was an article in Discover (Vital Signs) a few months ago about the same thing: couple of prisoners who decided to have a bodyweight squat-off, did several thousand reps apiece, both ended up in the hospital with rhabdomyolysis. > > I tell this tale for two reasons. 1. I'm just waiting for the > sci.med.nutcase people to log in and use this as proof that eating too > much protein will damage your kidneys. > > 2. I finally have the excuse I need to abandon squats. No, just high rep ones. Lyle In article <8j4c15$i60$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>, "Marc" wrote: > I hope this topic hasn't been overly discussed already, but I need help with > the depth of my squats. How far past parallel should I squat? Will I feel > a point where my flexibility will limit me without breaking form? Do I need > to use a wider stance in order to squat deeper? Will my already immense > muscle-ass grow to behemoth proportions? > Marc, By far the most "productive" and maybe surprising, also the safest way to squat is the full "butt to heels" squat. Proper squatting technique is essential though (feet flat on ground, knees aligned with over feet, stay tight and DON'T bounce out of the bottom, etc). Going through the full range of motion allows you to strength the muscles through a full range of motion, which will strengthen the knees and help protect them from injury. People may tell you to only go to parallel, but do you perform biceps curls only halfway? For additional support info here's a rather lengthy quote from Strength coach Charles Poliquin about the matter: "Squatting to parallel (legs bent 90 degrees) not only makes the exercise less effective but, additionally, it increases the risk of injury. First of all, by not squatting the full range of motion, one doesn't maintain proper lumbosacral bodymechanics. When performing the squat movement, the sacrum undergoes a process known as nutation (it tilts forward, relative to the two ilia on either side of it). At approximately 90 degrees of knee bend, the sacrum tilts back (a process known as counternutation) and sets the lifter up for lower back pain. In order to perform a full squat, flexibility and range of motion must be maintained in the lumbar spine and SI joint, as well as in such muscles as the iliopsoas and hip external rotators—piriformis, gemelli, etc. If the lifter can't squat past 90 degrees of knee bend without the heels raising or the body bending excessively forward at the waist, but can squat all the way to the floor while holding onto something, we know that there are some muscle imbalances in regard to the pelvis/lumbosacral region (iliopsoas, external hip rotators, erector spinae) as opposed to a knee or foot/ankle dysfunction. Additionally, since the hip joint is considered by many authors as the "steering mechanism for the leg," improper pelvis, hip, and lumbosacral mechanics could manifest down the kinetic chain as chronic or recurring knee/ankle problems. Thus, regular performance of the full squat offers a "screen" for the athlete of his or her lumbosacral/pelvic flexibility, which may prevent injury or muscle imbalances long before they become chronic. Parallel squats also may be potentially damaging to the knee joint. The original data on full squats causing ligament laxity was obtained in an uncontrolled manner. Recent attempts to replicate these studies haven't shown any increased laxity or knee pain/dysfunction from doing full squats as opposed to parallel squats. Furthermore, ask any orthopedic surgeon at what degree of knee bend does one perform the Drawer test—90 degrees. Why? Because in this position, the knee joint is the most unstable, and if you were trying to assess the integrity of the cruciate ligaments, you'd want the least amount of interference from other structures as possible. Bend the knee to full flexion. How much does the tibia move on the femur anteriorly or posteriorly? Very little. However, do the same test at 90 degrees of flexion, and you'll get considerably more movement. Therefore, you can imagine how much force is on the knee ligaments if the athlete is descending with a weight on their shoulders, and then at 90 degrees—the most unstable point—reversing the momentum and accelerating in the exact opposite direction. Couple this with the fact that most, if not everyone, are capable of squatting considerably more weight to the parallel position than the full squat position, and you've set your body up for muscular imbalances, yet again." Jon Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. John Carlo wrote: > > i got tired of doing full squats with 5 other guys and they do as much > or more then me but i notcie they go about 4,5 inches above 90 degrees > ,where i go in the hole maybe 3,4 inch below ----so instead of dopinmg > there style of squats i brang in a video camara showing them they are > way off --these guys really believed they were doing full squats --does > anyone else hear have guys like that in their gym who brag how they > squat a certain number and they are not even doing full squats?? Most people don't even realize how far they are cutting their depth. If you want an amusing example of this, ask someone who you've just seen squat 4" above parallel how deep he went and he will most likely assure you it was to parallel. Similarly: I heard a guy today tell someone he felt like his back was flat during stiff-legged deadlifts, right after watching him do the set with a back as round as a