Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 18:45:55 -0800 From: "Sam Glover" Subject: RE: Strength_List: RE: Changing Deadlift technique On the same vein, I have been pulling sumo for several years now and did 500 in my last competition about 6 weeks ago. I am 242, so not a big weight, but it was a good jump from where I have been. I really hit the DL's with 35's for warm-ups and before the cycle a 6 week speed DL cylcle prior to starting basically a 10 week Hatfield's periodization. Anyway, I am getting back up for another comp and my hips are bothering me during the DL's and my strength seems to have dropped off considerably, really not getting the weight off the floor well at all. For us 'non-thin' individuals, what are the benefits of the sumo vs conventional. I haven't worked a conventional pull in a long time, so I was interested in whether I should explore a different technique. I think that now I need to concentrate on dl's with 35's to get my strength up off the floor. Thanks in advance for your comments and suggestions, Sam Glover Pullman, WA (soon to be Pittsburgh) ate: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:36:25 +0100 From: "Jan Baggerud Larsen, Teamleder utviklere 8366" Subject: RE: Strength_List: RE: Changing Deadlift technique When I do sumo I round over in the middle/upper back and keep the lower back almost vertical (tuck the butt under. I don't arch). This works very well for me. I get a tremendous leverage when I do this. I was wondering about the sumo technique I saw on the WSB squat tapes. Todd Brock did sumo with his feet pointed straight ahead. What's that all about? I point my toes as far out as possible without losing my balance (wide Charlie Chaplin stance). Jan Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 05:54:09 -0500 From: frralbany@isoa.net (Jeff DeMott) Subject: Re: Strength_List: Changing Deadlift Technique.... >Which to use? I'd do both. Why limit yourself to one? Use the sumo to build >hip and leg strength. Use conventional for lower back strength. Use the one >you are strongest at in competition. Good point, I deadlift twice per week following my two squat workouts, I rotate sumo, where I pulled 560 x 2 on Monday, followed by 320 x 8 x 3 stiff leg DL. Friday I will pull conventional. I rotate two weeks of, rack pulls, floor pulls, and block pulls. I find a great deal of benefit from doing a variety of DL work. Jeff DeMott Albany, Georgia Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:34:19 -0500 From: "Dasko, Dan" Subject: Strength_List: Deadlifts, glutamine, hook grip Did deadlifts this morning and they felt good. Not having done them in 2.5 years, I did 315 for 2 when the most I ever did was 405 ish for 1-2. Does anyone know of a good video of conventional deadlift technique? Freaks has a video clip of Brad Gillingham lifting a small car(ok just 8 or 9 hundred pounds) and I tried to emulate what he was doing by grabbing the bar then sitting back then starting to pull. I think that with a little practice, this will be very helpful compared to my previous technique. Previously, I would address the bar about 2 inches from my shins, squat down and take a mixed grip, then stand up, hips coming up first then trying to drive with the legs, but usually ending up all back. Any pointers? Tried deads with a hook grip. Not bad, not great, but not bad. Does anyone get more than 2 fingers over their thumb? 315 was painful, but not painfully so . I also tried a clean grip - both hands gripping the bar palms down with the thumb wrapped, but not held. This seemed just as good as the hook grip, without the pain, but it did require more forearm. Dan Dasko Sr. Database Analyst CDI Advanced Technologies Team Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:07:10 -0500 From: "Dasko, Dan" Subject: Strength_List: Deadlift problem solved!! I figured out a way to reduce or get rid of the dreaded bloody shins when deadlifting (for me anyway). I deadlift conventional, and I've been using a double overhand grip, but not hooking the thumbs. My secret to no blood, I grip the bar narrow enough that my thumbs are between the bar and my shins as I pull. Since I don't drag the bar along my body, I usually end up with the bloody shins from the bar kissing them once on the way up. Pretty soon, you'll have to shake my hand to tell that I deadlift. P.S. Is it just me, or does the rounded back deadlift seem to do a killer job on the muscles of the middle back on up into the traps? Dan Dasko Sr. Database Analyst CDI Advanced Technologies Team Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:46:07 EST From: Bahyord@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: Re: Strength-Digest: V1 #1738 << I figured out a way to reduce or get rid of the dreaded bloody shins when deadlifting (for me anyway). >> My younger brother gets really bloody shins. He now carries a roll of clear packing tape in his gym bag. He puts it on the bar where he ususally hits his shins and takes it off after the workout. Dave Royhab Leesburg, VA Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:39:46 -0700 From: Jim Ferry Subject: RE: shins Soccer socks work wonders at protecting your shins as well. Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:23:19 -0700 From: "Linda Schaefer" Subject: Strength_List: donating blood/shins.... the other technique is to cut the round section vertically out of a 2 liter pop bottle, plastic, and use soccer socks. insert the plastic where you smack yourself bloody. if necessary, put on sock. then plastic, then sock. and consider adding some baby powder over the whole thing......pull the socks over the knee too. the Phantom Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:10:27 -0500 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: deadlift dilemma Rack pulls and pulls off the floor are different lifts. You are setting up in a different orientation and it just isn't the same. Not to mention that you did the pulls in a meet so the adrenaline factor is another thing to consider. Use the pin pulls as a training aid but, IMO you shouldn't rely on them to gauge your full ROM DL's. My .02 - -wade >>> "JASON ARBOGAST" 02/08/00 12:41PM >>> i have a question for some of you who use the ws routine to find those week spots, i think i may have hit one. i had a meet a couple weeks ago and did real good on all three attempts in the deadlift. my last pull felt so easy,should have had them add another 20lbs to the bar.in the gym this morning i did partials from shin high at the same amount of weight i did in the meet and failed on the lock out and my grip sliped. it shocked the hell out of me.is it because i can get more speed and momentum from off the floor than the rack or is it just a week spot? Jason R. Arbogast pasco wa Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 14:27:54 -0500 From: "EliteFTS" Subject: RE: Strength_List: A little help needed @FREAKS O' NATURE >Yesterday I went for a max single in the deadlift I was going to pull 500 >then go for a pr BUT that did not happen. I warmed up then took 455 no >problem then on my 500 attempt when the bar reached knee level my right knee >shook violently and threw me out of my groove. MY knee had also slammed into >the bar and gave me quite a scare because me knee hurt but after about five >minutes I knew it was fine but did not want to chance it. >I use the westside system so I do not actually deadlift very often could >this be why this is happening? >Here is a direct link to the video it will take about 2 minutes to download. >http://www.freaksonature.com/images/500miss.rm >You can e-mail me privately if you want. >THANKS GUYS I noticed several things while watching your video. first, Watch your barbell. It starts very close to your legs then goes forward then you get stuck. 2. You are stating with the barbell too close to your shins. You want the bar to go in a backward direction or at least in a straight line. 3.You are also not starting the pull with your shoulders behind the bar. You get into the proper position then your shoulders come forward. 4. You are wearing your belt to low, pull it up 5. You are holding your air in the wrong place. Watch when you take in your air, your shoulders rise. You need to learn how to be a belly breather, Pull all the air into your belly and push out on the belt. It may elp to loosen up the belt one notch and learn to push against it with your belly full of air. 6. Add in more pull throughs and reverse hypers. Your hips still did not begin to push through. 7. The reason your leg started shaking is because the weight was to far out in front of you and because you did not have your whole body tight. Before you begin the pull tighten every muscle in your body. To fix this add in some light dead lift singles (about 8 to 12 sets) using 50-60% after your speed squat workout and concentrate on the items above. Try it again in about a month after about 4 or 5 speed dead lift sets and let me know what happens. Dave Tate Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 14:51:48 -0600 (CST) From: Keith Hobman Subject: RE: Strength_List: deadlift Wade wrote, >Really? I would be interested in the benefits of doing sumo as a training >exercise. I do conventional, I just can't seem to get the sumo technique. The sumo is a great hip exercise - if hips are a weak point it should be considered. Also good for the lower back and hamstrings/glutes. Why wouldn't anyone consider doing it? Anyone doing a Westside routine normally would follow Louie's advice to do work in the other style on occasion. Variations such as off blocks and extra-wide stance should be considered. Technique wise - Mike Armstrong told me once that you know the first time you try whether sumo is going to work for you. I don't buy it. Sumo initially felt awkward to me and I was weaker in it, but I stuck with it and worked on my weak points and now there is no difference between my sumo and conventional. Think like this. Set up, grab the bar and bring the shoulders back and the hips into the bar. Then try and drive your feet *apart*. Not down, but out. At the same time drive your hips into the bar and pull back. Keith Hobman Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada Great White North Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 08:18:03 +1100 From: "Mel" Subject: Re: Strength_List: deadlift Pete, I was a convential dler, but after injuring my back converted to sumo. Why? 1) I am able to stay more erect with sumo and hence can protect the injured site a bit better. 2) I am tall (5'8") with long legs and short torso, therefore sumo means I have to lift the bar a shorter distance. 