Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 00:28:24 -0800 From: Deepsquatter Subject: Re: Strength_List: Bench press question Jeffry Deigan wrote: > > Does anyone out there do anything before they bench to pump up their biceps > and/or lats and if so how much do you think it helps. I was talking to > someone the other day who told me that once he started doing pullups before > he benched his BP went up 30LBS. Jeff, this is odd. Years ago I tried doing chins/back work before benching and my poundages dropped. Since the back muscles stablize the bench and help off the bottom (except for Wagman :) )it would seem to me that this would make your bench go down. Maybe just a few light sets to pump some blood might help.... - -- Jason W. Burnell STRENGTH ONLINE: http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/ Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 11:11:21 -0600 From: Roger Broeg Subject: Re: Strength_List: Bench press question At 11:13 AM 1/3/99 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 1/3/99 2:41:41 AM Central Standard Time, >deepsquatter@deepsquatter.com writes: > ><< Jeffry Deigan wrote: > > > > Does anyone out there do anything before they bench to pump up their biceps > > and/or lats and if so how much do you think it helps. I was talking to > > someone the other day who told me that once he started doing pullups before > > he benched his BP went up 30LBS. > > Jeff, this is odd. Years ago I tried doing chins/back work before > benching and my poundages dropped. Since the back muscles stablize the > bench and help off the bottom (except for Wagman :) )it would seem to me > that this would make your bench go down. Maybe just a few light sets to > pump some blood might help.... > -- >> > I know in my last PowerSports competition. The heavy curl really seemed to take some poundage away from what I could benchpress. Roger www.willinet.net/~broeg/index.html Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:27:17 EST From: Benchprssr@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: Bench press question Jeff, I am sure you are going to get alot of response with this question. I have always adhered to the belief that the best way to warm for my bench is to, do a few light bench sets until I feel warm enough to work my target sets for the day. Start light and then get to target range to train properly. Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:18:00 -0500 (EST) From: greg matthew simmons Subject: Re: Strength_List: pausing not pausing on benches > Greg, How long does the stretch reflex last? I believe Louie states it is just > a rule because in a well judged meet the stretch reflex is still a very > important aspect even if the judges have you pause for 2 secs. That is a good question that I am not sure how to answer. That is why it becomes important on how to define these things and apply them to training. You have to watch with the stretch reflex because it is a "reflex" and potentiation lasts only milliseconds. Afterwards the muscle and connective tissue "stores" the energy. I personally do > not relax my muscles on a paused rep. Why would you? If a lifter is having > trouble getting the bar under control in a meet I do not believe it is because > they lifted explosively and thus do not know how to pause. I believe it is > because they need to get stronger, especially in the lats. > I seem to let the bar sink in a bit and I seem able to get more drive off the chest as opposed to actively holding the bar on the surface of the chest. Maybe because I train with a pause it becomes a more efficient for me to do so while guys you pause are better at the other?? Good questions Greg Simmons Graduate Student Indiana University Human Performance Lab Applied Sport Science Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:29:15 -0600 From: "Ingram, Kim" Subject: Strength_List: pausing not pausing on benches I have been benching with a pause for most of the years I have be PL. Although I have only heard of Louie type of training on this list. I feel like I have more control and power consist speed decent with the pause. My bench went up when I would use pause on ALL sets and ALL reps on flat bench. I don't know may be I am missing the point but I do know that it has only helped me when I go to the meets. I didn't have to think about a pause cuz that's just the way I benched. Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:58:27 -0800 From: "Bill Denlinger" Subject: Re: Strength_List: pausing not pausing on benches I don't believe it's beneficial at all to pause with 55% of your 1 rep Max the weight is way to light and it's not the same as pausing with a heavier weight. If you are going to practice your pause you need to do it with a heavy weight which is much more difficult to lower and control. The purpose of the speed sets is speed training and reversal strength etc. I have achieved good results doing 8 x 3 as Louie recommends and then I do 2 sets x 1 or 2 reps. with 80% on week 1 and 2 sets with 82.5% on week 2 etc. going up to 87.5 or 90% until I test on week 4 or 5. On all of the 80%+ sets I practice my pause. By doing this I keep my meet form and perform 20% of my sets with 80% or higher as recommended. I also practice the pause on my incline, decline, and floor presses. By doing this I have never had a problem pausing in a USAPL meet. Take Care, Bill