Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:15:56 -0700 From: _MIKE_ Subject: Re: Louis Simmons methods From: Denilson P. da Costa >Dear fiends, Im writing again , as Ive got no answers the first time Well I am not surprised you got no answers, because explaining Louie Simmon's program is a challenge at the best of times - but it sucks getting zero replies, so I will try. When I read on Deepsquatters site about his Louie experience, I thought it couldn't be that complicated. I got the video's thinking that I would totally understand the program afterwards. Not quite. It raised as many questions as it answered. Part of the problem in (re)constucting his philosphy is that he doesn't fully explain why he has you doing certain things. One thing I have learned is that "a strong man is strong in the BACK of his body" (he says this alot). Another thing is that his system evovles all of the time. So you might hear him talk about squating at a certain percentage on his video, a different % in his PLUSA articles and, yet a different one again from someone who just trained with him. So I will try to give you a brief overview of the tennets of his philosophy - as I understand them [anyone else can correct me] First of all he uses lighter weights for 1 day each of squatting and benching to develop explosive speed (aka compensatory acceleration)- all squats are done off of a box using suit bottoms only. On the other days he uses similar excercises to main lifts with really heavy weight (many to max singles). You alternate the heavy excercises every 3-4 weeks to prevent getting stale. He specializes in working bodyparts and ranges of motion where a Squat suit and bench shirt don't help (ie lockout)- good unless you lift RAW. On your Speed bench day you use 55% of your 1RM, 60% of your shirtless max. You do 8 sets of 3 reps, trying to explode from the bottom taking 45 seconds of rest - no shirt. Then throw a couple heavy singles at the end - I *think* to asess how heavy weight feels (around 70-85%).You also do lot's of tricep work, with a couple of sets for Lats, rotator cuffs and shoulders. You test your bench every 4th week and adjust to your near weight at 55 or 60%, he tries to enter a competion every 8th week - so you would probably test if you weren't. On the Speed squat day you use 50-60%*, progressing by about 2.5% per week (only if you maintain speed till the last set) doing 10-12 sets of 2 with 45-60 second rests. You do these off of 4 box heights, rotating box height after 3-4 weeks. Using suit bottoms, you sit down on box for a moment (matt on top for slight support) and explode up. You use 50 % of your 1RM at that height and go up 2.5% per week, until the last week were you take a weight (test for 1RM). This is the 1RM you will use to figure out your percentages next time you use that height. Then you change heights and do 3-4 weeks again. Test your normal Squat every 8th week. The heights are 2" above, paralel, 1 " below, and far below paralel. You would usually do a couple sets of HEAVY good morning, wit heavy ab work, heavy sidebends, and calf and or neck work. On the Heavy Bench day, you do similar excercises to the bench, like decline bench, close grip incline, Floor presses, close grip bench off rack (starting at 2" adding an inch each week) - All of these are done to a max single for 3-4 weeks, then you change to a new excercise. With some heavy tricep work (some partials -1/2 and 1/4 dips), Shoulder work, lat work and some rotator cuff work. Heavy Squat day - On this day you do your Deadlifts ( mostly off of racks 4-6" from lock out, or off of boards -depending upon your weakness (start or finish)) After this you would do heavy Squat type excercises like Zercher squats, orkneeling quats (6-10), or Belt squats. Followed by heavy ab work, lighter errector work, optional biceps. When you do have a contest coming up try 15x1 @65%, next week 15x1 @ 70%, 12x1 @ 75%, 8x1 @ 80%, 6x1 @ 85%, do contest - all of these have 50 sec rests! -Phew! that is the short version! If you need more info try Deepsquatter's site, and read it a couple of times - I did _MIKE_ ------------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:23:42 -0200 > From: "Denilson P. da Costa" > Subject: Louis Simmons methods > > Dear fiends, Im writing again , as Ive got no answers the first time Sorry about that. I must have missed it the first time. Anyway, rather than fill up everyones mailboxes with a lengthy reply (and it will be lengthy) I will add the reponse to my website in the Louie FAQ. I have answered this question several times and it's about time I just post it once and for all. Give me a day or two because it will be wordy and I type slowly and and poorly. It will be at http://home.jps.net/cburnell/louie2.htm Jason W. Burnell - email me for info on the STRENGTH list Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:55:09 EST From: R6528DIXON Subject: Re: Louie Simmons Training Philosophys ------------------------------------------- In a nutshell, Louie's training philosophys can be summed up as using percent training on the major lifts along with compensatory acceleration. He also believes very strongly in hitting the perceived weak links in each lift (ex. bench lockout, off the chest ... various sticking points). Louie also preaches mucho abdominal and lower back work to stabilize the mid-section. I live in Columbus, Ohio and know Lou very well. He is a very fine person and he loves powerlifters. i learned more from him in one week than I had learned in years of reading PLUSA and the various books etc. The man is a wonderful coach. I always read every one of Lou's articles and they are all slightly different because he is always experimenting with his various training variables. They rotate many exercises and when they do spot a weakness in a particular lift that is what they zero in on. His coaching has produced numerous Elite lifters and World Champions. Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:01:14 -0400 From: Wade Hanna Subject: Louie explanation (kind of long...) I got a couple e-mails about Louie's system and in the course of responding I though I would share some of my ideas with the rest of the list. It might spark some conversation as well. Hopefully, it will answer some questions about Louie's system to anyone who wasn't present for the past discussions. For the true experts on Louie's system I would appreciate any feedback on this to see if my interpretations are correct. So here it is...hope everyone enjoys. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Got to thinking here and I might have a simple (not short) answer for you. I think the problem with understanding Louie's system is trying to decipher how all these funky exercises he talks about go together. Think of it this way, you have two dynamic (speed) days, and two maximal effort days. They will look like this... 1. Speed Bench day 2. Maximal SQ/DL assistor day 3. Maximal Bench assistor day 4. Speed Squat/Box day That is his basic weekly workout. He suggests lifting on Sunday, Monday, Wednesday, Friday. On the speed days (or dynamic) you are going to do your basic competition movement. For the bench day you do benches with a weak grip. I compete with my ring finger on the rings of the bar for bench. My workouts are started at 18" grips. Basically a finger width outside the smooth. I do 8 sets of 3 and every second set I will widen my grip. In essence I do 2 x 3 at four differnt grips (18"-20"-22"-24"). The last grip being pinky on the ring. I will follow with 1 x 3 @ the same 60'ish% weight with a competition grip and then 2 singles @ ~80% with a competition pause. This is the set-up for what Louie is trying to say, you do 8-10 sets that covers the ~100 lifts per month under 80% and with a couple of singles >80% after these sets you get your 20 some lifts above. Maybe you vary the grips or add/subtract sets it is up to you. The principle is to work the majority of your