Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 09:22:53 -0500 From: "William Frenick" Subject: Re: partial deadlifts Greetings, I often wondered how folks reported higher numbers doing partials then their 1RM, or more specifically, when they were doing partials to work a weak point. Obviously, if a lifter's deadlift is slow off the floor, but lockout is cake, then doing rack deadlifts will produce much heavier lifts. However, I've seen articles in PLUSA where lifters claim their weak link in the deadlift is lockout, then go on to lift weights doing partials that are significantly higher then their 1RM poundages. I think the key to that would be, like Shawn said, positioning of the bar. When doing partials, the hardest part is setting up. You have to make sure your body position, bar placement, etc. is the same as it would be if you were doing a full rep at that point in the lift. That is something I've found very difficult to do, for a number of reasons, such as balance from pulling the weight from the floor, angle of the knees, etc. Your body is going to assume the most efficient position to lift the weight, which might not be the same position you'd in when you do a full rep. That might signify a different weak point. For example, it's possible that a weakness in the bottom of the lift is causing a lifter to end up in a disadvantaged position when the bar comes to the knees, therefore making the top of the lift the failure point. I'd think it's easier to miss a flaw in the portion of the lift where your body is strongest (the strength may cover up the technical flaw), which then shows up where you're body can't correct the problem. I'm no expert in body mechanics, by any strech of the imagination. I'm sure there are folks on the list who are can (and will!) verify or dicount this. It's just what I've seen in my personal experiences. So, any advice for setting up properly for partials? Thanks, Bill I've got some advice. Don't do rack deadlifts. Do Reverse Band Deadlifts. Bands are suspended from the top of the rack so they are not helping you when you are locked out. You can be sure to be in the right position because you are doing a full deadlift. Greens are helping me about 35-45 lbs. at the bottom and set no none at the top. I was able to lockout 40 lbs. more than my max with these and overload the top. Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 08:49:58 -0500 From: "William Frenick" Subject: Re: partial Deadlifts Greetings, To whomever wrote this reply to me (there was no name or email address) thank you for the advice. I'm new to the chain/band thing, and never even thought about that. It sounds like a great way to make the weight progressively heavier as I approach lockout, while making sure the weight is in the right groove. One question though... since my weakness is the lockout, that means weights I blast off the floor get stuck at the top. So wouldn't using reverse band deadlifts, which would make the weight heavier as it got higher, do the opposite of what I need to do? This is a confusing subject for me, probably more then it needs to be. I need to somehow find a way to bring my lockout to where it should be. What muscle groups are mostly involved in the lockout portion of the deadlift? Thanks again, Bill Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 10:01:29 EST From: TSteve4220@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: partial Deadlifts No bill, the whole idea is to work on the lockout. Buy reducing the amt. you pull off the floor but still using proper form, you are doing partials or rack pulls without the rack. The bands take the weight off at the bottom and when the tension is released, as you lift, the lock out is stressed. One other question, do you use sumo or conventional? If you are a conventional, do some sumo work and if you are a sumo do the opposite. As to which muscles are involved in the lockout, it could be a weakness in the hips. You may also want to try sled dragging. Tom Stevenson Wheatfield,NY Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 09:14:04 -0500 From: Michael W Brookman Jr Subject: RE: Re: partial Deadlifts I didn't write the reply, but I wouldn't completely dump rack lockouts, I do love the rev. band deads though. I nailed a 625 two weeks ago and I am not that great at the dead anymore. My meet PR is 515. If your weakness is the lockout, the rev band will help immensely! By the time you get to near lockout you should have the bar completely out of the bands and have to finish the movement with no band assistance. Thus you overload the lockout. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Brookman Roanoke, VA THE POWER PAGE: http://www.powerpage.net Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 09:01:22 -0500 From: "Ken Waller" Subject: DL Question Tom- I've emailed you before about lifting, and I have a question I'd like to (humbly) ask of you. I've read the two articles on your Texas Powerlifting Site in regards to Deadlifting ('Deadlifting' and 'Conventional or Sumo'). I currently DL conventional, and have taken about a month off, and have decided to give the modified sumo stance, which you use, a try. My question is, do you have any advice or tips you could give me? My best conventional DL is 545 without a DL suit, and I'm also wondering how much weaker I'll be (how long do you think it will take for me to get to this level using the modified sumo DL)? I know you don't know much about my training, diet, or recovery abilities, but I do know you've been around the iron game a while, and have trained with quiet a few very good lifters, and just wanted to get any thoughts or tips you might have. I lift drug free (other than creatine