Denlinger Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:20:53 -0800 From: "Bill Denlinger" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Bench weakness When the weight travels over your face it's because your shoulders are stronger than your triceps. This leads to shoulder injuries and is why so much emphasis is placed on tricep training at Westside. Benching straight up is also a shorter path. Regards, Bill Denlinger >>From: Huaiyu Tan - Franklin High - Orleans >>To: strength@deepsquatter.com >>Date: Friday, January 15, 1999 11:14 PM >>Subject: Re: Strength_List: Bench weakness >> >> >>>when the bar sails over the face, i think it's because of weak lats. >>>zilla > >Louie Simmons says it is because of strong shoulders >Roger > Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 22:11:33 EST From: Mcsiff@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: BENCH TECHNIQUE On 1/16/99, Bill Denlinger wrote: <> ***Dr Tom McLaughlin did a great deal of biomechanical research on the bench press, using many world champion powerlifters as subjects, and he showed that a bar trajectory which arcs slightly backward over the face can provide definite performance advantages for many lifters, so we cannot automatically label any given style as completely incorrect or harmful (see T McLaughlin "Bench Press More Now!" 1984). Dr Mel C Siff Colorado, USA mcsiff@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:31:51 -0200 From: "Denilson Costa" Subject: Re: Strength_List: BENCH TECHNIQUE Thanks Mel ! I agree, if you look at Louie guys benching on the tapes you can see a mild arc ocurring. Most powerlifters ( specially while using a shirt ) will lower the bar down to nipples or lower,, so the bar gets farther away from shoulder joints as it descends. The movment is rotational around shoulder joints, if it were a pure straight line down, and straight line up, one would have to be benching over mid pecs or clavicles, as some bodybuilders do with wide grips and elbows out positioning to isolate pecs. The point is, as the bar is so low, some times close to upper abs, pressing it from there in a literally straight line would cause the bar to fall forward 2/3 of the way up. May be some lifters do exagerate the arc motion, and literally bring the bar close to face at the top, but looking down to simple biomechanics will show one that the bar should come up in an arc to at least over your shoulder joints, because that was the position the bar already was, at arms lenght before descend. As the shoulder joint is not in the same line with the nipples or upper abs, no pure straight line press can occur. The bench groove will change in a subtle way after implementing a program of lat and tricep specialization. The press may feel more staight, but not literally. Denilson, Brasil Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:06:07 -0800 From: "Bill Denlinger" Subject: Re: Strength_List: BENCH TECHNIQUE I don't disagree here a "slight" path towards your head is perfect. You do still need to use your shoulders and chest etc. for a maximum lift. The point is one will see many lifters benching with their elbows out and the bar traveling up and way back over the face. This is very common and leads to shoulder injuries and poor overall bench performance. If one competes with a shirt (and should) then strong triceps is a must because about 70% of the lift is performed by the triceps. The elbows should be in, lats out, and the bar should travel in a relatively straight path up. No offense but I'll take Louie Simmons advice on this one. He does nothing but study and experiment with the three lifts and I don't think it's any accident that the best benchers in the world as a group are in Columbus, OH. I have only been powerlifting for 2 years and was 4th in the 1998 USAPL Nationals 220 class, am currently over the 450 mark and plan on hitting 500 by the Ohio Open Bench Championships in the fall (and yes I compete in all 3 lifts). The point I'm trying to make here is his system just keeps working and working and working. As a powerlifter its all I have ever done, plus it's a lot of fun. I don't want to ramble here but this brings me to one more point, "the bench shirt". There seems to be a lot of discussion concerning the shirt these days. Although the shirt does improve performance it still puts everyone on a relatively even playing field (in the USAPL) and prevents a lot of injuries. One of the things I like most about the meets is wearing the equipment. For me it's like dressing for battle. It adds to the atmosphere and helps stoke the competitive fire. I guess as a ex football player it reminds me of putting on the pads. To me not wearing a bench shirt or squat suite is like not wearing your shoulder pads, because it helps you hit harder and saves your shoulder girdle. Thanks, Bill Denlinger Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:02:16 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: Re: Strength_List: Bench gains. John wrote, >I began a new routine about a little over a month ago after a week rest >period. From what I have learned about how my own body reacts to >training an so on, I have come up with a new routine. Since I seem to >recover very quickly from a bench work out, I decided to do bench >training twice a week instead of once a week (i.e Monday and Friday). >That leaves me with time for one more