3) I can make greater use of those legs and less use of my lower back. 4) I do not seem to scrape my shins as much sumo. Disadvantages? Takes some time to make the change both physically and mentally. Need to build up hip girdle, cannot just back it out. and gain some inner thigh flexibility I have doen this with heaps of wide squatting work, arched back gms with bent knees and a wide stance (as wide as you sumo if you can) and wide stance pull thorughs.As I have also widened my squat stance, these two now complement each other nicely. Mentally the toughest part of the sumo for me seems to be off the floor. A great deal of mental toughness required to get the bar moving, as there is little positive feedback for a little while. But once it starts, it goes! Mel Maldon, VIC, Australia Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 08:34:42 -0700 From: "Linda Schaefer" Subject: Strength_List: Sumo vs. Conventional OK. there are at least two versions of sumo style, and several conventional styles. For example, there's the ray benemerito big guy feet at the plates pointed out sumo..and then there's the Mod sumo with the feet simply outside the shoulders/arms and more or less pointed closer to forward. For some reason, air force teaches their whole team the mod sumo....sigh. Among the advantages, well, you can move a lot of weight IF you are built for it. Disadvantages include....big time groin injuries...and bombing out. If you don't manage to start the bar, it's over. and essentially, the full sumo tends to be a back pull. Mark Sigala is anotehr extremely effective full sumo lifter, 650 dl at 148 in the USAPL. Jennifer Ray also - but she experienced sadly the other problem - if you are having an off day....there is not really the same chance as a conventional lifter to grind it out. Anyway, it does favor short torso people. Not ALL of course. The mod sumo is more forgiving. but also is a little spread out...again, some people have balance issues and most people do not leg press as wide as a mod sumo stance, can lead to a loss of power! Now for conventional....advantage tends to go to the longer limbed lifter. And speed, if it is used, can be very effective. Speed is not generally a good idea in a sumo lift. But in the conventional, especially in the mod and full dives, it can enhance the strength. Conventional has one very notable advantage - if you don't get a good jump on the bar, or are having an AWFUL day....you might still grind out the conventional.....not FUN...but it usually can be done. Hence it is more difficult to bomb conventional. The conventional also enhances one's squat, reinforces the same move....the same muscles. And most people put their feet within shoulder's width on the leg press, this is generally the best point to push. Resembles a leg press if you think about it a little.... It all boils down to where you feel most effective....and where you can execute the best form. form is all in the deadlift....raw power without structure can harm! Warmest Regards.... the Phantom Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:26:12 EST From: TSteve4220@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: More deadlift questions . . . . Dave I would for example do 2 sets of 3 trap bar dls and 2 sets of 3 hacks. Other exercises you could do are various goodmornings wide stance, close stance, seated etc., rack pulls from various heights to a one rep max, stiff leg dl, pulls from a box, static dl( kind of a reverse rack pull, put the bar under the crash bars of the rack, pull the barbell to the crash bars, keep constant pressure for about 5 sec. set the bar down), hyperextensions with or without weight( I do these after almost every dl workout) and so on. One othjer thing I thought of after my post, I do all my deadlift work, with the exception or max lifts, in basketball sneakers and off a piece of 3/4 plywood. They combine to lift me about 1 and a half to 2 inches off the floor. The when I remove the ply and put on dl shoes, the weght seems so much easier. I guess it is kind of like doing your whole workout off blocks. If I can help you iny more let me know. Tom Stevenson Wheatfield NY Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 20:25:56 -0500 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: sumo dead lift help!! I've studied this puppy out a lot, got a lot of advice from people like Jason and Wade (Hanna) and read everything I could find on it. I tend to get my best nuggets of advice when guys like Dave Tate just let things slip with some advice to people. I swear Tate has forgotten more than I'll ever know about this, so maybe he'll respond and you'll get lucky Jim... Anyhow, here is what worked for me, a pretty average built guy. The sumo started to go up when I strengthened my hips. SO first off - work those low box squats hard! Second, technique. There are some days when it just ain't there in sumo. You have to roll with the punch on those days. I started to get the idea for sumo when I began doing heavy rack pulls. It taught me the concept of driving my hips into the bar, rather than trying to pull up. I liked Tate's suggestion. He said something along the lines of try to drive the feet out (like you are doing the splits) and the hips down and into the bar. If you look at Jasons video's you can see how he alost 'cocks' his hips and lower back just prior to driving into the lift. Great technique which some people do naturally (my daughter does) but I had to work hard to learn it. ANother thing - I set up with my feet pointing almost straight ahead like a box squat. I get a lot more this way, although different people get different results. Anyhow, try driving the feet out, keeping the knees psuhed out and drive the hips into the bar. DOn't even think of lifting up - try to frive the knees and feet out and the hips down. See how it works! Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:01:16 -0500 From: "Clauss, Mike" Subject: Finding 1RM Friday night I decided to find my max deadlift, I started by warming up, then did 3 sets of 10 with 225. From there I tried to guess what I could lift and started at 315, that was way too easy so I jumped to 335, then 350, 370, 390 and finished at 400 because my grip was starting to give out. I feel like if I had started my attempts at 390 I may have had more strength left in my grip and I might have been able to pull another 15-20 pounds or more. Now that I know I can pull 400 the next time I test my max I'll start there, but I still want to check my squat and bech, so what's the best way to warm up and gague your 1 rep max before you actually attempt the lift to aviod shorting yourself? Mike Clauss Southfield, MI Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 09:14:29 -0600 From: Roger Subject: Re: Finding 1RM At 10:01 AM 3/20/00 -0500, you wrote: >Friday night I decided to find my max deadlift, I started by warming up, >then did 3 sets of 10 with 225. That wasn't a warmup...that was a training session. Here is how I warm up for a 400lb deadlift. 135x8, 225x3, 275x1, 315x1, 360x1, 400 If you learn how to warm up properly you will find yourself fresher on your heavy pulls. You will not have a problem with grip. And you will pull CONSIDERABLY more. Roger Broeg Burlington Iowa http://www.willinet.net/~broeg/index.html Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 10:01:12 -0600 (CST) From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Finding 1RM Multiple reps in the deadlift really don't make much sense to me. With the squat and the bench I might do triples until I feel I can't do a triple and then do singles. In the deadlift I might do 5 reps with 135, but after than I rarely do more than singles if I'm testing my max. I would suggest a general warm-up (ie abs for reps) to get the blood flowing and then treat it like a meet. You know you can do 400. So I would go something like this: 135x5 225x1 275x1 315x1 365x1 405x1 4??x1 Last weight is based on the 405 - try for as much as you can. The last three reps pretty much mirror how I would approach a meet. If this were a bench or squat I might do a few more triples with the lighter weight. By the time I get to the deadlift in a meet I'm pretty much warm anyhow. Keith Hobman Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada Rich wrote: > > I read that at the top of the deadlift, you should pull your shoulders back > if they're rounded. If I don't do this I can do all the deadlifts fine but > if I pull my shoulders back, I start having back pains during my set. Should > I just ignore the advice and forget about pulling back my shoulders? I would guess taht, in pulling your shoulders back, you are hyperextending your low back, and that is what's causing your low back pain. Make sure that as you try to pull your shoulders back (fact is, you should attempt to pull them back from the start of the rep) that you're NOT leaning back at the same time, as that is waht's putting pressure on your low back. Lyle Daniel F Garcia wrote: > > Did my first deadlift today. Did 60kg. One thing I noticed was that my knees > got in the way all the time. Does anyone else notice this ? they don't get in the way if you do them correctly Correctly = shins should be more or less vertical at the start of the pull, which means you have to be sitting back on your heels at the start of the pull. If knees are getting in the way either: a. you have biomechanics that are going to be a problem no matter what (long femur generally) b. you weren't sitting back enough (usually because calves and/or hamstrings are too tight) Lyle Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:05:39 -0400 From: jmh50@daimlerchrysler.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: deadlift question Yesterday I was deadlifting.On the first rep it seams to want to pul me forward just a little.Then on the remaining reps(sets of 5)there was no forward pull. Its just a slight pull but on a heavy pull even a slight pull forward can be fatal. Any sugestions?Thanks in advance. Cozy Cozine Winfield,Iowa something I learned from wes hanna. try to keep your big toe off the ground. this will keep you back on your heels. make sure you keep your head up too. Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 10:50:02 -0600 (CST) From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: Newbie Question - Assistance on DL lockout Mark wrote, >I've been lifting for 5 months, primarily core exercises (DL,SQ,BP, etc.) >and have a question on the DL. I have been working slowly up on the DL and >have just reached 3 wheels - actually two wheels, a 35 and a 10 - VERY small >gym... :). Recently, my sticking point is the last 3-4 inches to lockout. >What are the best assistance exercises to strengthen this area? Generally means more work in the hips, although it can also mean a general weakness in the traps and upper back. For both of these a Bill Starr assistance program can work (I just talked to Steve about this so it is fresh in my memory!) - ----- Listed below is the Bill Star deadlift routine. You may want to try it or work in some aspects from it into your routine. Bill Star routine (start with the listed number of sets but increase them with time except for the good mornings, do not do more than 4 sets of goodmornings for this program): * Friday Evening: Power cleans for 5 sets of 5 reps. Clean grip high pulls for 4 sets of 3 reps. * Saturday: Power snatches for 5 to 6 sets of 3 reps. Snatch grip high pulls for 4 sets of 3 reps. * Monday Evening: Good mornings for 4 sets of 8 reps. * Tuesday: Shrugs for 5 to 6 sets of 5 reps. Power rack lockout (from your sticking point) for 3 to 4 singles plus one isometric hold for 12 seconds. - ----- Larry Pacifco used to do shrugs both in front and behind as assistance for his deadlift and felt they were crucial. The cleans and snatches work on CNS recruitment and explosive hip technique. Don't be fooled by the relatively light weight you use - these are an excellent exercise. Other good things to do are include some upper back work. Other good hip exercises are pull-thrus, ultra-wide stance raised platform sumo deadlifts, wide stance bench good mornings, arch back good mornings and low box squats for max weight. Technique wise - I tend to have problems in this area when my form gets sloppy and I start to let the weight get out in front of me. This means I have let my shoulders come forward, or in the last meet did kind of a goofy 'pull the weight into me and bounce it back out off the shins' type of pull. You may want to watch your technique on this as well. One thing I have noticed is my technique isn't as good when I do a Westside routine. I think the way to overcome this while doing it is to focus on competition groove while doing max effort and assistance exercises, something I don't do that well. HTH. Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 06:24:32 PDT From: "Dave S." Subject: Strength_List: Sumo to Conventional > >Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 10:54:54 -0500 > > From: "Scott Shafer" > > Subject: Strength_List: List is too quiet! > > > > Well, I guess I'll share an observation. Recently, I've been training my > > deadlift sumo style on all pulling exercises. I hit a point where I've been > > stuck on all pulls. Last Friday I went back to pulling conventional and > > immediately and easily added 40 lbs to my deads! Lesson: Train mostly sumo > > (more hips), pull conventional (stronger pull for long legged lifters) when > > it counts. > >By an amazing coincidence, I also deadlifted conventional last Saturday >after two plus years of sumo, and I also found the weight going up pretty >easy. I did two sets of three reps at 355, when my sumo max at the meet >one week before was 375. I couldn't believe how easy it was to pick the >bar up off the floor. I didn't test my max because walking to the gym, I >injured my left ankle when I stepped into a pothole in the parking lot, >turning my foot sharply on its side. It just got worse during the workout >and I had it on ice most of the weekend. But I am going to try some >conventional deadlift workouts once it heals. I probably won't abandon >sumo, but if Steve's theory holds true, I'll be pulling conventional "when >it counts" in the future. > >Tom Griffin >Seattle I've had problems with my e-mail lately, that's why I'm just getting to this post now. I just wanted to add that I did my first meet on March 18, 2000. My background was mainly in benching and squatting, I never did deadlift, needless to say it wasn't my best lift. I basically started to deadlift 5 months out from the meet, the first 2 months I just tried to develop form and see what technique I liked better(Conv or sumo). Sumo seemed to feel better and at the time conventional seemed to cause pain in my front hips where the leg bends. 3 months out I started a Sumo deadlift program, nothing to fancy just trying to increase weight each week. At the time my max was 315lbs on the Sumo. About 4 weeks out from the meet a friend of mine who deadlifts alot suggested I try conventional, I explained to him why I didn't like conventional but said I'd give it a try anyway. To my surprise I did conventional what I was doing sumo with much more ease. The next week I did a little tweaking with my stance, I went about shoulder width, and pulled a PR 440lbs, this really helped my confidence, I also didn't stay down to long when I was setting up, I basically went down mimicking the lift then went down again and this time actually doing it, if that makes sense. I took a week off before the meet. My first attempt was a 418, then I wanted to try a pr 450, which I did with ease. My next attempt was a 473.5lb I pulled that as well, I wanted to take another attmpt because I still had strength in me but I wasn't allowed. I was very happy about my performance. What I thought was going to be my worst lift actually was one of the better ones, I was off in the squat and bench that day so setting two pr's in the deadlift really made up for it. I think that doing the sumo then switching to conventional really helped me. My frontal hips no longer hurt me anymore, I guess I had weak hips and the sumo's helped that area. Just my 2 cents. Dave Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 15:03:10 GMT From: "Garth Landers" Subject: Strength_List: Sumo to conventional Thats what Louie Simmons calls conjugate training. It is the best part of the Westside "System" in my opinion, even better than the speed training. I love conjugate training-maxing out on different exercises all the time works best for me. Garth Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 19:56:27 -0700 From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: Strength_List: Deadlifting Program Squatboat@aol.com wrote: > > Hello everyone. OK...senario: I used a Coan dl program...gained a good 30lbs > to my deadlift. I deceided to use it again (should I have?) Anyway, the > second time doing the program I find that the beginning of the phase feels > much much heavier...I struggled to complete sets where as I used to breeze by > them. Every other time Ive finished a program I usually did alot of good > mornings and rowing movements for a few weeks, rested a week and then started > a program. I skipped that few weeks this time around. Should I have? > Lastly, can I do max-effort type good mornings during the light phase in a > program? Please help!!!!!! What you are missing is that most of the plans we see are peaking routines geared towards the last weeks before a meet- usually 8-16 weeks. You would probably do well to train 5s to 8s and get as heavy as possible on those for a period of time and then redo the peaking plan. Jason W. Burnell STRENGTH ONLINE: http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/ Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:34:34 -0400 From: "Michael W. Brookman, Jr" Subject: RE: Strength_List: Deadlift Lockout... One tip that Capt. Kirk gave me when I competed in the USPF Maryland meet when he was judging the deads from the side, was when I got the bar to knee level, flex the buttocks, and thrust them forward. This would allow you to use the whole body to finish the lift better. Worked very well too! Mike Brookman Roanoke, VA Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:39:48 -0600 From: "Linda Schaefer" Subject: Strength_List: Deadlift Question - for J OK - if you've not trained your deadlift for 4 weeks or more, yes, you will experience some problems deadlifting a max lift. Depending on what you did during that timeframe - you need to look at several possibilities. One being your form isn't all there right now due to lack of practice - even light sets would have helped there. Two - you were likely peaking at 455 - and so why expect to nail 415 when you haven't deadlifted in a month or more (believe me, I wouldn't!)? Three - why the layoff from the deadlift - and are you aiming at a meet? If you are aiming at a meet - then plan to peak it now - short schedule and do not expect 455. Otherwise, I would suggest you drop down and restart your cycle. Last, but not least - the deadlift requires some mental strength and focus too - at least for a good attempt IN MY OPINION. If you do not practice your MENTAL anchor for the deadlift, it fades too. And in the deadlift, to be most effective - you must BELIEVE it will happen. One other potential for a misfire would be good mornings - did you twist or fatigue yourself more than usual? same muscles there! Recommend consider a massage to investigate if the muscles are pulling on one side if the discomfort continues. Just curious - does anyone here expect to lay off the squat or bench for a month and then just magically pick up with a max lift the first day back? The deadlift is the same way. I know a couple of lifters who do their last deadlift 2 weeks out from the meet - that's their timeframe. But that's the most. I do my last squat and bench 5-6 days out from the meet, and last deadlift no more than 8 days out. And I have heard that strength can start to fade as quickly as 5 days from a missed workout - and personally that first session back after a meet is SHEER HELL. As in, Gee I was strong last weekend, why the trouble now.....GROAN. Of course - it's without a suit too - which will make a difference in form too. The point here is - do not panic - but again - treat your deadlift with a little more respect - and realize that form and strength, mental and physical both - need to be trained more to be effective. I do not agree that the deadlift is so easy it does not require form or training. But then - that lift is the one I most revel in. Good luck, J and I hope you're not fast approaching a meet - if so, just do the best you can - we learn from these experiences! Warmest Regards, the Phantom Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 08:15:52 -0700 From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: Strength_List: dl ????? jmh50@daimlerchrysler.com wrote: > > I tried a sumo pull on friday. when I got about 4" from the top, the bar > twisted to one side and my body twisted with it. what causes this? it > wasn't an up & down movement, but a side to side movement Was the bar twisting like a helicopter blade? If so, was it twisting back on the same side as yor undergrip hand? If so, try moving that foot out about and inch or two. I used to have that problem but this tip (from Louie) cured it. - -- Jason W. Burnell STRENGTH ONLINE: http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/ Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 12:02:23 -0500 From: Tom McCullough Subject: Strength_List: Re: High Pulls Jason Burnell wrote: >I think that they may be kind of like shrugs in that regard. Some people seem >to swear by shrugs but they don't do much for me, dedlift wise. I agree with on the shrugs. The traps do 4 things...the adduct the shoulder (good for rows), they rotate the shouder upwards (upright rows), the elevate the shoulders (shrugs), and they depress the shoulders. You don't do any of this in the deadlift. The traps are only a stabilizer. Outside of doing these in the offseason or at the beginning of your training cycle, spending a bunch of time doing sets of heavy shrugs isn't going to benefit you deadlift a great deal. The traps get plenty of work just working as stabilizers during the actual deadlift. >Might help my bench at least if I can get thicker up there. By doing rows and lat pulls you will develop the traps (lower and middle fibers) plenty. Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:03:58 -0600 (CST) From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: Brookman's Power Page Jim wrote, >On Mike Brookman's Power Page there are several pics. One is of Keith >Hobman doing his second dl on a meet. He appears to be doing it sumo. >The next pic is of him doing his final attempt and it appears to be done >conventional. > >Is this the norm for him? I have never seen anything like this! I started out pulling conventional only. In my first meet about 3 years ago all my pulls were raw and conventional. I started to explore the sumo because it stresses the spinal column less and I was training my daughter, who was quite young. She uses only the sumo in competition. I also noticed when I went heavy (for me anyhow, when I get near 600) in the deadlift I could feel my back rounding and the stress is felt in the spinal