DEADLIFTS Plain and Simple Instructions ------------------------------ From: TMccull230@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 Subject: Re: Deadlift Form >Could someone give me pointers on how to do deadlifts correctly, or what I could >do to eliminate error(s). Raza Rahman : The shin problems you are having is not uncommon. Solution: do not do touch-n-go repetitions with the deadlift. Each time you do a rep, set the bar down with control and pull the bar back into correct position. Make sure your form is correct before you start the next rep. Also make sure the bar is next to if not touching the shins. If the bar is away from the shins (as it no doubt will be with touch-n-go reps), when you pull the next rep, you will pull the bar into your shins on the way up. I have also enclosed a description of the correct deadlift form as well as some tips. The Stance There are two types of deadlift stances being used today: the conventional style and the sumo style. With the conventional style the lifter takes a stance about shoulder's width and the arm will hang straight outside the knees. This stance utilizes more of the quads and low back...so keep those hips down and that back straight. The second stance is sumo. Sumo stance is a position any where from past shoulder's width to a more extreme wide stance. Of course the arms will hang inside the knees. as you can see, the sumo stance gets the lifter a little closer to the floor so the bar actually has less distance to travel. Also the lifter is starting in more of a half squat position. As we all know you can half squat much more than full squat. With this stance more of the stress is taken off the low back and put on the hips and glutes. Which stance is the best...well world records have been set by lifters using both stances. This subject could be discussed to the end of time, so my suggestion is to try both styles and see which is the best for your body type. Feet and Shin Position. Feet should point out to a 45 degree angle. The shins should be two to three inches from the bar and then when you actually bend down, the shins will touch the bar. Most of the weight will be on the heels of the feet just like the squat. During ascent the bar will travel as close to the leg and shins as possible. Hand Position With either stance a reverse grip should be used. That is with one hand supinated and the other pronated. This will help keep the bar in your hand. Do not use a hook grip...hold the bar high up on the palm to compensate for any roll of the bar when pulling the weight up. The grip should start with the index finger and the little finger bordering the knurling in the middle of the bar. If you are having trouble with the weight twisting the body to one side or banging the shins, try moving the opposite hand in to the middle just slightly to compensate. Head Placement and Where To Look Just like the form for squats, the head should be up, the hips down, and the back flat. I can't over emphasize the importance of this bit of advice, simply because it will help the lifter avoid low back injuries. By keeping the hips down, the stress is taken off the low back and put on the more powerful quadriceps. Keeping the eyes and head up, aids in keeping the spine in proper position. The Belt The belt is utilized to maintain lumbar integrity through ascent and descent. Get a belt that is as wide in the front as in the back. The lifting belt should be worn as low as possible. It is not necessary to have it super tight, but just snug. This will enable the abdominal muscles to maintain adequate pressure to keep the spine in proper position. A Word On Training There is no place for touch and go repetitions when doing the deadlift. If you are going to do reps, treat each rep as a single. Slowly set the bar to the floor, reset, and pull again. Another word of warning, this is a very safe mass building exercise when done in correct form. Remember....keep the head and eyes up, the shoulders back, the back flat, and the hips down. Psyche your self up really well, let out a mighty yell and pull like crazy! Tom McCullough MS RD CSCS MSS Strength and Conditioning Coach Sport Nutrition Consultant Houston, TX ------------------------------ Net Dialogue From: Richard Fahey Newsgroups: misc.fitness,rec.sport.triathlon,rec.fitness Subject: Re: Info request re: DEADLIFTS Date: 17 Mar 1994 17:27:44 GMT In article <2ma29i$9na@panix2.panix.com> Paul Gatker, paul@panix.com writes: >perpindicular to the ground as I lift. Someone else said I should try >leaving the bar behind my feet, and lift it up this way. This seemed a bit >too advanced a maneuver for me at this point. (He called these hack lifts?) > Ken Leistner, who writes for Powerlifting USA, does not recommend doing hack lifts. While it is often possible to lift more weight this way than conventional deadlifts, they supposedly put a lot of stress on your knees. Deadlifting necessarily involves the back muscles a lot. There is also a variation, "Stiff-legged deadlifts", where the contribution of the legs to the lift is minimized (don't lock the legs out straight, though - keep the a little bent, but stiff). Most sources on deadlift form say not to round the back, nor hyperextend it (this often happens at the top of the lift). This might be the source of confusion on the style to use - keeping the back straight and keeping it upright are two different things. Keep the back straight, flexing at the hips to angle the back. Keep your head up and eyes looking forward. Breath out during the pull. Don't jerk the weight from the floor, or bounce it off the floor between reps. If you lift the weight standing on a small platform, the weight can be lowered to "floor level" without actually touching the floor. Form is everything in this lift, as a sloppy style can easily lead to back injuries. This is not a lift to do if you are at all prone to any kind of back problems. Richard From: krw@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (keith.r.smith) Subject: Re: Lats: A four-letter word. HELP! Date: Thu, 7 Apr 1994 21:44:03 GMT In article <9404061840.AA49074@hookup.net> joec@hookup.net (Joe Clark) writes: >Hiyez. This is a question about lats. > >Lats are the muscles I have no apparent evidence of being born with. >All right, I exaggerate. I spent a few years doing lat-pulls badly, >then a couple of years doing them properly, and had few gains. In the >course of diagnosing a shoulder injury, a physiotherapist more or less >told me I had nothin' back there (as did my family doctor when I was ~13). >A neurologist specializing in muscle disorders (ALS, muscular dystrophy, >and the like) examined me and determined that I had neither of those >conditions (or anything comparable) and that my small lats, rhomboids, >&c were Just the Way I Was. He also told me that there would be no harm >in doing back exercises and that there was no reason I could not improve. > >So... bearing in mind that I already go to the gym four times a week and >find it frustrating and tedious at times, WHAT EXERCISES DO I DO? >I love hearing the imaginative names some exercises have (flye, >good-morning, and my personal fave, sissy squats), but if you're >going to mention an exercise by name, please also give a one-sentence >explanation of how to do it! Hi Joe! First off, if your training is frustrating and tedious at times, then maybe you need a break. Take a week to 10 days off from anything that even _smells_ like training. Eat well, sleep well, and recharge your batteries. When you come back, spend at least 6 weeks doing nothing but light pump-n-burn work, 30-40 reps/set, twice weekly. Don't even _think_ about any "big iron" yet. After this refresher period, start doing deadlifts. Do these absolutely no more than once per week! Go heavy. If you are doing them right, then you will need at least a week to fully recover. I will describe the movement later in this message. Spend about four weeks of d/l workouts working up to your current 5-rep max, then reduce the weight by 10%. Plan on increasing your training poundage by 5 pounds, every other d/l session, and no more. Don't be in a hurry, as you will get plenty strong soon enough by doing this. After 6 months total, test your 5-rep-max again. Take a week off, then come back as before with the light stuff. When you get back to d/l time again, start out with only 80% of your last 5-rep-max and add weight every-other-session as before. The deadlift is pretty much of a "whole-body" strengthening exercise. As you will be using just about "every muscle you got" in this effort, you can expect to be moving some significant weight before too long. I am talking about weight measured in multiples of your own bodyweight. Performance of