workout per week (on Wednesday) >and with my squat and deadlift workouts still to fit in. It takes me a >considerably long time to recvoer from squats and deadlifts. I decided >to alternate each week between squat and deadlift. So I end up doing >squats every second wednesday and deadlifts every other wednesday. How are you defining recovery? Too often recovery is defined by muscle soreness being gone. In fact in a pure strength protocol often the muscles never get sore! I would suggest that you are probably doing too much heavy bench work. Train the bench heavy one day doing heavy triceps and front delt assistance. Train it explosively the next day doing lighter triceps and all-around shoulder work. You might also want to try training the bench every second workout. Squat / Bench / Deadlift / Bench / Squat etc. Remember that there is more to manipulate in training than just body parts worked. WHat is working right in the squat / deadlift day? Can that be adapted to bench training? Rep scheme? % of 1 RM? Sets? > > One month is pretty early to start worrying about it, but if you feel you are stuck - do something different. - - Keith Hobman Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:04:11 -0500 (EST) From: John F Cale Subject: Strength_List: Re: bench gains Lots of perspectives here, but 1. Are you periodicizing? If not, try Simmons or Dr. Squat routines 2. what's your weak point? Identify it and work it, and when you bring it up, you'll lift more. John Cale Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:54:04 -0600 From: Bob Mann Subject: Re: Strength_List: What the heck man II? Okay, here's a third view. My problem is right in the transition zone. I can move a lot off my chest and I can lock out a lot but I can't get it through the transition. My prescription is to work rack lockouts from varying heights. Make sure you lock out every rep, really lock it out. Part of the problem with failing to lock a weight out is loss of momentum so speed work is good too. I have a separate bench day and assistance day. On the bench day I do up to a heavy triple followed by speed work, heavy weighted dips (bent forward), rack presses from 2 different heights (3 sets of 8 at each height) and some pressdowns, pullovers or other high rep exercise. I finish up with some rows for the lats. On assistance day I do floor presses (up to a heavy double), close grips ( to a heavy double) upright weighted dips (4 sets of 8 with increasing weight) tricep pressdowns and finsh with 3 sets of curls for stability. The moral is...don't neglect your triceps. At 09:09 PM 1/30/99 -0600, Keith Hobman wrote: >Hayden wrote, > >>I'm disappointed guys? I maxed out on the bench yesterday and I couldn't >>complete 275. It came flying off my chest but stalled just before >>lockout. I can double 265, triple 255, and rocket 270, why can't get 275 >>then? The only logical explanation I can think of is that I haven't done >>triceps work in three months. But... >> >>Any comments? >> >1. Rack lockouts! > >2. Board Presses > >3. JM Press with dumbbells > >Prescription for locking out. I'm just the opposite - if I can get it off >my chest I can normally get it home. However, my arm is now pretty weak >from the biceps tear and I'm starting to have some sympathy with lockout >problems. > >The good news is this is normally an easy thing to cure ... > >- Keith Hobman Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:52:18 -0600 From: Keith Hobman Subject: RE: Strength_List: RE: genetic factors Jim wrote, > >> On a more realistic note, I think as technique improves the deadlifter >> learns how to shrug the shoulder girdle down a bit and pull with what I >> call a 'drop shoulder' position. Jim may already be doing this, but most > >Thats very interesting. Before I was doing the westside routine,I used to >deadlift every week. As I got tired and the weights go heavier, on occasion >the finishing position would be about 1" below my jewels... It is always >difficult to repeat, but it sounds like that "drop shoulder" position you >talk about. > >Any tips on re-producing it at will??? Any special stretching? > I preach what I call 'drop shoulder' to both the lifters I train - constantly. Its not a matter of stretching, its a matter of body position. Its something I also work a lot on myself. However, what you probably did was 'slump' the shoulders, which is a no-no and the opposite of what I refer to as a 'drop shoulder'. My brother and I were benching heavy yesterday - going to a max - and I noticed that as soon as he got to a weight that he knew mentally was near his max his technique went to pot. I've been guilty of doing the same. I think it was Big Daddy who talked about trying to 'bend' the bar on the way down in order to get a good tight position. Excellent idea and technique - it really helps! If you think of 'pulling' the bar down on the bench the chest come out and the shoulders go back and are dropped - like the finish of the row. Bring the bar down in this position - a 'drop shoulder' position - and then drive out of it. What Darren did was allow the shoulders to come up and the chest to drop in his start position. Inadvertently we trained this by doing very heavy rack presses. The rack press becomes an 'racking' exercise. Dropping the chest and extending the shoulders gives leverage at the top of the lift, but it greatly reduces it at the bottom