and glutamine), and lift 4 days a week using the Ed Coan periodization routine (SQ on Mon, Shoulders on Tues, DL on Thurs, BP on Sat). Thank you in advance for any help you can give me. And when are you going to put the FAQ up on your website??? Ken Waller Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:32:09 -0500 From: "Dasko, Dan" Subject: a deadlift question how wide of a grip do you use when doing a sumo deadlift. I thought I'd try sumo for a while and see if that doesn't help my conventional lifting. Dan Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:56:44 -0500 From: Taggert Doll Subject: RE:a deadlift question I grip so my elbows just touch the inside of my knees in the starting position. Play around with it--I find it really annoying when my hands are a bit off and drag against my legs too much or my forearms drag on my waist at the top. Tagg Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 21:34:12 -0600 From: "Scott Shafer" Subject: Re: a deadlift question Sumo grip depends. Too narrow and you can't get your shoulders back at the top. Too wide and you're pulling the bar farther than you need to. Experiment. Scott Shafer Converse, TX Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 07:06:15 -0400 From: Michael Ambrose Subject: Deadlift question I switched to sumo style deadlifts about 6 months ago. In that time I have made very good progress in regrads to improving my technique and strength. In generl my hips and lower back are my weak points regarding squats and deadlifts (in my "guesstimation anyway ) I recently deadlifted a weight that is 94% of my best meet maximum and ~90% of my projected maximum. I was successful on the first attempt. I tried it a second time. I broke the floor easily enough, manged to get the bar about 2/3 - 3/4 of the way to lockout then I stalled. My usual sticking point for conventional deadlifts is about 1/3 of the way up. I've never managed to move the weight that far and not lock it out before. What do you think my weak link is? My inital thought was that it was my lower back. However upon some thought, I began to suspect my hips as my legs were actually "wobbly" on the failed rep (another first time event for me). Any thougths/suggestions? Thanks. Mike Ambrose Millis, MA ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 09:13:56 -0400 From: Taggert Doll Subject: RE: Deadlift question Mike, I have the same problem. I thought sumos were supposed to be easy once they were off the floor! I stall really close to lockout. I have been hitting my glutes and hips more. Doing pull throughs and ME rack pulls. Haven't pulled heavy since starting these so I can't tell you if they are working for me. Tagg Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 15:13:16 EDT From: ANMLECNMZR@aol.com Subject: Re: Deadlift set up question I think I was the one posting the original question you mention...just asking how people set up. I read in a different article somewhere else online about russian research finding roughly the same thing...that by getting down and getting prepared for the lift you get rid of that reflex. In addition, the Russians found that what was best (for conventional lifters) was to 1.grab the bar as if going to do a straight legged deadlift. 2. Quickly dip down to your normal deadlift depth, come back up (back into straight legged deadlift position) 3. Immediately dip down again to your normal deadlift depth and come back up. The Russians apparantly noted that the timing of the second dip and speed of both dips was critical, but that preformed correctly, this was the best way to deadlift. Unfortunately the website did not detail what the russians had determined was the correct timing or speed to it. I think they were right about it though, the double dip...have set many PR's using it...problem is its difficult to quickly dip down to your correct depth w/o a mirror, and as they say, timing is very important...I've went a little to slow before and it makes for a slower start off the floor and thus a worse lift. Seems to help further if you're tensing your muscles when you go down both times as well as abs. Still haven't developed good enough timing w/ it to become confident to use it at a meet, but it does add to the poundages, just not consistantly until you've figured out how to use on your own. Quite a lot to remember in the course of 7 seconds or so from putting your hands on the bar to finishing the lift. --Jeff Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 3:28 PM Subject: [Strength_List] Deadlift problems My name is Colin Spencely and I'm a long-time lurker on the list. This is one of the most informative lifting resources I've ever found! Now, the problem. I was maxing out on conventional deads today and discovered a really bad sticking point. The bar broke easily off the ground, but stalled completely about halfway up my shins. Any ideas? Colin Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 17:21:10 -0500 From: "Bear" Subject: Re: Deadlift problems Try Rack pulls starting at the sticking point. Use the wt you maxed at for starters. Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 13:47:44 -0400 From: Taggert Doll Subject: Conventional pulling with/without a suit Hey list, I recently switched to conventional from sumo (thanks Kip!) because I felt a lot stronger with the conventional stance. I use a z-suit when I pull sumo in meets so I tried it out with my new stance last night. It sucked! I felt a lot stronger pulling without the suit than with it. Is this common? I felt like I couldn't get my hips under me at all and when I did they sprung up too fast. I think I will pull without a suit in my next meet. Any suggestions? Tagg Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 14:12:13 -0400 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Conventional pulling with/without a suit Tagg, The trick to pulling with a squat suit is that you have to sit down and back like you would in a squat to get the stretch right out of the suit. There is a point that you can lever your torso too far forward and you lose the tension vertically. Really make sure you stay back into the suit when you are setting your grip and don't drift forward (i.e. your knees come forward a bit and/or you collapse slightly). Right before you pull you have to really force your butt back into the suit and flatten your back. The bar should pop off the floor prior to you really even thinking about starting just from getting your tension right coupled with the suit. Try getting your breath at the top and sitting down, get the grip and go. Don't waste any time at the bottom with a suit on. I could never make the Z work for me in the pulls. I used a Champion for a long time though. My advice is to get your hands on a Max DL...the cut is different and it makes the pull a whole lot sweeter. I've used mine both sumo and conventional and I think I'll probably set my all time DL PR with it conventional . They're not cheap, but they'll last forever and you can wear it tighter and tighter as you grow. Good investment if you can swing it for sure. Other alternative is to try a Champion...they are a lot easier to pull in from my experience. Nowhere near as good as the Max, but much easier to make work than the Z IMHO. -wade Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 07:30:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Dennis A. Heimer" Subject: Blister/calus question I ripped a calus off my hand doing deadlifts several weeks ago. It affected my totals when I tested at the end of my training cylce so I was bummed, but hey, it happens. I didn't do any deads for about 3-4 weeks while it healed. Well yesterday I was doing deads and after the third set at 365# I noticed I was getting a blister. So I used the wraps for my next set at 405# and after 4 reps, I put it down then noticed a huge chunk of skin rolled up to my finger joint. Naturally being the animal that I am (lol) I got some anti-bac ointment from the guy at the desk, taped it up, and got back in the rack for power shrugs! But now I'll have to heal my hand again. I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions on dealing with this. Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:58:54 -0400 From: "Clauss, Mike" Subject: RE: Blister/callus question Two words super glue or is that supposed to be one word? Next time glue the flap of skin back down, if you've already cut, bit, or pulled the flap of skin off you can still put a drop of two of super glue on the callous to seal it up so it doesn't open up when you're lifting. Mike Southfield, MI Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 15:46:57 EDT From: ANMLECNMZR@aol.com Subject: Re: Blister/calus question Screw it, lift anyway. Don't use something that is relatively minor (a little hand pain) keep you from achieving something major (a great deadlift). Back when I only DLed once every two weeks it really bothered me, but now that I do twice a week (once a week maxouts and once speed DL) I don't care. I just have some areas of my hands that will permanently look like crap and be a little painful to the touch. I've had a coupla times that enough skin would come off that I'd get my hand to bleed...it might hurt a little bit, but watching your deadlift sit on its butt would hurt more (for me anyway). Changing your hand placement might help a bit too. I found the best place for hand comfort is to keep your knuckles pointed parallel to the floor and make sure the bar sits in between your palm and your fingers, in other words, don't position the bar so that force will be applied to the palm or blisters, position it so the force is on your fingers. Smelling salts might also be of some help, you'll temporarily forget about hand pain, and will also probably lift faster, thus decreasing the amount of time you have to have so much force on your hands. Then again, you probably should be using smelling salts on any max attempts anyway. Have fun! Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 08:48:23 -0400 From: Rick Matthews Subject: Re: Blister, Callous Prevention is the key. Go out and get buy some of those gloves with the fingers missing. (NOT!!) Seriously, just use some sandpaper on your hands every couple of weeks when they build up to the point of starting to peel back. 80 or 100 grit works fine. Sand them down just far enough so they won't catch on anything; leave the base. Do NOT use a belt sander. Rick "C. Jeff F. (w)" wrote in message news:3B5EF624.E3E498BB@hivaay.not... > You just barely touch the weights on the floor, or set them down? > I'm just curious. > > I have done straight leg dead lifts in the past on a box and let the bar > down close to my ankles but that was with light weight (135 lb). I think > this works the hamstrings more this way. Given the probable position of your lower back, i.e. rounded, it likely worked your spinal ligaments more, which is not a good thing. > > SLDLs should be done with a slight bend in the knees, right? > It is probably not good on the knees. I know it isn't good on the > hamstrings. I did then one time with my knees locked out. One > hamstring was real sore the next day, maybe I strained it a little. You really don't need to go lower than about mid-shin with these, and depending on flexibility to just below the knees for some people. Romanian DLs are done with knees quite bent, and they work just fine for hams. It is very