banana. Lyle Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 09:58:30 EDT From: Mcsiff@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: ASK THE MASTER? Australian fitness consultant Ian King distributes a newsletter and calls himself "The Master" in his Question and Answer section. Here are some interesting comments about squatting in one of his most recent newsletters (8 June 2000) which some of you might enjoy analysing. Yes, all of these flat back, abs in and glute tightening suggestions have been warmly discussed in the past, but some of you may have some useful specific comments or references to add about the masterly advice below. - ------------------------------- Ask The Master Q1: I recently purchased your video on leg training. I found it very helpful in understanding your requirements on "suck (abs), sit (descend) and squeeze (ascending - glutes)". Incorporating this into my squats is very, very helpful. ..... King: You seem to be on track with the use of the suck and squeeze techniques. There is not the similar danger with the knee sleeve as with a belt. With a belt you are teaching your abs to push out against the belt when ideally you want them pulling in. Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 15:56:53 -0500 From: Jan Baggerud Larsen Produktsjef 8366 Subject: RE: Strength_List: GM/squat combo. I'm in love >From the article "Back and Ab training": http://deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/louie/ls4.htm "Combo squat/good morning. This one is very important for learning to extend all the squat and deadlift muscles. With a moderate stance and the bar held low on the back, bend forward until the back is close to the parallel to the floor. Then roll the lower back over and descend into a full squat. To stand up, straighten out the legs. This is very effective for building tremendous extension strength, as well as tremendous tightness. You feel like your eyes will pop out when you're in the bottom. " Jan Burton Kent wrote: > > How can I get more power in the bottom of the squat? I've got bad knees, so I > always squat deep, but I get stuck at the bottom, dammit. you need stronger glutes and hamstrings to get you started out of the bottom. Consider pause squats (squat down, pause for a second while staying tight, then up). Or starting your squats from the bottom position in the power rack (drop the weight a lot if you try this). Weighted reverse hyperextensions if you have a way to do them would be good too. Lyle wrote in message news:8l218t$upi$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > I recently started doing full squats (or, I should say, *trying* to do > full squats). I'm having a few problems, so I'm looking for > suggestions and advice. Squats have always been my worse lift. > > It takes me quite a few warm-up squats to get loose enough to get down > all the way. Is this a problem? Should I not be going so deep if I > can't get down there with just one or two warm-ups? I sometimes go > through a whole set of 8 - 10 partial squats just to get everything > working correctly. Also, when I'm actually doing the full squats, I > find that I can only do, at the most, 3 in a set. My legs just can't > push any more, even with very light weight. If I add some real weight, > I'm capable of only singles, and sometimes I catch myself moving up > with my ass first, instead of with my legs (but I do catch myself). > So...I'm wondering if maybe I am not ready to be doing these very deep, > ass-to-the-floor squats. advice, PLEASE!! > -Lori- > That's what warmup sets are for. That's why they call them warmup sets and not... uhhh... whatever. Anyway, one problem that older trainees have compared to the snotnosed gym tots is that a greater length of warmup time is required for proper joint mobility. Has anyone recommended a few minutes minutes of light cardio before your squat sets? Might be something to think about. Try this. 5-7 minutes of light cardio 2-3 minutes of light static stretching 2-3 warmup sets of dynamic stretching under light loads (IOW, light warmup sets taking the joints thru as full a ROM as you can), done relatively slowly, with a pause in the stretched position at the bottom Finally, your desired # of working sets At the end of the workout, more intense static stretching. While some argue that static stretching is not necessarily correlated with ROM, it can't hurt if you don't overdo it. Warmup sets provide both a physiological and neurological foundation for a proper workout. Don't be ashamed to do the warmup that you need. Your body will thank you for it. Krista -- ------------------------- http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html mistresskrista@home.com florin wrote: > > I believe in deep squats, and I do them, but in all the years > I've been lifting -- mostly in university gyms -- I have seen > very few people doing deep squats. It's because they're hard and you have to work up to them. One has to start out with PANSY weights until stabilizer strength and flexibility can support one doing this. As George said, Ego often gets in the way of this. > Moreover, with NO exception, personal trainers, football > players, football coaches(!) they all tell you that going > deeper than 90 is bad for your knees, and that even 90 is > dangerous. I have never seen a football player--let alone a > track and field athlete--going lower that horizontal. What you do in the gym depends on your goals. I assure that Olympic lifters go deep and their