From: lylemcd@delphi.com (Lyle McDonald) Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Squat.info.part1 Date: 28 Jan 94 06:13:59 GMT Well, before I get started with the sports nutrition series, I want to cover a few more miscellaneous points (mainly because I've been too lazy to write the sports nutrition stuff yet). So, this time I would like to address some of the beliefs about squatting and knee safety. I wrote an entire term paper on squatting for my biomechanics class and, to my dismay, found out more about the squat exercise than I ever wanted to. For example, you've probably heard that using a weight belt supports the spine by increasing intra-abdominal pressure (IAP). Well, this is true. However, did you ever wonder how they measured IAP. Well, there are two ways. The first is through a nasal pressure transducer. Ok, no problem. Well, a couple of studies used a rectal pressure transducer. I asked my professor how they got subjects for this type of study. He replied immediately "Graduate students". Ah, what I have to look forward to when I go back to school. Anyway. The squat is probably one of the most important exercise for both the athlete and the person seeking greater muscular mass. It is the main lower body exercise and involves most of the major muscles in the body including: quadriceps, hamstrings, gluteals, low back, and upper back. Also, inclusion of this type of exercise (large muscle, heavy weight) exercises has been shown to increase growth hormone (GH) release which will benefit all muscles in the body. From an athletic standpoint, the squat provides the strength and power for all leg movements and is useful for any athlete who needs use of his/her legs (i.e. all of them). It is more movement specific than leg extensions in that it is a movement which is performed during daily tasks (i.e. lifting something from the knees). Also, some physical therapists feel it is more beneficial than leg extensions for knee (especially anterior cruciate ligament damage) rehabilitation because it is a closed kinetic chain exercise whereas extensions are a open chain exercise (I'll explain this a little later). However, for the last 30 or so years, the squat has suffered from the misconception that it is bad for your knees and extremely dangerous. To the contrary, the squat can be extremely beneficial and can strengthen the supporting structures of the knees if done properly. As a final note this time, let me state that I am primarily addressing the back squat. There are a whole bunch of variations on the squat (i.e. sissy squat, front squat, hack squat, etc) but here I will only be using the back squat as an example. Primarily, I will be using a recent position statement by the National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA) as my reference. I used it as a reference for my term paper and it was a fairly inclusive review of the available research. I hope to address some of the misconceptions regarding the squat as well as recapping the NSCA recommendations for proper form during the back squat. But, that will have to wait until part 2. For a catalog of previous posts, send requests to lylemcd@delphi.com along with questions/comments. Lyle From: Lyle McDonald Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Squat.info.part2 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 01:15:25 -0500 Ok, welcome to part two of a who-knows-how-many part series on the squat. This time I would like to give verbatim the NSCA position stand regarding the squat exercise and close with their recommendations for proper form. 1. Squats, when performed correctly and with appropriate supervison, are not only safe, but may be a significant deterrent to knee injuries. 2. The squat exercise can be an important component of a training program to improve the athlete's ability to forcefully extend the knees and hips, and con considerably enhance performance in many sports. 3. Excessive training, overuse injuries, and fatigue-relted problems do occur with squats. The likelihood of such injuries and problems is substantially diminished by adherence to established principles of exercise program design. 4. The squat exercise is not detrimental to knee joint stability when performed correctly. 5. Weight training, including the squat exercise, strengthens connective tissue, including muscles, bones, ligaments, and tendons. 6. Proper form depends on the style of the squat and the muscles to be conditioned (see Appendices A and B). Bouncing in the bottom position of a squat to help initiate ascent increases mechanical loads on the knee joint and is therefore contraindicated. 7. While squatting results in high forces on the back, injury potential is low with appropriate techniques and supervision. 8. Conflicting reports exist as to the type, frequency, and severity of weight- training injuries. Some reports of high injury rate may be based on biased samples. Others have attributed injuries to weight training, including the squat, which may have been caused by other factors. 9. Injuries attributed to the squat may result not from the exercise itself, but from improper technique, pre-existing structural abnormalities, other physical activities, fatigue or excessive training. As you can see, the NSCA, possibly the foremost authority on strength and conditioning, seems to feel that fears surrounding the squat as a dangerous exercise are unfounded. Assuming that proper form is used and that there are no pre-existing injuries or contra-indications to squatting, it can be extrememly beneficial and may even help prevent knee injuries by strengthening the muscles and surrounding structures of the knee. Since this is getting a little long, I will save recommendatins for proper form for next time. As always, send requests for a catalog of old posts to lylemcd@delphi.com along with questions/mail/comments/whatever. Lyle From: Lyle McDonald Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Squat.info.part3 