From: "Stephen M. Brown" Subject: Re: Stiff leg deadlifts, how much is too much? Date: 8 Jan 1997 21:46:32 GMT I've been doing the SLD's for hams for a while also...I got stuck at 295 for 6 reps (2 sets) a while back, but no pain or problems...just could not do another rep for the life of me. Finally tried bending my knees just a bit at the bottom of the movement (i never locked 'em -- i hear that's a nono) -- this got me to 300 for 6 reps (again, 2 sets), hope to move up again this week... BTW - body weight = 180~190 (ya know ketogenic diets!) Aaah, I'm probably cheating with this new movement, so maybe I'll concentrate on form & stick at 300 this week. steve > I am doing SLD's, upon which they tell me I am doing too much weight. Its only > 150% bodyweight at the moment, for 12 reps in pretty good form, so I was just > wondering. > > >The key > >is to make sure that your back can remain flat or slightly arched, not > >rounded. As long as this form is good, then push the weight up. > > Sounds good, will do. I imagine that form becomes more critical with the > higher weights. > > Thanks. > > Guillermo > > From: Bill Roberts Subject: Re: Stiff leg deadlifts, how much is too much? Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 16:20:10 -0500 On 8 Jan 1997, stephen c jr snowden wrote: > Guillermo Gonzalez (gonzalez@bridge.net) wrote: > : I started doing SLD's for hamstrings a while back, and I found myself liking > : them. How heavy should one go with these things, say as a % of body weight? > : If I am experiencing no injury pain or discomfort, is it alright to just keep on > : going up in weight? > I have gone up to 365 at a body weight of 242 with few problems only a > tight lower back. (am fine a couple of hours later) I now keep it at > around 225 as my upper weight (using more reps.) > What are the other opinions out there? > Regards, Steve There is no such thing as "too much weight" so long as form is correct and reps are enough to give yet more gains! Stronger is better. Always! I suggest having someone watch you from the side one time and see if you are rounding your back over at all. If so, don't. Find out how low you can go without any rounding, and go no lower. Most men have lowered the bar low enough (max stretch of the hamstrings with back still flat or slightly arched back) when the bar is maybe half way down the shins, but this varies a lot between individuals. I know a female bodybuilding/fitness babe (VERY babe-a-licious) who lowers the bar all the way to her feet, with 185 lbs, with a perfectly flat back! But guys don't need even for the plates to come near the floor, in most cases. However, I personally never got much gains off this exercise, and if I quit it and later come back to it, my gains from other exercises carry over to the SLDLs. I'll lift more, without having done the exercise in months! So now I don't bother with them myself. Other people, though, swear that SLDLs do a lot of good for them. Oh, and keep the knees bent slightly. -- Bill From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: Straps, Belts...When to use Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 18:43:43 -0800 Organization: Pacific Power Outlaws Desmond Chan wrote: > > Jason Burnell (deepsquatter@earthlink.net) wrote: > : Desmond Chan wrote: > > : > Let say you can deadlift 300 lbs for 10 reps, but unfortunately your > : > forearms are not strong enough to hold on to the bar that long. What > : > should you do? Use straps so that you can do heavy deadlifts while you > : > also strengthen your forearms with other exercises, or you reduce the > : > weight to one that you don't need the help of straps and increase weight > : > only as much as your forearms can handle? Which is a better approach? > : > > > : How about 3 sets of 5 with only 30 seconds between sets or my personal > : favorite - do 15 singles with 45 seconds between....the first 5 are > : easy. Just remember to concentrate on ripping that bar from the floor. > > Ummm...the thing is, your forearms actually are not even strong enough to > hold on to the bar for one rep. I myself would use straps to do heavy > deadlifts and do other forearm exercises on the side to strengthen the > grip, because I don't see why I should wait until my forearms get > stronger. > > Regards, > > D Chan Yes but this is not what you said originally; " Let say you can deadlift 300 lbs for 10 reps, but unfortunately your forearms are not strong enough to hold on to the bar that long. " Thats what you said. Look, use straps if you want to. I'm not going to play stupid semantic games over BS like this. Just don't ever compete in powerlifting. Few things will strengthen your grip like hanging on to the bar yourself. I'm not against the use of straps, Im just against their overuse. But hey, train the way that makes you happy. -- Jason Burnell - http://www.earthlink.net/~deepsquatter/ From: Eric Morrison Subject: Re: Leg Curls & Extensions Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 23:37:36 GMT Keystone deadlifts are a very good exercise for hamstrings. They are executed in this way: hold the dumbells in front of your thighs and bend forward. Do not allow your back to round and only go forward until you feel a stretch in the hanstrings. Your knees should be slightly bent. I have found that this is a great exercise for the making the hamstring look more complete. (ie. big squatters ass and then no hams till mid leg!) This exercise concentrates on the sememembranosis and semetendinosis. THe leg curl concentrates more on the biceps femoris. Hope that I was of some help. P.S. Start out light and do between 10 -12 reps for 3-4 sets going nice and slow. If you feel any low back discomfort you are not doing it right! You could also try supersetting for a great pump! "FC" Morrison From: "Mike Trupiano" Subject: Re: Tetanus From Doing Deadlifts? Date: 14 Jan 1997 03:09:03 GMT Okay, short & sweet. No, I believe it needs to be a puncture wound for tetanus to be an issue. However, bring a chlorine and water solution (I forget to proportions) to clean the bar in consideration of others. Bring an antiseptic and bandaids to take care of yourself. Haruko Nakagawa wrote in article <01bc01b7$289aae40$3661ba81@default>... > Okay, here's my problem. As many others here(but no one else in my MFin > gym) do, I like to deadlift heavy on back day. The other day, I was doing > 185 for a three sets of 10-20. Well, as usual, I opened several scratches > and created a few new ones. Besides being a pain, a thought has occured to > me-actually brought up by a guy in the gym. He told me I should try to > avoid being cut, as I could contract tetanus. My initial reaction was that > this is not possible, but I am not sure. Well, what do you guys think? > > Aki Nakagawa > http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/4148 > From: kalalau@gte.net Subject: Re: Dead lifts Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:14:24 GMT On Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:29:58 -0600, Maxx wrote: >Christopher Dixon wrote: >> Can anyone give me a few tips on how to do dead lifts properly? > >What ever you do, KEEP YOUR BACK STRAIGHT!!! I don't mean "upright," I >mean "NOT CURVED." Find a personal trainer or experienced lifter to >show you and correct your form. This is very good advice. When I started doing deadlifts I did them improperly with a rounded back and paid the price. My back was quite sore for several weeks. Once I used the correct form, I had no more back problems and my hamstrings began to grow rapidly. I find deadlifts to be much more effective than leg curls to add size to your hammies. I have found that correct form is more critical in this exercise than most. Here are the steps that I take to ensure correct form: 1. Feet about 6 inches to a foot apart and facing straight ahead 2. Grip the bar comfortably with overhand grip 1-2 feet apart 3. As you bend down stick your butt out in an exaggerated way keeping knees slightly bent. 4. As you are sticking your butt out, lean forward keeping your back perfectly straight and keep your head up keeping the bar as close to your legs as possible. 5. Lean forward keeping your back straight until you feel a stretch in your hamstrings. If you don't feel the stretch then you are doing it incorrectly, 6. Return to starting position but don't lock your knees or arch your back in exaggerated fashion. Aloha, Rich Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:31:04 -0500 From: Tom Goodwin Subject: Re: STRENGTH Digest - 23 Jan 1997 to 24 Jan 1997 ------------------------------------------- >Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:53:16 -0500 >From: "Frederick C. Hatfield, Ph.D., FISSA" >Subject: Soviets, suits and smiles... >------------------------------------------- snipped a cool story on how DrSquat kicked the crap out of some Soviet dude in the squat 8-) >On to another (related) matter, that being sans suit and shirt lifting. > Clearly, all the garb powerlifters wear aids in performance, and NONE of it >was EVER designed and allowed into the sport to make lifting safer! I wore >what was allowed to be worn at the time because I didnít want to give away an >advantage. In fact, I innovated a lot of real gems in those days >myself...all in the interest of lifting more weight! But I must say that the >suits and shirts on the market back then didnít offer me that much of an >advantage at 242 or 255, although they seemed to help at lighter body >weights. I suspect that this was due to less subcutaneous fat at the lighter >weights (and therefore less of a ìcushioningî effect for the suit or shirt >against my skin). > >No matter. What appears to matter to most in this discussion is whether the >practice of using supportive garb be allowed to continue. It wasnít allowed >in the early years of powerlifting to use anything but a belt, knee wraps and >a non-supportive lifting singlet. That was because we began powerlifting as >an offshoot of Olympic lifting, and Clay Patterson (our first IPF President) >borrowed liberally from the Olympic lifting rules book in writing one for >powrlifting. And then wraps were banned altogether for awhile, but came >back. Then things began getting crazy. But why did they get crazy? There >is only ONE reason! That is, the rules of powerlifting were written in such >a poor literary manner that they were left open to many conflicting >interpretations. Stronger fabric for the wraps, shirts and suits, etceteras. > > >Now, here's the two most important reasons I'm firmly opposed to the >supportive garb: 1) It makes the lifter look like a blithering FOOL to the >average viewing public ("What is this? A strength of muscle contest or a >strength of clothes contest?"), and 2) It is against the IOC Charter to wear >such supportive garb. We will never become an Olympic sport as long as the >practice is allowed to continue. This, I was told personally by Juan Antonio >Samaranch in a meeting with him on the topic of powerlifting acceptance. hmmm..interesting...I have never heard #2 before. I believe I saw a survey on powerlifting.com that asked people about powerlifting in the Olympics (Cyclops) and one of the questions was about supportive gear. It failed to mention how it was a moot point considering that it could not be allowed anyways. I sure got a kick out of some of the responses. Just by quickly skimming, I seem to remember about 60% in favor of suits/shirts and 40% opposed. The only name that I remember off hand was a response from Dan Wagman who was of course strongly opposed to wearing supportive gear. >>------------------------------ >>Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:31:21 +0000 >>From: Andy Clegg >>Subject: Re: training