Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 08:03:22 -0800 From: Ray Pacello Subject: Strength_List: Re: SHOULDERS (BIG MELONS) For my .02 cents, I offer the following suggestion or movement: We all know about bench presses out of the racks with the pins stabilizing the low point of the movement right? Well, how about applying the same logic for shoulder pressing? I have recently tried this for the past two shoulder work outs and I increased not only that specific movement, but also my bench lockouts as well. I stand straight up in the rack and set the pins at about chin, or just below chin level. Load the bar-a buck 64 or a buck 85 and just stand there and blast it up, with a 2-4 second pause in between. I do 6 sets of 6 - 3 to the front and 3 rears. I believe the rears are okay because I am not superextending the joint with the pins to support the weight at the bottom. Has anyone ever tried that? What do you think? :) or :( Then I do 3 sets of plate raises with 100lb plate for 6. I do a sumo like stance when I do these--is that right. I love 'em If I have anything left--I do shoulders and calves all by their lonesome--I do heavy shrugs. Peace. Ray Date: 11 Jul 99 11:10:37 MDT From: Ken Coia Subject: Strength_List: Thanks for the advice on barbell rows After I posted about my relatively weak barbell rows, I tried Chris Taylor's advice (let the plates touch the floor in between reps)and worked up to 190 and 200 lbs. on my last two sets, for 5 and 4 reps respectively. Chris, if your're reading this, thanks again. Also thanks to Jeff Oien who reminded me to concentrate on squeezing the shoulder blades together (although this gets tougher as the weights get heavier). The last time I did barbell rows (about one week ago) I used around 160 for 8 reps. Even accounting for the lower reps, I still think a 40-pound jump just from a technique change is great. Ken Coia Date: Thu, 9 Sep 1999 10:42:56 -0600 From: lylemcd@onr.com (Lyle McDonald) Subject: Strength_List: Pulldown risks >Is one really justified in lumping all of these different ways of behind the >head pulldowns together when analysing their mechanics, benefits and possible >risks? Are the horror mongers actually stating that all forms of pulldowns >behind the head are dangerous? The various times I've seen negative remarks aimed at BTN pulldowns, the comment wasn't that it was dangerous as such. The point of concern is that there is the potential for overstretching the anterior joint capsule with the movement (this sentiment is echoed in a number of books I've looked at dealing with shoulder injuries/rehab in reference to sports which put a lot of stretch through the shoudler, such as swimming). This could lead to shoulder instability and injury further down the road. By the same token, so could extreme stretch flying movement, exaggerated bench presses (i.e. with a cambered bar) and probably any number of other movements. Considering that there is little (functionally or muscularly) to be gained for a BTN pulldown compared to a pulldown to the front (muscular action is basically identical and there is no sport that I'm aware of that requires one to pullup with the arms that far back behind te shoulders), I personally see little reason to use an exercise that *might* destabilize te shoulder joint (which has enough problems as it is) by over-stretching the ant. joint capsule. Lyle Date: Sat, 11 Sep 1999 23:58:41 EDT From: Mcsiff@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: LAT PULLDOWNS Several comments on the alleged dangers of behind the neck (BTN) pulldowns presume that this necessarily causes excessive lateral rotation of the humerus. While this certainly may be the case with some ways of BTN pulling, it is not always true of all methods of BTN pulling, such as those used when: 1. You sit very close to the pullup machine so that you can pull the load directly downwards, thereby not producing any externally rotating torque about the shoulder joint 2. You face the pullup machine and lean forwards so that you can pull the load down at an angle which minimises the tendency to external rotation of the shoulder. While I have no particular affection for the BTN exercise and see no really compelling reason to use it regularly in place of the wide variety of pulldowns in front of the neck (except possibly to offer one form of training adaptation to external shoulder rotation which occurs in many throwing activities), one still should not attribute specific injuries to any single given exercise like this, when the risks may be more closely related to the manner in which that exercise is executed or prescribed. Possibly pulldowns, like power cleans, standing presses, presses behind the neck, good mornings, snatches and full squats indeed are easier to perform incorrectly for relative novices, but this does not mean that they cannot be executed very safely and effectively, if care is taken to learn them correctly to suit your specific structure. If one examines the clinical records of sports physical therapists and orthopaedic surgeons, it is far more likely that you will find far more shoulder injuries that are caused by common popular sporting activities like baseball and other throwing and hitting sports than by BTN pulldowns among bodybuilders. Many colleagues of mine and I have trained or trained with numerous bodybuilders, athletes and pretty average clients who have used BTN pulldowns for many years without injury, so the 'workplace' does not suggest that there is a major epidemic of shoulder injuries resulting from this exercise. I am still curious to see peer-reviewed references which provide clinical proof that a significant number of shoulder injuries correlate with the use of judiciously performed BTN pulldowns. Those who contend that the BTN pulldown produces excessive force in the anterior structures of the shoulder need to sketch a free body mechanical diagram to note that the shoulder joint is not passively forced into significant external rotation if the load is pulled vertically downwards (thus there is no force component to produce a moment that results in any form of rotation of the shoulder). In other words, the argument concerning excessive lateral rotation of the humerus is concerned more with faulty technique than a faulty exercise. Dr Mel C Siff Denver, USA mcsiff@aol.com