Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 23:56:53 -0500 (EST) From: THEENFORCER@delphi.com To: Weights-Plus@list.tether.com Subject: "love handles" Message-ID: <01J3N0MYECPU90P4CD@delphi.com> > Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 18:58:33 -0500 > From: steve mower > Subject: "love handles" > > Has anyone had any success with the CDK(?) type diets, where you > put your body into ketosis? I guess what I'm talking here is a strict > protein and fat diet. How long would it take to see results from > something like this? say to go from 14% down to 8%. Would you do it all > at once? Are there any variations? like eat carb free a couple days a > week, and the process would just take longer? A cyclical ketogenic diet (CKD) has worked very well for me, bringing my bodyfat to as low as 8%. You will not gain much, if any, muscle mass while losing the fat, but you will *retain* muscle mass better than you will with a low-fat diet. A brief explanation of the CKD (enough to get you started) is on my nutrition page under "High-Fat/Low-Carb Diet" at: http://people.delphi.com/theenforcer/nutritn.htm I have stayed on a CKD for as long as three months. At first, there is a stunning loss of about five or six pounds during the ketogenic phase (weekdays), but one quickly learns that about three or four pounds will come back during the carb-up phase (weekends), so it is reasonable to expect a loss of about one to three pounds per week. Considering that about 90% of that weight will be in fat, those are pretty good results. Like any fat-reduction diet, the "law of diminishing returns" applies as your body fat abates. I doubt that going high-fat/low-carb only a few days per week will work. Most people take 24 to 48 hours to get into ketosis, and that ketosis tends to build an inertia; the most powerful fat burning tends to occur towards the end of the ketogenic phase. ___ ___ ___ ___ _ __ __ ___ __ ] ]_[ ]_ ]_ ]\ [ ]_ / \ ]_> / ]_ ]_> John M. Williams ] ] [ ]__ ]__ ] \[ ] \_/ ]\ \__ ]__ ]\ theenforcer@delphi.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://people.delphi.com/theenforcer <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:31:14 -0800 From: Tim Wilbur To: Weights-Plus@list.tether.com Subject: Re: "love handles" Message-ID: <36379B31.1638@together.net> steve mower wrote: > Has anyone had any success with the CDK(?) type diets, where you > put your body into ketosis? I guess what I'm talking here is a strict > protein and fat diet. How long would it take to see results from > something like this? say to go from 14% down to 8%. Would you do it all > at once? Are there any variations? like eat carb free a couple days a > week, and the process would just take longer? i did the body opus diet and had great results. there's tons of info on the web dealing with low carb/no carb diets. i know there are a few links from my web page. i also have a little blurb about my experience with it and have a spreadsheet you can download that gives a sample diet (anal, or what?) the url for that is http://homepages.together.net/~twilbur/bodyopus.htm (i think). i was on the diet for 4 or so weeks and lost a lot of fat. i would guess my bodyfat went from 16% down to around 12%, but i'm not sure of the exact numbers. what the body opus is especially good at is maintaining muscle while dieting to lose fat. as with any diet, don't be looking for any big gains in the gym while on it. i found after 4 or 5 weeks my systemn just couldn't take going without any carbs any longer. the problem for me was because so many of your carlories are from fat, i found i wasn't eatting enough solid food. so i had to quit. i tried it a few months later and within two days i was experiencing the same thing as before. not pleasant. the diet is definitely not for everyone, but if you want to try something extreme for a little while, i'd definitely say go for it. i wouldn't recommend you use it for more than 6 weeks. -- Tim Wilbur (twilbur@together.net) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:46:01 -0600 (CST) From: lylemcd@onr.com (Lyle McDonald) Subject: Strength_List: Weight/fat loss >Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:47:04 -0600 >From: Daniel Cook >Subject: Re: Strength_List: Weight Loss > >I've yet to have a positive experience from weight loss. Whenever I try to >get rid of some excess fat by dieting down or doing cardio I always seem to >lose strength, especially with my bench. To this end I've given up on >losing fat and have just focused on lifting (I'm 190lbs with about 15% bf). >If anyone has any good tips on dropping fat without the strength loss, I'd >appreciate it. I guess my first question would be how quickly did you try to lose the weight? In general, I would say that the best way to kill your lifting performance is to try and diet too quickly by either restricting calories too much or doing too much cardio. the latter especailly tends to overtrain the legs, even at low intensities. for some people, a weekly fat loss of 0.5 lbs may be the most they can achieve without negatively affecting performance. Yet most 'authorities' will suggest a loss of 1-2 lbs/week as being safe and reasonable. For someone who is very overfat, this might be the case. As you get leaner, it becomes harder and harder to lose fat without losing muscle/hurting performance. So I guess my suggestions would be: 1. Start with a very small caloric deficit, 5-10% below maintenance. At 