without a belt >>------------------------------------------- >>I suppose I have my views because I'm a powerlifter and train for >>lifting with a belt in competition and we probably have a different >>definition of a heavy deadlift to Mr joe bloggs trainer. But I still >>think it absurd to not use a belt on the *heavy* sets. > No..the only thing I think is "absurd" is for you to suggest that a belt MUST be worn on heavy sets. Maybe you should have stated "But I still think it is absurd for ME to not use a belt on the *heavy* sets." Your statement encompasses more than just you. Perhaps you have justified your use of a belt as safety , while actually it is just for added strength and as a "crutch". Peace, Tom Goodwin Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:15:48 -0500 From: Tom McCullough Subject: Re: Soviets, suits and smiles... ------------------------------------------- In a message dated 1/24/97 11:06:41 PM, Dr. Squat wrote: <> Man I love this Russian story.....anyway....you are right about this equipment, I remember standing in the Longview Barbell Club in 1981, when Inzer was wrapping himself with tape. This was the early stages of the bench press shirt. His only thoughts were how to increase his own bench. He tried everything until he ultimately decided that athe material of the super suit could be made into a shirt. Even then his only thoughts were only to find a way to increase his own totals to beat out Chip McCain. Why do I wear a bench press shirt? Really? Only to increase my bench. The fact that I feel it helps my shoulders stay healthy is beside the point. Tom McCullough MEd., MSS Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:17:19 -0500 From: Tom McCullough Subject: Re: training without a belt ------------------------------------------- In a message dated 1/24/97 12:05:55 AM, you wrote: <> A guy that did his master's degree with me did his thesis on the weight belt. He actually did a series of x-rays of lifters' spines doing the squat and deadlift with and without a lifting belt on. In the squats he showed that the belt kept the spine in proper alignment throught the entire range of movement. Without a belt, the spine did not stay in proper alignment. The deadlift, on the other hand, did not seem to make any difference with or without a belt. The belt did not seem to effect spine alignment. Tom McCullough MEd., MSS Strength and Conditioning Sport Nutrition Consultant Houston, TX Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:12:11 -0500 From: Tom McCullough Subject: Re: training without a belt ------------------------------------------- In a message dated 1/26/97 11:00:32 PM, you wrote: << In the end, the lifts that truly demonstrate strength and power i.e. picking things up, and putting things overhead, are too pure to be adulterated by a device which lets one do less work, thus making the deadlift, a mockery of sorts. How can one aptly demonstrate muscular strength in a lift when a belt assists the main muscle tested? >> How is it that you figure a belt can assist one to lift the weight in the deadlift. I think that I mentioned already that the belt does not even help keep the spine in alignment. So what is it exactly that is being adultered? The deadlift uses the muscles hips, knee, and back. How is the belt possibly going to assist one of these muscles? The hips must extend. Does the belt assist this movement? The knee must extend too. Does the belt assist this movement? The lumbar must preform extension. How in the world does the belt help in this movement? If you were talking about knee wraps or a squat suit, I might have to agree they assist in moving bigger weights, but a weight belt. I can lift the same amount in the deadlift, with or without a belt on. Now as for the real safety issues surrounding the belt. I would suggest that you read the literature. Weightlifting belts have been shown to effective improve lifting safety by helping the lifter to increase intra-abdominal pressure (Harman, 1992; Lander, 1990;). This "artificial device" as you call it, does not assist in moving the weight, it actually aids in supporting the spinal column during the lift and reduces the compressive forces on the disks (Bartelink, 1957; Morris, 1961). This helps a lifter sufficiently load the legs without subjecting the lift or the squat. It is only helping the lifter safely perform the lift. Now is it advised to use the belt every time you lift? Of course not. You need to slowly build intra-abdominal strength just like any other muscle. The belt should be limited to the heaviest sets. And then, only in exercises that would directly place excessive loads on the spinal column. You surely don't need a belt on to do the bench press. << I feel that if your spine can not stay straight with a weight you are using in the deadlift, then you are using too much weight and need to strengthen it. >> How about the squat? I doubt the abs are as strong as the legs. My legs are capable of lifting lots of weight, I sure don't expect my abs to be able to keep up with my legs. Would you suggest that I never push my legs to do more work because the abs are not as strong as my legs? Now why don't Olympic lifters see the weight lifting belt as a necessity? Perhaps it is that they are not using such extreme weight as in the GREAT sport of powerlifting. I did notice in the Summer Olympics, that most of the lifters used a belt though. However, I can easily squat 550 to 600 lbs without a belt, but when I get to the 700 to 800 lbs range, I am certainly not going to risk back injury anymore than I have to. My legs are still doing the work, not the belt. In all of this discussion of equipment I can understand argument of the knee wraps, the squat suits, the bench press shirts, the underware, but belts? If lifting with a belt is making a mockery out of weightlifting, I guess we have lots of powerlifters who have made a mockery out of lots of world records. I wonder if Dr. Squat considers his 1014 lb. squat was a joke because he wore a belt. It surely has my respect regardless of what he wore. Tom McCullough MEd., MSS From: Christopher Otte Subject: Re: Bloody shinned deadlifts! Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 17:18:15 -0500 Phil Monks wrote: > > Today at the gym I was doing my deadlifts and got my shins all bloody, as > I sometimes do - I believe this is fairly normal. The gym supervisors > didn't think so. I thought they were going to cry at one point. Anyway > - keeping it short... has anyone considered that maybe diseases (AIDS?) > could be spread by the blood from a bar in this fashion? I reckon they were > just worried that I'd scare the aerobics people with blood running down > my legs :) > > Phil M In Powerlifting meets they (usually) have a spray bottle with diluted bleach to clean the bar and platform when this sort of thing happens. I think HIV is exactly what they're afraid of. I was competing in the '95 ADFPA NH States and they didn't have any means to clean blood off the bar or platform that day. The head ref came around while we were warming up on dead's and told us he could not allow anyone who's shins were bleeding to continue in the meet. Be careful. The owner of my gym beat up his shins for years deadlifting. He ended up with a serious infection on his left shin and spent 11 days in a hospital, at one point they were considering a skin graft. It's been over 5 years since then and he still has a large, dark discolored blotch on his shin. He's since cashed-in the macho image of bloody legs for a shin pad and tall socks. :^) Chris Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 23:51:06 -0600 From: contico@ix.netcom.com Subject: Deadlift Here's a little deadlift technique I learned from Steve Scialpi: Instead of using 45's, use 35lb plates. The bar will be closer to the floor and provide a greater range of motion. Do your pulls just as you always would, if you're a conventional or sumo deadlifter. Of course you'll have to decrease the weight from what you ordinarily handle. Do these for several weeks and then try it with the 45's, your previous weights will feel significantly lighter! Enjoy! Scott Taylor http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From: danimal@siu.edu (Daniel B. Andrews) Subject: Re: BENT LEG VS STIFF LEG DEADLIFT???? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 02:44:41 GMT On 27 Feb 1997 19:41:16 GMT, gspangle@noclant.navy.mil (Greg Spangler) wrote: > Had a discussion in the gym last night on the merits of stiff leg vs >bent leg deadlifts. I have my own opinions, which I'll keep to myself, >but could some of you guys who have been at it for a while tell me your >thoughts on what specific muscle groups get targeted during each of these >exercises? > TIA > >Greg > Greg, During the stiff leg deadlift the back extensors and glutes are the prime movers while the hamstring and quadriceps stabilize your base with abdominals being the antagonist muscle during the movement. During the bent leg deadlift hamstrings, glutes, and the back extensors are the muscle working throughtout the movement, which is usually why you lift more weight during bent leg deadlifts, but near the end of the movement your legs become straight and the movement at end is almost all back extensors. The important thing to remember is that each type of deadlift works each muscle invovlved to a certain degree. Also, the deadlift is a great total body exercise. Daniel B. Andrews From: st5o1@Jane.UH.EDU (henry ha) Subject: Re: Bloody shinned deadlifts! Date: 28 Feb 1997 05:42:35 GMT In article , jstream@girch1.med.uth.tmc.edu (Rifle River) writes: >In article <33136527.41C6@stra40.hw.stratus.com>, Christopher Otte > wrote: >> >> Phil Monks wrote: >> > >> > Today at the gym I was doing my deadlifts and got my shins all bloody, as > >I do my deads in sweat pants to avoid this I don't like ripping up my pants. =) I wrap a small towel around the bar's middle. I think an Ace Bandage would work also. Somebody posted a long time ago that they used those bars that have the squat cushions on them to deadlift to avoid bloody shins also. I like the idea of wrapping something around the bar, just in case there is some leftover body fluids(blood or whatever) from a previous lifter. -Henry From: tye@leper.tamu.edu (Tye W. Botting) Subject: Re: Bloody shinned deadlifts! Date: 28 Feb 1997 12:51 CST In article <3316C0A5.5176BFA6@zedat.fu-berlin.de>, Stefan Roehrig writes... %henry ha wrote: %How about using shin-protectors? Are they legal in any powerlifting federations? Seriously. It sounds like a good idea, would aid in keeping peoples' forms better (for those of us with thin skin and who like to keep our blood), and would not be just another piece of equipment to get those big lifts - just to make things a bit more safe and pleasant. (As if DL'ing could be pleasant... ;-) Actually, it's my favorite lift) Tye Botting Northern Shaolin / Northern Praying Mantis tye@iname.com Remy Presas' Modern Arnis http://acs.tamu.edu/~tye Yang Style Taijiquan From: deadlift@pipeline.com (Tom Goodwin) Subject: Re: Bloody shinned deadlifts! Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 13:51:07 -0500 In article <3319B41F.45B1@avalon.net>, Tim Banse wrote: >Let me get this straight: um..you can try...... > >If you could immediately deadlift from ten to twenty percent more weight, Misconception. First, I have never seen or read about someone who could use 20% more with the trap bar. If that was the case, than that person better work on their form and/or lower back strength. Second, not everyone can use more with the trap bar. I can use approximately 10% MORE with the conventional deadlift than with a trap bar. Third, does using more weight necessarily a good thing?? I could use much more weight in the 45 degree leg press than squats, so using your logic, I should throw squats out the door and just do leg presses (bwwhahahahahaha). >avoid damage to your shins, It is part of the iron game. If you can't live with it than go to Bally's or something. Same thing goes with callouses on the hand. >lower back muscles and spine, Wait a sec. Strength training IMPROVES the muscles and bones of the body. If done correctly, the conventional deadlift should strengthen the lower back and spine, not damage it. If you avoid, conventional deadlifts, your lower back will most likely ALWAYS be weak. Period!! >And train more intensely with greater results, Are you equating more weight with more intensity? If so, please reread my leg press example above. >then this would be a bad thing? YES, it would be. Peace, Tom From: "Daron Burrows" Subject: Re: Bloody shinned deadlifts! Date: 1 Mar 1997 18:50:39 GMT > > Are they legal in any powerlifting federations? > > Seriously. It sounds like a good idea, would aid in keeping peoples' > forms better (for those of us with thin skin and who like to keep > our blood), and would not be just another piece of equipment to get > those big lifts - just to make things a bit more safe and pleasant. > (As if DL'ing could be pleasant... ;-) Actually, it's my favorite > lift) I use soccer shin pads in training - it makes it easier to keep good form, in case the pain makes you keep the bar away from the shins. Also saves simply taking scabs off in competition. The IPF technical committee have suggested people wear long socks in comp for hygienic reasons. I can see this is a good idea for sumo lifters, who take more skin off due to their shins being on the knurling. Daron Burrows, Trinity College, Oxford. trin0125@sable.ox.ac.uk From: "Jason W. Burnell" Subject: Re: Deadlift Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:28:21 -0800 contico@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > Here's a little deadlift technique I learned from > Steve Scialpi: > > Instead of using 45's, use 35lb plates. The bar will > be closer to the floor and provide a greater range of motion. > > Do your pulls just as you always would, if you're a > conventional or sumo deadlifter. Of course you'll have to > decrease the weight from what you ordinarily handle. > > Do these for several weeks and then try it with > the 45's, your previous weights will feel significantly > lighter! > Enjoy! > > Scott Taylor > Several months ago in the ADFPA newsletter they had an article by Betinna Altizer. She noted a similar routine, also from Scialpi, but she didn't touch the floor between reps. It works the hell out of your adductors, hams and lower back. VERY WORTHWILE. -- Jason Burnell - http://www.earthlink.net/~deepsquatter/ From: Blondie Subject: Re: Deadlift Grip. Why? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:45:10 -0500 Deadlifts are best performed with an overhand/underhand grip because this minimizes the use of arms in the movement. Deadlifts are not typically used for arm strengthening, and this particular grip helps to eliminate any tendency to rely on arms for the lift (it also helps to grip the bar longer, minimizing rotation of the bar either way). Michael From: "Jason W. Burnell" Subject: Re: Deadlift Grip. Why? Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 11:33:47 -0800 Trog LaDyte wrote: > > Jason W. Burnell wrote: > > > > Trog LaDyte wrote: > > > > > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . But how does the alternate > > > grip have an advantage over a double-underhand grip? Why not eliminate > > > the weak link altogether? ^^^^^^^^^ > > > > > > > Actually this just reverses the position of the weakness. The bar would > > still roll out of your hands with a double underhand grip. The bar wants > > to go down but to do so it must unroll the hand and fingers. If the > > hands face opposite directions it is harder for the bar to unroll the > > hands. > > OK, makes sense. > > So will each hand/wrist/forearm be experiencing about the same amount of > strain? That is, in the interest of training those muscles to accept > continuously greater loads, should you alternate your grip in the alternate > grip on, say, alternate workouts, or does it matter? > Left-overhand/right-underhand one workout; left-underhand/right-overhand the > next. > > TROG For even development, it probably would be best to switch grips weeekly or something. I should, I don't. I think(emphasis on think) that constant use of the same grip could eventually lead to postural problems. I actually use an overhand grip during my warmups and switch to the other grip when I get over 405. I have seen one guy do overgrip DLs in a meet, he was an OLer and it felt more natural for him. I f one trained this way over time grip strength would improve but I still think the alternate grip would afford a more stable grip on meet day. -- Jason Burnell - http://www.earthlink.net/~deepsquatter/ From: drsquat@aol.com (Dr Squat) Subject: Re: STIFF LEG VS BENT LEG DEADLIFT? Date: 28 Feb 1997 22:10:47 GMT STIFF LEGGED DEADLIFTS A lot of bodybuilders use stiff legged deadlifts to exercise their lower back. Because your lower back is more efficiently and effectively developed with back extensions, there is no need to do any other exercise for your lower back, and ESPECIALLY not stiff legged deadlifts! Stiff legged deadlifts are particularly effective for developing your hamstrings (the back of your upper legs). The traditional way of performing this exercise is to lower the weighted bar all the way down to your bootstraps while standing on a platform or bench with stiff legs (or knees slightly bent). In this way, it's believed, you'll get maximum effect on your hams. This may be true to a degree, but you're also going to unnecessarily expose your lumbar spine to injury. Those intervertebral discs down there come loose all too easily! I believe that I've developed a better way. With barbell in hand, poke both your butt and belly outward. In this position, you look kinda like one of the "Keystone Cops" you see in the 1920s movies. This variation of stiff legged deadlifts has thus become known as "Keystone Deadlifts." This seemingly strange position will prestretch your hamstrings because of the forward tilt of your pelvis the position entails. Then, while maintaining this position, slowly lower the barbell to around your knees, keeping the bar close to your legs during the descent and ascent. You must NOT go more than an inch or two below your knees. By the time you reach your (slightly unlocked) knees, your hip joints have fully flexed, and further lowering of the bar is accomplished ONLY through hyperflexion of your spine -- a NO-NO! You will feel a decided "burn" in your hams when keystones are done correctly. You should feel virtually no discomfort or stress in your lower back. If you do, experiment with the movement until you feel no discomfort at all. The nice thing about doing stiff legged deadlifts this way is that you can use a far heavier weight, thereby getting better adaptive stress applied to the target muscles. All without any low back trauma at all! One more important caution: NEVER do this exercise explosively! You'll risk pulling a hamstring or blowing out a lumbar disc. Bodybuilders are well-advised to steer clear of heavy deadlifting movements, as they are potentially dangerous to the lower spine. Frederick C. Hatfield, Ph.D., FISSA ("Dr. Squat") http://www.ipf.com/fredhome.htm (Articles And Q&A Included!) From: tmccull230@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: Bloody shinned deadlifts! Date: 3 Mar 1997 08:53:54 GMT In article <01bc2671$0bc8cc00$241b4cc0@max1.public.ox.ac.uk>, "Daron wrote: >I use soccer shin pads in training - it makes it easier to keep good form, >in case the pain makes you keep the bar away from the shins. Also saves >simply taking scabs off in competition. >The IPF technical committee have suggested people wear long socks in comp >for hygienic reasons. I can see this is a good idea for sumo lifters, who >take more skin off due to their shins being on the knurling. I have seen and experienced through the years that this bloody shin stuff is caused by poor form during the initial pull of the deadlift. Many times this is further complicated by doing touch and go reps. When you start the intitial pull and have the bar away from the shin, this forces you have to get on your toes to start the pull. As you shift the weight back to your heels, the bar must then be pulled into the shins as you lift the weight upward. This inward pulling movement causes the shins to be scraped. The solution: make sure that you start the lift with the shins close to the bar as possible and drive the legs from the heels and the outside 2/3's of the feet. This will help keep the bar in as close to the center of the body during he pull as possible and will help to avoid bouncing the bar off your shin in during the initial pull. The other problem is the grip. Because powerlifters use an alternated grip, there is a slight difference in the rotational pressure that is put on the bar. The pronated (palm down) grip tends to cause the bar to rotate inward sightly while the supinated (palm up) grip causes the bar to rotate outward. This causes a slight natural inward twist of the bar to the pronated hand side. That may be why you tend to scrape the shin of the pronated side shin more readily, inspite of good form. The solution: move the pronated hand inward towards the center of the bar just slightly. This will shift the center line of the bar just slightly so that the supinated hand side is just slightly heavier. Thus, the bar may not tend to twist outward so easily so easily. Tom McCullough M.Ed., M.S.S. Excel Sport Fitness, Inc. From: bluenote@netcom.com (Bryan Hinkle) Subject: Re: Bloody shinned deadlifts! Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 10:37:33 GMT junaid ahmed memon (junaidm@wam.umd.edu) wrote: : > : i've gotton bloody shins while wearing workout pants. : JM I seem to always manage to rip the same dime size divot out of the left one just below the knee ,the right leg ends up with nice stutter scrape marks all the way up. The next week the scabs survive until around the 3rd set of quads. Pants or no pants I never come away with unscathed shins. The only advantage to all this is that once the blood soaks through the sweats the geeks think your crazy and stay away so you don't waste valuable chalk in uselessly chalk-bombing them. On a more serious note (fancy that) most of the power-lifting federations have rules dealing with blood on the bar and how to dispose of the waste. Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 16:21:07 -0600 From: contico@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Bloody shinned deadlifts! In article <5fpi4h$63a@tree.Stanford.EDU>, weeden@leland.Stanford.EDU (Kimberly Ann Weeden) wrote: > > [ > I haven't managed to take a chunk of skin off my shins, but I do > constantly have bruises on my knees from deadlifts. > I get the worst bruises on the left side, which is the "palm > facing in" side (I use an alternate grip). I've tried switching > the grip, but that just results in a matching set of bruises > on the right knee. I've also tried a conventional grip, but just > don't have the grip strength to go as heavy. > > Is this a sign of bad form, somehow, or "just" a grip strength problem? > I'm still learning the movemenent and would appreciate any tips. > > BTW, I'm not lifting huge amounts of weight (yet). 