Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 15:21:11 -0000 From: "plermantroudt" Subject: Re: BP Leg Thrust "Hartman, Mark" wrote: Among others, Dave Tate/Westside detail the importance of the leg thrust/arch in the BP. At what point in the lift do you fully go into the leg thrust arched back position? Set-up? Decent? On reversal?" Mark: Not that I am an expert on the Bench, but here goes: 1. Set up as tight as possible, when I am getting into position for the lift. At this point: my back is moderately arched, feet are a comfortable distance in front of me, flat on the floor, and my whole body is under tension before the hand-off. 2. As the weight comes down I arch up (no more than a 1/2 inch) to meet the bar, I think of myself as a spring being depressed, and keep tension on my legs, glutes and abs. In this positon I feel like I am performing a decline BP much more than I do a flat BP. 3. When given the "Press" command, I channel all of the tension in my lower body to drive the bar up. It is almost a thrusting of the hips. I am sure there are other, more knowledgeable people, on this list, who do this, or atleast describe it, better than me; but I hope this was of some help. Mitch Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:13:49 -0500 From: "William Frenick" Subject: Re: BP Leg Thrust What works best for me is to get my leg positioning at setup, using the leg drive to keep my shoulders pressed into the bench pad. I'll usually arch my butt off the bench, get my shoulders into the bench, then lower my butt down until it's resting lightly on the bench. Then I'll take a deep breath and unrack the weight. Nothing changes from there. From my own experience, if I tried to inforporate any leg thrust during the rep, I would usually lose my stability, or end up lifting my butt off the bench.. a no-no in a meet. I've recently done a re-hash on my bench form with great results, and these are the things I found helpful. Bill Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:27:22 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Donegan Subject: Re: Set-up? Decent? On reversal? You should set up by driving your upper back in to the bench with your legs, take your air in and get super tight before pulling the bar out of the racks (not pressing). At one of the seminars he kicked my legs out to show I wasn't staying tight. I'm sure by arch he meant holding your back in a static position but not making a huge arch. The first thing I think when I get the press command is to drive my upper back through the bench with my legs to start pushing myself away from the bar. Sean Donegan, Dallas, TX In article <3c45d46b.10037943@basic.bs.webusenet.com>, MauriceV@REMOVETHISFIRSTbellsouth.net (MauriceV) wrote: > On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:24:51 GMT, khobman@sk.sympaticoNOSPAM.ca (Keith > Hobman) wrote: > > > >By arching you are reducing the stroke and lifting the scapulae off the > >bench. This allows the scapulae to rotate at the bottom of the movement > >which reduces stress on the rotator cuff. In addition the reduced stroke > >eliminates some stress on the rotators. > > > >Frankly I do it cuz I can lift more weight this way. > > Frankly, you lift more weight because you're essentially cheating. > Anyone can lift more by reducing the range of motion. The question is, > do you work out to impress others with how much you lift, or do you > lift to get stronger? I'm gonna do another reply to this. 1. Arching reduces stress on rotators. This is a good thing. Extreme ROM is not a good thing on the bench press. You wanna make life difficult get some heavy dumbbells and do a flat bench with extreme ROM. You pin the scapulae and screw the rotators. Not a good thing. 2. Reduced ROM does not translate into more weight all the time. For example I can deadlift more off the floor than I can from 6" off the floor. In the bench there is a moderate decrease in ROM, but more importantly I change the angle of my press and lift off the scapulae. Since getting strong requires long periods of uninjured training arching is a good strategy. If you are not a competitive powerlifter I would suggest either benching like one or dumping the flat bench and doing decline and incline benches. HTH. -- Keith Hobman We who are about to squat salute you! (Lyle McDonald) On Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:40:41 GMT, MauriceV@REMOVETHISFIRSTbellsouth.net (MauriceV) wrote: >On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:24:51 GMT, khobman@sk.sympaticoNOSPAM.ca (Keith >Hobman) wrote: > > >>By arching you are reducing the stroke and lifting the scapulae off the >>bench. This allows the scapulae to rotate at the bottom of the movement >>which reduces stress on