difficult to retain proper spinal position if knees are locked. Krista http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 11:27:20 -0600 From: "Linda Schaefer" Subject: Scraping shins/etc during DL >I'm sure this has been brought up before, but after searching the archive >for all of the relevant terms, I can't find any historical posts. So, the >question is: Is there any reasonably easy way to avoid scraping my shins >and >knees during DLs? Thanks. > >Neil Hodge Neil, one way you can use is to use soccer socks. You can't have them OVER the knee, but up to the base of it. You can also double them up, 2 socks is legal. Another way you can help yourself is to take a 2 liter pop bottle, cut out a shin guard, that can be placed either under 1 sock or between 2 socks, to guard the striking point of your shins. If you use the pop bottle guard, check it in with your equipment. I've also heard of people using some heavy cardboard - but it's less durable and starts deforming with sweat. Using abundant baby powder on the knees all the way to your lockout point, especially if your point is on a suit leg, also helps prevent catching on the bar. you should also teach yourself good technique in putting the bar down, sliding it down instead of bouncing it off the knees. Occasionally despite wearing 1 pair of soccer socks, abundant powder, I will lose skin to a particularly sharply knurled bar. but it's usually on the way DOWN, not up. Except at meets using the squat bar (IPF or USAPL) for the deadlift. You can't prevent the damage to a conventional lifter's legs on the thighs from the knurling, but you can minimize the rest. In the lower range of my lifting program, I also use a pair of thick sweats over my legs to prevent the shin damage. But even through these you will get the occasional bruise and see some lines up the shin if you are using good form. Hope this is of help, The Phantom Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 13:15:53 +0100 (BST) From: Scott Shalkowski Subject: Good Mornings Question about arched-back good mornings. What's the proper form? My current form is to stick my butt back, like doing Romanian deadlifts, and keeping my back tight until I'm just a bit above having my torso parallel with the floor. This about right? About round-back goodmornings: What should I keep in mind when doing these? All the gym advice I've ever had always stresses the importance of never rounding the lower back when lifting, so I'm completely in the dark here. Any helpful URLs welcome. Scott Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:09:39 -0700 From: Jesse Stephens Subject: Re: Good Mornings I think you're going way too far down for the arched back GMs. The movement should be much shorter than getting to parallel. You should also be able to do a lot more weight than normal GMs. You should keep a strong arch and only go as far as you can without losing that arch. Jesse I agree with Jesse. I heard the Arch back GM described as the very top of the squat. You use a wide stance, stick your butt back and start to lean. At the point when you would normally begin to bend your knees to squat is when you stop the movement. Tagg Tue, 11 Sep 2001 08:34:21 -0400 From: "William Frenick" Subject: Subject: RE: Good Mornings Well, it looks like I've been doing these wrong for a long time... damn! I've been doing the same... keeping the arch until I'm just about paralell to the floor. Using a really wide stance lets me lower down between my knees. From posts in the past, folks said it's impossible to go this low and maintain an arch... but I think they meant using very heavy weights. So, what did I learn today? I've been going too low, and using weights that were too light (135 - 155) that let me get that low. I love this list! Bill Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 11:10:13 -0400 From: Taggert Doll Subject: RE: GMs **What's a normal GM? Rounded back? There are all different types. The kind that I consider "normal" is taking a narrow stance, knees slightly bent, bend over to just past parallel and up. My back rounds on this naturally at the bottom of the lift, I think this is why they are called rounded back GMs sometimes. correct me here if I am wrong guys. **This was a max. effort exercise, so I did nearly my squat 1-RM for a max triple. If you are tripling your squat 1RM on GMs, something is wrong. Tagg I agree with Jesse. I heard the Arch back GM described as the very top of the squat. You use a wide stance, stick your butt back and start to lean. At the point when you would normally begin to bend your knees to squat is when you stop the movement. Tagg Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 09:50:41 -0400 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Blister/calus question > From: "Dennis A. Heimer" > > > > I ripped a calus off my hand doing deadlifts several > > weeks ago. It affected my totals when I tested at the > > end of my training cylce so I was bummed, but hey, it > > happens. I didn't do any deads for about 3-4 weeks > > while it healed. Well yesterday I was doing deads and > > after the third set at 365# I noticed I was getting a > > blister. So I used the wraps for my next set at 405# > > and after 4 reps, I put it down then noticed a huge > > chunk of skin rolled up to my finger joint. Naturally > > being the animal that I am (lol) I got some anti-bac > > ointment from the guy at the desk, taped it up, and > > got back in the rack for power shrugs! But now I'll > > have to heal my hand again. I'm wondering if anyone > > has any suggestions on dealing with this. As soon as they rip, glue them back down with Super Glue. Since it has passed already, in this case, I'd suggest a few layers