135 to 145 for > 7-9 reps, 2 sets (plus warmup). > > Kim Kim, that's not bad form at all, in fact proper form in the deadlift requires the athlete to drag the bar along the shins. The shins should be in contact with the bar, and the bar should be dragged up without getting away from the body. As far as the bruising, we've tried it all, heavy pants, knee wraps, tall socks, bruising seems to be inevitable Best regards! Scott Taylor From: deadlift@pipeline.com (Tom Goodwin) Subject: Re: Bloody shinned deadlifts! Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 00:39:28 -0500 In article <857772871.19853@dejanews.com>, contico@ix.netcom.com wrote: >In article <5fpi4h$63a@tree.Stanford.EDU>, > weeden@leland.Stanford.EDU (Kimberly Ann Weeden) wrote: >> >> [ >> I haven't managed to take a chunk of skin off my shins, but I do >> constantly have bruises on my knees from deadlifts. >> I get the worst bruises on the left side, which is the "palm >> facing in" side (I use an alternate grip). I've tried switching >> the grip, but that just results in a matching set of bruises >> on the right knee. I've also tried a conventional grip, but just >> don't have the grip strength to go as heavy. >> >> Is this a sign of bad form, somehow, or "just" a grip strength problem? >> I'm still learning the movemenent and would appreciate any tips. >> >> BTW, I'm not lifting huge amounts of weight (yet). 135 to 145 for >> 7-9 reps, 2 sets (plus warmup). >> >> Kim > >Kim, that's not bad form at all, in fact proper form in the >deadlift requires the athlete to drag the bar along the shins. >The shins should be in contact with the bar, and the bar should >be dragged up without getting away from the body. > Actually, I have found that it is NOT proper form to drag the barbell up the shins during the deadlift. I believe that Tom M. has commented on this before. Of course many do the exact opposite and keep the barbell a large distance away from the shins. Peace, Tom From: deadlift@pipeline.com (Tom Goodwin) Subject: Re: Bloody shinned deadlifts! Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:29:51 -0500 In article <857856123.23877@dejanews.com>, contico@ix.netcom.com wrote: >In article , > deadlift@pipeline.com (Tom Goodwin) wrote: >> >> >> Kim >> > >> >Kim, that's not bad form at all, in fact proper form in the >> >deadlift requires the athlete to drag the bar along the shins. >> >The shins should be in contact with the bar, and the bar should >> >be dragged up without getting away from the body. >> > >> Actually, I have found that it is NOT proper form to drag the barbell up >> the shins during the deadlift. I believe that Tom M. has commented on >> this before. Of course many do the exact opposite and keep the barbell a >> large distance away from the shins. >> >> Peace, >> Tom >> >> What is the source for that info? Who is Tom M.? >Thanks. > Tom McCullough who posts on the strength-list and weights-list quite a bit. The source for my info is an article titled "Analysis of the Conventional Deadlift" by Kevin Farley, CSCS in the Dec. '96 (Vol.17,#6) isssue of the NSCA Strength and Conditioning Journal. Farley states "Mistakes are common in the execution of the deadlift, most notably dragging the bar up the shins, starting with the bar too far away from the shins, or hitching the bar up the thigh." Peace, Tom From: Phil Andrews Subject: Re: Rack dead vs. full deads? Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 12:42:47 -0500 shibayam@uiuc.edu (Dr. Bigtime) wrote: >I just watched Dorian's Blood and Guts. I give it 2 thumbs up. Anyways, >in the video, when Dorian does deads, he only brings the weight down to >just below his knees. I've been doing full deads for almost a year now. >Keeping in mind that my goal is to become a size FREAK, which deads would >you recommend? I'm better proportioned for the deadlift than the other lifts (trying to get an 800), but I don't think floor deadlifts are the best way to go. The first few inches are almost all leg and hip, and you can work those muscles better with squats. I do most of my work in the rack from below the knees. The only problem with rack squats is that with the large amount of weight used, it can be very draining and difficult to recover. Presumably Dorian has chemical help and this may not be a problem for him. -Phil Andrews (another Brummie) Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 From: "Charles I. Staley" Subject: 20-rep deadlifts With respect to the person who injured his back during the 18th rep on a set of deadlifts: Although there is a faction that promotes 20 rep deadlifts and/or squats, I think this practice should be carefully evaluated. Of course, one can acquire an injury doing almost anything, (and for almost any number of reps), nevertheless: 1) With 20 repetitions, you would place the involved musculature under tension for quite a while, depending on the tempo used. With a 5 second tempo, we'd be looking at 100 seconds. My colleague Charles Poliquin suggests that the ideal time under tension for hypertrophy is between 40 and 70 seconds; for maximal strength it is preferrably less than 20 seconds. A brief consideration of energy pathways shows that such a prolonged set has a significant aerobic component. Using these parameters, 20 rep deadlifts would be appropriate for muscular endurance, or (possibly) hypertrophy for lifters who are mostly Type I fiber. For Type II stimulation however, much higher tensions are required. 2) Movements requiring large contribution of stabilizing and neutralizing muscles (such as squatting, deadlifting, cleans, snatches, etc.) may be best employed using short durations--as fatigue sets in, it becomes increasingly difficult to maintain optimal spinal position, knee tracking, head position, etc. Additionally, fatigue may cause breathing technique to deteriorate, which compromises spinal stabilization as well. I think a lot of lifters have mis-identified their objectives -- fatigue is the by-product of training, not the goal! I was consulting to a football player once who wanted to improve his bench press. During a phase where we were performing 10 sets of 3 reps, this athlete constantly complained that he never felt exhausted, or nauseated, never had a pump, etc. However, we raised his bench press by 40 pounds in 16 weeks! So the moral is, "What is the objective?" If you are determined to use high repetition sets, you may be better off using machines, or at least exercises which don't place the spine in such jeaopardy. Identify your training objective, then find the most safe and effective ways to achieve those objectives. Charles I. Staley, B.Sc., MSS International Sports Sciences Association Phone: (800) 892-ISSA; E-mail: staley@west.net www.west.net/~staley/welcome.html ------------------------------ From: Curt Pedersen Subject: Acceleration Training Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 In response To: > Also, what is a good way to practice exploding out of the "hole" in my > squats and deads? I seem to get stuck there. Train for acceleration(like Louie Simmons and other promote), buy using multiple low rep sets at 55-65% of your 1RM. Training can be divided into power and strength workouts. On the power days, multiple sets (10-12) of low reps 2-3 are performed. The weight used is 55-65% of your 1RM. The other workouts for your squat/deadlift and bench utilize strength training with heavy weights 80-95% of your 1RM using between 2-8 reps. This is a rough explanation of this type of training. Check out Louie Simmons articles in PL USA for more information or email me at pedersen@chesco.com if you would like further explanation of this type of training. From: contico@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Sumo Deads Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 10:43:14 -0800 Thierry Mann wrote: > > B Taylor wrote: > > > > Are sumo deadlifts going to basiclly hit the all the same muscles as with > > regular deads? > > > > S > > It's been my experience that I get hit harder in the hams and glutes, > while conventional style hits me in the back (lats)more. I have felt a > bigger pump in my traps using the sumo method though, so the long answer > is basically, but not specifically. Also the hips and adductors will be called in play more using sumo style. Scott Taylor Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 08:26:46 -0500 From: "Jeffery J.O. Cilione" Reply-To: weights-2@nbaf.com yesterday i did my first few sets of sumo style deadlifts, and boy are my adductors killin' me today (in that good way). my questions are: 1) besides hitting the adductors (quite well i may add) does the sumo style hit the overall body the same as regular deadlifts? (i ask because i'd like to replace regular dl with sumo); 2) if i continue doing sumo style, and noting how my adductors have been worked, is it advisable for me to switch my deadlifts to my leg day (i do squats [along with leg curls and standing calf raises] on leg days)? i currently do deadlifts on mon with back and biceps. thurs is my leg day. any advice is appreciated. thank. Jeffery Cilione/inkedbear@wn.net/Provincetown, Mass. "All this buttoning and unbuttoning" -anonymous (18th century suicide note)- ------------------ From: "Rich F" Subject: Re: Deadlift Question Date: 15 Apr 1997 15:56:43 GMT It sounds like you are leaning forward and trying to do the lift with just your back and hamstrings, similar to a "stiff-legged" dead lift...I think you'll be able to lift more weight if you think about starting the lift by pushing off the floor like in a squat. When I get ready for a deadlift, I start from the military "stand at attention", then imagine I'm about to do a broad jump, spreading my feet to the proper distance, and finally *squat* down (don't just reach down) to pick up the bar. This keeps my head up, back straight and flexed and ready to lift, and also forces me to start the lift with my legs and hips. Your chest won't be "above" your shoulders, but it should be kept up and out, as in the stand-at-attention pose. rich f From TMccull230@aol.com Wed Apr 16 09:10:27 1997 Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 06:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: (Weights-2) sumo dl **NBAF WEIGHTS-2** In a message dated 4/15/97 12:19:26 PM, inkedbear@wn.net (Jeffery J.O. Cilione) wrote: 1) besides hitting the adductors (quite well i may add) does the sumo style hit the overall body the same as regular deadlifts? (i ask because i'd like to replace regular dl with sumo); Jeffry here is something that might interest you. I think it will answer your first question: Here are some interesting studies done on the deadlift. Cholewicki et al. (1991) reported in a recent study comparing the sumo and conventional styles that there were no significant differences in compressive disc forces at the L4 or L5 vertebrae. However the conventional deadlift showed significantly more movement and load shear forces in the L4/L5 that the sumo. So as we all pretty much are already aware, the sumo deadlift takes much of the strain and movement from the low back. To further back this statement, Horn (1988) found through an EMG study that the erectors were twice as active in the conventional stance as the sumo. There are many anecdotal reports as well that claim the sumo deadlift is much more technical and requires more skill. Many also say this technique is more biomechanically sound and more efficient because the bar does not have to travel as far. How true are these anecdotal reports? To investigate some of these claims McGuinan and Wilson (1996) recently did some extensive biomechanical analysis of the sumo and conventional style deadlift. The following is a summary of what they found: The liftoff - The sumo has a trunk angle that is significantly closer to vertical that conventional lifters. Sumo lifters were also found to have much larger hip and knee angles