the rotator cuff. In addition the reduced stroke >>eliminates some stress on the rotators. >> >>Frankly I do it cuz I can lift more weight this way. > >Frankly, you lift more weight because you're essentially cheating. >Anyone can lift more by reducing the range of motion. The question is, >do you work out to impress others with how much you lift, or do you >lift to get stronger? > > I see some people have been getting their panties in a bind over my saying that Keith technically cheats. I know the rules allow the arching, blah blah, but that wasn't the point. Neither was the fact that benching with an arched back protects the scapulae and rotator cuffs. The point of it all is that very last sentence in his post, which all of you seem to have missed. After pointing out the safety benefits, he made it plain that all that as so much hoopla as far as he was concerned. "Frankly I do it cuz I can lift more weight this way." The point remains that he can lift more in this exercise because he has reduced the range of motion. So what if it's legal according to whatever body controls powerlifting? I thought a powerlifter would be interested to see how much he could lift, period, not how much he can lift according to the ever-changing rules. - Rules that keep changing to allow ever-weaker lifters to keep breaking records. How much could the Canadian champion lift if he had to do it the way it was done originally, with his back flat on the bench and without a canvas shirt that takes about half the weight? In article <3c485237.2125223@basic.bs.webusenet.com>, MauriceV@REMOVETHISFIRSTbellsouth.net (MauriceV) wrote: > On Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:40:41 GMT, > MauriceV@REMOVETHISFIRSTbellsouth.net (MauriceV) wrote: > > >On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:24:51 GMT, khobman@sk.sympaticoNOSPAM.ca (Keith > >Hobman) wrote: > > > > > >>By arching you are reducing the stroke and lifting the scapulae off the > >>bench. This allows the scapulae to rotate at the bottom of the movement > >>which reduces stress on the rotator cuff. In addition the reduced stroke > >>eliminates some stress on the rotators. > >> > >>Frankly I do it cuz I can lift more weight this way. > > > >Frankly, you lift more weight because you're essentially cheating. > >Anyone can lift more by reducing the range of motion. The question is, > >do you work out to impress others with how much you lift, or do you > >lift to get stronger? > > > > > > I see some people have been getting their panties in a bind over my > saying that Keith technically cheats. I know the rules allow the > arching, blah blah, but that wasn't the point. Neither was the fact > that benching with an arched back protects the scapulae and rotator > cuffs. > > The point of it all is that very last sentence in his post, which all > of you seem to have missed. After pointing out the safety benefits, he > made it plain that all that as so much hoopla as far as he was > concerned. "Frankly I do it cuz I can lift more weight this way." The > point remains that he can lift more in this exercise because he has > reduced the range of motion. > > So what if it's legal according to whatever body controls > powerlifting? I thought a powerlifter would be interested to see how > much he could lift, period, not how much he can lift according to the > ever-changing rules. - Rules that keep changing to allow ever-weaker > lifters to keep breaking records. How much could the Canadian champion > lift if he had to do it the way it was done originally, with his back > flat on the bench and without a canvas shirt that takes about half the > weight? Canvas shirts are not allowed in the IPF/CPU. My last remark was completely tongue in cheek in the original post, BTW. But to answer your question. I can bench 385 in competition form using a single ply poly shirt with an arch. (Hopefully this will go over 400 this year). I can bench 365 without the shirt in the gym with a pause. I did this recently and since I get between 20 and 30 lbs out of a shirt I'm hopefull it is an indication my bench is going up. I did the 385 in December and did 355 raw 3 weeks prior to that meet. In the past I have done as much as 335 in a flat back bench where I used a slightly narrower grip to get the triceps involved. I suspect I could get a little more up with a normal grip - possibly 345 or 355. So - I get between 20 and 30 lbs out of my shirt and between 10 and 20 lbs out of my arch. Using both I get somewhere between 30 and 50 lbs. To clear up some misconceptions which Maurice has. 1. The arch has always been legal and always will be legal. 