deadlift. Stand over the bar. Stoop down and grasp the bar with an over-n-under shoulder-width grip. Keep your chest out, your butt down, your head erect, and keep your heels firmly planted on the floor. Stand up. If your back curls up, then you are using too much weight (and you could hurt yourself...... badly). Don't be in a hurry to use the "macho" poundages.... you will get there soon enough :-). If you have access to a power rack, then use it. Set the "catcher-bars" to about 3/4 of knee height. Keith R From: rhb@csn.org (Richard Boyd) Subject: Re: I need help with Deadlifts Date: Sat, 3 Sep 1994 14:25:45 GMT Carey Cox (ccox@csc.mc.edu) wrote: : Can anyone tell me how to do deadlifts so that I won't bang up my : knees and shins? I have long legs and they really get in the way. Is : there another way of doing deadlifts for those of us with long legs--or am : I doing the exercise completely wrong? Thanks in advance. >From personal experience with deadlifts, I've found when this happens to me, it's because my form is getting sloppy. I'm 6 ft., and have long legs and arms. And when I start bumpimg my shins during the deadlift, it is because I'm starting the lift with my back, instead of my upper legs and butt. Starting the lift with the legs, naturally straightens them, and gets them out of the way as the bar comes up. Proper deadlift form is to start bent kneed, then begin the lift by flexing the upper leg area ( quads, leg biceps, glutes ). Continue through mid-lift with the primary mover being the glutes. And then about three quarters into it, bring in the lower back. Finish off with a nice flex of the upper back and traps to stand tall and proud. Some deadlift etiquette.... Be sure to let out a mighty yell at the end, so everybody in the gym will look over and marvel at your prodigous strength. Also don't drop the bar after your last rep, but make sure it makes a good hard thud and shakes the building a little. rhb @:-{)= From: miked30786@aol.com (MikeD30786) Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Re: I need help with Deadlifts Date: 4 Sep 1994 11:37:02 -0400 More deadlift tips: 1. Squeeze your butt while you're doing them. You'll feel it more in that area -- and you'll feel it more the next morning, which means it's working. 2. To achieve proper form, try sticking out your butt a bit when you're doing the exercise. I've found that that puts more stress on the glutes and the hamstrings, and away from the lower back. I've never liked deadlifts for lower back strengthening (too much weight's involved for my taste; the potential to screw something up is too high) -- try hyperextensions instead. - Mike. From: drbw@mail.che.utexas.edu (David R. B. Walker) Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Re: stiff-legged deadlifts Date: 12 Sep 1994 18:37:20 GMT In article <351vaf$fuv@news.cloud9.net>, asalo@cloud9.net (Anna Salo) wrote: > Whenever I do stiff-legged deadlifts, I feel fine while I'm doing them, > but a few minutes afterward my legs feel like jello for the rest of the > day. For the next few days my hamstrings feel unbelievably tight, no matter > how much I stretch them out before and after. No other exercises or > freeweights cause this reaction, I usually just get normal muscle fatigue. > > Any ideas on what might cause this? > > anna Anna: Are you doing your stiff-legged deadlifts with your legs locked at the knee? I found my ligaments and tendons around the knee get quite irritated when I did stiff legged deadlifts with my knees locked in a vertical position. Now I do stiffs with the knees bent, but the legs essentially steady. That is, although the knees are bent, the stay positioned at the same angle throughout the range of motion. As for the tightness, stiffs will stretch the hamstrings consdierably. The first time I did them, I got through the set fine, but was sore before I left the weight room. Do them slowly so you can feel the stretch. I have read and tried that the bar should only reach the level of the knees if you are keeps your back arched tight, rather than allowing you back to round to reach your toes. Do the stiffs slowly and carefully with the proper form. Otherwise, its easy to overdo it; moreso with stiffs than others I have found. -- David Walker Dept. of Chemical Engineering, UT-Austin drbw@mail.che.utexas.edu In article <1992Jan25.061007.13141@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, djbg8364@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (David J Beatty) writes: > vinlai@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (vincent.lai) writes: > >I'm not sure if my deadlift form is correct, mainly because the bar > >keeps hitting my knees coming up and down. I would rest my heels on a > >block of wood with limited success. Anybody else run into problems > >like this? > I've always tried to do deadlifts in such a way that the bar is in > contact with my legs throughout the lift. This prevents me from > leaning out from the waist and overstressing my lower back. So I > start the lift with the bar resting against my shins, and then drive > with my legs, keeping the bar close to my lower leg, knee and finally > the thigh. Now I'm not scraping hard on my legs, I just use them as a > guide to help me keep good form throughout the lift. I think > guide to help me keep good form throughout the lift. I think Hitting your knees with the bar during a deadlift indicates that you are lifting with your back and shoulders too early in during the movement. Not only does this hurt your knees, it may cause damage to your lower back, and will also limit your Max lift. The correct way to lift is: 1. Start with the bar against shins, back flat, and a slight stretch should be felt in the shoulders ( to stop you from pulling with your arms ). 2. Drive the hips upwards with legs ( as in a squat ) while the angle between shoulders, hips and spine stays the same as measured to the horizontal. 3. Once the bar has cleared the knees, then the hips drive forward, pushing chest up, shoulders back. > Hey, does anyone out there have a deadlift routine that's worked > particularly well for them? I've been doing mainly low reps, but I > recently have been doing a few sets of 10-12, and it seemed to cause a > lot more soreness the next day. What kinds of reps/sets do all you > deadlifters do? To increase Max strength in the deadlift, try this programme: Deadlift 3-4 times a week after warm ups. Use the same weight during the four weeks: Week 1 4 sets of 3 reps Use the same weight during the four weeks: Week 1 4 sets of 3 reps Week 2 3 sets of 4 reps Week 3 2 sets of 5 reps Week 4 1 set of 5 reps ( easy week ) Then repeat these four weeks with a heavier weight ( 5-10 kg ) increase. To increase muscle mass with the deadlift, do 3 sets of 5 reps in a pyramid ( 3rd set heaviest ), then 1 set of 10 reps. Do this 3 times a week and on the 1st and 3rd workout of the week do the set of 10 reps to FULL FAILURE, ie you could not lift the bar off the floor even if your life depended on it. Then eat a lots and grow! -Bertil on behalf of Craig Pickett Subject: Re: Deadlifts (was Re: What Are Good Mornings?) Date: 20 Aug 1993 10:57:53 -0500 glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson) writes: >In article <2507v2$aoc@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>, sfjr@wam.umd.edu (Steve Russell ) writes: >|> Like I said, I agree. I had back problems that just vanished >|> when I did deadlifts carefully, but I think Good Mornings are >|> just a dangerous exercise. Its just to easy to overload and >|> it has excellent leverage for damaging a spine. >I've been doing hyperextensions for years, sometimes >with a 25-lb weight. I just started doing deadlifts >and I'm not sure of exactly how to do them - roll up >the back or straighten it and then lift from the lower >back? Same question for the way down. I also just started deadlifts and I'll give you the advice a friend of mine, who is a powerlifter, gave me. After you have your stance and grip, there are basically two ideas to follow. One, rather than lifting the weight up who is a powerlifter, gave me. After you have your stance and grip, there are basically two ideas to follow. One, rather than lifting the weight up think of it as shoving your feet through the floor. Two, don't bend at the waist, thrust out with the hips. These are "feel" ideas obviously, as you can not put your feet through the floor (hopefully your gym is stronger than that :-)) and some bending at the waist does occur. >What should I be careful to *avoid*? Not using your back to lower the weight, use your legs as much as possible. More injuries occur when lowering then weight than lifting it. So says my friend. Patrick From: krw@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (keith.r.smith) Subject: Re: Deadlifts Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 17:32:05 GMT In article <2bc01a$dq4@amhux3.amherst.edu> mbfeld@unix.amherst.edu (A waste of b andwidth originating) writes: >I want to do deadlifts, but the bar keeps bumping into my knees... >Why does it do that? Or rather, how could it possibly not do that? >I want to do deadlifts, but the bar keeps bumping into my knees... >Why does it do that? Or rather, how could it possibly not do that? > >Marlon > Hi Marlon! It could be the way that you are built, or it could be your form. Do you keep your butt down and your back flat? If this doesn't work, then you might try doing the movement in a power rack, or on some other device that will support the bar high enough from the floor so that you don't bump your knees, or use big enough plate to achieve the same effect. Keith R <<<< Mad Cross-Trainer and Cycling Zealot >>>> From: an25653@anon.penet.fi Reply-To: an25653@anon.penet.fi Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 19:06:19 UTC Subject: Re: ??'s about Dead Lifts >From garry Mon Nov 7 08:40:35 1994 Date: Mon, 7 Nov 94 08:40:34 PST From: garry (Garry Holmen) To: garry@mda.ca Subject: Re: ??'s about Dead Lifts Newsgroups: misc.fitness Organization: MacDonald Dettwiler, 13800 Commerce Parkway, Richmond, BC, Canada V6V 2J3 Cc: In article you write: >Hi - First, my apologies for the subject of this post. There have been >several posts regarding Dead Lifts recently, and my newsreader won't let me >see them, so I'm sorry for the repetition. I tried Dead Lifts yesterday, >but I only did 8 at around 120lbs., because I'd never tried them before. >Well I *loved* them - I felt muscles in my back and neck I didn't know I >had. BTW, I didn't hurt my back, this was definitely the muscles. Anyway, >my questions are these: 1. Am I supposed to do this exercise similar to >other types -- like, 3 sets of 8 - 12 reps? 2. I know this varies, but >what weight is appropriate...enough that I struggle for the last few reps, >or something less (I'm using wraps also)? Thanks for any help. You know >how it is when you find a new exercise. :-) Hi Linda, Aren't deadlifts great? They are the best back exercise that you can do (with a healthy back). Just to answer your questions: 1) Yes do them in the same manner as your other exercises and make sure you do a good warmup on your back before doing them. I perform 2 warmup sets before I even attempt my first set. Watch your back... keep that lumbar arch in there. 2) The weight varies depending on the type of deadlift you are doing. One can do heavier bent-legged deads than straight legged deads just because your legs are brought into play. My best piece of advice is to gradually increase the weight... start with a weight you feel comfortable with and work on the form and then slowly increase the weight. This will avoid the big problem with deads... people who go heavy with poor form. Using wraps will take the load off of your forearms and let you concentrate on your back more. I'm not a big wraps fan but if you have to worry more about your grip than feeling the exercise in your back I'ld suggest using them in 2 of your 3 sets. Just don't get dependent upon them. I see too many people relying on them for everything (from curls to chins and rows). Garry Holmen garry@mda.ca PS: I don't feel deadlifts in my neck... where were you feeling them? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin@anon.penet.fi. From: Paul Bearer Subject: Re: Deadlifts and back rounding ? Originator: roland@skule.ecf Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 16:39:41 GMT In article , William A. Piche wrote: >Doing deadlifts for more than 10 reps is ludicrous in my opinion. I have >found too over the years that the more reps you do the more the tendency >to not use good form. I would not recommend deadlifting more than once >a week and highly recommend deadlifing once every 2 weeks. After 10 years >of deadlifing, switching to once every two weeks enabled me to add about >another 40 lbs to my best. > The voice of experience. Listen carefully aspiring powerlifters! As I said you will get different opinions on this, which is always the case. Bill's got over 15 years experience in powerlifting, and him not speak with forked tongue. What Bill said about using the deadlift infrequently makes alot of sense to me. It's a tough lift, that takes alot out of you in terms of recovery. >Side Note: Funny thing Paul, but I have been reading Leistner for 15 years >in PLUSA and I never remember him recommending 20 reps sets as the mainstay?? Hmmm, maybe this is a recent thing? Late 80s articles by Leistner seem to suggest this. Here's the rationale I have in an article: It has been suggested by Dr. Leistner and others that when squatting, leg pressing, or deadlifting use higher reps 15-20, or higher. Some critics of this will say that reps in this range are for endurance work, not strength work. However, most trainees will probably be working with at least 80% of their 1RM which is equal to or greater as the recommended threshold to stimulate strength by several authors. I *think* what Leistner is referring to, is that if you aren't a competitive lifter, higher reps should be used as the mainstay. And lower reps, must be used if your a competitor. Which seems to make sense to me. As far as rep speed goes, as far as I know, Leistner does *not* recommend the "2 up, 4 down" for high rep sets, or for any sets for that matter. He stresses smooth, controlled reps, 1-2 up, 1-2 down, but nothing slower than that. I think that answers another question someone had about doing "high rep" squats, like the 20 rep breathing squat. Of course this issue about "how slow" has caused the "holy war" between Leistner and Darden, who arrogantly said to a large group of people that Leistner trains his trainees with a rep speed "too fast". Off-topic, sorry. I just would never say that in front of Leistner if I wanted to see my next birthday. One of the things you gather here, I see, is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. What I mean is, doing high rep lower body work may work great for you, or it might not. As you can see from Bill's experience I think he is saying that this is in his opinion not the way to go. you have to decide for yourself, and experiment, IMHO. That's the only way your really going to find out "what works best for you". People can only give you general principles, and that's it. P. > >-- >Bill Piche (bapiche@pobox.cca.rockwell.com) From: bodysurf@netcom.com (Tim) Subject: Re: Questions about deadlifts. Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 23:24:39 GMT In article <3b829b$ld1@oac4.hsc.uth.tmc.edu>, sph1290@utsph.sph.uth.tmc.edu (NAME "Paul A. Fearn") wrote: > Does anyone have suggestions for adding deadlifts to my workout. I am not sure > about the correct form and the best strategy (sets/reps/weight/days per week). I would not recommend deadlifting more than once every two weeks. After warmups, I would keep reps between 5-8 and use very heavy weight with good form. > Should your palms be facing opposite directions when you grip the bar? Yes, and alternate positions each set. For example: Set #1 -- Left arm pronated grip, Right arm supinated grip; set #2 -- Left arm supinated grip, Right arm pronated grip. > Should feet be close, shoulder width, or farther apart? For "standard" deadlifts, a little narrower than shoulder width so that your grip is outside your stance. For "sumo" deadlifts, a wide stance with the toes pointed slightly out is proper. Most likely, you will be performing standard deadlifts. > How much should you bend your knees? As much as you are able to comfortably. You should initially lift off the bar using your leg strength primarily and then finish off with your back strength. > How safe is this exercise? Safe, provided you use good form and do not perform it often with heavy weights. If performed with improper form and with heavy weights, it is one of the most dangerous exercizes that one can perform. So do it right! Lates! ---------------------------------- Tim "Finger" for PGP v2.6.2 Public Key From: ronbo@arnold.ndhm.gtegsc.com (Ron Cecchini) Subject: Re: Powerlifting: sumo v. conventional deads Date: 23 Jan 1995 18:59:22 GMT In article <3ft9sq$89l@news.iastate.edu>, kulak@glacier.eai.com (Kevin Kulak) writes: > Does anyone out there have any opinions on 'sumo' style deadlifting > verses 'conventional' style deads? Well, Barry or Bill would know more about this than me. And I'm not sure what in particular you're asking for when you say "opinions". "sumo" style (which I also call "powerlifting style") deads are done with the feet placed relatively wide and the