sets with a weak grip. If you are a close grip bencher then you would want to focus on using wider grips. Okay, that is your foundation movement on speed bench day. Speed squat day is a similar philosophy. The idea is to use a sub-maximal weight for high sets with low reps. You are trying to get as many first reps as possible since in PL that is the only one that counts. If you PL what does it matter if you can do 500x10? It is the first rep that will be judged. Louie suggests box squats for this day. I have mixed feelings about boxes. They are a great exercise and should be included but, I don't know if I want them as my foundation motion. If you are a hip/back squatter then you should implement these as your primary squat trainer. I am not and since I have spent a number of years learning my squat form I am not real anxious to change it. I don't think either one is better just different and your body structure will dictate what is better for you. I am currently using free form squats on this day with a repeating pyramid of my weight over the weeks. I use 70-72.5-75% for my training weights and do 8,7,6 sets of 2 respectively. I do the first week with 70% for 8x2, second week with 72.5% for 7x2, and third week with 75% for 6x2. Then I just repeat it. The point is to do these explosively. That is why you use the lighter weight. You can increase the "work" you do by increasing the velocity the weight moves over distance (Force=Mass x Distance and Work=Mass x Distance/Time). I think those are the equations (not really important) but, the principle is compensatory acceleration. So whatever you decide to use is fine but, do them explosively and high volume. Louie actually suggest 6-8 sets of 2. He has varied on the weights, initially he recommended 70-80% and now he is recommending 50-60%. I like the low to mid 70's. The maximal effort days are the days you mimic the big motions with partial or similar movements. This is the day you are handling heavy weights to keep yourself accustomed to it without burning out your nervous system. You should attempt to attack weak points in the motions with these exercises thus the plethora of partial movements in Louie's descriptions. The most important factor is to keep these heavy (90+%). I use 5 x 1 @ 90+% as opposed to the absolute single or max triple Louie suggests. You should try all ways and see what works or even rotate them around for some variety but, make sure you keep the weights near that max. level. Okay, that covers the basic motions for the days that generally tend to stay the same. For all the assistance stuff it is really what you want to use. I basically follow this type of set-up... Dynamic bench day: Speed benches, Flat DB benches, Incline or decline motion, Tricep movements (1-2 exercises), Shoulder work, Upper back, Lats, Calves. Maximal SQ/DL day: Maximal SQ/DL motion, Erector work, Hamstring/Hip work, abdominals (higher reps), back raises/reverse hyperextensions (higher reps). Maximal bench day: Maximal bench motion, Incline or Decline motion (opposite of dynamic day), Tricep motion, Shoulder movement, Upper back, Lats, Calves (higher reps). Dynamic SQ/DL day: Speed/Box squats, Erector work, Hamstring/Hip work, abdominals, back raises/reverse hyperextensions. *NOTE: Italicized motions are ones *I* have included for my best interest. I find them beneficial to continue on a consistant basis. This is the basic formula I utilize as far as what I do on each day. This is what Louie has suggested and as far as what you are working on each day. You need to just plug in the exercises and the set/rep scheme you want. Vary your assistance stuff every 3-4 weeks and you are good to go. I have some consistant things I keep in there because they are working for me. Find what is the best combination for you and go with it. You will have to adjust the volume of exercises to suit your individual capability but, if you try to get some work on each area each day you are going to see some gains. REMEMBER: the exercises you plug in need to be tailored to YOUR weak points. This is how you are going to get optimal results. Once your weak areas are not weak then you are really strong!!! Jason has provided (quite graciously) a pretty comprehensive list of assistance movements on his Louie FAQ. You can use these at your discretion or include motions that you have had success with in the past. The point isn't so much what actual exercise you do but, rather what area are working and why. The dyanmic days for the bench include tri and shoulder work (in that order). These are two of your prime movers for benches so you want to include some work there. Upper back and lats play an active role in benching but, also in your squat and deadlift too. Since generally you won't have much energy on the SQ/DL day it is good to include these exercises on this day. Finally finish with abs and back raises or reverse hypers. These generally are SQ/DL assitors but, again, energy factors so you can do them here. By mixing it a little you get your body ready to lift heavy at all times. You are continuously working areas and thus you generate a high volume of work. The flip side is you need to be careful how much you do on these assistance exercises. Since you are doing work on muscles quite regularly you need to be aware of what your recovery is like. Especially drug free lifters...this is how you get overtrained on this program relatively easily. The SQ/DL days also are broken down into areas, your prime motion followed by some erector work and then hamstrings/hips. I work my calves on this day to insure they get some work too. There are probably some specific areas that are not mentioned directly but, the progression through the areas worked tends to hit just about everything directly or indirectly. I very, very rarely do any type of bicep movement and my arms are at their biggest ever and my curl (when I do them) is stronger than ever as well. If you feel like you are not getting a certain body part and you want to then incorporate it to suit your needs. If you follow the basic formula for what to work on each day you are using a Louie set-up. I think this is what makes the system seem so complex is that there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to how his exercises go together. There really is but, you just need to understand why you do the exercises and what order of bodyparts you work each day. Okay, I hope that this is an easier explanation of how to organize the exercises and set-up. Take your four days, break them down into the respective bodypart areas you will work, and then insert the assistance exercises. Best of luck and let me know if I can offer any mor ideas. Good liftin' -wade Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:48:58 -0400 From: Wade Hanna Subject: Re: Louie explanation (kind of long...) -Reply ------------------------------------------- Sorry this has taken me some time to reply to. I have been a little busy this week so I have included the original stuff too for reference. If anyone on the list feels this is too lengthy then let me know and I will abbreviate for future posts. >>This is the set-up for what Louie is >>trying to say, you do 8-10 sets that covers the ~100 lifts per >>month >>under 80% and with a couple of singles >80% after these sets >>you >>get your 20 some lifts above. Maybe you vary the grips or >>add/subtract sets it is up to you. The principle is to work the >>majority of your sets with a weak grip. If you are a close grip >>bencher then you would want to focus on using wider grips. >I feel these heavier sets are critical, because the system has a >day that >has a good amount of volume, but its too light ! The other day is >too heavy, >and volume is too low. These intermediate sets ( 20 lifts ) are a >must ! I agree the intermediates need to be done but, for different reasons. The "speed" day is high volume with a lighter weight but, if you are doing these explosively, utilizing