2. Canvas shirts enable people who train to use them to lift more weight. If Maurice tried one without training for it he wouldn't be able to bench as much in a canvas shirt as he could raw. Personally I tried one once and couldn't even perform a bench with it. No magic in the shirt. 3. Poly are easier to use, but still have to be trained with to get effect out of. Since I train alone I use a relatively loose shirt and don't get all that much out of it. 4. Originally done? Powerlifting started in the 60's as an organized sport. What was common among the big benchers in those days was to wrap their elbows in tensor bandages and then cover that with tire inner tube rubber. They claimed between 50 and 120 lbs could be added to your bench this way. Is this what you are referring to? Two men did more to popularize the bench than anyone else in the 50's. New York's Marvin Eder and Vancouver's Doug Hepburn. Both benched with a noticeable arch. 5. Keith didn't get his panties in a wad, nor did most of the others. but Maurice appears a little tight... :^) HTH. -- Keith Hobman In article , "Rob" wrote: > Oh great. Just tell all the kids the "secrets" of how to get big benches so > they can sail past me in the gym :-\ At least you didn't let him in on > arching his back... > > Oops. > > Doh! LOL!! Most people can put between 5% and 10% onto their bench using techniques from powerlifters. That is - if you are doing a flat back / high chest bench you can not only bench more, but it is far safer on your rotator cuffs. Personally if I wasn't a powerlifter I wouldn't do the bench press - or at least not the way its generally taught. Here is a good way to add pounds to your bench and make it safer. Please note - train this way. The flat back bench press pins your scapulae to the bench and puts too much stress on the rotator cuffs. 1. Push your neck into the bench with your feet! (Hah. What an image!) Actually arching your back isn't always a good idea. It is possible to shorten the stroke of your bench press by doing so, but excessive arching can stress the lower back. The real key is to get your scapulae freed. This can be done with only a moderate arch. Try and put all your weight on your neck with your eyes under the bar. Tighten the butt up and push with your feet to drive your neck and shoulders into the padding of the bench. If you want to try arching bring your feet under you as much as you can. If you aren't worried about it leave your feet our in front of your knees while on the bench and simply push backwards with your feet. 'Lock' yourself on the bench with your weight on your neck and your feet pushing back. Your butt should be on the bench, but with no weight on it. 2. Shrug your shoulders down. Shorten the stroke. When the bar is at an arms length shrug down and try and get the bar as close to your chest as you can while keeping the arms locked. Try it and you'll see what I mean. You can take 2 inches off the stroke this way. 3. Spread the bar. Different people describe this a different way. Some people call it 'bending the bar into an inverted 'U' shape. Same thing. You take a deep breath and as you lift the bar off you imagine pulling it apart. Like there is a sleeve in the centre and you are trying to pull the bar apart or wider. As you lower the bar 'spread' it and then lower it to a point at the nipples or lower on your chest. This get the lats more involved in the press, especially the eccentric part. 4. Take the bar into your chest. Don't touch and go - lower the bar onto your chest. And pause it. For powerlifters this is a requirement of lifting. But it can also be a way to get more weight up. After the weight is taken off your arms and is born by the sternum pause just a second and then explode the bar off your chest. Start the explosion with your feet by pushing bar into your neck even harder. The legs and hips contribute to starting the bar off your chest. 5. Drive straight up. Don't do the inverted 'J'. Drive the weight straight up and keep the stroke as short as you can. If you want to see real experts in the bench do a search for Tate, Simmons and Westside Barbell. These people know benching. -- Keith Hobman "We who are about to squat, salute you!" (Lyle McDonald) In article , "The K Man" wrote: > > You'd be in the minority then I'd imagine. I am no powerlifter, but I do > know about it and I'd venture to guess you and the 2 guys you mentioned are > 3 examples of that way whereas they are 3,000 examples of much less > frequency. I'd be interested to hear hard numbers on that. See below. At least 3 current world record holders out of 11. And virtually every eastern bloc lifter. > > > Also, whats up with 'body parts'? There was nothing said about > > hypertrophy. The kid wants to increase his bench press. > > Body part can be appropriate although you are right in that he isn't > bodybuilding. However, bench