of the lift. To avoid this watch the technique in rack pulls and add the heavy handoffs. We'll be working these in the next cycle. Squat is much the same thing. If the shoulders are back and the chest is out the back stays arched and the lifter avoids that 'round back' feeling. Last the deadlift. Especially conventional lifters tend to start the pull with the shoulders slumped and then 'pull' with the back instead of driving the legs. This leaves the bar further out in front and the lifter gets into that 'round-back' lift. Some lifters are able to do this with great results (Vince Anello and John Kuc come to mind), but for most lifters they are better off using the muscles of the legs and hips to initiate the lift. Drop the shoulders - get the chest out. For sumo lifters it is essential to find this position. If this position can be held the bar stays closer to the body and the leverage is better. I noted from the tapes that when I was lifting in algary in April/98 I didn't hold my position and as a result I had a difficult time finishing the deadlift - something I had never had a problem with. In my case I believe it was from being tired and using a squat suit that was too tight. Jason has the picture of me pulling 585 in a slump position here. http://deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/misc/hobman.htm Slumping the shoulders is bad. Even worse is tightening them and lifting in a 'finished shrug' position. This is what I find a lot of novice lifters doing. They are lifting a heavy weight and they 'tighten up' as they approach the bar. If you go to Krista's page on my daughter Meghan you can see what I call a tight shoulder position instead of a drop shoulder. Check it out lower down on the page. It is the colour picture. Higher up on the page she is doing a rack pull in a good shoulder position. http://krista.tico.com/meghan.html See what I mean? Dropping her shoulder back would lower the bar at least an 1 1/2". Food for thought. - - Keith Hobman Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 08:26:11 -0500 From: Roger Broeg Subject: Strength_List: Suggestions please My bench is sticking somewhere past the halfway up point. The last 2 inches it picks up speed. I have no problem with lockout. But I still think my problem is a tricep one. I have a goal of benching double bodyweight but am stuck at 250 for a pause and 260 touch and go. Right now I need a 310 for 2x bodyweight. Can anybody recommend some good core exercises to work the weak part of my strength curve. I figure the bar is sticking about 2/3 of the way up. Roger Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:37:47 -0400 From: "Tom O'Brien" Subject: RE: Strength_List: Suggestions please Use a powerrack and set the pins so that the bar will hit them at your sticking point. Load up and push it and hold. Weighted dips should also help out a lot. Also, given the location of the sticking point, it is possible that it may be your lats, try pullups and rows if they are not already part of your routine. Tommy O Tried the power rack thing, Nada, Do dips regularly with a 110 dumbell. Dips keep going up sticking point remains the same, I can do bent rows with 250 for 3 sets of 3 and one arm rows with my bodyweight for triples so I don't think the lats are a prob. I think lats help most at the initial push off the chest. I am VERY strong there. BTW I posted this in case others want to take a shot. So they will know what I have tried. Thankyou for your suggestions. If you can think of anymore I am open. Roger www.willinet.net/~broeg/index.html Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 09:39:36 -0400 From: "John Koch" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Suggestions please What kind of triceps assistance exercises do you do? Are you switching them every two weeks? Once I learned how to do JM presses correctly, my triceps strength increased dramatically. Maybe you can try these. Why don't you give us a little more info. about how you train and then I'll do my best to help. John Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:23:29 -0400 From: "Michael W. Brookman, Jr" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Suggestions please Sounds like me now. Try alot of Tricep work, JM Presses have done wonders for me. I also took the advice of Bob Yougs (a westside lifter) who said about once every 2-3 weeks do a Superset for the triceps. Do JM Presses or barbell ext to nose for 5x3 then immediately superset after set of those with Triceps pressdowns for reps in the 10-12 range. It has helped alot and my weakness is improving. Also, try doing rack lockouts starting at your weak point. You can use Rack lockouts for about any area of the weak point and it works wonders. Also, I don't know about you but can you do floor presses and still be close to this trouble area? I know some who use these and get good results. My simple suggestion is hit the triceps hard. Experiment and see what you like. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Brookman Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:33:23 -0500 From: "Jeff Oien" Subject: RE: Strength_List: Suggestions please Just some wild guesses here, maybe you've done these already: - -rack presses starting out very high and working down (similar to what you do for squats and deads) - -1/4 dips, body straight up and down, elbows in - -close grip high incline bench press Jeff Oien, WebDesigns http://www.webdesigns1.com/ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 10:22:45 -0700 From: Deepsquatter Subject: Re: Strength_List: Suggestions please Roger this sounds a lot like me. I doubt it's your tris and since you are strong off the chest, pecs and lats (I read some of the other replies) are probably ok. I'd probably do somw specific delt work. Things that have worked for me for this are: Seated Rack Presses a la Westside - I did these on max effort day after my primary exercise. I'd vary the height of the pins from about chin level to forehead level (different weeks) Each week I'd work up to a max weight at a particular height with one grip, then I'd do two sets with a different grip for 5-8 reps example: week one 20" grip work up to a max and then 2 sets of five with a 26" grip at same pin height week two 20" grip work up to a max and then 2 sets of five with a 26" grip at same pin height week three 24" grip work up to a max and then 2 sets of five with a 20" grip at same pin height week four 24" grip work up to a max and then 2 sets of five with a 20" grip at same pin height Then on week five I'd change pin heights or something The other thing that has helped is to break shoulders out into thier own day a la Ed Coanan. The does mean an extra session but if you keep the chest day and shoulder day really short you can avoid burnout - just be sure to get lots of sleep and grub like theres no tomorrow. Good luck Jason Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 09:50:35 -0400 From: "John Koch" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Suggestions please What I meant to say was: I am looking to improve my triceps, I think it's my obvious weak area in the bench. What is the correct way to do JM presses? Bob ****Sorry it took me so long to get back. I've been pretty busy at work. To do a JM press grip the bar as you would for a close grip BP, just outside the smooth part. Lower the bar toward your nipples keeping your elbows tucked in at your sides, but stop 4 or 5 inches above your chest. Rotate the bar a couple of inches back towards your head. You should feel the load shift to your triceps when you do this. Press the bar back up in a STRAIGHT LINE, not an arc like you would for an extension. If you can do much more than half of your best BP for three reps then you probably aren't doing them correctly. If I remember correctly, Kenny Patterson does 315x3 and his best bench is 728. I hope this helps you. John Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 03:20:49 -0000 From: "STAN VESPIE" Subject: Re: Strength_List: WestSide big bench a floor press works the top half of the pressing movement...if the top half (delts and tris) are the weak movers in the bench, then thats what you need to work on. for example, if you have a hard time locking a weight out, but you can force the bar up off your chest hard, then you your delts/tris are the weak mover. in this case, floor presses would help. however if you have no problems after struggling the bar up that first six inches, then you need to work on your chest. and floor presses won't do much good at all. stan "knowledge is power" - ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Hill Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 4:09 AM Subject: Strength_List: WestSide big bench > Also how well does a > floor press carry over to an actual bench press in comp. > God Bless, > > Steven Hill Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 13:36:31 GMT From: "Wes Jones" Subject: Re: Strength_List: bench press width I put my ring finger on the rings of the bar for a normal competition bench, but during my workouts with speed bench, I vary my hand position from a close grip (hands at the edge of the smooth part of the bar to an illegal wide grip (hands outside the rings). I'm 5'10" Wes Jones Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 13:05:59 EDT From: WestsideBB@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: bench press width 5'11" here and my sticking point seems to remain the same regardless of my grip width. I used to bench with a relatively closer grip (thumbs length away from the smooth part of the bar). I moved it out so that my pinkie finger was on the power rings. Guess what? My bench went up. This past training cycle, again I moved my grip out so that my ring finger is on the power ring. Guess what? Bingo, another PR. This cycle I will move it out again so that my middle finger is on the power ring. Eventually, over time I hope to be at full legal width...32". My arms seem to go on for days, hence the success with the wider grips. Although I advocate widening your grip (if it's beneficial to you), I believe it has to be done gradually. Don't make drastic changes over night or you're asking for trouble. I've heard too many horror stories of torn pecs and ruined shoulders and I, quite frankly, want no part of that. Train hard and train smart. Stay strong, Matt Gary Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1999 17:26:56 EDT From: JBistany@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: bench press width I am bench-obsessed and I've tried every grip out there. I'm 5'9" also and I've found that, after all the years experimenting, using my ring finger on the line on the power bar (32") gets the best results for me. I feel like this uses my tri's, pecs, lats, and delts all at their maximun potential. I used to be a "T" style bencher(that is my arms would flare out to the sides at 90 degrees to my body) and was successful with a wider grip. Now that I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT, and pull my elbows in more towards my body, I am stronger with the closer grip(ring finger). Also, my bench went up 35 lbs. since the change, which is a huge gain for me in one year, so I'm psyched! I hope this helps you, but remember, what works for me, might not necessarily work for you! Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 04:23:44 EDT From: Cat44mag@aol.com Subject: Re: Thoughts on Bench Press Roger, Your situation sounds similar to one i had. My triceps were getting stronger and stronger, my triples were going up and my assistance works #'s were going up. Yet my max stayed the same. I found to the problem to be my back. My lats were weak. When i got up in heavy weight, my back would flatten out. This wasnt a problem with the lighter weights. I could do the same BP raw as i could do in a shirt. One good indicator is my floor press. My floor press was equal too or greater than my shirt BP. As Dave Tate said, this shows you that you arent using much back and legs in the bench. One thing that helped me is keeping my elbows in and shoulder blades tight. I have recently changed my whole bench style. I use to flare the elbows out, now I keep them tight. I seem to be slower off the bottom b/c the chest is not used as much, but as an assisted lifter, the shirt will take care of that. My suggestion is that have someone look at your form. Try keeping the lats tight throughout the movement. I use not do this b/c with the lower weights it didnt matter. Now i try and practice it all the time. I know what you are going through. My strength has went through the roof, but the bench stayed the same. I think its all a matter of not using the proper form when you do max weights. Hope some of this helps Roger Chad T Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 08:10:24 -0400 From: "JOSEPH E BROWN II" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Thoughts on Bench Press Sorry if I missed something, but it sounds like you bench without a shirt. If I am correct than, instead of partial movements, you should concentrate on High Inclines, Declines, Wide Grip, and Board Presses using a cambered bar. I had this same problem and this is the advice I was given. Joe - ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger Sent: Saturday, August 07, 1999 12:36 AM Subject: Re: Strength_List: Thoughts on Bench Press > >In a message dated 8/6/99 12:41:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > >gymrat@willinet.net writes: > > > > My current theory is that I simply have to do full heavy benchpresses to > > improve my benchpress. Board presses, floor presses, dumbell presses, and > > close grip incline presses just don't cut it. > > If anybody else has any other theories I am all ears. Have at it. > > > > Roger > > > >what type of numbers in relation to your max bench are you getting on > >these max exercises? > > *****Floor press=245, two board press=250, 3 board closegrip presses=240. > In the time I have been doing these my bench has dropped. Don't know what > my current max is. But in the last couple months my best triple has dropped > from 230 to 215. Which BTW I recently tripled 220 in the 3 board close grip. > > Roger Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:25:46 EDT From: Benchprssr@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: Pause on BP In a message dated 8/16/1999 5:32:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sbellon@juno.com writes: > I was watching the clip of Joe Mac benching that I downloaded from Freaks > o Natature. He didn't pause his bench but maybe a 1/2 second. How long > do you have to pause? I remember pausing for about 2 seconds it seemed. > > Shawn T. Be'llon The answer is, "it depends"...... most rules will state, "when the bar becomes motionless on the chest"....if you are lifting in a federation that gives the press command it will be largely up to the head judge and his/her decretion on determining what it motionless. The lifter also be a major factor as he/she needs to have the bar under control and make it touch and be "motionless". I have found that if I train with a ,,, "one thousand one" count that it will be about right in competition. I have also found that when most lifter lower the bar slowly to the chest, they will get the signal a bit quicker than a person with a fast decent...I believe this is due to the ability to make the bar motionless is easier and cleaner with the slow decent...hope this helps...bruce Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:57:43 -0500 From: Roger Subject: Re: Strength_List: Pause on BP At 07:32 AM 8/16/99 -0500, you wrote: >I was watching the clip of Joe Mac benching that I downloaded from Freaks >o Natature. He didn't pause his bench but maybe a 1/2 second. How long >do you have to pause? I remember pausing for about 2 seconds it seemed. > It always seems longer than it really is. The bar simply must come to a complete stop. There is no specified time. Once it stops you should get the signal. But when you have a max weight on your chest a split second feels like forever. Roger Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:11:03 -0600 From: "Scott Wood" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Pause on BP I am a referree in the APA and the rule of thumb that I typically use is if the bar is brought down in a controlled fasion then I will typically give the press command quicker. The key here is control, control, control. Especially at the bottom of the lift. Scott Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:54:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Draminski Subject: Re: Strength_List: Bench Grip A good way to help keep those elbows in and use more back in the lowering of the bar. Roll your shoulders back when you get set to lift so that your shoulder blades are squeezed together. and keep them squeezed during the lift. It only took me a week or so to get used to this and it has significantly improved my benching. steve d Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:00:37 EDT From: Cat44mag@aol.com Subject: Strength_List: Scott Wood Bench Shirt ? If I am currently benching 325x3 paused raw, how much carry over would I get from wearing a bench shirt (single poly)? 60 lbs, 70lbs??? for a single, Scott Scott, there are many variables to consider. A shirt only helps if the muscles which it does not assist are as strong as the shirt. I got caught into the idea thinkin that a shirt was gonna give me an automatic 40 or so pounds. Well the result is that I got about 5 lbs out of a shirt. Why? well, my triceps were not any stronger than my chest. All the shirt did was make me faster off the bottom, but not fast enough to overcome my weak triceps. I'd say you should be good for 350+ Raw as long as your back is up to par. As for the carryover for the shirt, the only thing I could recommend is to get one and try it. Key with the shirt is to have your triceps as strong as possible, b/c the shirt is going to do most of the work off the chest. Hope this helps. Chad T. Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 07:42:22 -0400 From: "John Koch" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Value of tri extension exercises in powerlifting Triceps are the muscles that usually fail the bench. Leg extensions work the quads which rarely fail the *power* squat. I think that most big benchers can do triceps extensions for a triple with at least half of what they bench. I think Jamie Harris did 400 for 2!! I have a long way to go........ John >>> "Jan Baggerud Larsen, Systemutvikler 8366" 8/19/99 3:09:17 AM >>> I was wondering about the value of doing triceps extensions for powerlifting. Most people agree that leg extensions are relatively worthless for increasing the squat. Why then would triceps extensions be good for increasing the bench press? Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:16:19 -0500 (CDT) From: nccozine@webtv.net (Noble Cozine) Subject: Bench? >*****Close grip board presses with 3 boards really seem to nail my tris. >Also I get a LOT out of reverse grip benchpresses. > >Roger The board??? is it a 2x10 sawed down to fit over your chest only? I am confused about it. Scott Scott, go buy some 2x6's. Cut them in 12-16" pieces.Nail them together. You need 2 , 3, and maybe 4. Mine have a thin layer of foam and are wrapped in plastic(like the kind that covers a bench. Then all you have to do is put it under your shirt. Cozy Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 13:52:43 -0400 From: "John Koch" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Bench Press confusion If your friend can't show you in person, I don't know how much good my description is going to do. But...... I just try to push with my heels as hard as I can and keep my legs tight. I have to take a pretty wide stance (I guess it's called a stance???) to avoid lifting my butt from the bench. Remember, this is not the same thing as trying to get a big arch. It's exactly the opposite. My legs get pretty stiff and sore when I bench. John >>> "Bradley Slining" 9/22/99 6:01:12 PM >>> Ok, using the legs to drive the bench. How? I have a friend (competetive powerlifter) tryin to teach me how, but i just dont get it when he explains it to me. Are there assistance exercises or anything I could do to practice this or develop it? I see my friend doin it (he did 500x3 the other day. raw), but I cant duplicxate what he's doin (the form AND the weight. hehe). Maybe someone here can explain it better? Thanks, Brad Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 08:56:59 -0700 From: "Dean Reece" Subject: RE: Strength_List: rookie bench press question Perpendicular? I did this too until I i got over 325...Then I nearly tore my shoulder off. Took 9 mo to recover and my bench is just getting back to where it was. If you are going to lift heavy and lift raw, bring your elbows in closer to your body (I do mine at most at a 45 degree angle from the body) and drop the bar to a comfortable point below your nipple and just above the base of the sternum. What's that link again that shows you benching? I am by no means an expert bencher, just someone who has successfully retrained himself to bench in a way more conducive to my body type. Dean Reece Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 10:29:13 -0500 From: Roger Subject: Re: Strength_List: rookie bench press question At 10:32 AM 10/8/99 -0400, you wrote: >I keep hearing about keeping your elbows in. What exactly does this mean? >How far in? How far out