compensatory acceleration (scientific name), then you will be pretty spent by the end of them. The intermediates IMO are more beneficial to keeping my nervous system accustomed to heavier weights in the primary motion. It gets some work on the maximal effort day but, sometimes those are partial or similar movements. >In my first attempts with his system my squat did not improve >becaue forgot >to take some weights above 50% after speed sets. So when I >tried a raw max >after 6 weeks, I felt it heavy. I think the reason a lot of people don't see great results with Louie's system for squats is the basis of his system off box squats. If you are a hip/back squatter then it is set-up great but, if not then you need to alter it to include some quadricep work. My results have been much more favorable since I have started doing free squats on my volume day with some lighter pause squats at the end. Moving right into some specific quadricep motion immediately afterwards. The utilization of MY squat form is seeing better results with the combination of weights and sets scheme. The volume workout has been more beneficial because I am using Louie's principle of explosive work with volume and getting frequent "first rep" practice but, I am using my preferred squatting style. > >>Speed squat day is a similar philosophy. Louie suggests box >>squats >>for this day. I have mixed feelings about boxes. They are a >>great >>exercise and should be included but, I don't know if I want them >>as my foundation motion. If you are a hip/back squatter then >>you should implement these as your primary squat trainer. >I guess Louie philosophy is that everyone should be a "hip" >squatter. In his >videos he does a lot of criticism about quadricep use during >squats. He goes >to the extreme of saying that if one have too large quadriceps his >technique >may be wrong. Part of it may be an overzealous approach >because he once >ruptured his patelar tendon. He mentions all the time about how >the >hamstrings should be put in the "pre stretch" position. The >glutes and >hamstrings can produce a lot more leverage with a lot less knee >strain. I agree here. Whatever his motivation for endorsing this squat style it works for his lifters in their organizations. IMO the deep squat requirement by many federations is a barrier this squat form has a hard time overcoming. Now there will be some squatters who have incredible hip flexibility and can sink these WAY down but, on the average I don't think most can get as deep. I read a little blurb in MILO about some of the great squatters and how they can "give up their lower back in the hole...blast out, reset, and finish the squat." That isn't the exact quote but, the gist is you get a little roll of the pelvis at the extreme bottom of the squat. I haven't yet seen a squatter who didn't get some roll at the very bottom. Flexibility may be a major factor but, almost all of the pictures, or actual squats I have seen in the hole show either a little or a lot of pelvis tuck. >Interstingly I have been hearing astounishing feats by Olimpic >lifters who >squat very upright and narrow stanced, stuff like 400kg( 880 ) x 5 >raw or >Front squats with 290kg ( 638 ) by Pierro Dimas at 181. Many people have acheived great squats with a variety of styles. I don't think there is a "best" way as much as what is "best" for you individually. Physical characteristics can influence your squat style more than anything else. >> I am not >>and since I have spent a number of years learning my squat >>form I >>am not real anxious to change it. I don't think either one is >>better >>just different and your body structure will dictate what is better >>for you. >Im not sure if box squat will work wonders for me, but Im sure >they can help >with better form, whatever stance or technique you use. >My form improved in Olimpic style squats and Front Squats. I >can tilt my >butt back and keep it there a lot more easily. > >>I am currently using free form squats on this day with a >>repeating >>pyramid of my weight over the weeks. >Louie has also done it with a lifter sucefully. For whatever reason >this guy >was afraid of boxing squats, and regular squats at the right >percentages >worked fine too. >In fact Louie mentions all the time about how Box Squatting is >the hardest >form of squat there is. Im curious to know about any lifters who >tried to >compare two workouts at the same weights and percentages, one >at boxes, the >other with regular squats... what was the hardest ??? >What you think Wade ??? I can't say as one was harder...just different. It focuses on different areas and requires a little different concentration for each motion. They both have a place in my workouts anyway. >>I use 70-72.5-75% for my >>training weights and do 8,7,6 sets of 2 respectively. I do the >>first >>week with 70% for 8x2, second week with 72.5% for 7x2, and >>third >>week with 75% for 6x2. >Where these percentages come from ? A raw max ? A box max ? >Contest max ? Basically I take my contest max or whatever I feel I am at and use that. Some of it is guesstimates and some of it where I think I am at. Unfortunately I am not as precise with my squat percentages as I am with my bench or deadlifts. Due to injury I haven't been in a meet to test my squat and see exactly where it is at lately. >>Then I just repeat it. >Dont you take a max at the 4th or 5th week ? This is supposed to >be done. >Normally it will be a box squat max, may be at your weakest >stance. I usually take a couple of singles at ~80% following my squat speed workout. This helps to keep me accustomed to some heavier stuff and lets me gauge where I am at. With the inception of the free form stuff I am substituting the pauses at the end and will take a couple of 80'ish % singles after each of the three progressive workouts. >>So whatever you decide to use is fine but, do them >>explosively and high volume. Louie actually suggest 6-8 sets >>of 2. >>He has varied on the weights, initially he recommended 70-80% >>and now he is recommending 50-60%. I like the low to mid 70's. >The percentages in the range of 65 to 82% where taken from a >Box Squat max. >The actual percentages of 50 to 60% are taken form contest max. I like to keep a little heavier for the squats than the 50-60% range. I don't train with suit bottoms and I just feel a little better using a slightly heavier weight. Since I am not using the boxes too I am not taxing the erectors as hard and can push a little more weight. I think you need a little extra to coax your quadriceps into really taking some of the brunt. I think you can go easy and your back will accept the majority of the load and not really tax your legs. This can be overcome by being careful but, it is a failsafe for me. > >>The maximal effort days are the days you mimic the big motions >>with partial or similar movements. This is the day you are >>handling heavy weights to keep yourself accustomed to it >>without >>burning out your nervous system. You should attempt to >>attack >>weak points in the motions with these exercises thus the >>plethora >>of partial movements in Louie's descriptions. The most >>important >>factor is to keep these heavy (90+%). I use 5 x 1 @ 90+% as >>opposed to the absolute single or max triple Louie suggests. >Hey Wade, why are you doing this way ? Is it working ? I think >its a good >idea, because sometimes I end the "max effort" wihout having >the feel of a >workout, thats because we pyramid to a max weight, and after >that not much >else can be done, just two or three high effort sets. I didn't feel like I was pushing hard enough to get the full affect of maximal effort. Since some of the motions are awkward I was uncomfortable handling absolute max weights. This way I can get the same amount of work in with a lesser weight and higher volume. It still keeps the weight range high and requires the same maximal effort but, not quite the absolute level. I save that for the meet. >Until