Olympic Weightlifting Vs Powerlifting Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 From: "Eric M. BURKHARDT" Subject: Re: Raw Powerlifting Top ten reasons why weightlifters (Olympic lifters) can't take the sport of powerlifting seriously: 1. The overuse and misuse of belts. First off, I'm willing to bet that most weight trainers do not understand the function of a lifting belt....which is to increase intra-abdominal pressure (IAP). Increased IAP (along with increased intra-thorasic pressure ITP) aids the erector spinae in extending the trunk. Since sufficient IAP producing abdominal strength (primarily transverse abdominis) can be developed through beltless training, it follows that continued belt use will retard this development. As coach Bob Takano of the Van Nuys Weightlifting Tribe says, "Our lifters grow their own belt". Did you know that many of the world's best weightlifter compete without a belt. 2. The use of supportive clothing. Shouldn't this sport be a contest of the athlete's strength and not how well he or she learns to recover elastic energy from a lifting suit that is so tight that it often takes several other people to help put it on? 3. The use of heavy duty knee wraps. See # 2. Besides, weightlifters could never use thick heavy duty wraps because the "bunch up" of material behind the knee during full squats would cause injury. Remember that training without knee wraps will strengthen the bodies own connective tissue supportive structures. 4. The style of squat used. Now I know that the style of squatting used by powerlifters is purely to lift as much weight as possible, but the weightlifter's style of back squatting is much better for overall athletic development and limits the amount of weight that can be handled. So when a weightlifter can squat in excess of double body weight, it's pretty impressive. Many good weithtlifers can squat over triple bodyweight and front squat well over double bodyweight. How many powerlifters can do that??!! 5. The fact that it's called powerlifting. Measurable power (f x v) output that is generated during the competitive Olympic lifts is many times greater than the power that is generated during the "power" lifts. However it is true that powerlifters can generate some very high power values when lifting submaximal (~60 - 70%) weights at maximum speed. 6. The fact that there has to be special federations for "drug free" powerlifters. Enough said. 7. One third of the competition is performed lying down. I must admit however that I do suck at bench press. 8. Powerlifter don't train hard. Consider the Van Nuys Weightlifting Tribe who train six days per week. That's six days of snatch and or clean and jerk related movements, back and or front squats, snatch and or clean pulls, and overhead lifting movements. Deadlifting movements or good mornings are not usually done more than three times per week. The Van Nuys WL Tribe often takes workouts in which over 100 reps at 80+% are performed with weekly volumes in excess of 500 reps at 80% and above. Our coach feels that this is the only way to get strong drug free. How many powerlifters do more than 100 reps per week? 9 & 10. That's all I could think of. If there are any weightlifters who can think of two more, please respond. Please don't take the above the wrong way. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that powerlifters are some of the strongest individuals around. In fact, if all the athletes who went into powerlifting did weightlifting instead, the USA might measure up pretty nicely to some of the countries who 's top athletes come from a much larger pool. So if there are any powerlifters who have become disenchanted by the sport for some of the same reasons listed above, please give weightlifting some serious thought. Us weightlifters are always looking for someone to train with. P.S. Don't allow yourself to be brainwashed by those who promote the "HIT" philosophy of training. When the correct definition for intensity is used, no other type of training can compare to Olympic weightlifting. Any sport which requires the athlete to use the large muscles of the body to propel an object or his or her body weight in short duration, high intensity "bursts" will benefit tremendously from a variety of Olympic lifting exercise variations..., and yes, if taught and trained by a qualified coach, Olympic lifts are very safe. Eric Burkhardt Strength and Conditioning Coach UC Irvine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 From: Phil Subject: Olympic vs Powerlifting OK, I couldn't resist it, after all someone else drew first blood: Top ten reasons why powerlifters can't take the sport of Olympic lifting seriously: 1) Olympic lifters aren't honest about drug use. Olympic lifting is probably (certainly by the number of failed drug tests) the most drugged up sport that makes any pretense at disallowing drugs (Bodybuilding no longer makes any real pretense). And the few drug-free lifters are at an enormous disadvantage competing against lifters from countries that spent more effort on thwarting drug tests than the US did in putting man on the moon ! At least powerlifters are rather more honest about what they do. And we have drug-free organization for those like me who would rather not take 'em. 2) Olympic lifting is only popular in countries where the Olympics are seen as a powerful propaganda item, and powqerlifting has been discouraged as a "distraction". 