toes pointed out. The grip, then, is done with the arms placed inside the legs. While deads work just about everything, the major stress is placed on the inner thighs (adductors), hips and butt. Sure, the lower back is of course worked, but because of the wide stance and relatively short distance that the bar has to travel, the stress on the lower back is significantly lower with this stance than with the "bodybuilding style". My friend Bob uses a very wide stance (which he admits helps make the lift easier - but it's all legal!) His shins are lined up with the outside grooves on a standard Olympic bar. [ I mentioned he did 555x3 this way, right? ] I use what I call the "bodybuilding style". I guess that's what you mean by "conventional". In this stance, my feet are about 8-10 inches apart and my toes are pointing nearly straight ahead. My hands are placed just outside my thighs. I won't go into execution technique. Anyway, with this stance, alot of the stress is shifted to the lower back. It's not *all* lower back (otherwise you have bad technique!), but you use your lower back much more this way than with the sumo way. You also bang the hell out of your shins. Even with my good form [ thank you, thank you - Bob said I had clean form, so it must be true ], I still can't avoid ripping nice bloody gashes into my shins. I've just accepted it. [ and I'm looking at it as an investment for when I move into the world of martial arts films and they make me kick trees and stuff. yeah, ok Ron - wake up... ] My best pull so far, using this stance, is 435x5. -- Ron Cecchini - ronbo@arnold.ndhm.gtegsc.com Discipline - Desire - Determination - Dedication From: mikecoy@emcnext2.tamu.edu (Mike) Subject: Re: Powerlifting: sumo v. conventional deads Date: 24 Jan 1995 20:15:24 GMT In article <3ft9sq$89l@news.iastate.edu> kulak@glacier.eai.com (Kevin Kulak) writes: > Does anyone out there have any opinions on 'sumo' style deadlifting > verses 'conventional' style deads? I use the sumo style in competition because I'm stronger that way, i.e. I have strong hips, butt and legs, but I've found that incorporating conventional deadlifts into training helps my lift. The sumo DL uses less lower back because, if you're flexible, your back is already 98% upright when you start and more hips, butt and legs. The conventional style uses less legs (they are straighter at the start) and more back. So I train the DL using sumo style in a pyramid, and then go down the pyramid using the conventional style. My legs are already fried and now my back gets finished. I've found that if I don't do conventional DLs, my back will become the weak link and prevent me from finishing my lift. I will break from the floor, and stall just above the knees. I've had very good results training this way. Hope this helps. Mike From: desilets@media-lab.media.mit.edu (Mark Desilets) Subject: Re: Deadlifts & bloody shins (was Powerlifting) Date: 28 Jan 1995 00:17:03 GMT In article <3g4our$asa@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, griffin@u.washington.edu (Thomas Griffin) writes: |> In article <3g0uaa$f1f@number6.ndhm.gtegsc.com>, |> Ron Cecchini wrote: |> [snip]> |> > [deletia...] |> > |> >You also bang the hell out of your shins. Even with my good form |> >[ thank you, thank you - Bob said I had clean form, so it must be true ], |> >I still can't avoid ripping nice bloody gashes into my shins. I've just |> >accepted it. |> |> I used to bang up my shins but then read some misc.fitness |> "netwisdom" that this was bad form. So I've been trying |> to keep them blood-free, but it has been a struggle and |> feels awkward. Does anyone else want to weight in pro or con |> on the bloody shins issue? |> |> Oh yeah, has anyone ever done deadlifts with shin guards? |> I had severe problems with my shins whenever I got heavier than 300-325 range. I still have scarred shins from this. I tried hocky shin guards, but they aren't smooth enough as the bar gets caught on the lip of the guard. I tried wrapping with ace bandage, and wrapping with long pants overl top, but neither kept the seal integrity of my skin. Finally I decided to back off on my weight and work on form. I had been lifting 375-380 with dreams of that fourth plate dancing in my head. I droped back to 275 and really worked on getting more back into the lift earlier. Using smooth controlled form *and more back* I was able to work back to my present 335-340 with unbloodied shins. Will I make 405 without staining my pants? (the shins you pervert!) I dunno. But I am lifting heavier than I had been with good form and no bloody shins. When I teach deadlift form, I emphasize keeping a fairly vertical back and driving the legs through the floor. For me, however, this is a recipe for bloody shins. If I were competing (which from my numbers, you see I am not!) I would sacrifice a bit o' shin for the lift. As I am lifting for fitness, strength and personal satisfaction, I will work with my modified form. Mark From: dcapwell@bev.net (dcapwell) Subject: Re: Deadlifts & bloody shins (was Powerlifting) Date: 29 Jan 1995 00:55:51 GMT In article <3g4our$asa@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, griffin@u.washington.edu (Thomas Griffin) says: >Oh yeah, has anyone ever done deadlifts with shin guards? > If the bar doesn't rub against your shins somewhat, then you're pulling with the bar away from your body (and putting a great deal of stress on your back). Baby powder may reduce the friction of the bar rubbing on your shins. If you use conventional deadlift technique, you may want to position yourself so the knurled part of the bar is not touching your shins. Alot of really good power- lifters get their shins mangled, though. Dave From: c3po@ix.netcom.com (Richard Boyd) Subject: Re: Deadlifts & bloody shins (was Powerlifting) Date: 3 Feb 1995 15:14:35 GMT In <3gopvg$bhm@nntpd2.cxo.dec.com> kolbe@resolv.cxo.dec.com (The Goddess in Chains) writes: > > >OK, idiot question time. I'm doing low weight deadlifts with the curly bar. Is >that OK? I thought it would allow me to keep the bar close yet not bump my >shins. liesl > It's your form, not your equipment. The cambered curling bar ( curly bar? ) is for doing bicep curls, and other arm exercises, not deadlifts. I would imagine you look pretty stupid doing deadlifts with this bar. You are banging your shins because your form is incorrect. You are most likely starting the lift with you back, which will pull the bar into your shins before they have time to get out of the way. Correct deadlift form is to start with knees bent, hands gripping the "straight" bar ( one hand over, the other hand under so the bar doesn't roll out of your grip ). Begin the lift with your upper legs ( glutes, hams, quads ). This will cause your legs to naturally unbend and get out of the way. Then about half way through the lift bring the lower back, and abs into the lift. Finish off with upper back and traps, by standing straight and tall. Don't drop the weight, until the last rep, which you will also want to finish off with a loud bellow. This will shake the weight room and impress the geeks with your prodigous strength :-) . I've been doing deadlifts for thirty years now ( I'm 46 ). My current max is in the 400 lb. area, I've had 600 lb. lifts in the past ( when I was competing ). Not all that strong ( never did steroids, however ), but I do know a little bit about this lift. rhb From: Deadlift@umich.edu (Mr.Deadlift) Subject: Re: straight-legged dead lift Date: 6 Aug 1995 21:20:28 GMT In article <403208$iau@news.doit.wisc.edu>, Ken Fechner wrote: > I am unfamiliar with the straight-legged dead lift. First of all, how > is it performed? What is good technique for this excercise? What muscle > groups does it focus on? And will it hurt my back? 1&2. It is performed on a platform, either a block or my gym has a wooden stationary platform that is specifically made for this exercise. First, grip a barbell with a grip that feels good to you ( I prefer a fairly wide grip). You can either grip it with your hands supinated or pronated but I prefer to have my palms facing my thighs. Also, it is not called the STRAIGHT-LEGGED DEADLIFT, it is the STIFF-LEGGED DEADLIFT. That is a big difference. You should maintain the bend (or lack there of) in your legs throughout the entire range of motion. Most people, including me, prefer to have a slight bend in the knees. Bend down with the barbell as far as you can (that is why this exercise is performed on a platform) and you get a good (not painfull) stretch in the hamstrings. I let the barbell barely touch the top of my toes. Also, do not bend your arms in the movement. Your arms are just hooks for the weight. Slowly raise the weight and finish the exercise by squeezing your glutes and pulling your shoulders back. 3. Well, it works many muscle groups, but the main ones are the hamstrings,glutes,and the lower back. I personally think that this is the best exercise that you can do to improve the appearance (and size of hamstrings) of hamstrings and glutes. Most people I know include the stiff-legged Deadlift in their Hamstring workout, and I do that right after my back so it works out better in my weekly schedule. There, is one more point that I think that I should make. Some people, including me, do not "feel" hamstring movements (especially this one because of the lack of the hamstring squeezing movement i.e. the leg curl) that well. When I do biceps for instance, I can feel the biceps really working. But, when I do stiff-legged deadlifts I don't really feel them working. I have never gotten sore from leg curls. But, when I use heavy weight (in strict form of course), my hams are always sore in the morning. That is how I know that they were worked intensely. 