now Im progressing on the max effort days, but I have been >wondering >if a first workout of multiple singles ( as you do ) wouldnt make it >easier >to reach heavier poundages at the next one or two workouts and >break >records. I have been seeing better and quicker progression with this approach. It also gives me more time under the bar and more repetitions on the first attempt. I am getting so I can hit my groove almost everytime on the first try...that is what we want right? > >>Okay, that covers the basic motions for the days that generally >>tend to stay the same. For all the assistance stuff it is really >>what >>you want to use. I basically follow this type of set-up... >>Dynamic bench day: Speed benches, Flat DB benches, Incline >>or >>decline motion, Tricep movements (1-2 exercises), Shoulder >>work, >>Upper back, Lats, Calves. >I feel shoulder and chest work can be detrimental here, having a >negative >impact on the max effort day 72 hours later. The first time i tried >the >system, this was one of the reasons for no gains. This is definately possible but, this is why you need to pay especially close attention to the volume of work you do per workout. I am a staunch convert to this type of clustering because with some trial and error I am finding a good mix to produce results. I think it is important to work groups together because part of the challenge of a maximal effort attempt is getting everthing to fire simultaneously. If the muscles don't know how to work together then you won't get optimum performance come 1RM time. >>Maximal SQ/DL day: Maximal SQ/DL motion, Erector work, >>Hamstring/Hip work, abdominals (higher reps), back >>raises/reverse >>hyperextensions (higher reps). >>Maximal bench day: Maximal bench motion, Incline or Decline >>motion (opposite of dynamic day), Tricep motion, Shoulder >>movement, Upper back, Lats, Calves (higher reps). >I see no problems with delt or chest here because you have 96 >hours to >recuperate, and you are not looking for breaking records on the >speed day >not at the first 2 or 3 weeks at least ). As for the breaking records and getting fully recovered. This is, IMO, an area that you need to pay attention to what exercises you are doing on the days. If your maximal effort day is doing Board Presses with 3 boards (a primarily tricep movement) then you need to adjust your speed days tricep work to not hinder it. Part of the whole system is getting all the exercises to work in conjunction. My philosophy is to try and keep a total level of work per group for each cycle I am doing. If this means backing a little off the lower back stuff because I am doing the deadlift peak then so be it. I think you need to plan the arrangement of your exercises to coincide with what you are trying to accomplish. Depending on how much you want to maximize your training is how much you should ponder the way all these things will interact. I am confident that all of the top lifters are very anal when it comes to setting up their workouts. They plan everything and leave a little bit of leeway for those unexpecteds. >>Dynamic SQ/DL day: Speed/Box squats, Erector work, >>Hamstring/Hip work, abdominals, back raises/reverse >>hyperextensions. >During some weeks , I begun introducing seated good mornings >at speed days >for 6 to 10 high reps here, no problems, Ive hit a rack pull record >with the >plates 8" form the floor on the max day. At the next workout I >lowered to 6" >off the floor but pulled less than what I could do from the floor. >So I >STOPED, and said to myself "well, when i hit 4 inches off the >floor i sould >be pulling less, with 2 inches even less, and finally when hitting >the floor >at the 5th week my deadlift should have decreased by 80 pounds >!!! >Right now, Im not sure if one should be able to pull more off the >rack than >off the floor from whatever position... I ask this because >particularly with >the plates 6" from the floor, you can barely use your legs to help >the lift, >but closer to the ground you can. >Does anyone have observed such patern when lowering from >the 8" position , >to 6, then to 4... Is it possible to pull more from the 2" or from the >floor than it is form the 4"or 6", because closer to the ground the >leg is >more involved ??? ( Im a conventional deadlifter ). >Or should one be able to pull more at the rack than off floor from >whatever >pin height ??? >Wade ? Jason ? Any comments ? Part of the problem with rack pulls is you are setting up at awkward postions within the deadlift range of motion. When you start from the floor you get to lock your back and ease into it taking over around the midpoint. When you start from the knees the back is instantly the prime mover and you don't receive any momentum or prep that you normally would from a ground start. I think you should keep your weights for rack pulls separate and specific to the height at which you are pulling. I think rack pulls are great for working portions of the deadlift that may be weak. If your midrange (around knees) is real slow and that is where you stall then work them from a static start at, or just below, that point. Rack pulls and ground pulls are two different exercises so I wouldn't base your DL off your rack pull. -wade ate: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:57:52 -0500 From: "Mike Brookman" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Westside is in Ohio not Massachusetts - -----Original Message----- From: Hayden F Clarke To: strength digest Date: Wednesday, December 02, 1998 1:00 PM Subject: Strength_List: Westside is in Ohio not Massachusetts Hayden, You are greatly misinformed...There is no difference in the practicallity of Louie's system than any other routine. You train the back and abs alot to help increase the stabilizing muscles that are needed for the squat and deadlift. Strong abs and low back mean more weight and strength in the deads and squats. >After reading Louie Simmon's articles in PLUSA and reading about the >positive experiences people on the Strength List have had with his >program, I am interesting in experimenting with it. However I am reluctant >to dive head first into this type of training because I question its >practicality. More specifically, I question whether or not I may reap the >same benefits from the program that other adherents to it do. I do not >have access to boards, chains, flex bands, stability balls, reverse hyper >machines, boxes of various heights, or any of the other "fancy" equipment >which Westsiders utilize. Don't worry, you can modify some of this. I have found a way to modify the reverse hyper, although I am not able to use the amount of weight I can on the machine itself. I have never used the chains or bands because I don't have access to them but my gains have still been wonderful without them. You can make your own boards by simply nailing a couple of 2x6's together and taking them with you to the gym. I don't see where the gym you go to is going to stop you from doing this..its not like it takes up any space anyway..I have never used the stability balls or any of the "fancy" equipment..I stuck with the basics and my gains have continued to come anyway. As for boxes..use a flat bench if you have too but try and find one that sits rather lower than the normal ones, my gym has one of these so it works..although now that I am doing really low boxes I just stick a couple of boxes used in the aerobics room or the ones some use for stiff legged deadlifts in order to get low enough... > I do not have a parking lot on which I can go >pull a sled. Even if I did have this, I don't own 45 plates to place on >the apparatus. Never done them myself but shouldn't be all that big of a deal. > My impression of the Westside program is that it works wonders, >but only if you have any one of three things: >1. money to purcahse various apparati, provided you have space in which to >put the equipment >2. access to Westside Barbell club itself >3. access to a