of NuSkin. Just slop it over the affected area, let it dry up and keep lifting. Regular filing/sanding is a good thing too so the callouses don't get too big (that is when they tend to rip). My .02, -wade Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 18:55:15 -0700 From: Dan Wagman Subject: Re: deadlifts problems > I am just about totally and completely lost. I have trained regularly for the > last 2 years. In the last 7 months I have missed 3 workouts. My squat has > jumped up a 45# to a raw 450, my bench has started to make a come back (I lost > it through overtraining a year ago) hit a 325 raw. My deadlift is just dead. > I am right where I was 2 years ago which is a totally unexceptable 385. I have > tried periodization, I have tried 3x3 where I deadlift 3x a week, I have tried > westside where I improve my deadlift by not deadlifting. I have changed my > stance from sumo to conventional to semi sumo. What I have come up with is > when I am finished deadlifting my shoulders and lower back are killing me. My > legs are fresh which tells me my form sucks .I seem to be able to tell myself > over and over about form and using my legs and as soon as I lift it is all > back and shoulders. Sorry for such a long drawn out post. > bobc Dude, you've done all of these different "systems" in two years worth of training? No wonder you ain't getting anywhere. In any lift, technique is absolutely key. So pick your style, sumo or conventional, and stick to it. Next, totally back off in weight and become a student of technique. I suggest you start with 55% of your max, but let's just round it up to 225. Do no more than 5 sets for no more than 5 reps with absolutely perfect technique. If you need to have someone video you to see it, do that. Work your way up in 10 pound jumps until you hit 315 and then back off by 25 pounds for a week. Start back at 315 the following week and continue with the 10 pound jumps until you hit 365, back of by 25 for a week and then resume. I guarantee that you'll break through your barrier. Assistance exercises? Don't even worry about that at this point. You might include no more than 3 sets of 5 with the same level of intensity in your pulls with rack pulls just above the knee, Romanian deadlifts, and good mornings. You could do a few leg curls, too and that's your pulling workout. The key is that you need to learn proper technique and make use of your leverages. Your shoulder and back are most likely sore because your technique isn't dead on, which you can't really expect after 2 yrs of training; you're still learning. And you're probably pushing it too hard because your pissed and frustrated because you're not as strong as you'd like to be. If you can be patient and approach your training with deliberate control, it'll be hard to predict where you'll end up. If you keep looking for a "training program secret" and if you keep pushing it, you'll never become a respectably strong person. -- Dan Wagman, Ph.D., C.S.C.S. Publisher/Editor in Chief, PURE POWER "When Training + Science = Peak Performance" www.purepowermag.com Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 22:37:45 -0600 From: "Scott Shafer" Subject: Re: deadlifts problems Get your hips down at the start and drive with the legs (like an ass-to-floor squat). Do not shoot the hips up first. Keep your torso as upright as possible throughout the motion. Lower the weight until you master the technique. Question: What body type are you? Monkey (long arms & legs)? Or troll (short arms, short legs)? Monkeys generally do better conventional, trolls better sumo. --Scott Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 23:16:28 -0800 From: "orlanes" Subject: Re: deadlifts problems bobc, Something that has helped me with deadlift form was videotaping my lifts. Have someone record your lifts at a meet or workout, then review. You need to have something to compare it to, I'm sure you've seen some lifter with exceptional form. . . try to visualize that person or those persons when you watch the tape of yourself and compare the differences. Another thing I do is mentally take my shoulders and back out of the picture. I do so my locking my upper body in place prior to the lift. Lats flared but shoulders back, so they're kind of working against each other. I reach down and drop my hips low so my back is as upright as possible. From there, the hips and legs bring the bar up. Even though I don't work out with one anymore, I like to visualize the leg press. I ask myself, "if I can leg press X amount, why can't I squat/deadlift that?" Even though it's not 100% true, I tell myself, "it's because my form sucks." It gets me to focus more on my form. Good luck and happy lifting, Gene Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 16:24:06 -0600 From: "bobc" Subject: Re: deadlifts problems I am not sure how to reply. I have been lifting for more then 15 years just started powerlifting about 2 years ago. Maybe 3 different routines is to many in 2 years? I obviously don't know for sure . In retrospect after reading your reply it was probably self-defeating changing my stance from conventional, to sumo to semi sumo. I was and am trying to find something that works. I am unsure which way to go I squat a wider then shoulder wideth but not as wide as some people I see. I have seen no real difference in ease of lift with any stance. If I set up with out thinking it is semi sumo. Feet as wide as I squat hands inside. I do appriciate the feedback and will seriously consider keeping the weight down and working on form. In fact I will start the 3x3 (I like rotating the 3x3 and westside)shortly and that would work out good for what you are suggesting. thanks again. bobc