4. Exercises are created to strengthen your muscles, not hurt and injure them. If done correctly, stiff-legged deadlifts should strengthen your lower back and not hurt it. Peace, Tom Goodwin (A.K.A Mr. Deadlift) University of Michigan Student tmg@umich.edu From: Deadlift@umich.edu (Mr.Deadlift) Subject: Re: Deadlifts vs SL Deadlifts Date: 9 Aug 1995 13:29:41 GMT In article , Simon Mak wrote: > Hi, > > I have yet to do any kind of real bak workouts except the lat > pulldown. Could someone post a simple guideline to deadlifting and using > the back machine where I would seem like I'm rowing, but I'm standing up? > I plan to do shoulders and back today, so someone please reply.... > > > Thanks, > > Simon Mak Sorry Simon, but I don't really understand about the rowing maching while standing up thing, but I can discuss the Deadlift. 1. FORM Grip the bar with your hand (arms) wider than your legs which should be at about shoulder width apart. It is up to you on what type of grip you want. There is the pronated,supinated, and alternating. The alternating is where one palm faces you and the other faces away. I prefer this grip because I seem to get a better grip on the barbell this way. Also, if your grip is not strong enough you may need to use wrist starps. To lift the weight up you must explode from the bottom position. Make sure that your legs are bent and that you just don't move only the back. I usually think to myself "to get under the weight". That helps me visualize bending the legs more and exploding with the legs. Keep the barbell along your shins and thighs all the way up. Do not let the barbell stray away >from your body. Bring the weight up until you are fully upright and finish the movement by pulling the shoulders back and contracting the back. Your arms should not bend in this movement, except maybe near the very end when you pull the weight back (mine do). When you do the next reps let the barbell barely touch the floor but do not rest at the bottom of the movement. 2. I personally do 3-4 sets of standard Deadlifts. IT goes something like this: 1 set 4-7 reps , 2 set 1 max rep, 3 set 5-8 reps, 4 set 5-8 reps I perform this exercise twice per week. Every week or so I usually go up in either reps or weight. This is a very important point. You MUST always try to lift heavier from workout to workout (progressive overload). peace, Tom Goodwin (A.K.A Mr. Deadlift) University of Michigan Student tmg@umich.edu From: hoffman@hp2.wpic.pitt.edu (Timothy Hoffman) Subject: Re: deadlifts? Date: 16 Aug 1995 17:14:02 GMT Henrik Svedlund (epkhse@epk.ericsson.se) wrote: > Jon McCulloch asked: > >Would someone kindly explain to me how to do a deadlift? > > > >I'm a great fan of squats, but the deadlift sounds like a nice change. > > > >Thanks, More advice on deads. > The Famous Deadlift !!! > *) You take an olympic bar and load it up with a > "sufficient" weight. > *) You place the bar on the floor (this can be done > before you place the weights on the bar). > *) Stand 4 - 6 inches from the bar. Feet slightly closer > than shoulder-width. > *) "Sit down" and grab the bar, similar to a squat. Your grip > should be about shoulder-wide. > *) Be sure to *ARCH* your back. > *) Look up (this helps in arching your back) and rise. > *) Try to lift with back and legs at the same time. > NOT legs first, back last. > *) Don't push your hips forward too much. > *) At the highest point of the lift, pull your shoulders back. > *) Take about two seconds to set the weight down. > *) Be sure to *ARCH* your back. > Do it over and over again. > Keep pumpin' > / Henrik More advice on deadlifts (advice submitted in honor of Jerry Garcia) 1) use alternating grip 2) use a squat pad (one of those velcro cylinder pads) on the bar so you can glide it up your shins. One difficult with squsts is that you can never seen to get the bar far enough under you. This will at least let you get it as close to your shins as possible without roughing up your shins. This really helps me forget about anticipating any shin discomfort. 3) Don't explode out of the hole. Like squeezing a trigger. Pull a little then a little more. You almost should not know when it's gonna leave the floor. The best deadlifters concur on this point 4) You MUST start out light and go for moderate-hi reps around 20 for a good while to get broken in to this thing. 5) KEEP your head up. Lead with your chin. If your lower back starts getting sore then you are not doing it right or you are not broken in to the weights you are attempting.yopu have to bend down at the knees and try to keep your butt tucked in a little as you start to rise. Don't let it start sticking out casue then your lifting with your lower back and youll be sorry. I do deads and squats every week (on different days). After a few months of break in I am now doing 5 sets of 6-8. where the first 2 sets are warm up. Tim Hoffman (formerly the HIT man..now on the BRAWN wagon) From: Deadlift@umich.edu (Mr.Deadlift) Subject: Re: straight-legged dead lift Date: 17 Aug 1995 15:23:48 GMT In article <40um7c$eq2@gondor.sdsu.edu>, hargis@ucssun1.sdsu.edu (hargis) wrote: > Don Matthews (don@newshost.li.net) wrote: > : I use to do stiff legged deadlifts too until both my chiropractor and > : personal trainer told me it was bad for the lower back. > : Just a thought.... > > I've just recently started doing stright legged dead lifts. > I bend from the hip, keeping my back as straight as possible, and > lower the bar to right above my toes(using a dead lift rack). > I was also wondering if it was bad for my back and if there was any > problem with the form I'm using. > Its currently the day after my first attempts at stright legged dead lifts > and my hamstrings are sore for the first time ever. I'd previously been > using the hamstring curl machine for hams. First of all, I think that STRAIGHT legged deadlifts can be be bad for the back and don't work the hamstrings that well. The exercise that I think you are talking about is STIFF-legged deadlifts. Keep the legs slightly bent but keep the bend throughout the exercise. I had about the same experience with my hams. I never got sore from hamstring curls, but I was pretty sore the day after I did stiff-legged deadlifts. Peace, Tom Goodwin (A.K.A Mr. Deadlift) University of Michigan Student tmg@umich.edu From: jstream@girch1.med.uth.tmc.edu (Rifle River) Subject: Re: Deadlifting advice Date: 16 Oct 1995 17:59:42 GMT In article <79192-813694291@mindlink.bc.ca>, Ron_Langman@mindlink.bc.ca (Ron Langman) wrote: > deadlift. It says "Purpose of the exercise: To work the lower back." > However, on the bottom of page 351, he is warning of the danger of starting > the movement with the back bent forward. "This is not only dangerous, but > it turns the exercise into a lower back movement, which is not what it is > supposed to be." I'm sure this statement is confusing to only me, but, I'll > admit it....I'm confused!!! Can anyone out there help me? If you're not > moving the lower back, how can you work the muscle? The best advice I ever got on doing deadlifts was to keep your butt under the movement. Huh? you say. When beginning the movement keep you butt low, use your legs to do the first half (or so) of the range of motion. Only after your legs are near lockout should your back then work to finish out the movement. This is why I consider dead lifts a leg and back movement. You work your legs in the first half and your lower back (erector spinae, lower latissimus dorsi) get worked in the upper half of the movement. > book, he describes Straight-Leg Deadlifts. "Purpose of the Exercise: To > work the leg biceps." You don't bend your leg here. You bend from the > waist. This would seem to me ( a TOTAL novice ) to