gym which caters directly to the needs of powerlifters. >I do not have any of these three items. Not necessary at all..you don't need to have all the special equipment to use the routine..I don't and it has worked great.. Don't need to be in Westside itself to utilize the program either.. And I go to a gym where its mostly BBers and some PLers but that doesn't effect me at all. I don't have a power cage at the moment but I will when I switch gyms in the first of the year..but I find ways to modify this..we have a squat rack with a self spotting section where the bar can rest and I use this for the rack lockouts..For floor presses there is another squat rack that has no self spotting thing that has low pins and I get someone to lift the weight off the rack for me and then I proceed. By no means does my gym cater to PLers at all and I continue to make great gains..I am switching in January to the World's here in order to get more access to some things that I don't have now... > Furthermore, I question how well a Westside program works if the >lifter does not have Louie Simmons' personal supervision. Although people >seem to overlook this fact, the reason Louie is arguably the best strength >coach there is is because he is the best at diagnosing a lifter's >weaknesses and finding a remedy for them subsequently. In my opinion, the >strength of the Westside program lies not in the program itself, rather it >lies in its administrator. I agree that he is the master so to speak but many have done quite well without his direct supervision. Get his videos and see how the lifts are performed and then have your training partner watch them as well and hopefully you will know enough to be able to watch each other and see that you are doing them correctly. As for weaknesses, its simple..tell us where you have the most trouble on your lifts and then you will get plenty of inof here..there are many here that do this regularly..Deepsquatter and Dave Tate to name a few... > We must admit folks that the concepts that >make up Louie's conjugate method are not new (my main man Keith made a >similar point in "Old Time Training.") Louie Simmons can tell you that >himself. Of course, he studied these types of routines and read all he could and experimented thus producing the Westside techniques..I don't believe that he would even say that he invented them either..he's not a Phillips brother anyway..LOL Mike Brookman Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:02:02 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: Westside is in Ohio not Massachusetts Hayden wrote, >After reading Louie Simmon's articles in PLUSA and reading about the >positive experiences people on the Strength List have had with his >program, I am interesting in experimenting with it. However I am reluctant >to dive head first into this type of training because I question its >practicality. Not a problem. Most decent gyms have equipment which comes very close to a Simmons type of idea. I bring chains and boards into our gym and leave them there - but I got permission to do so. You might want to show the athletic director some SImmons results and see if he would consider purchasing these items. Reverse hypers can be done on a hyper machine. Use the step-up aerobic equipment for boards. If you buy the tapes and understand the program you'll be able to improvise. > In conclusion, I would like some perspectives on my beliefs and >maybe some advice on how I can apply Louie's methods practically. > This is a good point. Deepsquatter and I both noted that we weren't sure how effective our programs were and what we were missing was Simmons as a coach. However, the speed day does not have a huge exercise selection. For the other day about all I can do is stumble along trying to analyze my own weaknesses. (Hmmm, right now it appears that my problem is I'm too weak!) Funny thing is that I'm better at adapting the program to my brother and daughter, whom I coach. Their weaknesses and relative strengths are far easier for me to figure than my own. I'm hoping that if they start to understand the program they in turn will be able to analyze me. But for what its worth I think the program done less optimally still works as good for me as any other program I've tried! I'm sure it could be better, but it does work. If I would just stick to it and avoid these 'extra' exercises I'd be much better off! - - Keith Hobman Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 11:11:37 -0800 From: Daniel Yourg Subject: Strength_List: Westside training methods > I do not >have access to boards, chains, flex bands, stability balls, reverse hyper >machines, boxes of various heights, or any of the other "fancy" equipment >which Westsiders utilize. I do not have a parking lot on which I can go >pull a sled. Even if I did have this, I don't own 45 plates to place on >the apparatus. To some degree in this situation I believe "where there is a will there is a way." I have enough financial resources to have purchased some of the equipment you have mentioned, train at a gym that has some of the items, and have improvised on the rest. I purchased a sled, others make their own. I purchased used weights to put on my sled. I pull the sled in my alley. It can also be transported by car to be used at a field or cement surface. I do not have use of a glute/ham machine but using a sit up board, facing backwards on my knees, feet locked in the board, lowering myself onto a partially inflated ball (that I purchased at a childrens educational store) under my thighs/stomach I can simulate the movement very well. Others use different apparatus's. Louis Simmons also says pull throughs can be done in place of the glute/ham. Pulls throughs are a great exercise. I do not have a reverse hyper machine, but I made an attachment out of metal scrap, had it welded, and fit it into a power rack. I place a board into the power rack to lay on. So far I have worked up to 155 pounds for 12 reps. I read about this in Stuart McRoberts book "The Insiders Guide to Weight-Training Technique." Chains can be purchased through different avenues. Possibly the person who maintains the gym can be talked into their usefulness. Or maybe one can train where they are allowed. I use bumper plates in the gym where I train as my "box." I like being able to add and reduce the plates to adjust for different heights. Some people make their own boxes. I bought some 2x6 boards, had them cut, and nailed them together for board presses. I do not consider any of the above "fancy." I was fascinated enough with this style of training that I tried to make it work however I could. I do not have Louis Simmons as my coach, but I read everything he writes, and purchased some of his videos. I have also learned a tremendous amount from this list and Jason's Strength site. There are many ways to train. I chose to give this way a try. Dan Yourg Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:58:33 -0600 From: "Jim Mcgee" Subject: Strength_List: Re: Strength-Digest: V1 #206 Hayden, I live in rural Missouri. I'm the only serious PL in this area. The gym I lift at is similar to the one you describe. I went to a three day Louie type program 12 weeks ago. I added 65 pounds to my total, (which for my size is to embarrassing to mention,) after the first 8 week program. Our gym doesn't have bands, chains etc. Heck, half the time I don't even have access to a spotter. What I did was make due with what we had: we have a short box, 10 inches high, so my Friday speed day is light box squats below parallel, leg extensions then on to speed bench followed by heavy DB presses. DL are often done with light weights while I stand on 45 pound plates to work on explosiveness off the floor. Heavy floor presses are done off the power squat cage.......etc. Sometime my fellow gym rats, (small mice really :-) will laugh....until the heavy weight gets loaded on bar on max lift days. Yippee! With a little imagination and