3) Olympic lifters seem to burn out at an early age (don't the Russians turn off their stipend at 25 or something ?). Mind you, I think they start 'em at 12 ! 4) All the the olympic lifts (2 now, used to be 3) favour the same body type. There's not much difference between the snatch and the clean and jerk, but with the dead lift and bench press favouring completely different body types almost anyone (long limbed or short limbed) can aspire to be competitive in powerlifting. 5) Olympic lifters don't have any chest muscles ! (see 4 above) 6) In powerlifting, the actual competitive lifts are also excellent strength producers and lead to good all-round development. Thus many other strenght athletes can dabble in powerlifting. 7) Olympic lifters are always dropping the bar from great heights and generally being a danger in the gym. 8) Olympic lifters are always claiming they need to work on their techniques, when actually they need to get stronger ! 9) Olympic lifters want medals for each individual lift, as well as for the total ! 10) Olympic lifters can only count to 8 ! -Phil Andrews, powerlifter, ex hammer thrower ----------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 From: Garry Holmen Subject: Re: Raw Powerlifting Eric Burkhardt sez: >6. The fact that there has to be special federations for "drug free" >powerlifters. > >Enough said. Are you saying that drug use isn't rampant in Olympic lifting? Please... that's so funny it hurts to think about it... or is it the fact that you don't care? >8. Powerlifter don't train hard. > >Consider the Van Nuys Weightlifting Tribe who train six days per week. >That's six days of snatch and or clean and jerk related movements, back >and or front squats, snatch and or clean pulls, and overhead lifting >movements. Deadlifting movements or good mornings are not usually done >more than three times per week. Not many 'cuz we realize to get a strong deadlift one has to recuperate and get stronger for our next attempt. Of course since Olympic lifters don't care about the deadlift I guess this really wouldn't matter to them. I hate to tell you this but it isn't the amount of the time in the gym that tells if you've been training hard it's the numbers being put up in the meet. Maybe that explains the State's poor showing in Olympic lifts? They weren't putting in 500 reps in those Olympic meets? >So if there are any >powerlifters who have become disenchanted by the sport for some of the same >reasons listed above, please give weightlifting some serious thought. Us >weightlifters are always looking for someone to train with. I think it's because Olympic lifting is a dead sport in the US. I would never go to the US to train for Olympic lifting... the best coaches aren't there, the equipment isn't there and neither is the funding. Garry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 From: Mark McLeod Subject: Re: Raw Powerlifting ** High Priority ** Well-well. We certainly seem to be harboring a "hidden agenda" here. A many line attack on powerlifters ... then a hit on HIT. Even we "poor, down-trodden, ignorant, support equipment dependent, technique challenged, non-hard training wimps" can figure out what the bottomline to this post is. Before I give you my top 10 reasons why PL'ers don't Olympic lift, I feel compelled to comment on Eric's top 10. >1. The overuse and misuse of belts. As I read your justification, I don't see how we are "overusing/misusing" belts. Is retarding transverse abdominis development your rationale? What benefit does this give you? More strength? Speed? Increased lifts? More sexual potency? High paying job? Come-on. The bottom-line to both sports is to lift the maximum amount of weight. With very few exceptions, Olympic lifters who cross over and powerlift USE belts. Why? Don't they work out hard enough? >2. The use of supportive clothing. If all competitors are given the same "advantages", does not the competition become fair for all lifters? Supportive equipment should have it's limits ... but it certainly does not create champions (the same way steroids don't). >3. The use of heavy duty knee wraps. Weightlifters also don't squat 1000+ in competition. The fact that Olympic lifting technique does not allow you to use wraps in no way negates their applicability to powerlifting. And, the last time I checked, most PL'ers don't train with wraps all the time. 4. The style of squat used. Gee, brilliant observation that PL'ers squat style is meant to lift as much as possible. Your point about Olympic technique being better for overall athletic development is confusing. I am a powerlifter ... who wants to total as much as possible. You criticize the fact that I can squat as much as 90% (or more) of the lifts of ALL Olympic lifters (and I'm not a very good squatter at 450) ... and I'm doing something wrong? Again, we see the veiled attack on HIT, not powerlifting. As to how many PL'ers can squat over triple bodyweight, check out PL USA. The best (Coan, Bridges, Hatfield, Pacifico, Karwoski, Frantz) are four times bodyweight squatters. There are virtually NO Olympic lifters who can do that! >5. The fact that it's called powerlifting. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Too bad someone didn't think of a better, more descriptive name for this dying sport. >6. The fact that there has to be special federations for "drug free" powerlifters. Enough said ... indeed. At least there is a place that pure lifters can compete fairly. Impling that Olympic lifters lift in a pure world is total bullcrap. Let's not forget why the Eastern Bloc nations dominate this sport. Their athletes were test monkey's for every major drug concoction the little commie scientists could invent. >7. One third of the competition is performed lying down. Some of the best activities in life are done lying down (sometimes sitting, standing ....). Who defines what test of strength best measures strength? Should we criticize the caber toss as riduculous, because it uses a telephone pole size apparatus? 8. Powerlifter don't train hard. Bear with me for a moment, and let me count the number of world titles the esteemed Van Nuys Weightlifting Tribe has garnered over the years ..................................................................................................................... and of course, there are those many Olympic medals, won by ... ah ... huh-huh ... ah (hey Bevis, you ever heard of these guys?). I defy any swinging dick or jane in this group of Indians to load 80% of their best pull and do the same thing! They would be laid up for weeks. One thing we stupid neanderthal powerlifters have learned over the years (especially the clean ones) is that it's not the amount of work you do, it's the quality of the work. My best friend, who is a triple bodyweight deadlifter (USPF top 100 in America ... as "pure" as the driven snow) pulls every other week. Insane people deadlift three times per week. On the other hand, if I were to put 250 on the bar, I'm quite certain I could deadlift six days per week too. >if athletes who went into powerlifting did weightlifting...measure p Fact is, they don't. Why? See below. >Don't allow yourself to be brainwashed by those who promote the "HIT" > philosophy of training. Yes, the REAL reason. The "correct" definition for intensity? Well, what about the correct definition of stupidity? I hate to tell you this, but any sport which requires athletes to do the things you say ALSO benefit from powerlifting (and bodybuilding). How many of those people have the time to do their sport AND train six days per week (... and work, and have family time, and ....). The harsh reality is that Olympic style training is an impractical approach to cross training (for most people). Now, I present my top 10 reasons why PL'ers don't Olympic lift. 1). Never actually seen anyone Olympic lift. I've never seen anyone do a jerk in a gym ... although I have met some jerks in the gym. 2). It's the only weight sport with less recognition and reward than powerlifting! 3). Not too many gyms carry bumper plates and condone tossing the iron around over and over (and over and over). 4). Lifts, when not performed under the tutulige of an experienced coach, are dangerous. 5). You end up with "gymnasts chest" (or lack thereof). 6). OVERTRAINING. 7). They don't lift as much as a solid 132 lbs competitor. 8). Use punky little belts that are of little or no added value. 9). The three lifts are different in virtually all respects. Thus, a powerlifter has to be "smart" in order to maximize all three lifts. 10). The fact that it's called POWERLIFTING (and is, in fact, the world's strongest sport). Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 20:34:28 -0800 From: Mike Trupiano Subject: Re: OL vs PL To me there's no debate. weightlifting and powerlifting are completely different, yet legitimate sports. Many powerlifters have tried their hand at Olympic lifting and continue to use similar training techniques in addition to those specifically for powerlifting. However, because of the emphasis on benching powerlifters typically don't do well with olympic lifts. As for the Van Nuys Weightlifting Tribe, if you're training people in their prime with a lot of ability then this may work fine. A great many people can't do what they do and have modified their training accordingly. What about powerlifting in the olympics? I'd love it, but I would rather see improved coverage of weightlifting period. Why can't international level powerlifting get at least some coverage on ESPN2 or something? Why can't Olympic weightlifting get more coverage during reasonable viewing hours? The strongman competitions get better treatment than either PL or Oly. I don't have much to say about drug use other than many top athletes in ANY sport are suspect. Mike Trupiano htttp://www.seanet.com/~mtrupi/nrthwst.htm Subject: ''Power'' lifting??? From: "Chris Thibaudeau" Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:08:52 -0700 ***Brian and Terri Williams wrote *** While Olympic Lifting is a test of explosiveness, powerlifting is a measure of power *** I hate to correct peoples, but powerlifting IS NOT a measure of power. Power is defined as Velocity x Force. This is a concept also known as ''strength-speed'' or ''speed-strength''. In powerlifting the velocity is extremely slow so it is erroneous to say that it is a ''power'' event. In fact, studies by