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 01:17:44 -0500 This time, I would like to reproduce the NSCA recommendations for proper form during the squat. This will be the final part of this series. They describe proper form in the squat this way. - Use approximately a shoulder-width foot stance. - Descend in a controlled manner. Ascent can be made at a variety of speeds. At faster speeds, there should be no compromise in technique. - Proper breath control is important to support the torso. The breath should be held from the start of the descent until the athlete passes the sticking point of the ascent. *Actually, this is probably not a very good idea. Holding one's breath (The Valsalve Maneuver) can be potentially very dangerous as it can cause blood pressure to skyrocket which may cause fainting when normal breathing is resumed. It is probably better to just inhale on the descent and, perhaps, hold the breath very momentarily on the ascent as you fight past the sticking point, and then exhale. This is my opinion, Lyle* - Avoid bouncing or twisting from the bottom position. - Maintain a normal lordotic posture with the torso as close to vertical as possible during the entire lift. - Generally, in typical back or front squats, descend only until the tops of the thighs are parallel to the floor or slightly below. Exceptions can be made for sports that require lower positions. - Feet should be kept flat on the floor. - Forward lean of the knee increases shear forces on the knee. Keeping the shin perpendicular may increase shear forces on the back as a result of forward trunk inclination. Although there are exceptions, the shin generally should remain as vertical as possible to reduce shear forces at the knee. Maximal forward movement of the knees should place them no more than slightly in front of the toes. Depending on th type of squat being used, volume and intensity should not be increased at a rate that exceeds the body's ability to adapt to the imposed demands. - Every effort should be made to maintain a consistent stable pattern of motion for each reptition, in order to load the muscles in a consistent manner and help prevent injury. As you can see, the NSCA recommends only going to or slightly past parallel while squatting. Some of the early fears surrounding the squats were due to the injury potential of full squats. Flexing the knee much past 90 degrees can put enormous stress on the ligaments of the knee and full squats should generally be avoided, with certain possible exceptions. Although they don't mention the use of a belt in their recommendations, it is probably a good idea to use one, especially for heavy sets to help support the spine. Additionally, it provides the lifter something to push against while exhaling and may actually increase strength in the lift. Finally, I would like to describe briefly the increasing use of the squat (and leg press) in a rehabilitation setting for knee injuries. Some therapists prefer squat-type movements to the typical leg-extension because it is a closed kinetic chain exercise. Put very simply (because I honestly don't know that much about it), exercises where both feet are in contact with the floor are considered to be closed chain while exercises like leg extensions are open chain. So, what does this have to do with anything. Well, first and foremost, most open chain exercises do not correlate with real-world movements. When was the last time you had to sit down and extend your knee (excepting your last leg workout). The squat, on the other hand, is performed daily anytime you bend your knees to lower your body followed by an extension (i.e. picking something up, assuming you are not using your back). Thus there is greater specificity when using closed chain movements in terms of applicability to the real world. However, there are other differencs. During a leg extension, only the quadriceps are contracting as opposed to squats where both quads and hamstring are active. This has one very major consequence. During a leg extension, there is not only rotation of the shin about the knee during extension but also some linear translation of the shin. This puts amazing stress on the cruciate ligaments of the knee, especially at the beginning of the movement. However, during a squat, both the quads and hams are firing. Since they are pulling from opposite sides of the shin, there tends to be a lot less demand put on the knee as there is not as much translation. (2) References: 1. The Squat Exercise in Athletic Conditioning: A Position Statement and Review of the Literature. NSCA Position Paper. Chandler, T. Jeff and M.H. Stone. For reprints, contact the National Strength and Conditioning Association at P.O. Box 81410 Lincoln, NE 68501. Phone: (402) 472-3000 Fax: (402) 476-6976. 2. Kinetic Chain Exercise in Knee Rehabilitation. Sports Medicine 11(6): 402-413, 1991. Randal A. Palmittier et. al. That about wraps this up. For a catalog of previous posts, send mail to lylemcd@delphi.com along with questions/comments. Lyle From: krw@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (keith.r.smith) Subject: Re: squat technique Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 20:07:38 GMT In article <2iotcm$6e1@grit.cs.utexas.edu> jacobb@cs.utexas.edu (Jorge Arturo Cobb) writes: >In article , >keith.r.smith wrote: > >>When you can comfortably complete a set with the bar on the mid-part >>of your shoulder blades (below the point where your traps fan out across >>your shoulders, then and only then, do you consider adding weight. > >Hi everyone: > >I am somewhat confused as to exactly where should the bar be placed >on the shoulders when squatting. One way, which I believe is the >one above, is to put the bar rather low on the shoulders. >Silly question: how come it does not roll down your back? Is arm strength >alone what keeps it in place? I once saw I guy in the gym squatting heavy >this way, and I think he kept the