From: drsquat@aol.com (Dr Squat) Subject: Re: Bench Press - elbows in or out? Date: 12 Jan 1996 10:06:35 -0500 Several powerlifters I've known benched rather heavy weights with elbows in. On the other hand, several bench well with elbows out. However, while there are some notable exceptions, the best benchers in the world almost universally bench as follows: Begin the push with elbows at around 45 degrees (anterior delts). Following the initial thrust upward, their elbows begin to flare outward, and the bar takes a circular path upwards and back. This technique shifts emphasis sequentially from anterior delts, to chest, to triceps. Through it all, all three major muscles are acting, despite the emphasis shifts. Fred Hatfield, Ph.D. Dr Squat From: Rbenson@enterprise.powerup.com.au (Ron Benson) Subject: Re: bench press questions Date: 16 Jan 1996 03:15:06 GMT In article <4d6luu$jag@hacgate2.hac.com>, lakey@eagle.hd.hac.com (Michael Lakey) says: > >In article <4cmljt$rk0@ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, dsandler@ix.netcom.com (David >Sandler) writes: >|> >|> Daniel Teitelbaum wrote: >|> >|> >|> >|> >|> >2. How wide a grip do most people use when trying to max bench? Is >|> >there an optimum or is it different for different people? >|> >|> Max bench will occur at different grips for each individual because of >|> varying anatomical considerations. Something to consider is trying to >|> limit the distance in which you push. In other words, with your grip >|> close, you have to move the bar as much as afew inches farther to >|> lockout. With grip wider, the distance you push is less. Less distance >|> pushing allows the force output to last shorter, and threrefore with >|> an explosive start you create more power (because less time is needed, >|> p=fv/t) >|> > >This is all true, but with a little experimentation most people find that their >max bench press occurs at a grip a little narrower than they are used to. This >is a generalization, but most people can add a few pounds to their bench max by >emphasizing their triceps a little more. >-- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Mike Lakey - Hughes Training, Inc. - lakey@eagle.hd.hac.com I am having a little trouble understanding how the triceps are able to cope with the extra poundage in a bench, when the chest is a larger muscle than the tri's. By narrowing your grip the emphasis is placed more on the tri's but they are more prone to failure than the larger chest muscle The initial push relies on the pec's and deltoid but after that the tri's take over for the lock out but you cant lock out if you can't get the bar past that initial sticking point with the pec's. Also fast explosive contractions use less muscle fibre recruitment than a slower more controlled contraction. This will increase fibre recruitment and place overload on that muscle causing the muscle to adjust and overcome next time round. From: dsandler@ix.netcom.com (David Sandler) Subject: Re: bench press questions Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:45:00 GMT >I'm not suggesting that you should use your triceps more than your chest when >benching. The pecs are the primary muscle emphasized in the bench press, but >the triceps provide quite a lot of assistance in the lift, no matter what the >grip. All I am suggesting is that the grip which maximizes the balance of power >between the pecs & tris (& shoulders) is slightly narrower that what most of us >are used to. >-- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Mike Lakey - Hughes Training, Inc. - lakey@eagle.hd.hac.com What exactly do you mean by balancing power. If you are trying to say maximum power developed in the push, you are wrong. Max force is developed shortly after the chest where acceleration is at is greatest. Max power is developed when velocity and force are very high with relatively short duration of lift. By keeping the arms at the 90 degree angle as described in my earlier post you will develop the most power (its been proven by myself and others using EMG and Accelerometers and Force Plates and Slow Motion Cinematography). However, if you are talking about getting an even distribution of work over the triceps and pecs you may in fact be correct. The question needed to be answered is what are we looking for. In a single rep max bench you want to develop as much force and power as you can (otherwise it will be difficult to make the lift). If you are just looking for adequate development of musculature, and doing multiple reps, then varied grip will attain that. The chest will develop the acceleration, as its contractile velocity