a lot of experimentation you can make the program work for you. I have found it be extremely helpful in my form and strengthening my weak points. I fully expect within the next year to post a not so embarrassing total:-) Jim McGee Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:00:59 -0500 From: "Dave Tate" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Westside is in Ohio not Massachusetts Many seem to forget that most of this equipment you speak of (chains, bands, sled,etc) have only been being used at our club for the past couple years (the reverse hyper has been there forever). We made great gains with out this equipment, then with any system the gains slowed down. This equipment helped to break sticking points. A few years from now there will be different equipment and we wont use the equipment we have now as much. We used to do a lot of manaray squats, belt squats, and other exercises. The key is the different exercises. People just starting our system really don't need the chains,bands,sled etc. Just stick to the basics of a speed day and a max effort day, and keep your core (abs & back) strong. Louie is great at finding people's sticking points, but if you ask any lifter I'm sure he can tell you his sticking point. Finding the exercise to fix it is a different story. If you switch the exercises every few weeks you will find by trail and error what works (you will feel much stronger on speed days if you find the right exercise) Being with other lifters does help but many powerlifters train alone. I say go for it if you believe it will work, if you don't think it will then don't do it. No matter what program you use if you don't think it will work then it wont. Dave Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:20:27 -0600 From: "Chris and Angie Zell" Subject: RE: Strength_List: ws woes I hate to say it but this is a rather light workout program. There isn't even a dynamic squat day depicted here. Most people who switch to a WSB program take some time to adapt to the additional volume. It took me about a month or two. My back and hams are what usually stay sore for me. Here is how my routine has been set up for the past year or so, however I have a new one in the works: Day 1- speed bench press day Bench press- 10x3 @ 55% max 60 sec rest between sets, 3 grips (close, med, wide) 2 tricep exercise (1 pressing, 1 extension)- 4x10 2 delt exercies (lateral/front raises)- 4 x 6-8 Day 2- max effort squat and deadlift 1 max effort exercise (ie. rack deadlifts, manta ray squats)- sets of 3 until you can't do any more, then 1RM supplementary accessory (power cleans, pull throughs, etc)- 5x8 core accessory #1 (lower back) 4x10 core accessory #2 (abs) 4x10 2 bicep exercises (heavy curling movement, follower by a hammer variation) 4x6-8 Day 4- max effort bench 1 max effort exercise (ie. rack lockouts, board press)- sets of 3 until you can't do any more, then 1RM 1-2 tricep exercises (always an extension)-4x8 if barbell, 4x10 if dumbell weighted dips (4x6, until you I can do 4x10, then add weight) 1 delt exercise (always plate raises)- 4 sets 8-10 reps Day 6- dynamic squat and deadlift day Box squat- 8-12x2 approx 50-70% 45-75 sec rest between sets 1 supplementary accessory (partial deads, SLDL's, etc)- 5x8 core accessory #1 (lower back) 4x10 core accessory #2 (abs) 4x10 2 lat movements (1 rowing movement followed by 1 pulling movement) 4x8-10 seated calves 4x10 Chris Zell Montgomery, Al In response to: Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 1:55 PM Subject: Strength_List: ws woes i started my ws program about a month and a half ago due to lack of bench power, i started to get a lot sorer than normal in my tris and lower back, i thought it was just me addapting to a new program but it still goes on. i am wandering if it is to much volume? is any one else experiance this? monday-me bench floor press 3 by 3,2 by 1 barbell ext 4 by 5 lateral raise 3 by 8 wendsday me dead day goodmornings 3 by 3 rows 3 by 8 shrugs 3 by 8 weighted sit ups friday-speed bench 10 by 3 tri ext 4 by 10 lateral raise 3 by 10 saterday- if i got time light dead day Jason R.Arbogast pasco, washington Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 21:44:36 EDT From: Mcsiff@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: CONJUGATE SEQUENCE & SIMMONS On 5/12/00, khobman@sk.sympatico.ca writes: << Whooo, boy, that was funny! Great joke, Jack! Ummm, Jack - it was a joke, right!!! Jack wrote, >Louie Simmons conjugate training is just a fancied up version of good ol JOE WIEDERS muscle confusion principle. And Joe probably stole it from somebody else. >> ***Actually, if one reads any of Louie's work, he always is very ready to full credit to the fact that he is simply applying the system of "conjugate training" that was developed and perfected in Russia in the early 1960s by Dr Verkhoshansky - not like so many other training gurus around us, who, like Wieder, all think that they just about invented the universe before God got round to it! Conjugate training has absolutely nothing to do with trying to "confuse" the muscles. On the contrary, it is intended to condition the entire neuromotor system to minimise so-called "confusion" between the different motor qualities involving the muscles. Conjugation is used to link together in an optimal way how one should link together the training of several of the different motor qualities (such as strength, power, and muscle endurance). This means that at any given stage of training there will be a certain contribution made by each of the motor qualities, so that there is not an entire emphasis on , say, strength alone, while power and hypertrophy are totally ignored. Each stage and method of training lays the foundation for the next phase by careful links or "conjugations" between successive stages. Conjugation literally means "yoking together" or "linking together", these being the closest translations to the original Russian used by Dr V. Sometimes, the term "linked sequence" is also used as a synonym for the same idea. Here are some excerpts on the concepts of "conjugate sequence" training from "Supertraining" (1999, Ch 5, p294-296 and Ch 6 p370-374). Unfortunately, I cannot include the appopriate diagrams, but the printed matter should be adequate to show that conjugation is nothing like "muscle confusion". If anyone would like to read more about this very successful system of training, the "Soviet Sports Review" edited by Dr Yessis contains many articles and programs using this method. - ------------------------------------------------------- THE CONJUGATE SEQUENCE SYSTEM In the training of highly qualified athletes it always becomes necessary to raise the developmental level of any of the basic qualities of the motor system which may be limiting improvement of the specific motor abilities. A logical solution would appear to be the introduction of a particular means capable of eliminating this insufficiency. However, this measure, which displays a very low probability of transferring specific motor abilities to the given sporting activity, is not very effective. If a specially sequenced system, known as the conjugate sequence system, is regularly used in training, then the likelihood that such situations will arise is minimised and the situation will rapidly improve. There are essentially two main systems of organising long term training: the concurrent system and the conjugate sequence system. The concurrent system involves the parallel training of several motor abilities, such as strength, speed and endurance, over the same period, with the intention of producing multi-faceted development of physical fitness. Although research has corroborated the effectiveness of this system, the subjects used in these studies were generally conducted on athletes of lower qualification. While the negative influence of the complex system is not apparent with less advanced athletes, it becomes very noticeable with elite athletes, in