at the start of the lift. This style shifts the bulk of the load on the hips and knees. While the conventional lifter with a more stooped-over trunk position at liftoff utilizes more low back muscles to get the weight moving off the floor. The distance the bar must travel: As reported in other studies, this study also found that the average total distance the bar must travel to complete the lift was reduced by 19%. As we all know work is defined by taking the amount of force or weight and multiplying it by the distance the bar must travel. So by reducing the distance by 19%, the sumo lifter has automatically reduced the amount of work necessary to lift a given amount of weight. Bar path: Grabiner and Garhammer (1989) noted that the most of the most important factors to be considered in lifting weights is to keep the weight as close to the body as possible. This reduces the lever arm distance, thus significantly reducing the resistive torque. Cholewicki et al. (1991) found that using the sumo stance not only kept the bar closer to the body than the conventional stance but it also reduced the lever arm distance by shortening the movement of the lumbar. McGuinan and Wilson (1996) similarily found that the sumo lift kept the bar path significantly closer to the body that of the conventional stance. Lift time: Power is defined as total work divided by time. So the actual amount of power it takes to lift the weight is highly dependent on the amount of time it takes to lift the weight. However, McGuinan and Wilson (1996) determined that both the sumo and conventional stance required an average of 2.0 seconds to complete. Thus, there is no difference in the amount of power produced by either lift. Sticking points: It was found half of the sumo lifters had a sticking point somewhere in the second half of the lift where only 15% of the conventional style lifters got stuck here. However, there seemed to be no exact point in common between the lifters. McLaughlin et al. (1977) claims that these sticking points are actually caused at the point where the most effective muscles in the deadlift are in a disadvantaged position. Because we are all built slightly different, this point could vary from lifter to lifter. This exact position can be determined with a Peak motion analysis. Horn (1988) determined that a kinetic analysis using an EMG study of the ankle, hip, and low back in conjunction with strength testing could also accurately determine which muscle group would limit performance during the deadlift. Then proper assistance work could be used to lessen these sticking points. This study did seem to indicate that there were several biomechanical advantages in using the sumo over the conventional style of deadlift. 1. Greater range of knee extension at the bottom of the lift. 2. A more upright posture. 3. The distance the weight must be moved is greatly reduced. 4. The bar path is kept closer to the body, thus making the levers more efficient. --complete references available on request-- >2) if i continue doing sumo style, and noting how my adductors >have been worked, is it advisable for me to switch my deadlifts to >my leg day (i do squats [along with leg curls and standing calf raises] on >leg days)? i currently do deadlifts on mon with back and biceps. thurs is >my leg day. any advice is appreciated. thank. Now here is my advice this subject. Legs are a pretty big muscle to work. Doing squats etc is going to take it out of you. More than likely you will not have the energy to do deadlifts as effeciently. It also stresses the back too. So you are trying to stress two of the biggest muscles in the body. I would personall wait and do deadlifts on another day. Especially if you are trying to gain strength in both. Tom McCullough MEd., MSS From deadlift@pipeline.com Thu May 1 21:40:00 PDT 1997 In article <5kbbbi$pv3$1@news.sdsmt.edu>, agp1152@silver.sdsmt.edu (Alea Pommer) wrote: >Hi all, due to the attention the deadlift gets here in mfw, I started >both sl and regular deadlifts about 4 months ago. Since then, I have >steadily gained strength. But with all lifts, my gains are slowing >down. Last night I pulled 405, off the floor, and am hoping to get >500 by the end of summer. My question is this; does the deadlift >respond to plateau busters like other lifts? Will high volume or HIT >increase my max if I try them for a period of time? How did you >expert powerlifters gain on the deadlift? > You pulled 405# for a single? I see very little (read: zero) use in doing singles unless a week out from a Powerlifting meet. In fact, the deadlift (and squat) tend to work better with a relatively high rep range. My reps are always in the 15-20 range. I perform only one set of deadlifts. I do not perform any warm-ups since I feel that my body warms itself up with the first easy reps (I am thoroughly stretched of course). For a change of pace, you might want to try altering the starting height of the deadlift. I stand on a 45# plate and only use 25# plates so that I get a fuller range of motion. Peace, Tom From: jburnell@jps.net (Jason W. Burnell) Subject: Re: Jason read.Re: deadlift plateau question Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 05:39:08 GMT On Wed, 07 May 1997 00:15:39 -0700, Robert Duncan wrote: >Alea Pommer wrote: > >and want to gain >> as much strength as I can before cutting fat this summer. >> >> Thanx in advance for any info >> Chris Brandenburg >> >> ps lifting in a no chalk gym, sittin at home eatin BBQd tuna >> right now > > This may not be the BEST advice, but when I concentrated on keeping my >ass down as long as possble and keeping my shoulders back while fighting >the tendency to rock back on my heals is when I started to make my best >gains. When I pull I try to get my ass down and keep it down to maintain proper position without leaning forward. The only difference is that I don't putt the bar right at my shins. I usually approach the bar and keep it several inches away from the shins. I get my feet where I want them and then becgin my descent. Butt back and knees out , feeling for the bar with my fingers without actually looking down to avoid rounding of the back. Once I grab the bar, I actually point my toes up towards the ceiling and try to get back on my heels so that I will pull the bar towards me and up instead of straight up. That way I'm pulling back and it is much easier to maintain balance, otherwise there is a tendancy to be pulled forwards with heavier weights. Remember to push out and down with the heels and not just pull with the back. When I pull conventional I place the bar over the joint between my toes and foot and do pretty much the same thing pulling the bar towards me. When I am in position the bar is about an inch in front of my shins as I start the pull. When I start the pull I push the feet into the floor and drive the head back. >Jason are you back to doing sumo? When I get my shit back together I'm >going to start off with sumo for a change. Any thoughts? Well, yes and no. I trained 100% conventional for my last meet (the last 6 weeks). In the warmup room I figured I had a chance to win so I pulled sumo. (it just feels stronger and I'm more confident in it) The guys in the warmup room must have thought I was a moron as I did 1/2 of each warmup set conventional and 1/2 sumo. (NOTE: beginners should NOT switch styles in the warmups room - I have pretty good technique with both styles and have sumoed for the last 3 years - it only took a few sets to find my sumo groove) The 6 weeks of conventional work combined with new prs in good mornings and reverse hypers made my sumo feel even better. I have always been pretty strong off the floor but have had problems from above the knees to lockout when I have failed. This time everything went smoothly from the floor to the top. For my next meet I will pull conventional every other week and then do various assistance work - zercher squats, 8" box squats, heavy good mornings on the other weeks. Then I will pull sumo in the meet. The way I figure it when I can do around 500 in the zercher squat, 475 for 3-5 in the arched back good morning and @ 600 off the 8" box I should go over 700+ sumo style..........but thats another chapter. Jason W. Burnell - http://home.jps.net/cburnell/deepsquatter.htm From: rmann*@escape.ca (Bob Mann) Subject: Re: Deadlifts - muscles used ? Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 03:08:48 GMT sd_fort@alcor.concordia.ca (Bub) wrote: > >Hi there, > >I've only recently started performing (regular) Deadlifts, using some form >graphs and readings I'd previously done. >Despite all this useful information, none of the articles I read told me >exactly which muscles are used while performing a deadlift... >After the first few times I got really sore in my hamstrings, lower >back and upper back.... Is this about right ? > >Thanks. > Sounds like you might be bending over and using too much back. My hamstrings almost never hurt after regular deadlifts because I start with my legs bent. At the start of the movement, try to keep your hips down and your back should remain straight during the entire lift. Other than that, yes, you feel it just about everywhere. Bob Mann From: ez026022@dilbert.ucdavis.edu (Albert Loui) Subject: Re: Shrug at top of deadlift movement Date: 8 Jun 1997 06:28:18 GMT ROBO (ROBO) wrote: : After one too many stiff root beers Brian Russell Raupp : belched the following : : : >On 7 Jun 1997, Andrew Kaplan wrote: : > : >> Anyone ever use this technique, after doing a deadlift and pulling the bar : >> up, one could do a shoulder shrug to further stimulate the trapezius? : >> -- Yes, I do-I find going nice and slow with small plates and shrugging at the top for the first few sets at high reps is a good warm up for the entire back, top to bottom...but the other followup is right-you don't need to shrug when you go heavy...those traps are working damned hard, just isometrically. Just think, they and ligaments are the some of the only things preventing the barbell from ripping your arms to the floor! Al > > Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 11:52:44 -0600 > From: Garry Holmen > Subject: Deadlift drive > > ------------------------------------------- > > In my last cycle of conventional deadlift I found that as the weight > got very heavy (3RM weight and higher) that I ended up > pulling more with my back then I was pushing with my legs. > > This subsequently moves the bar more away from my body and > makes the lift more inefficient. > > So I'm wondering if there are any good exercises to help with > leg drive in deadlifts? > > Garry > Yep, get a trap bar. I can not deadlift every week with a straight bar. I have deadlifted basically every week since the beginning of January with a trap bar. It is almost like a squat with the weight in your hand, but it isn't. It DOES reduce low back strain and the likelihood of back strain. Bill P.S. I did straight bars a few weeks ago and I was pleasantly surprised... Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 06:03:51 -0700 From: Trupiano Subject: Re: Deadlift drive It seems to me, keeping the bar in close is more low back strength. Improving "leg drive" would tend let the bar move away from the body more easily. However, beside improved lifting technique you can work on accelerating the weight. Particularly when you're at a point in the training cycle where the weight are light, 60-70% 1RM, work on being explosive with your movements. Mike From: Thomas Luxford Subject: Re: Shrug at top of deadlift movement Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 04:41:57 -0400 Bub wrote: > > ROBO (ROBO) wrote: > > : If you're deadlifting properly, your traps will get all the stimulus > : they need without the shrugs. The thought of holding those ungodly > : poundages and shrugging with them at the top is more than I can bear. > > Maybe I'm doing the deadlift wrong, but I've never felt any severe hit on > my traps while doing it, at least nothing like after shoulder presses. I'm > also having a great deal of trouble figuring out exactly how a deadlift > will work your traps. > You can't figure out how a deadlift will hit your traps?? Look at an anatomy chart and observe how the scapula is suspended by the traps then visualize yourself holding a heavy mass. Obviously an isometric contraction is required by the trapezius, thus stimulating growth in said muscles. -- Thomas M. Luxford University of Windsor http://www2.uwindsor.ca/~luxford Faculty of Human Kinetics luxford@uwindsor.ca From: jglowacki@vicr.com Subject: Deadlift till ya puke! Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:57:39 -0400 Here we go. Usually my Friday workouts are a "free for all". Do whatever feels good, try new things, etc. I always include deadlifts somewhere in there. Today after some squats and leg presses, I headed into the deadlift area. Right from the first set everything felt great. No creaking in the joints or muscle stiffness. I was in the zone, the point where the brain is shut off, and the body just takes over. After somewhere in the area of a dozen or so sets, in the 200 to 300lb range, I headed back into the locker room, fatigued, starting to feel nauseous. Next thing I know, Blahhhhh! Threw up in the nearest trash can. Now I know the weather could have contributed to this, 80+ degrees, and high humidity, no air-conditioning. But this got me wondering, has anyone else done this. I know people squat until they puke, I have read the many postings. But how about deadlifting? Is there a fraternity of deadlifting pukers out there? Just curious..... Of course after all this I had to return to work, (lift at lunch time), but I didn't feel sick at all. As a matter of fact I feel like I'm on some sort of high. Weird isn't it? Is this what lifting is all about? Oh well, back to work. John Glowacki Dudley, MA -------------------------- From: Ultsy@aol.com Subject: Re: Deadlift til u puke Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:14:22 -0700 Exercises like squats and deads involve the entire body, and so when you do these moves after a relatively large meal, there simply isn't enough blood to go to all your muscles...it's all being used to digest food. So ideally you should have eaten that meal about 3 hrs prior to the workout to avoid ralphing... If you do feel nauseated, sit down on the floor with your head between your legs...you will feel better in 30 sec. Someone else also said to lie down on your back and bring your legs up to your chest, but this would look rather silly in the gym. [Not nearly as silly as throwing up into a garbage can. -MTS] Robert Kung ------------------- From: TMccull230@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 18:58:24 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: (Weights-2) Powerlift Stance **NBAF WEIGHTS-2** In a message dated 6/28/97 5:52:24 PM, "Tim Bolt" wrote: > About 5 months ago I switched from conventional deadlifts to a sumo-stance. > Immediately more weight went up on my deadlifts...have started training conventional > again....I reckon this will help with the sumo deadlift as well as my lowerback strength. > What other lower back exercises should I do besides or instead of hypers and bent knee > Good Mornings. IS it worth doing Stiff Leg Deadlifts? Reverse hypers can be done. I don't like stiff leg deadlifts though. I think they put the lumbar under unnecessary risk. Since the low back takes a beating from doing deadlifts and squats too, I would limit the amount of isolation type exercises you do for the low back. One is plenty. However you might alternate between the exercises mentioned every 3 to 4 weeks or so. > Since finishing these two comps, I have moved my squat stance in closer (legs directly under > me) as opposed to the wider stance. I feel much strong in this position. This is personal preference. Hatfield uses a narrow stance squat and has been very successful while greats such as Rick Crain have done nicely with the wide stance. > Someone else said that it seems the hips are my weak link in the wider stance squat as well. If you have the bar low on your delts like a powerlifter should, the load is transferred to the hips. So naturally hip strength will be important regardless or your stance. Louie Simmons has people do box starting below a parallel position to increase the low end hip strength. Hatfield would probably suggest using compensatory acceleration training, which has worked real well for me. Tom ------------------------------ From beare@mindspring.com.spam Tue Jul 15 20:57:42 PDT 1997 Matt Staples said: >Today I was doing heavy deads, and on my final two sets, I felt like I >was about to faint on about the sixth and subsequent reps! I had to >stop short of failure since I didn't exactly feel like losing >consciousness holding that much weight. This hasn't happened to me >before, but I was really trying to squeeze my quads at the end of the >movement. Could I have been moving that much blood into my quads? Has >this happened to anyone else? Thanks for any feedback. My apologies if >this is a common occurrence. > >Matt How many reps were you doing? Near the end of a set of 20-rep squats, I see funny blinking lights, and everything in my line of sight pulsates. I get dizzy as hell, and I can't really breathe properly. My wife's been around for these sometimes, and she says she gets real scared. Deadlifts, I get real red-faced, and I swear I pop veins somewhere. Do you deadlift sumo or conventional? Maybe you were getting lightheaded from bending over real far for a comventional deadlift, and all the blood rushed to your head?? Either way, sounds like a pretty good set. and on the 7th day, the Lord Squatted and had a tuna shake. ROBO From mlane@suffolk.lib.ny.us Tue Jul 15 20:59:00 PDT 1997 Matt Staples wrote: >Today I was doing heavy deads, and on my final two sets, I felt like I >was about to faint on about the sixth and subsequent reps! I had to >stop short of failure since I didn't exactly feel like losing >consciousness holding that much weight. This hasn't happened to me >before, but I was really trying to squeeze my quads at the end of the >movement. Could I have been moving that much blood into my quads? Has >this happened to anyone else? Thanks for any feedback. My apologies if >this is a common occurrence. > >Matt Generally I would stand up and applaud the effort, but if this is a brand new occurance for you on a weight and set structure that you have done before I'm just a little worried. I know that after a set of deadlifts if I don't feel dizzy and lightheaded I know I did something wrong, but I _never_ feel that way during a set and would be really perturbed if I did. Let us know if you experience this again. Best, MikeL From: Sandeep De Subject: Re: Deadlifts Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:56:59 -0400 > From: "Michael Plumb" > Subject: Deadlifts > My problem is that when I lower the weights my knees get in the way. I then > tend to hold the weights away from my body and therefore put alot of presure > on my back. The further the bar moves away from the body, the more your leverage is reduced, and the more work your lower back has to assume. The closer the bar is to your body, the greater the amount of force provided by the hips and the knees. A properly performed deadlift should involve some scraping of the knee area depending on individual biomechanics. Personally, I tear up my knees pretty nicely during deads. So if you want to reduce the strain on your back, keep the bar as close as possible to your body. A controlled descent should minimize the amount of tearing on the skin, but friction is to be expected and encouraged at that point. Sandeep De The Power Factory - http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/4039/ From beare@mindspring.com.spam Thu Jul 31 22:12:02 PDT 1997 clayton71@aol.com (Clayton71) said: > I have decided from all the advice I was given to start >doing deads but I can not figure out where in my workout to put them.My >current workout is as follows: > >Mon: Chest,Biceps&Abs >Tue:Quads,Hams&Calves (Deads?) >Wed:Rear Delts,Forearms&Abs (Also work on a weak point that I have been >having what ever that may be that week) >Thur:Lats,Traps&Calves (Deads?) >Fri:Triceps,Shoulders&Abs > >I know that they work the back greatly from what I have been told but they >also work the quads greatly I assume.But I am not sure if my legs can >handle squats,hack squats,leg extensions,ham work and deads in one >day.Would the back day be better? Well, for starters, big fella, what say we lose the hacks and leg extensions for now. you'l get 2 schools of thought: Do 'em on back day to start off your workout (i.e. deads, chins, cable rows, etc.) or do 'em on leg day. I've always done 'em on leg day. Typically, I start my workout with either deads for 3-5 reps or squats for 6-8 reps. Then I do 20-rep squats. Some get squeemish about doing deads followed by squats (waaaa, my back hurts . . .). If so, I suppose do some leg presses (ewwwwwww....) My recommendation: try both ways. and what's with that Wednesday stuffing in all the "afterthought" type stuff? Lose the forearm work, since the deads will work the shit out of your grip, lose the extra traps, since the deads will thrash the traps, and take Wednesday off. If you're worked up about rear delts, do a search for REAR DELT ROW and ROBO, and do this exercise at the end of your lats workout. But do 'em. Somewhere, somehow, do the damn things. you don't even necessarily have to do them every week, just work them in somewhere. and on the 7th day, the Lord Squatted and had a tuna shake. RBeare From * Thu Jul 31 22:15:16 PDT 1997 On Thu, 31 Jul 1997 14:00:53 GMT, garyt@pacific.net.sg (Gary Tan) wrote: >Hi guys, > I was trying out 80kgs today, it's still quite bearable... >however my grip fails me at about the 4th rep onwards... > >I know that I should like build up my grip first.. but I would like to >add up on my deadlift... > >would you guys suggest: >(1) just do DL, wait for grip to catch up >(2) work harder on grip, like Farmer's carry I had the same problem you describe. On a different day, (I do it on shoulder day) I finish up my workout with the Farmers carry. My deadlift has improved (grip-wise) once I started doing this. >(3) use straps/equipment to help out > >btw, what's a strap like used for??? So where does all the wrapping >around go?? The wrist? Don't use a strap, you will not be strengthening your grip anymore. > From: beare@mindspring.com.spam (RBeare) Subject: Re: Straight Leg Deadlift - All the way down? Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 00:15:48 GMT alimun@ecf.toronto.edu (Munawaruddin Ali) said: > I keep seeing conflicting views on the deadlift, so I just want to >clear this up. > > In a straight legged deadlift (Where the knees stay locked) >should you go all the way down to the top of your feet, or should you be >going down to a point where you're back is parallel to the floor? > > I've been doing it parallel to the floor. I used to go down right >to the floor, but it just felt wrong when I started getting into the >higher weights... usually those who go all the way down to the floor are rounding their backs and not keeping the tension in their hams. Arch your lower back somewhat, push your chest out, and maintain this position as you lower. You shouldn't bend at the waist, you should bend at the hips. Practice this without weights by performing the technique, and adjusting your body so that you get a wicked hamstring stretch. RBeare From: TMccull230@aol.com Subject: Re: Deadlifts Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 10:39:20 -0400 (EDT) On Wed, 30 Jul 1997, sstevens@accel.net (Suzanne Stevens) wrote: >> From: "Michael Plumb" >> My problem is that when I lower the weights my knees get in the way. I then >> tend to hold the weights away from my body and therefore put alot of presure >> on my back. > Saw an image of a powerlifter at NBAF Magazine website, specific page was > " http://nbaf.com/nbaf/july7pgb.htm ". You can see he has his feet spread > pretty far apart, with his knees pointed in the same direction as his feet, > which are pointed at about a thirty degree angle away from straight ahead. I bet this keeps the bar close to his body. This is not the way I have heard > as the proper way to do a deadlift. I don't see what is wrong with it. Maybe > someone can explain the bio-mechanics. I hope you read the article that went with the picture? It explained how to do the deadlift. There are two variations and the picture was of someone doing what is called the sumo. As far as the bar path is concerned. The picture IS showing perfect form. This is a picture of Ed Coan who is one of the best lifters in the history of the sport. You are either gettng the deadlift confused with the stiff legged deadlift or someone told you completely wrong. In powerlifting, the most of the most important factor to be considered is to keep the weight as close to the body as possible. This reduces the lever arm distance, thus significantly reducing the resistive torque. Using the sumo stance not only keeps the bar closer to the body than the conventional stance but it also reduced the lever arm distance by shortening the movement of the lumbar. Keeping the bar close to the body also shifts the load to the strongest part of the body...the hips and glutes. When you allow the bar to move away from the shins, the load is transfered more to the knee. Tom McCullough MEd., MSS From: pcbell@TAKEMEOUTworldnet.att.net (Peter Bell) Subject: Tip for protecting shins, knees, and balls during deadlifts Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 19:31:12 -0700 Hi all: You know the foam tube that wraps around the bar, used to protect the spine during squats? I've started deadlifting with it still on the bar. It helps protect my shins, knees, and (most importantly) balls. It also helps my form, because if the pad is brushing against my shins and thighs, I know the bar is in the right place. Competitive powerlifters will probably just want to develop scar tissue on their shins -- this tip is for the rest of us :-) This might be old news, but I thought I'd share it just in case. Thanks, - Peter Bell From mlane@earthling.net Sat Oct 4 22:32:22 PDT 1997 Hal Dunn wrote: >Before someone says: "All hail the deadlift," can anyone suggest another >exercise that's benefits are closest to that of the deadlift? > All Hail the Deadlift!!! >Eventually, I'll need to quit my workplace fitness center (only $12/mo.) >and join a real weight gym...but until then I need to make do with what >I have: no heavy free-weight barbells for doing deadlifts. We have >plenty of dumbbells, up to only 80 lbs of barbells, Smith Machine, and >lots of Cybex (Nautilus-type) machines. > >I only weigh 165 and I'm not nearly as strong as I want to be (yet), but >I would think deadlifting an 80-lb barbell would be like pressing a >paperclip or curling a cup of coffee. > At 165 I am deadlifting 300 lbs. I don't say that to impress you but rather to let you know you can get fairly strong doing dls properly. If you are a novice-beginner then deadlifting 2 80 lb dumbbells sounds far more challenging then hoisting a cup of coffee!! >Any suggestions? (Other than joining Gold's Gym.) > > If your idea is to replace the deadlift--forget it. If your idea is to simulate it with an easier movement--forget it. The deadlift is so good because it requires your whole body to do it effectively. Many people simply skip it. MikeL From amartel@nospamvideotron.ca Mon Oct 13 06:35:12 PDT 1997 JD396 wrote: > > >Why all the convolutions (i.e., on a box, on a smith machine)? Why not do > >just plain old deadlifts or even stiff-legged deadlifts? Combined with > >some good compound leg movements such as squats or leg presses and your > >butt should be just fine. > > > >_____________________________________ > >"Bil & Tag" > >a.k.a. William and Tracey Greene > > > well, there are no free weights except barbells at > the free company gym, but there are two smith machines. > i do some squatting with it too. i have noticed that the > inner part of my upper leg is much deeper (thicker front to > back)than the outer, > does this sound normal? any tips for deadlifting on the > smith machine, correct form would be appreciated. > (no one else does deadlifts there!) > > jd You can also do deadlifts with dumbells, also very effective. I don't like machines that much for basic compound exercises like deadlifts. I don't like the fact that I have to give to the machine, I prefer the weight to follow me in my natural movements. I don't think that going up in a perfectly straight movement is very natural. I know we are talking about deadlifts but the only time I hurt my back squatting was on a smith machine...I was not perfectly alligned, with 4 plates on each sides tried to readjust myself...the machine didn't move and I had to twist my back (I know, pretty stupid)...no working out for two weeks after that. Ouch! Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 08:18:25 -0500 From: Bill & Kim Subject: Trap Bar Again The Trap Bar is no substitute for the regular deadlift if you want to compete...my training has shown this to be true now on more than one occasion (my experiments). For me, it is more like a squat with the weight in your hands. Don't expect your deadlift to go up using this if you do no direct low back and ham work during the time you are using it. Will it help the initial quad pull off the floor...my opinion is yes. But, for me that is such a small part of the lift. Just my observations. It does take the stress off the low back, BUT if you do no other direct low back work your strength will go down in my opinion. And certainly don't wait till 6 or even 8 weeks to switch back. The movements are too dissimilar. I just about died just now doing a straight bar deadlift workout. Specificity anyone!? Bill From beare@mindspring.com Tue Nov 11 20:00:43 PST 1997 muthafuca1@aol.com (MuthaFuca1) said: >Here a little trick I learned from Steve Scialpi on how to increase your > deadlift. Try doing your deads with the 35lb plates for a couple of weeks. > The smaller diameter plates will increase the distance over which the bar must > travel. After a several weeks of this, go back to the 45s and they'll feel > light. > yeah, this works, unless you heave some serious weight. Otherwise, stand on a platform, with the bar on the ground. Works just the same idea, and it works great! It definitely works the back a bit more. Very good if your hips are strong and your back is weaker. ROBO and Sonia ICQ - 3004798 From tazpt@surfsouth.com Tue Nov 11 20:04:58 PST 1997 In article <64abg2$mko$1@newsd-163.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, Mateo70@webtv.net (Matthew Sanchez) wrote: > > I learned with a standard stance and yet I have seen some people lift a > lot of weight with a sumo stance. Which one do most powerlifters > prefer? Is it a good idea to alterate between stances? Is the sumo > stance more dangerous? > > Matthew A. Sanchez > Webtv Rules. If you haven't seen it don't comment until you've checked > it out. Most people can lift more weight with a sumo stance because the distance the weight travels from the floor until you complete the movement is much less. Is it more dangerous?? That depends on you. Sumo requires much more strength in your low back, where standard allows you to use your legs and pelvis to lift. Both are effective movements, and I would say that it's a matter of preference as to which one you should do. It is a good idea to alternate to some extent to improve low back stability, though, but don't try to lift heavy until you have the form down. Chris -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet From rmann*@escape.ca Tue Nov 11 20:05:52 PST 1997 Mateo70@webtv.net (Matthew Sanchez) wrote: >I learned with a standard stance and yet I have seen some people lift a >lot of weight with a sumo stance. Which one do most powerlifters >prefer? Is it a good idea to alterate between stances? Is the sumo >stance more dangerous? > >Matthew A. Sanchez >Webtv Rules. If you haven't seen it don't comment until you've checked >it out. I, like most people, started out with the regular stance. After reading about it, I tried the Sumo and was able to lift more almost immediately. Very soon I stalled out and recently went back to regular deads full time. I was training most of my lifts regular style anyway and eventually came to the realization, with some prodding from some with more experience at the gym, that I was built more for regular deadlifts. My max went up from 182.5 to 195 in just a few weeks.(Kilos) In june I had lifted 182.5 in contest and by September had to really struggle to lift 405 lbs which is only 2.5 lbs more. By mid october I was able to lift 195 with great difficulty and on Nov 1 did it fairly easily. 195 is roughly 430 lbs. Powerlifters are split on preference. I have noticed that most taller competitors prefer the regular and shorter ones the sumo, especially those with generally short limbs. Since my frame is more long legs and short torso I do better with the regular lift. The reasoning is that in the sumo you do more of the lifting with your legs and in regular you do more with your back. Whichever is shorter by comparison will be able to do the greater amount of work in most people. Since back strength is important for both styles, the majority of training should be done regular style with a switch during the higher weight/lower reps stage of training in order to get the groove down. Neither is inherently more dangerous. Sumo puts greater stress on the hips, regular on the lower back. Bob Mann Subject: Dizzy upchuckers From: "James Hood" Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:35:35 -0800 To all those who have complained of dizziness and nausea after deadlifts and squats, I would add "Me too!" followed with an assurance that this response seems to be normal and, in fact, amounts to pretty strong evidence that these exercises are worth doing. They involve so much work by major muscle groups that they temporarily deprive other parts of the body of oxygenated blood; when the weights are finally put down and the muscles relax, there is a huge "gush" of blood returned to general circulation. All of this is quite taxing to the cardiovascular system, which can take a little while to get everything back to normal. In fact, you may notice your heart rate speeds up considerably during this time as it tries to get all the sludge flowing smoothly again. There are two things I have found that reduce the severity of these rather unpleasant symptoms. One is to keep your cardio fitness level high -- another reason to spend 30 minutes on the Stairmaster or plodding along smashing grass a few times a week. It may even be that for some lifters, the limiting factor is their cardiovascular capacity rather than strength. The other is to anticipate the response. As soon as I put the weights down, I sit down, usually on one of the cross-bars of the squats cage, and put my head down, almost to my knees sometimes, until things improve. If you remain standing, your poor brain, perched all the way at the top of your architecture, gets poor service from the pumping station. Its response is to start shutting the system down in hopes that you will crash onto the floor, thereby putting the head back at the same level as everything else and improving blood flow. The brain also empties the stomach in this process, just to be sure no blood is being wasted on digestion or other idle pasttimes. I used to get the same sensation at the end of long runs, as the legs released their grip on the blood supply, so I didn't find it alarming when it followed a round of deadlifts or squats and took it as a sign that I had actually worked to capacity for a few minutes. After all, you never get dizzy doing curls, do you? Disclaimer: I don't know anything about any of this and can only draw on my own experience. James R. Hood (jhood@alliances.net) Strategic Alliances Group (http://www.alliances.net From beare@mindspring.com Fri Nov 28 20:19:30 PST 1997 Bill Roberts said: > > >On 22 Nov 1997, UserHarley wrote: > >> Why on earth would you do deadlifts and squats on the same day? >> Patricia C > >Well, suppose you want to do these exercises once per week. Either you do >them both on the same day, or you are in the situation of doing one on one >day, and then the other on the third day. Some people don't like that. > >They certainly can be trained on the same day, so long as one avoids >burning out with a lot of sets with relatively low percentage of 1RM >(say, under 70%) on the first type of exercise performed. > >-- Bill > > I've done heavy deads (triples) followed by 20-rep squats b4. Grueling and brutal, but quite effective. ROBO and Sonia ICQ - 3004798 Subject: Re: DL From: Charles.I.Staley@west.net, B.Sc.