bar in place by >leaning forward somewhat and having lots of arm strength. Do the >arms have to be very strong to do heavy squats? > >The other way I've seen is to rest the bar on the top edge of >the shoulder blades, which prevents it from rolling down, but it >presses against the base of the neck and it hurts my shoulders. > >Any suggestions? > >Jorge C. > Hi Jorge! Being able to squat comfortably with a bare-bar low on the shoulders is a fairly good measure of flexibility in the shoulder girdle, and of the fact that you have mastered the form (head erect, chest out, butt down) of the movement. You really want to have these elements in order before you start squatting with any meaningful weight, whether you intend to squat "powerlifter-style" (low on shoulders) or "bodybuilder-style" (higher on traps). In any event, you want to be able to carry the bar low enough that it does not bear down on that unmuscled area at the neck. Having good traps tends to help here too. Keith R From: fgold@wpi.WPI.EDU (Fredric Marc Gold) Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Re: Help with squats Date: 22 Jun 1994 15:05:22 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu It is impossible not to have your knees go forward some, unless you are wearing knee wraps, a big belt and a squat suit, but they are for very serious weights. But you should try to keep your knees over your feet, don't bend them in toward the middle and point your toes out a little, from straight away. Don't bounce at the bottom and start slowly. Take time to build up your squat. The balance and control is important to develop along with strength or you'll wind up getting hurt. Remember that the squat is not just a leg excercise it also works the hips, back and abs. fgold From: wbrock@mindspring.com (Warner Brock) Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Re: Back arching bad form for squats?? Date: Thu, 8 Sep 1994 20:57:47 -0400 In article <34o2c0$r18@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> yuthas@cc.umanitoba.ca (Trin Yuthasastrackosol) writes: >From: yuthas@cc.umanitoba.ca (Trin Yuthasastrackosol) >Subject: Back arching bad form for squats?? >Date: 8 Sep 1994 22:14:24 GMT >I have a tendency to arch my back whenever I do squats, usually in an >effort to keep my head up and in line with my butt. Is this a Bad Thing >(tm) to do? Should I wear a weight belt when doing squats? I also read >somewhere (I think it was in the hardgainer FAQ) that it was a Bad Thing >(tm) to elevate your heels with a block for squats. I recall that it had >something to do with stressing out your knees. I've read elsewhere, in many >publications, that this was alright to do, particularly if you have trouble >going to or going below parallel. So what's the straight skinny on this >practice? > >Thanks in advance!! >-- >Trin Dominic Yuthasastrakosol |A great many people think they are >Dept. Pharmacology and Therapeutics |thinking when they are merely >University of Manitoba |rearranging their prejudices. >A5002MbChip1MbFastSupraturbo28GVPII354Mb| -William James If you want to see what it should feel like to perform a squat correctly, do the following: Stand *facing toward* a wall (very, very close with your toes almost touching the wall.) Keeping your eyes straight in front of you (or slightly inclined) do a normal squat until your thighs are parallel to the floor. You will be unable to perform the exercise incorrectly if you use this technique. If you do it wrong, you will have a tendency to either fall backward, or the knees will flare out to the sides. Practice it until you get the right feel. Then use the weight. Hope this is helpful. _______________________________________________________________ "My turn of mind is so given | Warner Brock, PT to taking things in the absurd | The Physical Therapy Center point of view, that it breaks | Gainesville, GA USA out in spite of me every | e-mail: wbrock@mindspring.com now and then." --Lord Byron | =;~9 _______________________________|_______________________________ From: jwabik@banzai.netstar.com (Jeff Wabik) Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Re: Back arching bad form for squats?? Date: 13 Sep 1994 14:02:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: banzai.netstar.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Trin Yuthasastrackosol (yuthas@cc.umanitoba.ca) wrote: : I have a tendency to arch my back whenever I do squats, usually in an : effort to keep my head up and in line with my butt. Is this a Bad Thing : (tm) to do? Should I wear a weight belt when doing squats? I also read Your back should be flat/slighty-arched when doing squats. If its not, you're in DEEP trouble. : somewhere (I think it was in the hardgainer FAQ) that it was a Bad Thing : (tm) to elevate your heels with a block for squats. I recall that it had : something to do with stressing out your knees. I've read elsewhere, in many I've hurt my knees doing high-heel squats before. I have permanently removed them from my exercise menu. Your actual mileage may vary. You'll feel "bad pain" if this is not a good movement for you.. Just stop the set before you do any real damage. : publications, that this was alright to do, particularly if you have trouble : going to or going below parallel. So what's the straight skinny on this : practice? Going below parallel is the cure for not going below parallel, as opposed to thinking that putting your heels on a board will do it. :) -J -- Jeff Wabik E/Mail: jwabik@netstar.com NetStar, Inc. Phone: +1 612 943 8990 Minneapolis, MN FAX: +1 612 943 8939 "Donuts .. Is there anything they can't do?" From: drbw@mail.che.utexas.edu (David R. B. Walker) Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Re: Back arching bad form for squats?? Date: 17 Sep 1994 03:22:03 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: chegd07.che.utexas.edu In article , bjm@rommel.apana.org.au (Brad McMahon) wrote: . > The most common mistake in squats is