press variations (DBs, angles, etc.), dips, > Triceps pressdowns all would be effective in terms of improving bench press > weights. So, is it OK to do flat bench BB presses 4-5 times per week but > not OK to train those other areas with the frequency? Say he were to bench > press itself once per week. Can he just ignore that he is stressing > primarily pectorals, Triceps, and Deltoids and go train then normally? Body > part focus still applies. Bench day = chest, shoulders, Triceps day to me. > > > Personally I think the saying of the Russian coach Medeveyev applies to > > the bench as well as the press. He said, "If you want to press more - > > press more." > > To a point. It is not like throwing darts where the more you practice the > better you get. There is an element of recovery, growth, and improvement > that needs to take place during rest times. That quote in and of itself > would lead to overtraining and frustration more than great bench pressers > IMO. Could be. But you really think like a builder. You have to keep your ego in check and lift within yourself if you train this often. Coach Boris Sheiko has all his experienced lifters bench a minimum of 4 days per week and many of those days they do two bench press sessions per week. The best powerlifter going right now (by Wilkes formula) uses this system - Sivokan. But they never go near failure and most of their reps are done at 80% of their 1RM or lower. In North America Louie Simmons and his Westside crew do only two main bench press workouts per week, but Louie does 'recovery' workouts with lighter benches and may do these an additional two or three days per week. His crew is famous for their bench. However, in all fairness to what you say they only go heavy twice a week. Their other days are much lighter. Taken all in all though, since MacDonald still holds world records and including Stanaszek who follows a similiar system to Sheiko, at least 3 of the 11 current IPF world records in the bench press were done by lifters who have trained more than three days per week on the bench at some time in their careers. At least three and this is among the three lift records. I suspect Carlsson also has trained more than three at some time too, but don't know for sure. As far as your 'bodyparts' argument. You think like a bodybuilder. If you see my list of what to do when benching you'll see that a powerlifter tries to bring everything he can to the table to move the weight up. The bench press is a total body movement, although I'll grant you the chest/shoulders and arms are the primary movers. -- Keith Hobman "We who are about to squat, salute you!" (Lyle McDonald) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:00:44 -0500 From: "William Frenick" Subject: Re: Changing Bench Pressing Technique Greetings, I've "made the switch" so to speak, from elbows out to elbows in, and found much more stability, better bar positioning (able to bring the bar lower on the chest) and increased internal pressure (after taking a deep breath) in the elbows down technique. Unfortunately, it took a couple meets (thank goodness for meet videos) to realize why I was making good lifts in training and failing at meets... I was reverting to elbows out at meets, and losing the lift right off the chest. With elbows down, I feel like I get a strong steady start and carry it through to lockout. I still do elbows out movements, with dumbbells and a barbell, to hit the chest directly as an assistance movement, and I make sure to work the front and rear delts separately to keep them healthy. I think it's important to hit angles that aren't part of a competition bench... like inclines, etc. Perhaps if I only did elbows in benching, and nothing else, I might experience a problem down the road. I'm not willing to find out! Another thing I noticed since switching is prior to elbows in, I would consistently develop pain under one or both of my collar bones (it felt like a tendon, but I'm no physiology expert). Since switching to elbows down, this pain has gone away completely. Thanks, Bill Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:36:27 +0100 From: Niels Stūrkjūr Subject: Re: Changing Bench Pressing Technique I use the elbows out style. With a low barplacement you will have to tuck a little to keep your elbows straight under the bar, but they flare out as the bar moves on the J-curve. I have tried elbows in but there just aint the same power off the chest. I think the elbows-in has become popular in the USA due to the multi-ply lifters. Go to the IPF World Bench and you will see more elbows-out lifters. /Niels ate: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:45:34 -0500 From: Taggert Doll Subject: RE: Changing Bench Pressing