whom it produces only average results. To evoke a more powerful training effect in athletes who have already accommodated to high levels of stimulation, it becomes necessary to impose intense phases of uni-directional loading on the body. This is precisely the purpose of the conjugate sequence system. The conjugate sequence system (sometimes translated from the Russian as the coupled successive system) involves successively introducing into the training programme separate, specific means, each of which has a progressively stronger training effect, and coupling them sequentially to create favourable conditions for eliciting the cumulative effect of all the training loads. The conjugate sequence use of unidirectional means, integrated by separately developing individual, specific motor abilities (e.g. strength, speed and strength-endurance), can be an invaluable method of organising special strength training for more advanced athletes. Usually, it involves training a carefully chosen sequence of specific motor abilities, each of which is confined largely to a given period, a scheme that saves time and energy. It is appropriate to use concentrated loading primarily for enhancing the effectiveness of the SPP (Special Physical Preparation) phase, and for this, one may use loading of any primary emphasis. As is known, the 'degree of contrast' in training (i.e. the alternation of means with different beneficial training effects over certain optimal periods) is a factor which enhances the functional responsiveness of the body. With the conjugate sequence scheme, this factor optimally enhances the effectiveness of the special strength training. One should take into account some of the characteristics for systematically prescribing special strength training to yield a sufficiently large training effect. Therefore, it is appropriate to devise training chiefly on the basis of a sequential system of means: ð to create favourable conditions for systematically developing specific motor abilities ð to enhance the effectiveness of the special strength training by systematic, periodic revision of the training means. . . . . . During each stage, one should use exercises with different training effects, specifying the order and timing of all the means. It is appropriate for qualified athletes (who are at a high level of special strength fitness) to use primarily a complex system of means for: ð producing the specific training effect of the complex of means ð preserving the magnitude of the training effect. The latter should be realised by the sequential replacement of one complex combination of means with another. It should be emphasized that the long-term use of the same means, even if the volume is increased, not only will not increase one's level of special fitness but will also decrease the existing level of speed-strength and especially, maximum strength. . . . Unidirectional emphasis on qualities such as strength or endurance may be used not only in individual workouts, but also during each microcycle. Research has shown that unidirectional training over periods as long as 4-12 weeks can be very effective, especially if the intensity is gradually increased for each form of loading in the given cycle. Moreover, the effectiveness of the conjugate sequence system with advanced athletes is such that the training volume over a macrocycle can be reduced by as much as 20%, a phenomenon referred to as the acceleration of specific adaptation (see Ch 5.4.2). . . . . The system is not without its dangers, since concentrated loading is very stressful and, besides increasing the potential for overtraining, it can decrease motor qualities such as speed-strength. After a phase of emphasis on heavy strength training, there may be an increase in muscle stiffness and a loss of explosive strength, sporting skill or speed. Since the conjugate sequence system is based on exploitation of the delayed training effect, a diminished loading and restorative period has to be observed after a given concentrated loading phase to allow the body to supercompensate to the desired level of preparedness. The gains elicited, for instance, by 4-8 week concentrated blocks of strength, speed-strength or speed training, may occur most commonly after a latency period of 1-3 weeks, so it is essential for the athlete not to lose patience and hasten into the next concentrated phase without adequate restoration. Not only does premature imposition of concentrated loading suppress the delayed training effect of the previous stage, but it also lowers the effectiveness of future training. - --------------------------------------------------- Dr Mel C Siff Denver, USA mcsiff@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:22:53 -0600 From: Sean Anderson Subject: Re: Strength_List: Pause squats + CHAINS Robert: the following is from my Notes of Simmon's "Secrets of training" Seminar which are posted at . hope these notes help with chain workout. "Contrast Method" on Speed Day Chains and bands are part of what Simmons calls the "contrast method" - one of the problems with developing speed and explosive strength is that in the power lifts the heaviest resistance is met in the early part of the lift but resistance decreases as lock-out is approached due to changing leverage. To develop speed and explosiveness optimally it is desirable to have increasing resistance to counteract the increasing ease caused by more favorable lock-out leverage. Simmons believes chains and bands help to achieve this increasing resistance which aids in developing explosiveness. Simmons use chains of 5/8 gauge that are 5 feet long and weighing about 20 pounds. Chains are attached to the squat bar so that at the bottom position most of the chains are lying on the floor or half off of the floor. As the lifter ascends toward lockout the chains are taken up so that their weight is continually added to the total weight as the lifter goes up. This can be used also for the bench and deadlifts exercises. Simmons states that there are three advantages to using chains in this manner: 1) At the beginning of the concentric phase of the lift the original weight for explosive training is maintained [=50-60% of 1RM for squats and 55% for 1RM bench . . . for 1RM "raw" bench PR use 60% instead.] 2) Only the upper and top portion of the lift is overloaded which ordinarily would received less work stimulus due to increasing favorable leverage towards lock-out. 3) The nervous system "learns" to drive harder to the top to outrun the increasing weight of the chains and this helps develop speed and explosive strength. In a previous issue of PLUSA Simmons records an experiment in which a squat bar was loaded with 415 lbs and two chains attached so that at lock-out the lifter would have 455 lbs while at below parallel the lifter would have half of the chains lying on the floor leaving 435 lbs on the bar. Chains were added to the bar at intervals (with 50 second rest breaks between sets) according to the following schedule: Set No. No. of Chains Weight at Weight at Added Bottom Lock-Out 1 0 415 415 2 0 415 415 3 1 435 455 4 1 435 455 5 1 435 455 6 2 455 495 7 3 475 535 8 4 495 575 9 5 515 615 10 0 415 415 11 0 415 415 12 0 415 415 13 0 415 415 The final four sets are invariably done more explosively than the original two sets without the chains. Simmons claims that this immediate effect is virtually unheard of in conventional training. Simmons states that these exercises added from 70 to 100 pounds to the totals of several of his lifters in periods ranging from 6 to 12 weeks of use. He did not explain explicitly what the "contrast" in the contrast method was but I gather that it refers to the contrast between the reality of decreasing resistance in the actually competition lift and the experience of increasing resistance in the chain and band-assisted exercises. As a rule of thumb Simmons suggests that those with squat PRs of less than 600 use 2 sets of chains (4 total) regularly and that those with a PR between 600 and 800 use up to 3 sets (6 total) regularly. You should do two sets without chains, then add one set of chains for 2 or 3 sets and then another for another two of three sets, etc. and then return to doing 2 to 4 sets without any chains to experience the increased explosiveness. The above weight of 415 would have been appropriate for a person with a squat PR between 690 and 830 lbs. Good mornings with chains would help build acceleration for the deadlift. Robert Campbell wrote: > I have been reading a lot about this chain stuff and I hate to sound > ignorant but I can't for th elife of me figure it out can someone please > explain how u do a chain setup and what the benifits are. > bobc Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 19:51:39 -0400 From: "Jeffry Deigan" Subject: Re: meet report First of all thanks to all who have offered me congratulations on my meet. I would like to thank all personally but I do not want to use up all of the bandwidth on the List. Second, Philip S. Feairheller wrote: >Jeff- > >Can you outline what you have done with the Westside system to "adapt" it to >a raw lifter? Sure Philip. In the last few weeks I have been asked this quite often. When I get a chance I may put this all in a file so I can fire it off to anyone who asks. Basically, I changed very little. The main change was with the percentages used on box squat day. Louie recommends using 50-60% of a meet squat for box squats but this would not mean a lot to a raw lifter that could lift significantly more (I won't say a number to avoid another ugly flame war) if wearing IPA legal equipment. So what I did was look back at some of Louie's older articles where he used to use 65%-82% of a max taken on the actual box. Eventually he figured out that 65% of the box max was 50% of the meet max. 50:65 = 60:78 (apparently he realized that 82% was too high) so I changed my box percentages to be 65-78% of a box max taken in the gym. After a few meets I was able to figure out how that 65% corresponded to my meet squat (around 60%) and now every time I add 15 lbs to my meet squat I just add 10 lbs to my weights. As for the bench Louie has said several times to use 55% of a shirt max or 60% of a raw max, so no controversy there. What I did not change was anything else. I found that even without a shirt my bench weakness was still triceps and my SQ/DL weakness was still hips/hamstrings. At first I paused all of my benches in training, thinking I should because I was raw. After attending on of Dave Tate's seminars I decided not to pause anymore but to do the ballistic reversals as proscribed and my bench took off (385 before, 420 since). One caveat, and this should go for raw and equipped lifters, is that the system can be tough to understand. I did a lot of things wrong before attending Dave's seminar and I am sure there are still some things I am doing incorrectly. Another point though is drug free status. This has not facilitated any changes in the system at all. In contrast I seem to be less overtrained than when I used a conventional system. Dave also told me that several drug free women (talk about low testosterone) train at WS also with no modifications. I would also like to address Jon Agiato's comments below. Note that all statements below are only my interpretations of the system. I do not pretend to have Louie's or Dave's ear or a complete knowledge of the system. What I have done is read a lot, watched the videos, attended a seminar, and trained at WS for 1 speed BP workout. >I think the high volume (twice a days, >thirty set workouts, twelve sets of squats, etc.) WS uses a fairly low volume. I do 4 workouts per week, 4-5 exercises per workout totalling around 20-25 work sets, but half of those sets are only done for 1 to 3 reps. Any extra workouts (which I do not do) would be light sessions taking only 15 or so minutes designed to improve recovery. >and high percentage of >bodybuilding type lifts (triceps pushdowns, 100 rep sets, etc Tricep pushdowns are typically done after a decidely non-bodybuilder type tricep exercise to get some extra work in if I did not get enough reps (40 with a BB, 60 with a DB). I have never heard anyone from WS advocate 100 rep sets. You may be referring to Chris Taylor's 100 rep tricep Hell, which AFIAK has nothing to do with WS but something CT came up with. Also AFIAK he does 100 TOTAL reps, not a 100 rep set. > The entire system as it >appears to me is based on training the easiest portion of the lift (i.e. the >lockouts) Actually the system is based on large part on working the hardest portion of a lift using the hardest/weakest grip/stance/bar. >with absurd exercises using rubber bands and chains. Why absurd? Some people have commented that bands/chains help because they make the top of a lift harder, thus enhancing work done on that portion. That may be true, but I think their main benefit is in increasing acceleration and force generation (F=ma) by forcing you to apply more force just to keep the bar moving. >This looks >to me just like guys doing partials for their ego, knowing the suit, wraps, >and shirt will take care of the bottom (of course not totally, but enough so >that one can use a weight they could previously only do partials with for a >full rep in competition). I disagree here as well. It is true that in raw meets lifters very rarely miss squats at the top, many benches are missed at the top. >The whole system is designed to work with gear as >far as I can tell, and I'm not just talking about suits and wraps. See my comment above about drug free women. >Jeff has made great progress using it, Thanks. >but as we all know reports of >progress do not make a system. True. >Individual genetics must be taken into >consideration. Well, I am not sure about how we measure genetics. When I graduated high school I weighed 150 lbs at 5'8 and my father nicknamed me stretch since I was so skinny. I was however blessed with the ability to eat more than anyone I had ever met so maybe that is my genetic advantage, since I am now around 235. >Not trying to start a war, just putting in my two cents as I >see it. Fair enough. Jeff Deigan Yonkers, NY Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 08:34:38 -0400 From: "William Frenick" Subject: Westside for RAW (was Re: meet report) Greetings, I switched to a modified westside program, and have seen great results from it. Instead of doing a lot of lockout movements like board presses and the like, I substituted in more lat work and dumbbell movements because my weakpoint is right off the chest in the bench. However, the addition of the dynamic days has done wonders for my explosiveness, and the emphasis on ab work has really helped my squat. Other modifications I made to gear the program to my needs was to add some deadlift work, both through using it as a ME squat movement and adding a"regular" deadlift workout every 4 weeks or so. I'm not at the level where I can not deadlift and rely on my squat work to get me through. I feel the same way with all the band and chain stuff... IMHO, I feel that stuff works great for the really experienced lifters who are looking to get that couple extra pounds here and there because they are already so strong. I'm still making that beginner progress, and feel I have a lot of work to do just perfecting my forms on my squat especially. Time and practicality are also issues... I work out of my basement and don't have lots of time to devote to lifting right now, so I stick to the basics. Maybe when I feel I've gone as far as I can with these basics I'll start adding chains and bands. I don't want to fail to mention that Jeff Deigan helped me a great deal in developing my Westside mutation. Thanks Jeff! Like someone said, Westside is really working great for Jeff, and its working great for me, too. Now, if my total could only be as good as his squat/deadlift subtotal, I'd be a happy man. Thanks, Bill