leaning too far forward. This > puts pressure on the lower back, so don't! You may not ever put > your back out, but you also may do it tommorow! Back pain > can last for the rest of your life, so don't stress it too much! Don't lean forward. Bend the back at the waist if you have to, but don't lean forward. I always bend my back at the waist since I have a much stronger back than legs. Then I isolate the legs on the leg press-ouch. Bending and leaning are different. I tore a calf muscle when I leaned forward doing squats once. Blood from the tear drained internally down into my ankle as a purple/red/blue mess. Real pleasant to look at and walk with, but not impossible to deadlift on. Doctor said no squats until it wasn't sore or I'd risk tearing the Achilles tendon and then have rehab for 6 months. I laid off! He saw me deadlift, but didn't bitch me out. > Should you wear a weight belt? Gee, I don't know. I don't, but > many do, they feel safer with it on, and they get balance, and > they look serious :-) > I don't like 'em. Do what feels right. Good advice there. Here's a rule of thumb-weight belt for weights greater than twice your bodyweight. Breathing properly and strong ABS are more important than weight belts as far as back support. Exhale on exhertion, inhale on descent. A weight belt just emphasizes these actions. The pressure on the back provided by the belt is not the source of support-it's the pressure on the front. -- David Walker Dept. of Chemical Engineering, UT-Austin drbw@mail.che.utexas.edu From: jwabik@banzai.netstar.com (Jeff Wabik) Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Re: Back arching bad form for squats?? Date: 16 Sep 1994 14:50:51 GMT Warner Brock (wbrock@mindspring.com) wrote: : In article <34o2c0$r18@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca> yuthas@cc.umanitoba.ca (Trin Yuthasastrackosol) writes: : >From: yuthas@cc.umanitoba.ca (Trin Yuthasastrackosol) : >Subject: Back arching bad form for squats?? : >Date: 8 Sep 1994 22:14:24 GMT : >I have a tendency to arch my back whenever I do squats, usually in an : >effort to keep my head up and in line with my butt. Is this a Bad Thing : >(tm) to do? Should I wear a weight belt when doing squats? I also read : >somewhere (I think it was in the hardgainer FAQ) that it was a Bad Thing : >(tm) to elevate your heels with a block for squats. I recall that it had : >something to do with stressing out your knees. I've read elsewhere, in many : >publications, that this was alright to do, particularly if you have trouble : >going to or going below parallel. So what's the straight skinny on this : >practice? : > : >Thanks in advance!! : >-- : >Trin Dominic Yuthasastrakosol |A great many people think they are : >Dept. Pharmacology and Therapeutics |thinking when they are merely : >University of Manitoba |rearranging their prejudices. : >A5002MbChip1MbFastSupraturbo28GVPII354Mb| -William James : If you want to see what it should feel like to perform a squat correctly, : do the following: : Stand *facing toward* a wall (very, very close with your toes almost : touching the wall.) Keeping your eyes straight in front of you (or slightly : inclined) do a normal squat until your thighs are parallel to the floor. With all due respect.. This previous suggestion is just crazy. When you do a squat -- any kind of squat -- the bar will always be on your back directly over your heels.. As you squat, your knees go out OVER your toes PAST them. Where you place the bar (high up on the traps, or down low, sitting on the ridge the posterior deltoid makes when your arms in the "hold the squat bar" position) will dictate how far your knees travel out over your knees, and how much you'll bend at the waist while doing the squat. I can't think of any case where having my toes up against a wall is in any way correct for any of these. : You will be unable to perform the exercise incorrectly if you use this : technique. If you do it wrong, you will have a tendency to either fall : backward, or the knees will flare out to the sides. Practice it until : you get the right feel. Then use the weight. Get help from a trainer at a gym if you're having problems with a squat. I think a correct squat is something you have to SEE and be interactively instructed for best results. -Jeff -- Jeff Wabik E/Mail: jwabik@netstar.com NetStar, Inc. Phone: +1 612 943 8990 Minneapolis, MN FAX: +1 612 943 8939 From: jwabik@banzai.netstar.com (Jeff Wabik) Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Re: Back arching bad form for squats?? Date: 26 Sep 1994 02:04:27 GMT Jon Allen (jon@stella.unx.sas.com) wrote: : Jeff said: : >>With all due respect.. This previous suggestion is just crazy. When : >>you do a squat -- any kind of squat -- the bar will always be on your : >>back directly over your heels.. As you squat, your knees go out OVER : >>your toes PAST them. : then Warner said: : > Also, how do others feel about Jeff's suggestion that the knees : >should travel out past the toes? Most studies show that this increases : >patellofemoral compression loading and can lead to chondromalacia. : whatever. And that, when doing squats, your legs from the knees down should : remain perpendicular to the floor, as if set in cement. Pardon me? I'll give you $10 if you can do this with NO weight on your back! You're tryin' to defy the laws of physics. Best get those anti-grav units out and attach them to your butt. People! C'mon! The rules for squats are very simple: 1) Keep your back flat. 2) Keep your center of weight positioned directly over or just >>slightly<< in front of the heels. 3) Never go shallower than thighs parallel to the floor. 4) Never get a bounce off the bottom. 