work the lower back more > than the Classic deadlift. Bingo! Straight leg deadlifts will really put some hurt on your lower back, it is definitely a lower back movement. However, done properly nothing else makes my hamstrings as sore as stiff leg deadlifts. Go easy on the weight until you get comfortable with the movement because you will definitely will feel it the next day. > The Classic Deadlift, on the other hand, has you > bending at the knees and driving the weight up with the legs. Wouldn't this > work the legs and glutes more than the back? Yes, classic deadlifts are a major leg movement (especially done sumo style). However, nothing else makes my lower lats as sore as classic deadlifts. You've pointed out very well the nature of compound exercises - they don't work muscles in isolation. You have a very good understanding so proceed with caution but work damn hard! Rifle River jstream@girch1.med.uth.tmc.edu From: das@opus.freenet.vancouver.bc.ca (Darcy Semeniuk) Subject: Re: Deadlifts How-To? Date: 16 Dec 1995 21:22:01 GMT X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Mr.Deadlift (tmg@umich.edu) wrote: : If the barbell is rubbing against your shins, than you are standing too : close to the barbell. I disagree. It really depends a lot on your body porportions and which style you use. For myself, if I do conventional DL, no matter how I try, I always end up tearing my shins up, if I keep proper form. When I switched to sumo (with a med width stance), I only sometimes tear into them (usually on heavy singles). Garry, on the other hand, never even touches his shins - but then again we're built quite differently. Darcy - If the hair has started to grow back, its time to do deads again :-) From: desilets@media-lab.media.mit.edu (Mark Desilets) Subject: Re: Deadlifts & bloody shins (was Powerlifting) Date: 28 Jan 1995 00:17:03 GMT In article <3g4our$asa@nntp1.u.washington.edu>, griffin@u.washington.edu (Thomas Griffin) writes: |> In article <3g0uaa$f1f@number6.ndhm.gtegsc.com>, |> Ron Cecchini wrote: |> [snip]> |> > [deletia...] |> > |> >You also bang the hell out of your shins. Even with my good form |> >[ thank you, thank you - Bob said I had clean form, so it must be true ], |> >I still can't avoid ripping nice bloody gashes into my shins. I've just |> >accepted it. |> |> I used to bang up my shins but then read some misc.fitness |> "netwisdom" that this was bad form. So I've been trying |> to keep them blood-free, but it has been a struggle and |> feels awkward. Does anyone else want to weight in pro or con |> on the bloody shins issue? |> |> Oh yeah, has anyone ever done deadlifts with shin guards? |> I had severe problems with my shins whenever I got heavier than 300-325 range. I still have scarred shins from this. I tried hocky shin guards, but they aren't smooth enough as the bar gets caught on the lip of the guard. I tried wrapping with ace bandage, and wrapping with long pants overl top, but neither kept the seal integrity of my skin. Finally I decided to back off on my weight and work on form. I had been lifting 375-380 with dreams of that fourth plate dancing in my head. I droped back to 275 and really worked on getting more back into the lift earlier. Using smooth controlled form *and more back* I was able to work back to my present 335-340 with unbloodied shins. Will I make 405 without staining my pants? (the shins you pervert!) I dunno. But I am lifting heavier than I had been with good form and no bloody shins. When I teach deadlift form, I emphasize keeping a fairly vertical back and driving the legs through the floor. For me, however, this is a recipe for bloody shins. If I were competing (which from my numbers, you see I am not!) I would sacrifice a bit o' shin for the lift. As I am lifting for fitness, strength and personal satisfaction, I will work with my modified form. From: john.ciccozzi@ab.com (John Ciccozzi) Subject: Re: Deadlift Grip: Over or Reverse? Date: 1 Dec 1995 17:57:32 GMT In article <49j9n1$2g0@ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, jkreps@ix.netcom.com says: > >I've read that the best grip for a deadlift is normally overgrip. If >you're going for max weight, it's reverse grip. > >I've been using a rvs grip for my normal sets... > >Does anyone believe I should use an overgrip instead? _________________________________________________________ I believe that the best grip for deadlifting is a combination grip of an undergrip and an overgrip. This helps cancel the torque on the bar. Be careful if you have never used the undergrip on the bar because as you progress into the multiple hundreds of pounds, there will be a significant amount of force on your biceps tendon. Give it a chance to strenghten up at this angle. John Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 From: staley@west.net (Charles I. Staley) Subject: Stiff-legged deadlifts A couple of points regarding proper execution of stiff-legged deadlifts have been suggested. I'd like to summarize these, and add a few of my own: 1) Take the loaded barbell from a raised position (power rack or milk crates). The use of straps helps to discourage shrugging, which is a consequence of not trusting your grip. 2) Feet in athletic stance, weight concentrated on heels. Keeping your weight on your heels is critical for targeting the hams--be careful not to fall backwards, of course. 3) The bar stays within one inch of your body throughout the lift--critical for spinal disk safety. Better yet, use a trap bar. 4) Maintain lordosis (neutral curve of the low back) throughout. Have a partner monitor this for you at first, and intermittantly thereafter. When you begin to lose this curve, you're at your end point for the eccentric stroke. DO NOT ALLOW THE LOW BACK TO ROUND. 5) Knees stay flexed to approximately 20 degrees. About half of the gluteus maximus fibers insert into the illiotibeal band. The IT band is not taut unless the knees are slightly flexed. As Paul Chek (who I learned this from) always asks, "If the glutes have nothing to anchor on, what's going to lift the weight?" 6) Use a slow, purposeful movement speed. 7) Head position is contentious. If the neck is extended, you risk injury to the cervical disks, especially C6-7. But if the neck is flexed, the spinal erectors will lose recruitment. I suggest a neutral neck position--don't go out of your way to look up, but certainly don't look down, either. 8) Inhale before eccentric stroke, then hold breath all the way down, and back up, until you're past the sticking point. This allows for valsalva maneuver, which protects the low back through intra-abdominal pressure mechanism. If you're hypertensive, performing the valsalva may be dangerous. I'd tell you to check with your physician, but that's kinda' like consulting your plumber for an engine problem. Most MD's are not schooled in exercise training (some are, of course) 9) Perform this movement while fresh. Do not pre-fatigue the abdominals, hamstrings, or lumbars with other exercises. 10) The value in this exercise is that it trains the hams for their role as hip-extensors, which is relevent in kicking, sprinting, etc. The stiff-leg deadlift is more functional than leg curls for most athletic and everyday activities. 11) This is a great way to train hams for people who have knee problems, since no movement occurs at the knee. 12) For those who like to experiment, you might try doing these with a dumbell in one hand, to improve recruitment of the stabilizers, or simply as a variation in your training. Very worthwhile. 