coaches tell them to go deep - because it's required for their sport. BBers may not go deep if they can develop their looks without them. Powerlifters go just below parallel, because it's required in competition. As Louie Simmons says, why train for a region of movement you don't need. This is important in competition, but if you're not competing, you need to decide what's important to you and what works for you. Here are two demos (to add to Thai Boxer's) you may have to cut and paste this one: http://www.planetkc.com/exrx/WeightExercises/Quadriceps/BBFullSqu at.html http://www.wsu.edu/athletics/strength/bksquat.htm I know I've seen some references to knee strength and squatting - I will have to look for them, though. But Hatfield addresses this as Myth #1 in his long article on squats. http://www.drsquat.com/articles/sq.htm As to gym trainer ignorance, consider how much (aka, little) is required to become a "trainer." Although I don't want to say they are all categorically bad, they're only as good as their training and experience, and there's nothing formal about it. Hope this helps, Selene (squatter in absentia) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 11:34:13 -0400 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Squatting Technique Steve, I do a form of dive bomb after about 1/2 way down. I don't dive all the way but, rather dive into the hole. I don't know enough to say if this is benficial to just a certain type of bodystyle/squat stance so you need to decipher if it is for you but, consider that everyone has a stretch reflex and that is what this is supposed to maximize. A couple things that I feel are important if you are going to do this. 1) Make sure your groove is solid...and I mean instinctual. The quicker you drop the easier it is to just plop down and not come down into the proper position (i.e. that back, low bar spot we all know and love in PL). I watched Rob Wagner dunk 782 like nothing @ 181 at Nationals using a dive bomb type descent. He went down fast and came back up even faster...with a narrow stance even!! Thing with Rob though, and this is speculation but I am pretty confident it is correct, he is extremely confident of his groove and has practiced this methodology sufficiently to be able to do it with max weight. This is my rationale for only diving the last half/third. I spend the initial part of the lift getting my knees out and set back optimally for me, then dive with it. If I try to dive right from the start my knees come forward and I tend to cave in the hole and this gets ~really~ ugly looking. 2) Make sure you are tight going into the hole. The stretch will only happen if you are solid in the middle. I think you probably put more stress on your middle as it acts like a shock absorber somewhat with a type of free fall too. Lots of midsection work to keep yourself solid. You don't want to cave and round when the weight is coming down fast. 3) Do a consistant amount of speed work too. I feel this will get your timing up to accomodate the fast turnaround. Believe me when I say, if you hit it right you are going to BLAST out of the hole! My second at Nats. I set up crappy and "lowered" the weight into the hole (waaayyy too deep I might add ). I got most of the way up with but, started over backwards. When I retook it on my 3rd and did the dive into the hole...I was up before I even realized I had turned around...literally!! It was so fast and so effortless...well, the ascent anyway . If you aren't used to that quick turnaround then you can get into the habit of "catching" the weight about 1/2 way up and doing a form of good morning with help immensely with the aformentioned "catching" phenomena. Granted I am far from an expert squatter so take all this with a grain of salt. Hopefully it may spark something that makes sense and you can use something to get your own version rolling but, those are a few points that I feel have been helpful to keep in mind and try to apply since I started doing this. So, for what it is worth...good liftin' - -wade of BORG Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 23:56:19 -0700 From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: Strength_List: Visualization/Meditation Taggert Doll wrote: > Do any of you practice visualization or meditation for max attempts? > Anybody incorporate these practices into their normal training? > Tagg, Yes and no. When I squat, I always have some mental steps I run through as I approach the bar. These steps help me get my positioning and ensure that all mysets/ reps are the same. (Not yet there but I'm at the point where most are close and I can usually tell what I screwed up on immediately. I don't visualize the lift itself, rather I visualize each step and what it means to a successfl lift. My philosophy has always been that if I do the work in the gym, get enough rest and eat enough then meet day is pretty easy. To that end, the mental checkpoints ensure the I'll get my training reps and thus reinforce my belief that the lift will be successful. At one point I went so far as to write the steps on 3x5 cards. I'd read them before every set.... In case anyone is interested, here is the list in order and what each step means: HANDS - hands go to same spot on bar, left hand first then right, middle fingers on lines SHOULDERS - get shoulders under bar. I always duck under, get a stretch and find "the spot" where the bar rests FEET - feet about a foot apart under bar HIPS - here I get my hips under me and wiggle into the bar so I'm nice and tight for the lift off AIR - air into stomach and chest and arch back UP - the lift off the racks HOLD (new) - while writing this I remembered a new step I need to add to the list. Hold. When taking the bar out of the racks, I hold to allow the weights/bar to settle. I don't want to take my first step back while the bar is moving. 