5) Knees go (in the direction of) out over the toes. How FAR your knees go out is not at all important, and will vary slightly depending on where the bar is (higher -vs- lower) on your back.. The point of rule #5 is because SOME people point their toes out but yet still almost touch their knees together at the bottom of a squat, which places an INCREDIBLE lateral (i.e. undesirable) load on the joint. I'm usually open to discussing these things, but .. this seems so incredibly fundamental ... -Jeff -- Jeff Wabik E/Mail: jwabik@netstar.com NetStar, Inc. Phone: +1 612 943 8990 Minneapolis, MN FAX: +1 612 943 8939 "Donuts .. Is there anything they can't do?" From: wbrock@mindspring.com (Warner Brock) Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Re: Back arching bad form for squats?? Date: Mon, 26 Sep 1994 18:41:06 -0400 In article <365a7b$ljs@cedar.mr.net> jwabik@banzai.netstar.com (Jeff Wabik) writes: >From: jwabik@banzai.netstar.com (Jeff Wabik) >Subject: Re: Back arching bad form for squats?? >Date: 26 Sep 1994 02:04:27 GMT > Jeff Wabik writes: > >The rules for squats are very simple: > 1) Keep your back flat. > 2) Keep your center of weight positioned directly > over or just >>slightly<< in front of the heels. > 3) Never go shallower than thighs parallel to the floor. > 4) Never get a bounce off the bottom. > 5) Knees go (in the direction of) out over the toes. >How FAR your knees go out is not at all important, and will vary >slightly depending on where the bar is (higher -vs- lower) on your >back.. The point of rule #5 is because SOME people point their >toes out but yet still almost touch their knees together at the >bottom of a squat, which places an INCREDIBLE lateral (i.e. >undesirable) load on the joint. >I'm usually open to discussing these things, but .. this seems >so incredibly fundamental ... > -Jeff >-- >Jeff Wabik E/Mail: jwabik@netstar.com >NetStar, Inc. Phone: +1 612 943 8990 >Minneapolis, MN FAX: +1 612 943 8939 > "Donuts .. Is there anything they can't do?" First of all Jeff, I'd just like to disagree with you in an agreeable manner. Your rule #1 is somewhat, although not completely inaccurate. During the proper performance of the squat, the back should actually be bowed in (or arched out as someone has said) forming a normal inward or lordotic curve which has been shown to minimize disc pressures in the spine in all positions including when handling heavy weight. However, most people are unaware of the position of the spine since we have few propioceptors (position receptor cells) in this area when compared to other areas (such as the hand.) Therefore, if you use the simple rule of making sure the knees do not travel in front of the toes by more than 1-2 inches, the back must assume the proper inward lordosis or, as you stated, you will lose your balance. This method does take some practice, however, I can keep my knees behind my toes until my buttocks hit the floor if necessary-- and with up to 325# on my back (OK, so I'm a light-weight). But, this *will* protect both the back and the knees in a very difficult exercise. P.S. Is it possible to E-mail $10 ;-) | Warner Brock, PT | The Physical Therapy Center | Gainesville, GA USA | e-mail: wbrock@mindspring.com From: ksmith@unix3.netaxs.com (Keith Smith) Subject: Re: Knee Pain From Doing Squats Date: 14 Nov 1994 09:48:36 GMT In article empower@hookup.net (Judi Naor) writes: >Anyone know why I get pain in one of my knees when I do squats? This only >began a month after starting them.I don't use extra weights but there is >additional weight due to the fact I would like to lose 15 to 20 pounds. > >Thanks, >Judi Naor Hi Judi! How often do you do squats? Sometimes in our determination to make progress, we forget that rest days are just as important as the training days.... How do you do your squats? If you bounce at the bottom of the rep (especially if you do not keep your heels planted) then this may be a problem. How is your form? Are you doing squats with your head erect, your chest out, your butt down and your heels planted? If you can watch yourself in a mirror the whole time, then this is about right. Do you warm up before doing squats? 5-10 easy minutes on an stationary bike (or whatever is your "time to warm shoulders" ) will make a huge difference in how "lubricated" your knees feel before doing your squats. The bottom line is that if you are having knee pain right now from doing squats, then do something else for a while.... Maybe try stiff-leg (not locked!) deadlift. Do warm up first (gently!). After your knees are happy again, _then_ try doing squats, bearing in mind the importance of proper warmup and good form. Keith R From: dngrdan Subject: Squats - A Good Poem Date: 8 May 1995 04:16:20 GMT Thought you might like this. SQUATS Here is not where men and boys are separated but where the ordinary becomes audacious, where summer storms turn into tornadoes.. And if we talk in terms of weather, then this is the weightlifter’s hurricane, quads and calves like turbulent gusts of muscle whipped around the eye of the knee. You step up to the rack, square off facing a cracked plaster wall or a mirror hung there to display what will soon be your face in a grimace of agony. Grip the bar, lean into it, bend the neck till the head slips under and you feel the cold steel across your shoulders. Dig in beneath the weight, measure each breath, straighten slowly as you lift it off the rack; step back, stand for a moment to ensure the bar’s securely balanced. Now squat. Each quad fills with a rush of blood then swells as you start to stand. Straight up, back tight, head and neck stiff, as if you were skewered through form heel to forehead, the rump like a linchpin to control the flow of motion; down again, then up, your butt the hub upon which the hips ride, cycling each rise and dip, knees wrapped tightly to avoid a buckle. When each thigh is painfully inflamed the warm-up ends and the work gets real. You’ve crossed a border from civil inhibition to a frontier of fear where your sequestered animals feast on your deep silent secrets. Up and down in maddening dance, each repetition pulling you farther form the edge of that frontier you are now swooping through like a crazed hawk, flashing