13) Persons with existing back problems must exercise caution with regards to this message. Seek the guidance of a competent chiro, PT, or other health care practicioner who has expertise in low back pathology and/or dysfunction. Best regards Charles I. Staley, B.Sc., MSS -------------------------------------------- From: CONNELLDK@gvl.esys.com (Connell, DK Keith (6654)) Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 Subject: Re: Best Hamstring Exercise--Squats Michael Sullivan wrote: >In addition to exhausting me (and somehow helping me to catch colds), this >workout gives me really sore hamstrings. Sore as in it's Wednesday and >I can still feel a bit of soreness from my Sunday workout. So, is it that >the squats are working my hams differently than leg curls and that is causing >the soreness? Am I doing leg curls wrong? Should I just dump the leg curls >and stick with the squats to work my hamstrings? Am I squatting wrong? > >Oh, the good mornings I decided to try instead of stiff-legged deadlifts. >Not something I would recommend for beginners but I sure seem to be working >the hams and glutes better than SLD's. Then again, I could just be wacky. Michael, I highly suggest that you do not give up doing direct HAM exercises. For instance, I am a firm believer that you will have an imbalance between your quads and hams if you do so. Ever hear f football players pulling a ham? I believe that this is a major reason for this. Try doing "Parillo-style" SLDs. Set up by keeping your back arched during the entire movement. Stick your butt out and act if you are pressing your gut to the floor. This will keep your back out as much as possible. I know this sounds awkward, but give them a try. You don't need a whole lot of weight and you will only be able to go to mid-calf level at best. These not only give a superb stretch on the hams, but also work them at the glute tie-in. SLDs work more muscles than do leg curls; however, I don't discount leg curls as a valid exercise. Just make sure that the leg curl bench has a bend in it where your hip will reside. This makes it more effective. I also believe that leg curls (either standing or lying) work the lower part better (near the back of the knee insertion). Remember that the hams cross two joints and it is best to work a two-joint muscle at both ends for maximum stimulation. I personally think the Cybex leg curl is the best that I have tried. Just my .02. On Squats, when you pass parallel, you do involve the hams. Is this bad? No; however, I suggest that you do not isolate hamstring work to only deep squats. Keith ------------------------------ >It was mentioned that when doing reps that each rep should be performed as if >you were doing a single. Does this mean that you set the bar back down on the >floor, release the grip and stand up, then do the next rep. Tom Monroe: No, it means there is no place for touch-n-go deadlifts. Slowly lower the bar to the floor, then quickly make sure you have the bar close to your shin, your grip is right, your form is correct, etc., then pull again. Injuries always occur because of bad form. Touch-n-go deadlifts usually let the form suffer (usually the hips are too high and back is rounded). I would also start doing some extra work on the errectors (low back) and abs. Stiff leg deadlift off of a block, arched-back good mornings, hyperextensions, or reverse extensions and weighted ab work always work. Remember to try to avoid using a belt until you get to your heavier work sets. This will aid greatly in strengthening the abs so a belt will work even better when it is used. Tom McCullough MS, RD, CSCS, MSS ------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 23:11:34 -0400 From: TMccull230@aol.com To: weights-plus@fremont.hampshire.edu Subject: Re: The Saga continues Message-ID: <960410231132_510801864@emout04.mail.aol.com> >Someone asked each of us to post our deadlift routines. I deadlift on Friday only. My warm up looks like the following: 135 - 1 set of 10 repetitions 225 - 1 set of 5 repetitions 315 - 1 set of 3 repetitions 405 - 1 set of 1 repetition 495 - 1 set of 1 repetition ...then I jump to my work sets..... I train in 14 week cycles. Each deadlift cycle is based on my previous 1RM and is designed as follows: Week 1 - 70% x 2 sets of 10 repetitions Week 2 - 70% x 2 sets of 10 repetitions Week 3 - 73% x 2 sets of 8 repetitions Week 4 - 76% x 2 sets of 8 repetitions Week 5 - 79% x 2 sets of 5 repetitions Week 6 - 82% x 2 sets of 5 repetitions Week 7 - 85% x 2 sets of 5 repetitions Week 8 - 88% x 2 sets of 5 repetitions Week 9 - 91% x 2 sets of 3 repetitions Week 10 - 94% x 2 sets of 3 repetitions Week 11 - 97% x 2 sets of 2 repetitions Week 12 - 100% x 2 set of 2 repetitions Week 13 - 104% x 1 set of 1 repetition Week 14 - 107% - 111% x 1 set of 1 repetition I use a sumo stance. I use the following accessory exercises to strengthen my back: Straight back good mornings - 55% of my weekly work set x 2 x 8 Hyperextensions- heavy (100lbs+) 2 x 8 Weighted Chins-ups - 2 sets of 8 reps Heavy weighted ab work - 3 sets of 10 reps >Do others out there suffer from bloody shins? Any tips on how to avoid them? Yes! The reason this happens is bad form. It usually happens with reps, where the bar is set down AWAY from the shin. When the bar is pulled up in this position, it is also pulled into the shin. The bar should be close if not touching the shin and should be pulled up in a straight line with the body. Sometimes this problem can be solved by moving the pronated hand (overhand grip)in towards the center of the bar, just slightly. Also try avoiding touch and go repetitions with the deadlift. ALWAYS do each lift as though it were a single. Set the bar down, reset and pull each rep as a single. This will also keep the form correct and lessen the chance of any injury. Tom McCullough MS RD CSCS MSS Strength and Conditioning Coach Sport Nutrition Consultant Houston, TX ------------------------------ Topic No. 3 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:09:05 +0100 (BST) From: Giancarlo Soler Torrijos To: weights-plus@fremont.hampshire.edu Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: deadlifts et. al. Message-ID: > From: "Glenn Peden" > They're a great exercise! I haven't got a clue what my 1 RM would be for the > deadlift....I've never really been motivated to find out. My motivation behind doing I rep maxs is that you realize you can overcome your own limits. That is, pushing them higuer, with effort and concentration and training. > From: Thomas Griffin > Subject: Deadlifts- The Saga continues > I used to suffer from bloody shins but lately it hasn't been so bad. I > think my hamstrings are stronger and maybe that has improved my form. Do > others out there suffer from bloody shins? Any tips on how to avoid them? I would suffer from it every time I did heavy deadlifts and even leg presses! But as I learned to breathe correctly (exhaling when exerting effort) I dont have it anymore. Probably is a question of technique. BTW, I used to get a little bit of pain on my upper back when doing heavy deadlifts, but as soon as I included heavy upright rows in my routine (not same day as deadlift) I do not get it anymore. Giancarlo ----------------------- From: bapiche@lazrus.cca.rockwell.com (William A. Piche) Subject: Re: sumo vs. regular deadlift Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 22:34:36 GMT In article <4de3lf$605@mailer.mda.ca>, garry@mda.ca (Garry Holmen) writes: |> Daniel A. Johnson (johnsond@vt.edu) wrote: |> : As for the advantages. Sumo is usually harder to get of the ground, |> : by takes less to lock out. Conv style is easier to get off the ground |> : but is slower at the top. |> |> Hmmm... I experience just the opposite. Conventional is hardest right |> off the ground and it flies once I budge it. Sumo it comes off easy but |> it's harder to lock out at the top. |> |> Garry This gets back to your pic maybe Garry...but the *majority* of lifters I have talked to and what I have read for the last 15 years...says that it is harder for the sumo lifter off the ground and easier for lockout and opposite for the conventional. Just my 2 cents... -- Bill Piche (bapiche@cca.rockwell.com) From: deadlift@usa.pipeline.com (Mr.Deadlift) Subject: Re: sumo vs. regular deadlift Date: 16 Jan 1996 00:30:49 GMT In article , bapiche@lazrus.cca.rockwell.com (William A. Piche) wrote: > > This gets back to your pic maybe Garry...but the *majority* of lifters I > have talked to and what I have read for the last 15 years...says that > it is harder for the sumo lifter off the ground and easier for lockout > and opposite for the conventional. I have to agree with Hit Jedi Bill I have done both in training, and the above holds true. I will also point out something else that I have observed about deadlifting. The majority of people who are good squatters (and have a strong lower body), prefer the sumo deads, because sumo deads rely more heavily on lower body strength than lower back strength. But, people who are not as good a squatter, usually prefer conventional style deads because they do not rely on leg strength as much. I fall into the latter category. The sumo deads do feel more "natural" to me, but I can do 10% more weight in the conventional style than sumo. Just my $.02 Peace, Mr. Deadlift From: garry@mda.ca (Garry Holmen) Subject: Re: sumo vs. regular deadlift Date: 18 Jan 1996 17:59:02 GMT William A. Piche (bapiche@lazrus.cca.rockwell.com) wrote: : : Make sure you give it a good chance, i.e. make sure you get comfortable with : the technique first before trying to beat your other technique PR. Solid advice... right now I'm just getting the hang of and improving my sumo style. I've got to find that supersitious foot stance now... 8^) ( You know how everything has to be exactly right before you attempt a deadlift. 