is greater then the deltoid and triceps in the bench press. David Sandler dsandler@ix.netcom.com From: dsandler@ix.netcom.com (David Sandler) Subject: Re: bench press questions Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:44:54 GMT >I am having a little trouble understanding how the triceps are able to cope with the extra >poundage in a bench, when the chest is a larger muscle than the tri's. >By narrowing your grip the emphasis is placed more on the tri's but they are more prone >to failure than the larger chest muscle Actually, failure is occuring at the deltoids. >The initial push relies on the pec's and deltoid but after that the tri's take over for >the lock out but you cant lock out if you can't get the bar past that initial sticking >point with the pec's. You will always have a sticking point. The sticking point occurs when the leverage of your press is at the weakest point, causing a decceleration in the push. This point varies from individual to indvidual. The leverage disadvantage is due the nature of the shoulder joint, and its inability to move in a linear fashion. Since it is a ball in socket type joint, there will always be a curvilinear path, and a slight transition phase from pec to tricep (with weakening occuring at the deltoids). >Also fast explosive contractions use less muscle fibre recruitment than a slower more >controlled contraction. This will increase fibre recruitment and place overload on that muscle >causing the muscle to adjust and overcome next time round. Not true, fiber recruitment occurs at various levels. Scientifically proven studies (which I can document) show that more fiber recrutiment occurs with explosive type training then slower (however, sources show both methods have proven fiber recruitment). The problem that lies here is that to overcome the sticking point, you have two choices: continue to train slow and gain more strength so your sticking point feels less obvious, or try to bypass the sticking point with an explosive start creating high force by accelrating the bar, and possible enough to overcome the sticking point. In any event there will always be a sticking point. Also strength gains occur both way. IMO it seems more logical to create a huge force when looking at a max bench. David Sandler dsandler@ix.netcom.com From: welsh@exis.net (Michael Tench) Subject: Re: How close will work the inside chest? Date: 7 Mar 1996 14:54:38 GMT In article <4hlpn5$rvv@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, cq992@aol.com says... > >How close in relation to shoulder width should I place my hands in order >to work primarily the inside of the chest instead of working (on one side) >the whole chest, and (on the other side) the triceps? I am approximately >six feet tall, and have slightly narrow shoulders in comparison to most >other people. Thanks, in advance. It does not matter where you place your hands, if you are trying to isolate the inner pectoral vs. the outer. THERE IS NO WAY TO ISOLATE INNER VS. OUTER PECTORALS. The pectoral muscle connects to the humorous, and fans out to the sternum. When a muscle fiber contracts, it cannot contract only one side, the whole fiber is used in the contraction...hence...the whole fiber is worked. You can however slightly vary the upper pectoral from the lower. (remember the direction of the fiber determines if you can work one area more than the other). Please keep in mind, that I have simplified my argument to a great degree. Have fun working out! Ad Astrada, Michael Tench ms, cpft (nasm) welsh@exis.net From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: Chest and Shoulders Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 01:33:32 GMT V.Parker@bradford.ac.uk (V PARKER) wrote: >I've been training for nearly a year now, admittedly my diet is far from >perfect yet. >I'm having problems with chest and shoulders >Doing benching i get a little pump, but not much, and when i do press >behind neck for my shoulders , i get th eburn during but in the days after >my shoulders don't feel lik ethey have been pushed at all. >These two places have changed very little whilst everywhere else seems ok. >bench atm is 1.5 plates a side olympic bar, press is 5kg a side on 30kg >smith machine. >Can anyone give me advice etc on what i should do ?????? >Flat bench flyes ??? Never!!! First, how may sets are you doing? To failure? How many times a week? My recommendations would to be train on the flat bench only 1x a week. Also, train the shoulders and tris the same with only one exercise a piece. Try the following.... Set up a power rack and a flat bench inside it. Place the