and slashing around sheared cliffs glazed with the blades of a midday sun. A gust of wind, as if form great wings beating, and you’re lifted above some steep face of rock, sweeping the sky like a blare sent up form fields resembling golden sponges. You’ve crashed the gate, slipped silently through some dark portal where you hear your own breathing, though somehow you know you’re not in control. You’re unconscious but you’re still squatting. Peter Spiro From: crg@nando.net (Cgrissom) Subject: Re: Squatting + forced reps Date: 30 May 1995 08:59:13 -0400 John_Dessi (Larry.Winger@ncl.ac.uk) wrote: : > >>Anyone got any tips on effective spotting technique for : > >>squats? When I'm spotting my mate doing squats with : > >>over 500lbs I find it almost impossible to stop him from : > >>falling forwards away from me, through my hands. And Well, 500+ lbs. can seriously hurt you and him both if it gets out of shape. If you're using this much iron ouside of a power rack then you need at least 3 spotters -- one behind and one on each side ready to take the bar. Anything less is foolish and asking for a serious injury, especially if going to failure. Actually, if you really want to train to failure, then use a rack so you can just set the bar on the pins when it won't go up. Forget the forced reps -- do a slow negative instead. I mean, walk out with a weight greater than your 1RM and try to go slowly down to the pins. Chuck G. From: bapiche@lazrus.cca.rockwell.com (William A. Piche) Subject: Re: Powerlifting Squat Form Date: Wed, 2 Aug 1995 12:20:23 GMT In article , Ian@ianlynch.demon.co.uk (Ian Lynch) writes: |> Mr.Deadlift wrote: |> |> > Louie says that when you are an accomplished squater, nothing should move |> > but the hip joint. Also, the shins (calves) should stay perpendicular to |> > the floor at all times. |> |> I think I would fall over if I tried this. I think a lot depends on the |> individual. Using the hips is a good idea due to employing glutes which |> are big but just as some deadlifters prefer sumo to conventional I have |> seen some very wide squatters, some narrow etc etc. Most of the top |> people seem to avoid extremes - not too narrow, not too wide. Some use |> of the back and hips but not with chin on the knees. |> -- |> Ian I would like to add that the wider you go the less the distance to lift the weight which is an advantage. Also, keeping the knees perpendicular I believe is biomechanically advantaged. You want perfect squat form by the master? Check out a video of Mike Bridges. You have to have the hip and hamstring flexibility to adopt this form. >From what I have observed, the top squatters keep the shins perpendicular regardless of the width of the stance they use. -- Bill Piche (bapiche@cca.rockwell.com) From: Terry Bollea Subject: Squats, Leg Press Machines and ROM Originator: roland@ecf.toronto.edu Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 23:36:52 GMT In article , Jim Muchow wrote: > Squats are an excellent choice for developing the legs, and anyone > at any level can do them. > > [lots of good advice, until...] > > You can go down as far as thigh bones parallel to the floor, but if > you can't get down that far without your knees extending past your > sneakers stop sooner. Sounds right to me. > > [... followed by ...] > > You'll get the most benefit if you go through the entire range of > motion. That's pretty much the case, but not always. > >May I politely disagree. One should attempt if possible to go all the >way down. If the knees are stiff, put the heels on a 5 pound plates. I politely disagree with you. Both counts. Do NOT go all the way down, and NEVER have the heels elevated. > >If you don't go all the way down, you don't exercise over the full >range of motion. When I started squats, I went to the thighs-parallel >position like you said. When I started moving bigger weights, I once >lost my concentration briefly at the parallel position, went below >parallel and couldn't get up. I got a hernia instead. I'm sorry to hear that, but that doesn't imply you should go all the way downn. > >Progress in the beginning is rather slow because many people don't >have a lot of strength to rise from a full squat as aopposed to the >thighs-parallel squat. > >Also remember to push from the heels and not from balls of the feet. I agree with that point. Regarding full ROM: it's not necessary and in fact dangerous for certain exercises. With the squat you should not be going all the way down because at the bottom position you create excessive shearing forces on the knees. As someone pointed out before, if full ROM is always desirable, then how come there are NO leg extension machines that go full ROM? There's a good reason for that, your knees will get destroyed. So how far down should you go? Look sideways in a mirror and do a squat with no weight at all. Watch your knees. Just when they are about to go in front of your toes, stop. Some people find that they can't even do a squat correctly with 0 weight. This occurs due to their bodily proportions (long legs, high waisted people). Tall people in fact, might be contraindicated for performing the squat due the excessive shearing forces on the knees, and the inability to perfrom a squat corectly without leaning forward more than about 15 degrees (which puts *tremendous* force on the spinal column). But for most people, the squat - if performed correctly - is a fantastic exercise. Just don't lean forward excessively (which you see sometimes with people using a weight that's too heavy for them), and watch how low you go. And don't elevate your heels. Think about the line of forces and you'll see why. I've heard some good things about the IronMind hip belt, which places the bar directly underneath you. Less strain on the lower back, and some great results. Anyone else try it? I know one guy who's using around 300lbs with it (in the beginning you have to use ALOT less weight than a normal squat) and he