is too far? > >> Tommy O Tuck them in as much as you can...which usually turns out to be about 45 degrees from the body. This will lower where the bar hits you on the chest. Roger Subject: Improving the bench press From: Charles Staley Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 06:26:02 -0800 >Subject: Increase Benchpress 50 lbs! >From: "Jacob Zettwoch" >Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 17:59:57 -0800 > >My workout partner and I have been pretty stagnant the last year >or so in regards to increasing the amount of weight we can lift >in various exercises. I came across a program on the musclemedia >webpage on how to increase your benchpress up to 50 lbs. (the >program is really set up to gain 25 lbs on the benchpress with >the ability to gain a bit more). I was just curious as to if >any of you have had any success with the program and if anyone >has tried the same scheme for other lifts (i.e. squats and >deadlifts). We just started the program on Sunday and we are >hoping this works. Thanks for your input. 1) Instead than trying to add 50 pounds to your bench press by simple progression programs, why not try the following: * Cut your reps in half/double your sets while using the same weight. I.e., if you normally use 185 for 5x8, use 185 for 10x4, using compensatory acceleration (i.e., as thebar moves past the sticking point and leverage improves, you compensate by attempting to increase bar speed to compensate). If you train like most people so, this one modification may well put 10-15 pounds on your bench in about 3-4 weeks. * The former tip allows you twice the number of opportunities to practice your technique, so DO IT! Before lift off, inhale until you can't get any more air in your lungs, and hold your breath until you are past the sticking point. Keep those feet nailed down to the floor (ever see one of those pieces of construction equipment at a site, and they have those "pods" that extend down to stabilize the vehicle while it works? Think of your legs the same way) and slightly in front of your knees, as opposed to directly under them. Bar moves straight up & down. Forcefully pressing your head into the bench, and looking at your dominant side hand may help as you handle very heavy weights. There are many, many other nuances to benching technique--these are just a few, * On a separate day, train your lats and triceps. Hard. Pull-ups and chin-ups with close grip, paused benches and lying DB triceps extensions. Use 4-6 sets of 3-5 reps * Investigate the Westside methods, especially conceps involving indetifying weak muscle groups and improving them. A few sites to take a look at: http://www.isu.edu/~andesean/SIMSEM.htm http://www.enteract.com/~bwal/dave.htm http://www.deepsquatter.com/westside/main.htm http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/Phasefordeep.htm Best of luck Charles Staley Myo Dynamics (800) 519-2492 http://www.myodynamics.com From: Gregory P Whalin [ mailto:gwhalin@numerix.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 1999 2:51 PM To: Strength Mailing List Subject: Strength_List: Wrist question I am starting to notice a bit of pain in my wrists when benching. I notice it with heavy weight, or with speed benches (due to the force generated from the explosion I guess). Basically, I recognize this as slight tendonitis (I think). It almost (and this sounds strange I know) hurts to let go of the bar at the end of the set. I do not use wrist wraps yet. Is this just something normal (and the reason why people where wraps), or am I doing something wrong. How much forearm work do any of the big benchers do on a typical basis. I do not do much, and am wondering if weak wrist flexors/extensors might be the problem. Thanks, Greg Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 15:40:25 -0600 From: Wade Johnson Subject: RE: Strength_List: Wrist question I work forearms twice weekly. I'd also recommend wrist wraps as well. Also, when warming up, warm-up your wrist as well. Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:41:06 -0800 (PST) From: david cummerow Subject: Re: Strength_List: Wrist question Greg - I'd get the wraps, good ones, asap. And look at some of the real benchers; many of them have popeye forearms, either naturally or from assistance work. (Frank please lend some visual credence to this one). It does make a difference, I think. Just eliminating the distraction is worth something and there seems to be an elbow connection here as well, or at least this is how I interpreted some stuff Jeff F. told me... DC Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 22:53:20 +0100 From: "Coen" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Wrist question Hi Greg, I had the same problem a year ago. For me it actually did hurt to let go of the bar, so much even that I had to use my right hand to grasp the left wrist when letting go. This problem was solved by doing no more bicep curls for about a month, and then slowly putting some forearm work in my routine. I don't know if you do curls (barbell as well as dumbell) but if you do it might be a good idea to give them up for a while. Also lay a bit low on pullups, this eventually solved the problem for me. When the pain subsides start putting some wrist curls in, and you should be fine. ( I carried on doing curls far too long, and believe me, that sort of pain is NOT good :-) Coen