Garhammer (1980, 1981b, 1989, 1993) compared power output of powerlifting and olympic weightlifting. His results found that the power output of a competitive clean and jerk is approximately 15 000 watts (for a 125 kg man attempting a 260 kg clean and jerk). While a 100 kg powerlifter attempting a 375 kg deadlift produce ''only'' a power output of approximately 1274 Watts. Of course it can be argued that the clean and jerk is a much larger movements (more bar travelling). But even if we compare only the first pull in the clean (which is a much shorter movement than a deadlift) the first pull still lead to a power output 4 times greater than a deadlift. To quote Fleck and Kraemer (1997): '' It is interesting to note that the sport called ''power lifting'' really does not have a high-power component but rather a high-force component.'' =============================== Chris Thibaudeau The BIGBOYS page! http://www.colba.net/~john295/bigboys Subject: PL & cleans From: Jason F Keen Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:35:45 -0700 I don't necessarilly agree that powerlifting and olympic lifting are 'oil and water' to one another. I think the suggestion that an olympic lift be placed with some combination of powerlifts would make for a great meet. The reason that it seems obvious to me is that although the power vs force numbers may be different when it comes to the 2 types of lifting, it all boils down to pulling power and hip thrust. I don' know, but maybe the other people out there who work with olympic lifters (or are themselves) (Mel, Chad, Eric Burkhardt) can tell us, don't you have those lifters back and front squat quite often? Paul Anderson came on the scene and dominated weightlifting with little experience. So, it obviously wasn't that he had been training on the olympic lifts, it was because he could squat inhuman poundages. For me, it goes the other way as well. I am pretty much just a power lifter now, but I still do the olympic lifts. I swear that I get a big boost on my bench after having done a cycle of jerks, squat-stance push press, whatever gets the bar over my head explosively. Anyway, I would be all for a meet where I did the Bench, Dead, and C&J. I believe that although the goals of the two sports are definitely the extremes of high power output and high force output, a little crossover training that incorporates both types of lifts will yield better gains in both areas. --- Jason F Keen, NSCA-Certified Personal Trainer jkeen@iastate.edu Subject: Re: 'POWER' LIFTING From: Mcsiff@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 08:12:21 -0700 In a message dated 9/16/98, L B Baker wrote: >I have never read Dr. Garhammers research. My disagreement lies with the >statement that powerlifting should not be called powerlifting and that >o;ympic lifters exert or use more watts than powerlifters. Also that >powerlifters do not exert power and speed. ***Clearly, since L Baker has not read Dr Garhammer's research, there has been serious misunderstanding of that work. Dr G, nor any other biomechanist, has ever stated that no power and speed are associated with any dynamic movements in Powerlifting or any other sport, since we would be corrected most vigorously by ALL of our colleagues. According to the laws of physics, power and speed accompany all movement and it is impossible for them not to exist where there is movement. What Dr G's work did was to examine the power output over the full range of various movements in weightlifting, powerlifting and other sports. He measured average power and peak power over entire movements and noticed that greatest peak power occurred at a specific stage of the jerk and in the shotput, as well - and that is significantly more than during any stage of any of the powerlifts. >Nothing could be further from the truth. During the last two olympics I trained with two lifters who competed in the olympics. Also in my gym are a few World and National powerlifting champions, myself being one of them. Both olympic and >powerlifters train with power and explosion. ***Dr G and I have both competed for many years in both powerlifting and weightlifting, and have met and trained with many excellent lifters of both types, so we know that you are perfectly correct. Dr G's work simply showed that during the maximal attempts used in competition, not the submaximal efforts in training, peak power (rate of doing work) is greater during 1RM Olympic lifts than peak power during any 1RM powerlifts. Any comments which suggest that powerlifting should be called Strengthlifting (for instance) certainly have not been done to denigrate the super-tough game of powerlifting, but to acknowledge that it is a game for the super-strong. The very nature of powerlifting competition, as you know, is to hoist maximal loads in three lifts which do not permit the use of much ballistic recoil or elastic energy, so that movement is compelled to be very slow and at a low rate of work (i.e. low peak power). If one is able to lift any load at great speed in any of the powerlifts, then that load is hardly near one's 1RM. By the way, the great powerlifter, Dr Fred Hatfield (who also did and still does weightlifting), has written about and even given scientific graphs on the lower peak power outputs