says he's never had such a growth pump in his thighs from anything else. The regular deadlift is also a good substitute for the squat. Watch out for leg press machines - very rarely have I ever seen a good one. And some of them are so poorly designed (don't even THINK about the Universal Leg Press version with those tiny foot pedals) you're just asking for injury. If you're gonna leg press, the best one I've found (personally) is the Hammer Leg Press machine. Don't use the squat machine (it's just come out and won't be in a lot of gymms for awhile I hear), I hear it sucks. The Nautilus Leg PRess Machine (new one) is also good. I've heard good things about Body Masters as well. Ones that suck include Trotter (all their machines are crap) and Icarian, plus a whole bunch of other crap out there. You're probably in most cases better off doing free weight squats (just in termsof the safety part). From: Don Roberts Subject: Re: Another Squat Question Date: 21 Nov 1995 20:32:22 GMT See, I knew it would pay to read everything Poo posts...;-) "C.J. Poux" wrote: > i am amazed that anyone should dare to go as deep as causing the calves to > go PARALLEL with the floor when squatting. Touche, poo. I suspect the poster meant "perpendicular." Even still, keeping your calves perpendicular to the floor while squatting isn't possible unless you squat on a Smith machine. > what's more, the squat's drawback is that it puts tremendous strain on the > patella, especially if the squatter goes past the 90 degree point. Yup. Unless you've got strong knees, squatting significantly past the 90 deg point is bad news. I know a lot of people think it's necessary for full development. And it's true, you do get more out of squats (muscle-wise) if you go deeper. You just do so at the risk of possible knee problems. Better, if you have knee trouble, to get that extra work from some other exercise. Anyway, past the "thighs parallel" point the added stress isn't on your muscles, but your knees (or so my exercise-physiology-trained brother tells me). > since the prospect of knee surgery doesn't thrill me (just ask net colleague > don roberts about that when he decides to post something Okay, so I don't post much anymore. With all the name-calling around here these days, it's a wonder I even still *read* this list...;-) > though in his case the surgery was not caused by bad squatting technique Nope, bad Moguls technique...:( [BTW, for the curious: I had an ACL reconstruction and bilaterial meniscus repairs. No cartilage removed, the doc managed to sew it back up...] > (he may even be prompted to respond to this. he has quite a song to sing! :) Okay, just the chorus: In my case, the knee surgery was the best thing I could have done. Otherwise, my joint would have been unstable and prone to injury. My brother Dave has a torn ACL, hasn't had it fixed, and his knee is a mess from all the subsequent damage. Still, having said that, it's only now, over 18 months after my surgery, that I feel like my leg routine is approaching "normal". My last two quad workouts were the best I've had since my surgery. I'm working *really* hard on evening out my squat stance again (I'd been relying too much on my good leg, post- surgery). It's starting to come along. Finally. > preventative measures are better than pushing the envelope on this one, i > believe. Amen, Poo! Knee troubles are no fun. I'm just lucky that in the long run, the only lasting reminder of my knee debacle is the scar where they took the tendon graft to make the new ACL... -- | | | | Dr. Donald W. Roberts Physicist | \_____/ dwr@llnl.gov From: tmg@umich.edu (Mr.Deadlift) Subject: Re: Another Squat Question Date: 23 Nov 1995 02:56:59 GMT > tmg@umich.edu (Mr.Deadlift) wrote: > > >I am still trying to perfect this kind of squat, and after some hard work > >at it, I can come pretty damn close to keeping my calves perpendicular to > >the ground. > > Pretty damn close, but not exactly. I don't think we have a big disagreement, > Tom. My point was that for you calf to be *precisely* perpendicular to the > floor, you'd have to be on a Smith machine. Otherwise, you'd topple backwards. > The weight has to be balanced over your feet, which means your calves have to > angle slightly forward to get the weight on your back centered over your feet. > I guess it *would* be possible to have your calves exactly perpendicular, but > then you'd have to be leaned *way* forward, and that's not good form either, > right? ^^^^^^^^^ That would make sense....since the weight must travel in a pretty much vertical path (if not....you could have some SERIOUS problems ;). But, I have seen pictures of one of the best powerlifters of all time (if not the best), Ed Coan, and his calves are PERFECTLY PERPENDICULAR to the ground. One other point, the wider the squat stance, the less back bend is needed to keep the calves perpendicular. For instance, I use a pretty wide powerlifting squat stance, so my back does bend some, but not as much as one might expect. But, if someone was to keep there feet close together (i.e. 1 foot apart), in order to keep there calves perpendicular to the ground, there back would have to bend about a full 90 degrees (I just tried it ;) XTom Goodwin (aka Mr. Deadlift) X XE-mail: tmg@umich.edu X From: Tom Agler Subject: Re: Another Squat Question Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 19:21:27 GMT >==========Grace, 11/20/95========== > >On Mon, 20 Nov 1995, Phill Cloke wrote: > >> Is there a Squat FAQ, I had a look and couldn't find one, so here's my >> question. > >> I know that there has been many discussions about how far down a squat >> should go and the Pro's and Con's of such. I have recently started >> squatting and here is my problem. > >> When someone say's squat untill the leg is about 90 degrees, does this >> mean that the thigh should be parrallel with the ground, or that the >> angle between calf and thigh behind the knee should be 90 degree. >> Those