Technique Focusing on touching the bar to my abs has naturally brought my elbows in significantly. Bringing my head off the bench helped me get this form down as well. Tagg Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:49:58 -0500 From: "Clauss, Mike" Subject: RE: Changing Bench Pressing Technique Add to that pressing the bar straight up instead of using the J technique and a lot of the shoulder pain will go away. If a lifter is having shoulder pain look at the path of the bar, if it drifts over their face then their delts are the strong link, have them work their tris to take the strain off the shoulders. Many people do this backwards, their shoulders get sore so they assume that they are weak and work them harder. Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:49:22 -0400 From: "William Frenick" Subject: Re : Subject: Bench test day (long) Greetings Lars, Here's the program CT gave me. It's a 4 week program, and I think it was designed to shock me off my plateau, but I've used it multiple times with a lot of success. I think the key is good rest between cycles, a good speed day ( I do the 10 sets of 3 instead of the 9 sets of 3 listed in the program), and LOTS of heavy tri work. It's based on pin presses, and I thought it was geared for working the lockout, but I always fail on the chest (I lift raw) and this helped more then anything else I ever did. I went from being stuck at 280 for years to just hitting 330 after 3 cycles. For speed day, I used to rig my purple bands to dumbbells on the ground. My speed sets are always very fast and I was doing 135 bar weight plus purple bands for a total weight at the top (I weighed it) of 205. I was fast with these, so I tried looping the band behind my back, holding the ends in my hands, and I've been doing that since I'm slower with this setup (a 3 rep set takes just about 3 seconds, which is slow for me) so I have some room to improve. Bands for speed day are awesome! Here's the program, in it's original form. I believe CT based in on my previous 280 max, and took 117% of it, to get 320 for the pin press weight. If I used the 117% for the second cycle, based on a 315 max, it would have been 362 for the pin press weight, and I felt that way too heavy for me, so I bumped it to 330, then 350 for the third cycle. I take it by feel. It seems that I'll end up getting pretty close when I test to what the pin press weight was. For example, when my max was 280, and I did the pin presses with 320, I tested and got 315. When it was 330, I tested and doubled 300 pretty easily, and when I did the pin presses with 350, I got 330. The funny thing is, when I get to Week 3 where the pin presse are from 8 inches from lockout, I'm lucky if I get 1 rep... then come back to hit close to that on a full rep on test day. The singles after the pin presses were a huge help, too. Really let you work on form, etc. Ok, enough from me... here's the program: Week 1 Take a power rack and set the bar around 4 inches from full lockout, Take 320 and do it for as many reps as possible with contest grip. Then use 65% of 320 and do 15 singles off your chest with a pause. take 20 seconds between each single. Use your contest grip. Week 2 Set the bar in the rack so that its 6 inches from full lockout and do as many reps as possible till failure with 320 , Then do 75% of 320 for 10 singles resting 20 seconds between each Week 3 again set the bar now at 8 inches from lockout and try for as many reps as possible with 320 contest grip.. Then do 85% of 320 for 5-8 singles Week 4 rest Week 5 Take a test and see what yu can get.... Make sure yu get in a lot of tri assistance work and some delt raises and make sure yu keep going with a speed day 50% x 9 triples,,,,, make sure that yu have at least 3 days apart from each bench day.... Personally, the assistance I do is: Triceps Close Grip partials - Take a close grip, and lower the bar until your elbows are at the same height at your chest, then press up. Use heavy weights for 3 sets of 8 100 rep tris for recovery laying DB extensions JM presses (instead of the close grip partials) Rear delts face pulls (these are great) bent Db flys Lats seated rows pulldowns bent barbell rows. I used to do front delt work (plate raises) but found I got enough front delt work from all the pressing in the actual workouts. That's it. Most workouts I'll end with a couple sets of elbows-high, wide grip benches for 10 reps with 225 and 20 reps with 135 to get some blood there. I hope this helps someone as much as it has helped me! I plan to use 375 for the pin press weight next cycle, and 400 for the following cycle, and if I keep progressing, I'm hoping to hit something in the high 3's in my September meet. Or at least make the attempt! Bill