1 - first step is straight back....just enough to clear the racks about half the length of my foot. Step is with right foot. 2 - second step is left foot to side 3 - third step is right foot out to side HOLD (new) - again, letting bar settle BIG AIR - big breath in, abs against belt or just tight if not using a belt. SPOT - (new) Pick spot on opposing wall/ceiling and hold gaze. I have a tendency to drop head or move focus point during lift. Need to stay.....focussed on my spot. BUTT BACK, KNEES OUT: This is really a cue to remind me to sit back and keep my knees out over my feet. It's also the last command/cue. After that, I'm sort of on auto pilot. While writing this, I recalled that I needed to add the new cues to the old list. Time to break out the 3x5s again. I guess it's also time to make lists for the bench and dead..... A note, when I perform the steps on my list perfectly the lift is always successful and usually feels easy. When I'm off a bit I usually make the lift but it's hard and/or awkward. Not a good thing confidence wise..... I haven't really done that for the bench or the dead (well a little) but when training for my last meet, I gained a lot of confidence following CTs advice. I was able to handle weights that I wasn't accustomed to. That increased my confidence and I knew I could lift the weights on meet day. Only sort of visualized the actual lift but there was no doubt in my mind that I could lift the weights on the bar. A new experience for me as far as the bench goes. - -- Jason W. Burnell STRENGTH ONLINE: http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/ Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2000 14:11:14 -0400 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Strength_List: Tightness in the core This one phrase: "tightness in the core" really struct a cord with me as something I have never thought about while performing a lift. I think I have just assumed that having a belt on and lifting really heavy weight will ensure that I have a "tight core". Maybe not... On max effort lifts, should I actually be consciously tensing my abdomon and back to ensure that I am "tight"? And, should I be doing this for all lifts: squat, deadlift and bench, as well as ME lifts? **This is a tough one and kind of individual. I don't think that just putting on a belt will insure a tight midsection but, some people naturally pick things up and their bodies will respond on automatic very rapidly so it comes to you individually in some sorts. Personally, I am very aware of setting my abs (I don't think about my back except to tighten the shoulders/neck). Maybe it is a result of my back problems but, I feel much more confident when I go through the physical and mental step of setting them. Big breath, push it low and flex the abs hard...I don't push them out per se but, the hard flex at the end expands the lower abs into the belt as well as my obliques. Once I do that I don't think about them anymore through the lift, from that point I let the body do what it does with the caveat that I don't let them relax anymore than what I start them at. I always make sure to make that initial set though. Like I said earlier though, that is what I do and may or may not work for you. It makes sense to me that to sort of prime your body for the impending stress it is going to endure this helps to set the stage, so to speak...like gripping the bar tight before a bench to prepare for a big bench. Whether there is any validity to that or not it seems to help me prepare mentally and I tend to respond physically when I get little cues like that. On the flip side though...if you think about the abs too much then you can almost paralyze them from working since you can't function that quickly consciously to fire everything (read: all the muscles) during those big compound lifts at the right intensity and frequency (at least, I can't...I think most people operate on an 'unconscious' almost pre-programmed schedule for max attempts). I would say, if you just set your abs hard prior to a start of the lifts and hold it then your body will maintain/increase/decrease as needed to make the lift happen. Mentally you will have set the stage for this and it is one less factor to consider when you do a 1RM. Most of my best max lifts have felt almost effortless as I am not very conscious of anything except the start and the finish. For what it is worth and hope there is something that is helpful. Good liftin' - -wade Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 08:25:03 PST From: "Dean Reece" Subject: Re: Squats & Blood Pressure First, loosen your belt. You should be able to wiggle it around with your abs relaxed. Second, suck in a HUGE breath right down to your belly and push your abs out as hard as you can before you go down. Third, start to exhale slowly AFTER you pass you sticking point. A controlled scream, for example, will release your breath correctly and endear you to your fellow gymrats. Do not inhale again until you get to the top. Summary: Your belt is preventing you from taking in enough air to start your lift. But go see a doctor