190 lbs, you're estimated maintenance is about 2850 calories so you're looking at a deficit of 140-285 cal/day. Drop a roll from dinner or a couple pieces of bread from your diet, and you've achieved that goal. After 2 weeks, see what has happened. Ideally, you should have lost a little fat with no drop in performance. If performance has dropped, try an even smaller deficit. If performance hasn't dropped, you can try a slightly higher deficit, perhaps another 100-200 cal/day subtraction. Do the same thing, see what's happened after 2 weeks or so. You'll eventually find a point where further caloric reductions make performance drop like a stone and you'll have found your own personal calorie level for optimal fat loss. 2. Keep protein intake high: 1 gram/lb. This is to help prevent muscle loss, which is a big part of why performance takes a nose dive. 3. Cardio isn't prerequisite for fat loss but you may find that small amounts of cardio coupled with a small caloric deficit work better than just reducing calories by cutting food intake. It's very individual, some folks can do tons of cardio and not lose muscles, others lose muscle with any cardio. If you do choose to do cardio, keep the intensity super low, walking would be about it. I know of some folks who have experimented with interval training (sprints) but it can be difficult to work into a power routine to avoid overworking the legs. If you're doing a Louie routine, I'm not sure if there'd be any way to work in interval training. Perhaps you could use intervals as a special exercise or something. 4. Don't diet for excessively long periods of time. It seems that it's easier to overtrain when dieting extends over super long periods of time and fat loss tends to slow after a while anyhow. So after you've applied suggestion 1 and foudn your optimal deficit, only continue dieting until you first notice a drop in performance. At that point, move back into a maintenance calorie diet (or a little above maintenance) for a few weeks until performance comes back up, then start with a slight reduction in calories. Of course, there's always the other option which is to just not worry about it. At 15% bodyfat, you're within the range recommended as healthy by most authorities and a reduction in bodyfat may not be necessary for optimal performance. I guess it depends on where the next weight class is for you. Of course, 190 lbs at 10% bodyfat would mean a good bit more muscle which might mean more strength at your current bodyweight category. Hope this helps, Lyle McDonald, CSCS Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:53:52 EST From: WestsideBB@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: Weight Loss Jason: I agree with most of the information that Lyle presented. I just want to touch on a few other points. Weight loss/fat loss is the result of a simple equation. If you burn more calories than you ingest, you'll lose weight. The goal should always be to lose fat. This is where it gets tricky. There is absolutely no way of accurately determining precisely how many calories your body needs unless we were to test your Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR) aka Resting Metabolic Rate (RMR). With that said, everyone's metabolisms are different. Consequently, two 200 pound men may utilize and burn calories at very different rates. BMR is a function of genetics, bodyfat %, nutritional habits, sleep patterns, exercise protocol, etc. Many powerlifters discourage cardiovascular training. I recommend it in moderation. Remember, when we exercise aerobically there is an increase in the number and size of mitochondria within our cells. All energy necessary for cell function is produced in the mitochondria. As the size and number increase, so does the potential to produce energy for muscular work. With that said, I recommend varying your intensity of cardiovascular training. Most so-called "experts" espouse the notion of low intensity long duration aerobic exercise for fat loss. After all, the process of fat burning (lipolysis) doesn't actually begin until approximately 20 mins into a bout of aerobic exercise. On the other hand, back to our equation...burn more than ingested and you'll lose weight. Therefore I also recommend some high intensity cardio via sprints, running hills, plyometrics, and interval training. Trust me, this will not only keep your body guessing but you will get stronger and leaner at the same time. Like Lyle said though, keep your protein high (at least 1g/pound of bodyweight), minimize your simple carbs and sugars, and limit your fat intake to less than 10% of your total calories. Many times when people lose weight they feel weaker. This is usually the result of short term or fast weight reduction i.e. "making weight." Start early if you want to lose weight/fat and maintain strength. Fat cannot be lost overnight. A quick word on leverages should be noted. As people lose weight, their lifts often go down because of a subsequent loss in strength but also because of changes in leverage. Weight loss causes people to lose lean body mass and fat which changes your leverages via smaller proportions. The squat and bench press will usually either go up or down with sufficient gains or losses in weight. Ironically, the deadlift can sometimes be the opposite. Weight gain often times makes it more difficult to bend over and grab the bar in the deadlift because of increased girth. All the more reason