column. When I tore by bicep tendon I basically had to start from scratch in the deadlift anyhow and I began to take injuries a little more seriously. I decided to lift sumo. Initially my weights in the sumo were a little lower. I pulled 563 easily in my first meet and in my second meet twice got 585 to my knees on a bad day. On my first meet back after the injury I could only get 540 to go with the sumo. On my next meet where the pics are from I did a second of 568 sumo, but twinged the hip, so I did a third of 580 conventional. Interesting that this was my first conventional pull since ripping the bicep tendon off over a year earlier. Since then I have done three more meets and I go by feel. If my sumo is feeling good I stick with it. If I feel my technique is poor I switch to conventional with no qualms. At the Edmonton open meet I tore my palm on my second sumo attempt, so I switched my hands and went conventional on the third. At the Winnipeg meet my neck was bothering me so much I just went conventional to avoid getting into a suit. I don't feel there is much difference in my strength in the two lifts. I can break more off the floor in the conventional, but it is a more dangerous lift for me. In the sumo I'm not as strong off the floor, but my lockout is much better. I anticipate using the sumo more in meets to come if the Inzer suit works as well as they say. However, I still train both lifts and switch back and forth between them in my training. I know some people who feel that you know right away if sumo is for you. I disagree. People who are relatively strong in the hips will feel comfortable right away with the sumo, IMO. The rest of us have to get the hip strength up to make the sumo feel right and that can take time. But with time I think most people can do an effective sumo lift. I feel the people who say 'I tried it, but it didn't works as well...' went by the initial feel and couldn't do as much and then gave up on it. It just requires strength in different places, thats all. Keith Watson Davis wrote in message news:i9jumskc0rfv44vr5fj50d8t3ao61vtffs@4ax.com... > On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:49:26 -0500, nobody > wrote: > > >Just a quick question about a problem that I have been unable to solve > >myself: I am trying to do deadlifts, primarily to work my glutes along > >with my back. However, no matter how much I try to drive my legs into > >the ground, squeeze my glutes before lifting, keep my back arched and > >not rounded, concentrate on my glutes, change my grip, and change my > >stance, I hardly feel anything in my glutes at all even though the > >weight is difficult to lift. At least, my glutes don't feel like my > >quads do when I do squats or my chest does when I bench. On the other > >hand, my lower back feels very weak after I do them (although not too > >much so, I don't think). I have tried concentrating on driving my legs > >to the floor, to the point of almost falling over backwards because of > >the momentum when I drive myself upwards... > > > >I am a tall, thin guy with a generally weak lower back. Perhaps, my > >form is simply poor. My guess is that I need to lower the weight and > >let my back grow stronger until I can completely exhaust my glutes. In > >the meantime, I could continue to do other exercises to target the > >glutes, such as split squats and lunges. Is this the best strategy or > >is it more likely that my form is incorrect when I deadlift? Perhaps a bit of both. Very rarely will you feel things in your glutes, simply because glutes are (at least in most folks) the strong link in the chain. Your back, OTOH, sounds like it's the weak part. > > > >Thanks for your assistance. > > Try SLDLs and/or Good Mornings. > I'd be hesitant about suggsting either of those right off the bat. What I would recommend instead is 4 weeks of very light form practice (perhaps with just the bar) of DLs, augmented with 2x weekly lower back strengthening exercises such as back hypers. After that I would assess how the lower back is doing before progressing to the above. SLDLs and GMs, IMHO, require a certain foundation of basic strength, and for some trainees (including myself), are never really a good option. Krista -- ------------------------- http://www.stumptuous.com/weights.html mistresskrista@home.com On 14 Jul 2000 14:41:41 GMT, muleface@aol.com (Mule Face) wrote: >I've been lurking on this ng for several months while reforming myself from fat >couch potato status. Congrats. >The info has been great, but I'm having a problem. There always is. >Recently, I've switched to a 3-way split, based on the 3 basic compound lifts. I use that one myself. >Monday - Squats, leg ext, leg curl, calf raises, standing bb arm curls >Wednesday - BB bench press, incline db bench, flyes, triceps >Friday - Deadlifts, one-arm rows, lat pulls, back hyperextensions, db shoulder >press What is with the back extensions after deadlifts? >Differing ab exercises are spread out throughout the week & I walk/hike on off >days, Sunday is usually rest. I've lost 95 pounds (out of about 200 needed) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ WAY TO GO! >Enough bragging. Here's my problem. I just started deadlifts last month, but >the last 2 times, I've come out with a bad muscle strain in my lower back that >halts my workout & puts me into major pain for a couple of days. That is no damn good. >Since the >exercise is new to me, I haven't even gone at all heavy on it. There must be >something wrong with my form, That's a good guess. :) >although I'm trying to do them according to what >I've read on sites referenced here. Any of you experts have suggestions? Experts? Remember