anyway. Make sure he's a sports med physician. Dean >From: Corey O'Bryan >Subject: Re: [Strength_List] Squats & Blood Pressure >Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 07:41:05 -0800 (PST) > > > > > When I setup to squat I > > >hold my breath then before I descend I take a deep > > >breath and push against the belt. Once I break > > >parallel and start my ascention I release and start > > >take slow breathes once I get past the sticking > > point. > > > > > >Corey "Bear" O'Bryan > > >KEEP IT HARD!!! ;-} grrr Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 18:10:26 +0100 From: Jan Baggerud Larsen Produktsjef 8366 Subject: RE: Squats & Blood Pressure HUGE breath? This is what Dr Siff wrote a while back (he's talking about pulling but I assume this would apply to squatting as well?): "Russian research also shows that trying to fill the lungs as fully as possible with iar is not the best way to pull - it indicates that lungs should be around 75% full. There are at least the following different ways of filling the lungs: * taking one even and smoothly controlled inhalation in the low starting position * using a series of jerky "sips" of air * filling lungs to comfortable maximum, then forcefully expelling some air in little puffs to attain the best feeling intra-abdominal pressure Obviously, it is not possible in a contest to measure 75% of lung capacity, so what one does is to fill the lungs comfortably to what feels is an undistended belly maximum without raising the shoulders (to force in more air with the accessory muscles of respiration in the upper chest). By experimenting in training with too little and too much air, you will eventually be able to inhale (in all of the competitive lifts and many other exercises) to just the optimum amount without thinking. " Jan Oslo, Norway Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 14:36:27 -0600 From: Tom McCullough Subject: Re: Squatting Roger wrote: >I would still like to see how you use your singles in training all the >time. I like the idea. Actually Rodger, I got this idea from training with lifters who are far better than I, so I can't accept any credit. Anthony Clark and more especially John Inzer gave me most of the ideas. It's really simple...warm and hit a max. Then do a down set of 5-8 reps. Every week I try to increase my max by about 2.5% of my best. I will usually do 3 heavy work sets in a work out. My accessory exercises are all at 12 reps. I have gotten the best results of my entire lifting career lifting like this. Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:02:20 -0500 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: squat biomechanics for dummies >Some of the questions I need "scientific" answers to are: **These won't be "scinetific" but, I'll chime in on some of these as I understand it. Maybe this will spark some squat discussion too. >Why is it important to "sit back". A lot of experienced powerlifters in >Norway sit straight down, not back. **To keep the shins vertical and also to activate the hamstrings in the movement more effectively. See below too... >Why should you arch your back when you squat. **This is debatable. One thing for sure though...you should at least maintain the natural arch (i.e. straight back). That is the bodies natural posture for maximum stability. Your spinal column can be pretty sturdy when it is compressed in its natural arch/orientation and supported by intra-abdominal pressure. When you alter from that you move away from its (spines) optimal orientation. Plus, I think you can hamper the abdominal/oblique optimization of contraction (i.e. balance for peak pressure containment...my words) when you round or over-arch. Meaning that a muscle that is stretched can't contract as hard. This is just a theory and I can't substantiate it aside from what I have heard/read (thus put this together on common sense). If you are stretching some area of muscle in the whole abdominal area (read: stabilizers) then it may not contract at it's maximum and this could potentially yield a lower overall intra-abdominal pressure. This is probably better explaine! d by an expert but, like I say based off what I know and some loose logic I can see a path leading to the above rationale (right or wrong I don't know but, for the sake of conversation I included it). >Why should the shins stay close to perpendicular when squatting. Again a lot of powerlifters do more like a OL squat and their shins move forward. Some >even claim this will shorten the distance the bar has to travel. **I think this goes along with the sitting back somewhat. Think of it in terms of depth too. The more vertical your shin the higher the top of your knee is going to be. As you drive your shin/knee forward it is lowering the top of your knee (this was a common thing I saw with the HS kids at our State Meet last week...pissed them off when we called them for depth but, they were high...simple as that). This action in return, then lowers the point you need to drop the top of your leg at the hip to break that imaginary plane. In addition, if you think about the mechanics of it...it imakes it very much like a good morning. Assuming you can maintain a straight back (arched?) without deviation then you use the strong hip/hamstring combination to manipulate your torso. Basically you are making your hips the fulcrum. Imagine looking at a squat from the side and the lifter keeps the shins perpendicular to the floor. Now, envision the motion that will