8^) ) The biggest difference to be is the sensation of the hands brushing against my thighs. In some cases near failure it almost feels like my hands might pop open. Just psychological I think though. I'm doing a mass/weight lifting cycle followed by a basic PL cycle that should take me to March. I have a competition in June (They cancelled one at the end of February... grumble.) And depending which deadlift I feel more comfortable with I'll train that one for that contest. Garry From: beucker@uoft02.utoledo.edu Subject: Re: sumo vs. regular deadlift Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:54:57 GMT In Article <4dglvh$rvr@mailer.mda.ca> garry@mda.ca (Garry Holmen) writes: >Mr.Deadlift (deadlift@usa.pipeline.com) wrote: >: bapiche@lazrus.cca.rockwell.com (William A. Piche) wrote: >: >: > >: > This gets back to your pic maybe Garry...but the *majority* of lifters I >: > have talked to and what I have read for the last 15 years...says that >: > it is harder for the sumo lifter off the ground and easier for lockout >: > and opposite for the conventional. >: >: I have to agree with Hit Jedi Bill >: I have done both in training, and the above holds true. I will also point > >OK... perhaps I'll concede the point that I'm a mutant. 8^) > >I find that because I have very long arms that it is very easy for me to >drive the weight off the ground in sumo and more difficult to lock out. > >As for which I can do more weight with I'm doing a cycle of sumo right >now just to experiment. I'm trying some advice from Jedi Bill... we'll >see how it turns out. > >Garry I feel that all lifters should train the conventional style deadlift, the majority of the year. If you are a beginner or a bodybuilder there should be no reason to use the sumo style. I compete using the sumo style but only switch out to it about 8-10 weeks away from a contest. My sumo style deadlift is the exact foot spacing as my squat, except my toes are pointed out more. By staying conventional I work my lower back harder. The squats work my legs and hips. So when I put both together during competition the results are excellent. Besides a majority of the top deadlifters are conventional, with exceptions of course (eg. Dan Austin, Ed Coan, etc. Bob Eucker From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: Help on Deadlift Date: Wed, 03 Apr 1996 01:15:47 GMT tmorris275@aol.com (TMorris275) wrote: >I have been doing squats for the last five weeks (once per week, >2x20) You didn't ask, but I'd cut the squats down to 1x20 if you are really working them hard. >and would like to add the deadlift on the second workout day each >week so that the squat and deadlift are not performed on the same day. good idea >1. Which type of deadlift is better for overall mass gain-- stiff leg >deadlift or the straight leg deadlift? I think you mean bent leg vs. stiff leg deadlift. Overall, the bent leg is better for mass gains. Additionally, the bent leg version can be done sumo style (the type many powerlifters use and maybe less efficient for mass gains than regular, JMHO). Also, many trainees have had success with the trap bar deadlift which falls somewhere between a squat and deadlift. For more details use a dejanews search engine. There were several posts a week or 2 ago. >2. Are they both equally safe (provided you use the correct form) or is >one more likely to cause injuries? They are both safe ONLY when done with proper form. Because you'll be handling heavy weight, any sacrifice in form can be dangerous. >I tried the bent leg deadlift for the first time yesterday. I only used >1/2 my body weight (I weigh 169 lbs) and today my shoulders are unusually >sore but my lower back and glutes are only slightly sore. I didn't think >that the bent leg deadlift worked the shoulders. If not, is the soreness >in my shoulders just because I have never done the deadlift before or is >this a symptom of a specific form problem? Was I perhaps unknowingly >jerking my arms up during the lift? Any advice would be appreciated. It could be. Don't try to shrug your shoulders up. Just keep them from slumping. Also, don't try to bend your arms. Just stay tight. Keep the weight as close is possible. I seen one guy use Vaseline on his shins because he tore them up so bad. During the initial lift, try to squeeze the weight off the floor. You shouldn't jerk at all. At the top, don't lean back. Slowly progress up in weight and ask a knowledgeable trainee (not necessarily the biggest guy) to check your form. Also, since you are starting out, just do them with an overhand grip. That way your grip will keep up with you back strength. Good Luck! -- Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: Deadlift reppin' Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 02:47:02 GMT chass@unixg.ubc.ca (Calvin Hass) wrote: > About deadlifts -- when I'm lifting heavy, I find that I can't >keep reps going one after the other without rest. I usually end up >pausing for about a second or so at the bottom. right about where they start getting tough, right? > Does the resting between reps take away from the effectiveness >of the DLs? Should I go lighter so that I can do all reps one >after the other? I would continue to do them rest-pause style to get the maximum effectiveness from the deadlift. Trying to do them quickly one after the other will cause you to break your form. Set the bar on the floor/rack, reset yourself and pull up again. Good luck! -- Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu From: cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu (Chuck Clark) Subject: Re: Help on Deadlift Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 04:24:26 GMT gjvance@axionet.com (Greg) wrote: >OK then, what is the difference between the two (sumo & std)? Does one >emphasize certain muscles more than the other? Well, for one thing you have effectively shortened the distance in the sumo. Theoretically, the quads are more active in the sumo. Most good squatters do better with the sumo. Most tall trainees do better with the conventional style. Another point is the difference between the deadlift as a lift and as an exercise. The conventional is usually harder because of the increased distance one must move the bar. This is desirable. Why? Well, the hardest exercises are the ones that give the most growth, right? So, it stands to reason the conventional is a better exercise >from an exercise point of view. JMHO. -- Chuck Clark SPT cmclarz1@homer.louisville.edu Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 07:27:54 -0700 (PDT) From: ckm@netcom.com (Colin K. Mick) Subject: Fat bars Regarding "fat bars". try IronMind Enterprises, PO Box 1228, Nevada City, CA 95959 (916) 265-6725. The 1996 catalog lists 2" and 2.5" dumbell bars and they carry a 2" barbell bar called "Apollon's Axle." They also carry grip work tools you may find interesting. Colin Mick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:01:27 -0600 (MDT) From: Paul Young Subject: RE: fat bar I sent a message to Don Speray after his post in WEIGHTS-PLUS concerning fat bar work. I am a believer in the all-around value of using fat bars in your training. For training athletes, there is nothing better for developing functional strength!!! For grip strength and forearm development, nothing else comes close to matching what a fat bar can do for you. After several years of diligent training on a fat bar (2 1/2" and 3" diameter bar) one of my football players has recorded the following bests in training: 330 lbs. x 1 rep on a 2 1/2" bar 200 lbs. x 30 reps on a 3" bar (YEOW!!!!) And most recently, he performed a one-handed deadlift on a 1 1/4" cambered bar with 530 lbs. This was without a hook grip just a plain old grab onto the bar and lift grip. This is not only impressive from the amount of weight lifted but that he did this on only his fourth time performing the lift (he did 500 lbs. the second time that he ever performed the lift). He credits fat bar deadlifting for reps and singles for developing the strength needed to lift 530 lbs. with one hand. When he started out, he could not perform a set of 20 reps with 150 lbs. on a 2 1/2" bar without rest-pausing the reps. HAMMER STRENGTH makes fat bars (or what they call thick bars in 2" and 2 1/2"). Randy Strossen at IronMind Enterprises makes a 2" bar that he calls Apollon's Axle. The bars from both places are rugged and fairly priced. There may be other places that sell them but these are the only two with which I am familiar. I had a local welder weld some 2", 2 1/2", and 3" pipe over some old bent olympic bars that I had in the weight room. I hope this is helpful to you. Give fat bar work a try and you will soon find out why the old strongmen had fantastic grip strength and forearm development. Best of luck with all your training! Paul Young, strength coach Black Hills State University