to take all advice on the 'net with a grain of salt and THINK about stuff before you do it. >Should I drop the DL's in favor of something else?? I don't like that idea. >Anybody?? You are a heavy guy...and still losing weight. Use the back extensions as a barometer of sorts. My friend is now just chunky and he hurt himself bad as I was watching...so it's my fault. He rounded his back. He swore up and down he did not...but he did. He is still in 'rehab' so to speak. He is sticking with the back extensions. Then adding one or two hands behind the head with back extensions. How many reps of back extensions can ya do with both hands behind your head? Now consider that you are adding whatever weight on top of your upper torso weight when you deadlift. Maybe not quite if you can keep your back very upright- but you know what I mean. General suggestions- 1) Get more flexible and always stretch before doing deads. Can you touch your toes without bending your knees? Stretch your hamstrings and calves then do it some more. Then once more for good measure. 2) Pull from your heels as much as you can. 3) Try to raise everything at once. IOW, don't raise your hips/ass then pull from the lower back. This is probably what you are doing and your back is not strong enough to handle that. That is even providing you aren't rounding out. 4) CAREFULLY do SLDL's so you can work the back in that manner..._AFTER_ you can do like a billion back extensions with both hands behind your back. 5) You can put the pins on the cage outside pointing towards you. Put it low but not too low. You can now do partial pulls until you get flexible enough to pull from the floor. 6) When you go to pull get close to the bar. In general, it sounds like you are rounding your back out without realizing it. Stop doing that. :) You can read everything on the net and it's VERY helpful but you need to figure the subtle things out and make an exercise your own. So, good form is a must of course...but be sure to warm up and get flexible. It takes time...but it'll come. Dean On 15 Jul 2000 07:13:53 GMT, muleface@aol.com (Mule Face) wrote: >Hey Dean, thanks for the thoughtful response!! Well, I got a lot of help around here and still do...I just asked for help with an aspect of the deadlift as you can see. IF I can give something back...great. Well, it seems you are set to do deadlifts. What weight are you using, btw? >>2) Pull from your heels as much as you can. > >I must confess, the movement I'm doing doesn't feel like that... What I did was use a lower weight and in a literal sense thought of the bar as a lever and specifically pulled backwards and raised my front foot as I lifted to FEEL what it should be like to pull from there. Now, I damn near fell backwards but for *me* this helped get the feel. Another thing that helped was I got flat soled sneakers. Many shoes and fancy sneakers have huge heels. My prior pair of sneakers had the sole start at appx .5 inches and by the time it got to the heel it was just shy of 2 full inches. For me (and I think most other folks) this is a significant mechanical disadvantage since it pitches one forward and makes pulling *from* the heel that much more difficult. Take off your shoes and pull in your socks if the floor has enough grip to see what kind of difference that makes. BTW, this basic premise applies for the squat as well. It should be obvious when you try anything new that you use very low weight. >>3) Try to raise everything at once. IOW, don't raise your hips/ass then >>pull from the lower back. This is probably what you are doing and your >>back is not strong enough to handle that. That is even providing you >>aren't rounding out. > >Bingo - I'm afraid you've got me there. Well, that's probably it then. Unless you are specifically trying to do straight leg deadlifts...don't look like this: http://www.planetkc.com/exrx/WeightExercises/Hamstrings/BBStrBackStrLegDeadlift.html Try to look more like this: http://www.planetkc.com/exrx/WeightExercises/GluteusMaximus/BBDeadlift.html Go back and forth between the two and remember the differences. While you are there check this section on lower back exercises and recuperation... http://www.planetkc.com/exrx/WeightTraining/LowBack.html >Could part of the problem simply be my >height? (I'm 6'4") Even though I'm VERY close to the bar, it's hard not to bend >a lot at the waist. Would depend more on you individual proportions- Torso length, arm length, leg length...than overall height. See Krista's dork to diva section on DL's: She's using sumo form in the pics which you can try...but it is likely that you can get regular style to work. http://www.stumptuous.com/baddl.html Armed with that info you should have enough to smooth things out. >>5) You can put the pins on the cage outside pointing towards you. Put >>it low but not too low. You can now do partial pulls until you get >>flexible enough to pull from the floor. > >Partials....OK, I may try that.... Read the stuff above and see if anything clicks...not that you won't find partials helpful...but you may avoid getting the form down. >I suspect you're right, although I tried not to...I guess this thing takes a >while to get the "feel" of....but I sure don't want to "feel" what I've been >feelin'..... A long while...and things change a tad as you get stronger in other areas...have patience. >Anyway, thanks for taking the time for such a useful reply!!! No prob. Hope it helps some. I know what it's like to have a painful lower back...that is why I started going to the gym. I just wanted to do back extensions. Then I started reading this group. I hope to do a PL meet sometime inside the next year. ;) Enjoy. Dean