happen at the hip, knees, and the path of the bar (optimally straight down over the heels). Basically the body will go behind the bar. It is just a different way of approaching the same motion but, you put more emphasis on using the hips/hams/glutes than using the quadriceps at points in the motion. By sitting straight down and driving the knees forward you are not only anchoring against the knee for the hip action but, also pulling the knee back (in space) by contracting the quads hard too. Puts more activity at the knee. I am not sure if I explained that very well or not. I can see the mechanics in my mind and imagine the vectors quite clearly but, explaining it without demonstrating is tough to do. >Why use a wide stance. Some powerlifters I talked to claimed you would get >less out of the squat suit and the knee wraps if you squat wide. **I could see why they would say this. Part of the rebound of the suit is the pull across the butt. The wider your stance the less "back" you will sit as the relative length of your femur is shortened. Thus you won't stretch the material vertically across your butt as much. >Squat muscles: What exactly are the "hip muscles". When I discuss this most people say "that's what I call the thigh muscles". Why are the quads "less" important in a powerlifting squat. Why are the hamstrings important. The >hams are not extensor muscles are they? **Think along the sides of your hip in addition to right across the front. Look at some pro bodybuilders to get a visual of how the muscles are attaching etc. Quads importance is really dependant on the manner in which you squat. Kirk Karwoski would probably argue that quads were pretty important. Doug Furnas may as well. Despite very different styles they both had extreme quad developement based on the way they squatted etc. Just depends on how you squat really, IMO. Hamstrings are really important regardless. Simply because when you "lock" your torso (i.e. set your back and don't alter the curvature from start to finish). It is basically your hamstrings that manipulate the lean of your torso (using the hips as the fulcrum). Glutes, hips and various others are factored in too but, the prime mover is you hamstrings. >What's the optimal bar path and how do you achieve it. **Directly over your Center of Gravity. Kind of right over the middle of your foot with a slight tendency to the heel (varies slightly from person to person too). How to achieve it? You either drive the knees forward with some butt-back, or sit your butt way back to keep the bar traveling in a straight line over that point. Imagine looking at a bi-fold door from the top with the hinge of the two panels equating to your hip joint. The tracks that the door runs on would equate to the path you want the bar to travel. The 'fixed' edge of the one panel is the knee. That is about the best analogy I can come up with for a "sit back" squat. >How do you cut down the distance the bar has to travel. How does this relate >to a OL type squat vs a powerlifting type squat. **Keep the shins vertical. Aside from that...the simple structural make up of your body is going to dictate. Despite some belief that a wide stance is a shorter ROM it really isn't. Think about it like this...you still have to get the weight through the same motion. The differing aspect is that you utilize a small portion of that range at the beginning prior to the start (i.e. getting set up) and end (i.e. recovering). If you want to minimize the range you move the bar this could be a viable method BUT, it will make set up and recovery MUCH harder. I doubt you'll see this in meets outside of National and International level but, the rule states a bona fide attempt to return to the racks. I had an IPF sanctioned ref explain to me that means one step towards the racks. You do that _then_ the spotters can help you. Until then, you are on your own. Trying to recover your feet from ultra wide...alone...with maximal weight is downright hard to do. >What kind of lifting style will make the most out of the squat suit and >wraps. **Hard to say. It depends on you too. Where you are strong and where you are weak. The particular nuances of your squat groove. I would say that the groove that allows you to get the most stretch out of the material is the one that is going to yield the greatest return from the equipment. The flip side of that is you are now (possibly) not maximizing your leverage and/or strongest muscles groups. Give and take relationship to some extent IMO. I wouldn't worry about it that much. I did this kind of thinking for a long time and while it is enlightening you aren't going to go real far with it. While I believe it is a critical step in learning the sport you have to temper it with just getting stronger too. Form and style will do wonders for you BUT, it won't replace getting stronger. Find the best way you know how and then run with it. Far from a "scientific" response and not to be taken as anything other than my opinion. Hopefully it makes sense and I was clear in the points I tried to make. Really a pretty interesting motion when you look at it. Very simple, yet complex as you consider the myriad of variation that can occur and the endless combinations of contractions that can make the motion happen. I don't know if you'll ever find the "best" way to do it. You can certainly eliminate a lot of variables though by critical thinking like you are. Good luck and hope this was helpful is some way. Good liftin' -wade