pins to where you can just squeeze under the bar with it on the pins. Bench in the following way. Practice pulling your shoulders down and back. Notice your chest pops out. You should maintain this positiion throughout the set. No caving the shoulders in at the top. Place your hands where at the bottom of the movement (when the weight is on the pins) your forearms are perpendicular to the ground and your upper arms are at 45 degree angles to your trunk. Now to start the movement, squeeze the bar off the pins. It will be tough and require a temporary reduction in weight, but your strength will shoot up. Complete the lift and lower twice as slow as you raised. Lower the bar to the pins. Pause and remain tight. Count to 2. Press again. Start out with 2 progressive warm-ups and, say, 3 sets. Drop the amount of work sets and increase the warm-ups as the weights start to get tough. As to the shoulders and tris, set up a power rach in the same way except for the shoulders in which you'll use a sharp incline bench. For the tris, do close grip benches with your hands slightly out from your sides. The technique is the same as the bench in both cases(except the hand placement in the close-grip, of course). If you are training more than 2x a week, you'll have to cut the sets down. Say 2 sets bench, 1set sholder, 1 set close grip; all work sets of course. Forget about the pump or burn. Just focus on moving heavy poundage in good form for a small # of sets. For more info, consult the works of Brooks Kubik in Hardgainer. Good luck and e-mail me if you have any ?'s. -- Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu From: garry@mda.ca (Garry Holmen) Subject: Re: powerlifting Date: 27 May 1996 16:59:41 GMT Suka Zimmerman (afn45077@afn.org) wrote: : > 1) Healthy shoulders... do rotator cuff exercises to strengthen them and : > be careful with exercises that are harmful to them. A damaged rotator : > cuff can keep you from benching heavy ever again. : : Could you name a few? The best piece of info I can point you to is Health For Life's 7 Minute Rotator Cuff Solution book. It's well worth the tiny bit of cash that you will lay out for it. : > 2) The bench press has more to do with the delts and tricep power then : > the chest. To that end I would advise you to nix the 2nd bench day : > and work on exercises that tax the delts and triceps. Heavy rack lock : > outs, board presses for the delts and narrow bench press for those : > tris in the very least. : > : What are board presses? Board presses are a movement described in one issue of PLUSA where you bench like you normally would except your put a couple of 4"x4" boards (or so) across your chest and lower the bar to the boards. Pause and push >from there. You will find by getting the right height you will actually improve your sticking point in the bench press. Of course I have to admit that I feel like a doofus when I do these too. 8^) But of course veryone in my gym thinks I'm weird when I do deadlifts too so what the heck. : > 3) Perfect your form... understand your groove and enlargen it if you can. : > That way a little miss isn't going to screw yourself. Practice the : > proper arch and learn how to lower the weight with your bis and lats : > to save your pecs for that initial push off at the bottom. : : Could you describe the lowering motion a little? You should lower the weight slowly and under control using the biceps and lats to control the downward motion. If you use a lot of pec movement you will appear to shake slightly and this involvement may weaken your initial lift on the bench. I just concentrate on lowering with my lats and just tightening my pecs and delts for that initial drive. : Thanks alot. I think I'll try to throw in shoulders on bench day. I havent : done shoulders in a few months. Now I lift just 3x a week. Personally, I don't do many shoulder exercises... a couple sets of BTN press and a couple sets of lateral raises and that's all. I find my rotator cuff exercises to be more important. As well... the other big key to a big bench is a big deadlift and squat. Don't fall into the trap of neglecting you arms and back... these are where your biggest gains will come from and that will help your bench immensely. Garry From: garry@mda.ca (Garry Holmen) Subject: Re: powerlifting Date: 29 May 1996 16:45:00 GMT Suka Zimmerman (afn45077@afn.org) wrote: : : Coul I just have my spotter put his hands 8" from my chest?.. cause I dont : think : theres 4x4's at my gym.> Sure... personally I use a rack and position the bars at the right height. 