to gain quality size in the right places. Stay strong, Matt Gary, CSCS Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:17:44 -0500 From: "Thomas Incledon" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Losing fat > Hello Im just asking for some advice on losing fat but maintaining > strength/muscle. As for now Im about to start Mike Mentzers ideas on losing > weight...that is consome 500 to 1000 calories less than maintenance > level...by the way I hoover around 250lbs with about 20% body fat (guess) > low to medium matabolism so how much would it require to maintain? And as > you know Im a strongman not really a powerlifter I think this would be a good > time to practice cardio events and 20minutes of working out every 5 days > sounds good. What do you all think I should do???? Why do cardio training? It sends distinctly different neural messages to your muscles resulting in dramatically different effects at the area between the muscle and the nerve. Working backwards, we could safely assume that the brain and central nervous system are also "rewired." I have found my best results from performing a number of anaerobic events in succession. The carry over to cardio was very, very good and I didn't lose muscle or strength in the process. Do not restrict Calories by more than 500 per day. Ideally you would calculate your calories need and then subtract only 10-15% of your calories. Higher calorie restrictions are associated with significant declines in a variety of anabolic hormones, and while cause and effect data has not been clearly established, it does lend a possible explanation as to why some people lose lots of muscle when dieting. Lower calorie restrictions will not impact your testosterone and other levels as much, thereby by maximizing the potential to hold onto muscle while dieting. Sample calculation for you: 250 pounds x 11 kcals per pound = 2750 kcal per day at rest 2750 times 1.5 for activity = 4025 kcals per day 4025 times 1.1 for thermic effect of food = 4428 kcals per day For weight loss 10-15% of kcals = 443 - 664 kcals, so 500 is fine. 4428-500 = 3928 kcals per day 250 grams protein per day x 4 kcals/g = 1000 kcals per day 25% kcals from fat x 3928 = 982 fat kcals divide by 9 = 110 g fat per day 3928 kcals -1982 kcals = 1946 kcals divide by 4 = 487 g carbohydrates per day So you wind up with 250 g protein per day, 110 g fat per day, 487 g carbohydrates per day Simply divide these numbers by the number of meals you eat per day (ie 5 or 6). This gives you a balanced and consistent intake of calories throughout the day. Eat your last meal close to bed time. Make sure most of your fat comes from MUFA>PUFA>SFA. Set up a plan of evaluation every 4 weeks. This is how you will monitor your progress. Stick with a given phase for about 4 weeks before making changes since it can take up to 3 weeks for the body to adapt in some areas. The above diet works well if you do not have problems with glucose or insulin levels. If you have problems in this area you would want to decrease carbs. I would try first to increase fat and leave protein alone. After 4 weeks you can evaluate things. If that doesn't work then go back to the original fat and increase protein. I would not make changes in any of the macronutrients by more than 5-10% at a time. The above is for non-workout days. The days you work out you will want to eat a high glycemic meal after training with a normal meal's worth of protein and double, let's say you eat six meals per day, then this would be 42 g protein. Take in 126 grams or carbohydrates and no fat or fiber. That leaves the rest of the day with 42 g protein, 73 g carbs, and 22 g fat for the remaining 5 meals. later, Tom Thomas Incledon, MS, RD, LD, LN, CSCS, NSCA-CPT Adjunct Professor of Kinesiology and Nutrition Math, Science, and Technology Nova Southeastern University and Research Scientist Department of Physiology and Biophysics Department of Exercise and Sport Science University of Miami Mailing address: 619 NW 90th Terrace Plantation, FL 33324 954-577-0689 hpsinc@mediaone.net From: Ken Waller [mailto:bigbench28@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 7:01 AM Subject: RE:diets Doug- All right, I'm biting! What meal program are you following, in addition to MRP's/Protein drinks? To lose weight (fat) and gain strength is pretty tough to do. Also, could you please outline your workouts and CV work? What I want to know, if your willing to spill the beans, is what ratio of protein/carbs/fat are you using, are you supplementing with MRP's for 2 of these 6 meals, for example, and how many days a week do you train with weights, as well as when and how you do your CV work (after workouts, non-workout days, etc./running, biking, etc). As you can see, I'm not asking for too much! The reason being that I'd like to drop a few pounds myself, but not at the expense of losing too much strength. I'd love to hear the details about how you've been able to succeed at losing weight while not only maintaing strength, but actually getting stronger! That's fantastic! Ken Ken That's a tall request. Here's the basics. 