of the powerlifts compared with weightlifters (e.g. see some of the extensive material from his ISSA training courses). He, Dr G and all of us who have ever measured power and force in any of the lifts have noted the same and all the argument in the world cannot dismiss this as the uneducated opinion of scientists. The apparatus (force plates) used to measure force, velocity, etc are simply complicated bathroom scales and, if one observes a certain value in one lift and a smaller value in another lift, then no amount of future research will ever find anything to reverse the order of those values - maybe some corrections to the degree of accuracy, but not their relative magnitudes. >It is my belief, after almost a half century in the weightlifting sports, >that to excel one must train for strength to be strong and speed to execute >the competitive lifts.That makes it sound rather simple but time nor space allows for all the training techniques available. ***No argument with that - there are literally hundreds of texts and experienced lifters who have found this to be correct. >One thing I have learned about research is that you can prove anything >you want to prove through research and that most of the research can be >proven wrong through more research. ***Sometimes true, but not necessarily so. By labelling science as largely irrelevant or wrong, you are dismissing so much of the really good research that has been produced which has advanced sports performance it has over the years. Please recognise that a good few of the scientists whose work you may be denigrating are very committed to improving the performances in weightlifting, powerlifting and all other sports - and one of those is most definitely John Garhammer, who is one of America's foremost biomechanical authorities on many aspects of the lifting sports. If you do meet him one day, you will be delighted and honoured that a man of his calibre and experience has chosen to work in our well-loved sports. Yes, of course, science has to be wrong in some things a lot of the time, for there would be no further need for science if we had the answers to everything. And science will help us even more if practitioners and coaches worked more closely with scientists to guide their research where it may be wrong. We are on your side! Dr Mel C Siff Littleton, Colorado, USA mcsiff@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:03:10 -0400 From: "Jon Agiato" Subject: Strength_List: Re: Strength-Digest: V1 #2289 > Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 21:59:18 -0500 > From: "Chris and Angie Zell" > Subject: RE: Strength_List: NBC OL page > > I don't understand why Hamman would say powerlifting is just raw strength. > Louie Simmons wrote a huge article on technique in "How to do the Squat" in > this month's PLUSA. He also said "Compared to a powerlifter, an Olympic > lifter can't squat with the Sunday paper". Now I know we have some O > lifters here (Jim Ferry whom I know can squat considerably more than the > Sunday paper), but what does the general consensus seem to be? What about > you O lifters? Do you agree with the comparison to the WWF? > > Chris Zell > Montgomery, Al I wouldn't say Powerlifting is all about raw strength, I would also say it also depends heavily on genetics. A lot of Powerlifting is the utilization of leverage and not nessesarily muscular strength. Now Olympic Weightlifting is mostly about technique and genetics but I would definetly state that the Olympic Squat is a much better test of ones muscular strength than the Powerlifting squat which depends on forward lean, low bar placement, wide foot placement and just to parallel depth. I have done both and continue to do a mixture of both sports but have always felt the Powerlifting Squat to be sort of like the guy who does half squats with a lot of weight, then uses a suit, belt, wraps, leverage, etc. to get just below parallel. I have felt the same thing about Sumo style Deadlifting in comparison to conventional. Powerlifting is all about shortening the distance the bar has to travel, while utilizing as much leverage and momentum to minimuize the work the body must do. Not saying it's bad, but the comment about Olympic squatters not squatting the sunday paper is waaay off. I do full ass to the ground with a two to three second pause Olympic squats with btwn 500-600 lbs. Sure, I don't compare to Ed Coans breakfast, but it's definetly more than my Sunday paper(maybe if the comics section was bigger...). I would also venture to say that any Olympic style squatter if he devoted his time to mastering the Powerlifting technique could easily add a couple of hundred pounds to his or her squat almost overnight. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying this sport is better than that one. I am simply saying that the measure of one's strength is in the eyes of the beholder, it all depends on what we are measuring (musular strength or leverage). I don't agree with the comparison of Powerlifting with the WWF, although (here come the flames), I have heard of a lot of similar antics at the benchers meets (funny how you never see that stuff at full meets...hmm..). ;-) Yours in strength, Jon Agiato 1st class NFPT USA Weightlifting club coach http://home.earthlink.net/~syntrasys/