8^)... Just make sure to lower it under control, let it stop on the bars or board/relax a bit and then give it a solid ride again. It's murder on the delts and tris. : My friend who used to powerlift talked about concentrating on tightening : the" U "(tris delts and pecs) after tafint the weight off the racks. Do you : know what he's talkin about? He said it added 15 lbs. to his bench, and I : cant figure it out. Typically you want to pull your shoulder blades together and get a good arch in the bench press. (Practice the arch and the pulling of the shoulder blades together in your set up.) This will automatically tighten your delts, pecs and tris... and when you lower the weight you do want to keep tension in those muscles (ie keep them tight) but you want the main lowering work to be done by the lats and biceps. Take a look at the IPF weightlifting page as there is some training material there which might be helpful: http://www.tgx.com/cpu/cpu.htm : I'm not really into shoulders either. : Do your rotator cuff excercises add to your bench or just prevent injury? Prevent injury... my ex-powerlifting partner got sidelined from his last meet one week before the contest with a 2nd degree sprain of the rotator cuff. And he still hasn't recovered to 75% of normal and it's been 2 months. Injuries are the bane of powerlifting... train smart, practice prevention and avoid them at all costs. : Thats cool cause I kill my back and legs. I deadlift 350. Iwonder if thats : out of proportion with my bench. It seems that I'm way ahead of guys on : back excersises but they're way ahead of me on the bench. Keep up the good work... and look ahead to adding that next plate on the bar. Garry From: Frank Gayle Subject: Re: Bench Press Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:23:17 -0400 S. Shalkowski wrote: > > >Josh wrote: > > >I've been benching for quite a while now, but I'm having one major > > >problem: I don't seem to be working my chest. It always seems to burn > > >my arms (or sometimes shoulders) more than my chest. I've tried > > >widening my grip, doing flyes first, but nothing works. I work to > > >total and complete failure, but even then it feels like mostly arm > > >work the next day. Any advice on what I could do to remedy this would > > >be greatly appriciated! > I had trouble working my chest with the bench press until, after reading a > Hardgainer article by Brooks Kubik, I implemented these suggestions as well as > this one: when I prepare to do a set I push my shoulders back so that my > shoulder blades are as close as I can get them. Then I lie down and keep the > shoulders in that position throughout the set. If you are using what for you > are heavy weights, having a spotter help with a lift off can help you keep the > shoulders in place. Only by doing this do I feel fatigue in my pecs after > benching. > > Scott I second Scott's suggestion. About a year ago on misc.fit there was a description of the method as "shoulders like a soldier at attention (tho lying down) with the shoulders rolled back and down." This method allowed me to feel the bench work in my chest for the first time, rather than exclusively delts and arms. It also improved my bench, tho for heavy weights you do need a liftoff. From: rmann@escape.ca (Bob Mann) Subject: Re: bench press progress Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 03:08:06 GMT scblademan@aol.com (Scblademan) wrote: >i am making virtually no progress. >i am 47 yrs old >163 pounds, 5 11 >benching at the most 215 >any ideas??? We really need more details to offer much in the way of advice. Some things to ponder. Are you working out too much? At your (our) age we need more rest. Do you eat enough? If you want to get bigger you can't scrimp on the calories. Do you get enough sleep? Are your workouts too long? As you get older you can't stay in the gym as long and still be putting everything into your workout. Do you work your back? Your back is very important to your bench as a stabilizer and assistant. Do you work mainly the big compound execises? This is the only way to really gain strength. How long have you been lifting? Gains slow down after the first few months and it might seem that you have stopped. Some things to try. Try doing shorter more intense workouts for a while. Nothing but compound movements. Do each exercise only once per week. Try creatine monohydrate. Make every other bench workout a bumbell session. Do bench on Monday and weighted dips on Thursday. Do squats. Do deadlifts. These last two will add strength all over. Don't do too many sets for each body part. 2 or 3 should be enough to gain strength (not including warmup sets). Eat frequent meals. Bob Mann