4 main barbell workouts a week like Louie recommends 4 exercises on the leg days (including reverse hypers and abs) The first 6 weeks I focused my assistance on hamstrings After reading the post about developing posterior chain dominance (which I didn't think was possible) I focused on quad strength The day afar each leg day I do 3 sets of reverse hypers with 60% of the weight from the previous day Upper body days were all about shoulder rehab No cardio was done (I can't stand it) Each meal was about 400 calories with 33 grams of protein 30% fat and the rest in carbs 2-3 meals a day were Grow(MRP) with peanut butter Post workout meals were 33 grams protein 100 grams carbs 5 grams of creatine During training I would sip on 30 grams of carbs I tried to keep calories about 500 below daily maintenance for 1 pound a week loss Also I would have 1 cheat day a week where I could eat anything I really do think eating the last meal right before bed helped me keep the lean mass. I been able to drop weight before but have always lost muscle in the process. The late night meal was the main difference. Doug Schurman, CSCS Body Results Seattle, WA doug@bodyresults.com Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:15:18 -0600 From: Watson Davis Subject: Re: Re: Goals 2001 Squatboat@aol.com wrote: > > whats the keto diet? Ketogenic. Ketosis is when your body stops using glucose as its primary fuel source and starts using ketones and free fatty acids instead. In a ketogenic diet, you have to eat less than 100grams of carbs per day; most diets require you to eat less than 30 grams for at least a couple of weeks to induce ketosis. You still concentrate on getting 500-1000 calories below maintenance per day (to lose 1-2 pounds a week), but for most people ketosis has the effect of blunting hunger so that it's easier to restrict calories. There is some research that suggests that a ketogenic diet might spare lean mass while dieting for the average person BUT for lifters, the lack of glucose can lead to the body breaking down muscle to feed the muscles you're working. So lifters on a ketogenic diet need to replenish the muscle's glycogen stores either by ingesting carbs before, during, or immediately after their workouts (called a Targetted ketogenic diet or TKD) or by leaving ketosis every week or so and replenishing carbs for a couple of days (called a Cycled ketogenic diet or CKD.) HTH. Watson (1/2 ton) Davis Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:59:09 -0500 From: "Luis P" Subject: RE: Re: Goals 2001 - Ketogenic Dieting That's the diet I'm on, and I've lost about 75 pounds overall since August. It's surprisingly easy to follow once you pass the first 2 or 3 weeks. I imagine I've lost even more fat than that, because I've certainly gained muscle with workouts. One small correction, ketones are the result of the breakdown of fat for energy. Ketosis is the state where the body is using primarily its fat reserves. Also, very important, drink a lot of water on this diet because the ketone waste products are very hard on the kidneys and can cause permanent damage over time. If anyone wants to do any reading on this, I recommend Dr. Atkins "New Diet Revolution" book. He's a very good writer, who knows how to keep from boring his readers. Lifters I've talked to say to go at least 50-60g of carbs a day (there's like 45g in one plain bagel), and as said in Watson's email, take it right around your workout time to minimize effect on muscles. Luis Paulet Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 16:38:13 -0600 From: Watson Davis Subject: Re: Re: Goals 2001 - Ketogenic Dieting Luis P wrote: > > That's the diet I'm on, and I've lost about 75 pounds overall > since August. It's surprisingly easy to follow once you pass > the first 2 or 3 weeks. I imagine I've lost even more fat than > that, because I've certainly gained muscle with workouts. Excellent. > > One small correction, ketones are the result of the breakdown > of fat for energy. Ketosis is the state where the body is using > primarily its fat reserves. This depends upon the point at which you look at the adaptations to ketosis. When you first enter ketosis (for about a month), the brain continues to use glucose and most of your other organs switch to ketones. Once you adapt to ketosis, your brain uses mostly ketones for energy and your other organs switch to free fatty acids. Even after you adapt to ketosis, your muscles still want glucose which is why you have to replenish glycogen stores and why fructose is a bad carb to use during carb ups. (Fructose is used preferentially by the liver and can kick you out of ketosis without replenishing your muscle's glycogen stores.) > Also, very important, drink a > lot of water on this diet because the ketone waste products > are very hard on the kidneys and can cause permanent damage > over time. > > If anyone wants to do any reading on this, I recommend > Dr. Atkins "New Diet Revolution" book. He's a very good > writer, who knows how to keep from boring his readers. Unfortunately, Atkins screws up some of the science behind ketosis. The Eade's Protein Power is a little better and of course, the best book to read (although boring as hell) is The Ketogenic Diet by Lyle McDonald. > > Lifters I've talked to say to go at least 50-60g of carbs > a day (there's like 45g in one plain bagel), and as said > in Watson's email, take it right around your workout time > to minimize effect on muscles. That's for a TKD. You can actually go higher on the high GI carbs right after your workouts IF you're TKDing. During a CKD, the point is to deplete your muscle glycogen and then supercompensate during a 1-2 day carbup (where you binge) so it's important to NOT eat carbs immediately after your workout on a CKD. Watson (1/2 ton) Davis