@west.net, MSS Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:48:58 -0800 >From: Alan Anthony Byrne BSc >Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:59:46 -0800 > > Hi there, I am sure this must have effected several >fellow gym rats out there. Anyhow, at the moment I can squat >more than I deadlift. I can squat about 170kg ass to floor and >deadlift about 160kg. The problem is I feel I could deadlift more >and the movement isn't as extreme as the squat but I just can't >hold onto the damn bar. I don't want to use wraps either as I >would like to develop a vice like grip, any suggestions? Will the >grip develop on back day in general or will I have to work in >forearms into my routine? At the moment I am doing a 4 day split >with chest+bi,legs,tris+delts,back days each week. Workout times >range from about 70-90 mins. Alan (and others experiencing similar problems), here is a solution that has worked without fail for me: Purchase an oversized (2" to 3") barbell. They are avialable from Iron Mind (916-265-6725) and Hammer Strength (800-543-1123). Ironmind also sells an interesting book called Dinosaur Training by Brooks Kubik, which offers interesting advice on how to use oversized bars. One technique which works quite well is to perform deads from knee level in a power rack, emphasizing static holds at the top of the movement. You'll need to progress gradually, however, or you literally won't be able to hold anything for several days. Oversized bars are also quite extreme for performing all manner of curls, particularly reverse curls. Best of luck... Charles I. Staley, B.Sc., MSS (staley@myodynamics.com) From jburnell@jps.net Tue Dec 9 22:23:42 PST 1997 On Sun, 07 Dec 1997 23:40:16 -0800, Rob and Stef wrote: >I think I asked this before but since I end up in and out of here so >much I dont know if anyone answered it. > >Doing a sumo style dl are there any rules in regards to how wide your >feet are? Essentially you could end up with this minny DL but still be >locked out. Whats the word? I noticd a massive change when I seriously >began trying sumo and am curious why more people are not doing it. > > Rob Some people are just not built to sumo.(in terms of competition) There are no rules regading foot placement. However you are limited by the plates and good sense. Go too wide on a slippery platform, miss the lift and you might lose toes. Jason W. Burnell - email me for info on the STRENGTH list Deepsquatter's World of Powerlifting http://home.jps.net/cburnell/deepsquatter.htm AAU Powerlifting http://home.jps.net/cburnell/aau.htm TUNA SHAKE http://home.jps.net/cburnell/shake.htm Raider Fan Till I Die - At this rate it won't be long! From Xjgrimes@goodnet.com Tue Dec 9 22:27:30 PST 1997 On Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:51:20 -0500, Bill Roberts wrote: > > >On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Robert and Sonia Beare wrote: >> chierico@writeme.com (Giovanni Chierico) said: >> >> >Hi everybody, here's the question: >> >I have a problem with the negative part of the deadlift, >> >I have no problem to keep my back straight when I lift the >> >weight, but when I go down it just bends. > >> don't lean over, sit down with the weight. Make like you're gonna sit down on >> your ass, except you have a bar hanging from your arms. > >I know I wrote a long answer before, but I left off one major point. > >After you have the bar below your knees, at that point, lowering should >be mostly from bending the knees yet further. > >The other part of your problem may be psychological. You are thinking >of lowering the bar, so you are lowering it in the easiest way -- by >slumping your back. Still be thinking about keeping your shoulders up >square and your back nicely arched, doing the lowering only by flexing >at the hip and knees. Excellent advice - and as someone who has had form problems in this area of the DL, let me toss in one more little hint. Think of yourself as standing, well, crouching at attention. Keep your upper body fairly rigid, shoulders up, head up - this also works for me when I first grip the bar and am going for my first lift. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jon L. Grimes Get your low weight, high reppin' bicep curlin' Xjgrimes@goodnet.com "I just wanna tone" ass outta my power rack. http://www.goodnet.com/~jgrimes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:24:20 -0700 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: DL training Ron wrote, >I was wondering if anyone could give some advise on DL? >The start of the lift is the most difficult, but once I get a half inch, >the rest is easy. But to get that half inch, I use my lower back. Is >that bad form? Do you need to train for DL all year? I find it takes >the longest to recover for and if I do it weekly it shortens my >microcycles. Should I be doing reps or singles? >Now I only do DL singles in my power phase because it seems to overlap >with other lifts and doing rep really tires me. >Are there assistance exercises to help me strengthen that first part of >the lift? Are you doing the sumo deadlift or a conventional deadlift Ron? No matter which lift you do the lower back is a primary mover. The sumo focuses more stress on the legs and hips and a conventional deadlift puts more stress on the lower back. If you are doing a sumo it is very common for the hardest part of the lift to be the 'break free' stage - off the floor. You shouldn't worry about using your lower back, but you should try your hardest to ensure that your back is flat - not rounded. Obviously if you want a strong deadlift you have to train it year-round. But you don't have to deadlift. Squats, shrugs and heavy rows would work all the muscles used in the lift. But then again - why not deadlift? Great lift. A lot of lifters claim once every two weeks is enough. You might want to try a ten day cycle instead of a weekly cycle. Dr. Squat uses a schedule which allows for maximum recovery. Take a look at his home page. I work my deadlift and squat on the same day. Heavy deadlift - explosive squat with acceleration. Heavy squat - deadlift assistance. Since I don't have much time to train I do reps, but ... I like singles. When doing reps do each one like a single. Set and pull for each rep instead of bouncing the bar off the floor. Squats are the best assistance exercise for off the floor. You might also want to try leg presses and power cleans. I would also suggest doing raised platform deadlifts. Build a platform that lifts you a couple of inches higher than the plates on the floor and deadlift off that. I read that when performing the deadlift it is best to visualize the bar as stationary - bolted into the floor - and to try and drive your feet through the floor instead of trying to lift the bar. Good advice. I better let it go at that. I don't have a problem off the floor, but I use too much lower back so I've been trying to find some advice as well. This is more or less what I've come up with. Keith Hobman Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 22:46:03 EST From: Namgawd Subject: Pulls In a message dated 97-12-24 00:43:16 EST, you write: << I was wondering if anyone could give some advise on DL? The start of the lift is the most difficult, but once I get a half inch, the rest is easy. But to get that half inch, I use my lower back. Is that bad form? >> Ron, I had the same problem. Now I still have it, just with heavier weight. To deal with it, I tried it all. What worked best is high-pulls (Olympic style). You generate so much explosion off the ground, you'll definitely be able to move more weight in the pull. >>Do you need to train for DL all year? I find it takes the longest to recover for and if I do it weekly it shortens my microcycles. >> Yes, you should train it all year, though you may change the emphasis, e.g., focus on developing your hams and explosion off the ground in the offseason and focus more on pulls once you start training for a meet. <> The pull is unlike most lifts, you get no feedback whatsoever about the weight until you crank it off the floor. That being the case, it's important to train that way. You lose the training effect by doing more than 3's and end up training strength endurance. That won't translate well to a big single. If you want to go higher than 3's, do it in the offseason. << Now I only do DL singles in my power phase because it seems to overlap with other lifts and doing rep really tires me.>> You're on the right track, though be careful with your intensities. Too much heavy work will catch up with you. << Are there assistance exercises to help me strengthen that first part of the lift? >> High pulls, power cleans, snatches, Romanian deadlifts, glute-ham raises. Dan Wagman Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 21:35:13 EST From: Namgawd Subject: RDL John, Romanian DL's (RDL) are similar to stiff-leg dl's, only that you can use more weight and not strain your lower back. In stiff legs you keep your knees semi locked and you do a dl. However, the problem is that the bar moves away from you and in doing so places a tremendous strain on your lower back. At this point, your lower back is acting like a hinge, and I don't need to tell you how bad that is. Now, in the RDL you pick the bar off of the ground, keep your knees semi locked (that's a slight unlock), you shift your weight back on to your heels and lower the bar while keeping it in contact with your thighs and legs at all times. Essentially you slide the bar down your thighs and legs (this unloads your lower back to quite an extent). You'll need to stick your butt out quite a bit and in the beginning you'll find yourself falling backward to the point where you have to take a step back to catch yourself. That's ok, it's part of the learning curve. The main emphasis is on your hams and you could expect this exercise to help you break the bar off the ground. To give you a point of reference, Chirmiken (sp?) has done this with 300kg or 661. Dan Wagman