of you have ever done squats will know the difference as when >> you sqat down, the knee moves over the toes to balance the weight. > > I know I squat to the point the hip just breaks parallel with the >knee (something like that). > >> I can definately get the calf to thigh angle to 90 degrees, but if I >> try to get the calf parrallel to the ground, I fing that I tend to go >> onto my toes and my heels leave the ground. > > Calf parallel? You can squat like that? Wow, um, don't mean to >be sarcastic, it's just my nature. > >> Is this because I'm new to squatting and my achilles tendon's are >> still tight? > > I don't know, maybe someone else can help you there. It could be >that you're new to squatting. > >Grace > To obtain a full range of motion with the squat, lower the weight until your thigh is parallel to the floor - but no further. At the same time, ensure that your kness are not extending beyond your toes. This will require you to stick your butt back, just like you are going to sit down on a chair. Keep the weight back on your heels. Push back up through your heels as you raise the weight. The movement should be performed slowly and in control, both up and down. Constantly monitor your form, taking note of how your body is handling the weight. Awareness of your form, of the muscles you are attempting to work and how your body is responding to the stress will help to maximize the effectiveness of the move and minimize the potential for injury. Tom Agler tom.agler@daytonoh.attgis.com From: jstream@girch1.med.uth.tmc.edu (Rifle River) Subject: Re: Another Squat Question Date: 28 Nov 1995 16:14:51 GMT In article <28Nov1995.4059219@vsf-lab-11.massey.ac.nz>, B.M.Guthrie@massey.ac.nz wrote: > A little contradiction here. Calves/shins perpendicular without a Smith > is pretty diffucult: I would have agreed with you until I saw some serious powerlifters doing squats not too long ago. The shins weren't perfectly perpindicular, but it was pretty damn close. The key is that their stance was incredibly wide. For instance, get in a stance as if you were going to do a sumo-style deadlift (c'mon spread 'em really wide) then watch as you go down. You'll be amazed at how upright your shins can remain. Now modify that stance slightly (c'mon keep it wide) to do a squat and you can maintain a similar form. Presumably, this is less stressful on the knees than having a lot of forward tilt to the shins. Rifle River jstream@girch1.med.uth.tmc.edu From: garry@mda.ca (Garry Holmen) Subject: Re: Another Squat Question Date: 30 Nov 1995 17:53:47 GMT B.M.Guthrie@massey.ac.nz wrote: : > : A little contradiction here. Calves/shins perpendicular without a Smith : is pretty diffucult: Yes. But without a Smith you can't also have thighs : parallel AND calves/shins perpendicular AND no more than 90 degrees flexion. : To fulfil the 90 degree limit you only do a "half squat" (free), which : means the thigh is at 45 degrees. And the calves/shins are also at 45 degrees : (roughly). Tell you what... let's do a little experiment here. First let's start with our feet about 4 inches apart. Is it possible to keep the calves straight and bring the thighs to parallel? Nope.... Ok.... now shoulder width apart... well it's better but still not parallel. Finally let's try a wide powerlifting style squat... heck my calves are only slighty outside of perpendicular and no Smith machine. I don't think I need to go into the physiology on this one... the above should demonstrate it pretty thoroughly. Garry From: byron@news.epix.net () Subject: Re: Another Squat Question Date: 1 Dec 1995 14:26:48 GMT Garry Holmen (garry@mda.ca) wrote: : Tell you what... let's do a little experiment here. : First let's start with our feet about 4 inches apart. Is it possible : to keep the calves straight and bring the thighs to parallel? : Nope.... : Ok.... now shoulder width apart... well it's better but still not : parallel. : Finally let's try a wide powerlifting style squat... heck my calves : are only slighty outside of perpendicular and no Smith machine. : I don't think I need to go into the physiology on this one... the : above should demonstrate it pretty thoroughly. : Garry Very well put. It seems to me that keeping the shins upright is much more a matter of setup than technique. If you having short legs, taking a wide stance, and carrying the bar low on the shoulders will keep your shins fairly upright in the regular squat. This is a typical powerlifting squat. It uses a lot of hips and lower back and doesn't put "open joint" stress on the knee (as the Health for Life books call it.) Keeping your weight on your heels will help a little. If you put the bar higher on your back, use a narrow stance, and center your weight over the center of your foot, you are going to get more quad work, but more "open joint" knee stress. By using front squats, the safety squat bar, or squatting in a smith machine with feet positioned in front of the bar, you can keep the shins upright (reducing "open joint" stress on the knee) even with a medium stance (and in the case of Smith machine squats, with the bar high on your back.) For people with naturally short legs, a squat with the bar high and a moderate stance will give good quad work without harming the knee. For long legged people, safety squats, and front squats might be a better choice. (I personally hate smith machines, but that might be an option too.) Incidentally, I think striving for the perfectly upright shin is a waste of time. A better guideline is probably assuring that the knee does not go further forward that the toes -- that is, just a little flexion at the ankle. This is done by keeping your weight centered over the middle of your foot -- nice and natural and balanced. This is all really simple biomechanics. My understanding of the subject is rudimentary at best. Flame away if you disagree. Unless your legs look like a pair of pliers wearing shorts. In that case shut up. byron@epix.net