Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 16:55:25 -0800 From: "Dean Reece" Subject: Re: Strength_List: floor presses You do them lying on the floor in the rack. You need to position the pins so that you can still touch your elbows to the floor. You set the bar so that you can unrack it, then its just down and up, no pause. Its just a bench press lying on the floor. Make sure you relax your lower body and have your back flat to eliminate leg drive and arching. Dean >>> jarbo01@hotmail.com 01/06/00 04:28PM >>> whats the correct way to do a floor press,how can those guys with big rib cages get under the bar.thats if you set the bar loaded on the floor first.i find it hard to slide under the bar,unless i am just uneducated about floor presses.thank you. Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 20:27:23 -0600 From: Bob Mann Subject: Re: Strength_List: floor presses At 08:12 PM 1/6/00 -0500, John King wrote: >I find that with the type of rack we have I can place the safety bars which >go all the way across the rack on both sides....and placing the bars at the >lowest level ... I can have the barbell resting on the bars.....and can >slide under the barbell and ....... at that level my elbows are just >touching the floor......... I am pressing the barbell up off the bars and >then down to the bars.... is this acceptable?? any problems with doing them >that way? I do find that I have to use a fairly wide grip this way.... > >John King > You should be supporting the weight at all times during a set. I use the bars at the lwest setting but my arms are just long enough that the bar doesn't touch the rack. You might try setting up on a thin platform which is what we do in our gym. - -- Bob Mann http://members.home.net/bobmann Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 03:13:35 GMT From: "Wes Jones" Subject: Re: Strength_List: floor presses Use the power rack and set the hooks on the outside of the rack so that you can take the bar in the top position or use spotters to hand the bar off to you. I go down until my elbows touch the floor then press back up to the top. Except for those in the lighter classes, very few powerlifters would be able to get into position to do floor presses as you describe. Wes Jones Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 23:51:35 -0600 From: Roger Subject: Re: Strength_List: floor presses At 04:55 PM 1/6/00 -0800, you wrote: >You do them lying on the floor in the rack. You need to position the pins so that you can still touch your elbows to the floor. You set the bar so that you can unrack it, then its just down and up, no pause. Its just a bench press lying on the floor. Make sure you relax your lower body and have your back flat to eliminate leg drive and arching. > >Dean Why don't you pause? I do. I pause and sort of balance the weight while I relax my tris then initiate the movement from that position...I thought that is why the floor press was supposed to be good for starting strength. Roger Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 07:16:13 -0500 From: "John Koch" Subject: Re: Strength_List: floor presses Roger is right, you should pause the floor press for a split second. John Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:29:24 -0600 From: Roger Subject: Re: Strength_List: WSB RAW bench At 01:49 PM 1/26/00 -0600, you wrote: >I missed sumthin'... What are Tate presses? Like J.M.'s? > >Thanks, > >Scott Shafer Take a pair of dumbells. Lay on a bench or use an incline. Press the dumbells up while they are touching each other, with your palms facing each other, at the top you turn the dumbells so the handles become one bar. At the goheavy training forum someone posted a jpg of them. Roger Broeg Burlington Iowa Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 20:50:19 -0500 From: "Jeffry Deigan" Subject: Strength_List: Re: Tate presses Scott Shafer wrote: > >I missed sumthin'... What are Tate presses? Like J.M.'s? Since Dave Tate is probably too busy, I will give a try at describing the movement: Lean back onto a bench or something appropriate so that your upper chest is nearly horizontal (the lower torso can be angled down somewhat, this is not important). At Westside they were using the pad in the front of the glute-ham raise bench. Put two dumbells on your chest so that they are "standing up" and touching each other like so: OO || OO Your elbows should be sticking out towards the sides. Press up the dumbells maintaining continuous contact of the lower bells. At the top the dumbells will be in a straight line like so: O-OO-O When I was at Westside in September Dave Tate mentioned that he found the name of this exercise to be quite humorous as he did not invent the exercise. He thought that the name came from his describing it on the internet one too many times. Jeff Deigan Yonkers, NY Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 07:39:26 -0800 (PST) From: Kevin Manning Subject: Re: Strength_List: bench weak points - --- jmh50@daimlerchrysler.com wrote: > > this is definitely a contrarian viewpoint but I have > to agree with wade. I > feel that if the bar drifts towards the face during > the press, it due due > to weak delts. This is from a Louie Simmons' article called "How to Bench Press 500 Easy": "The bar should be pushed back up in a straight line, not back over the face. This requires strong triceps. This path is a shorter distance and requires no shoulder rotation, which is also much safer. The barbell will always seek the strongest muscle group; that's why most push the bar over the face. Their delts are stronger than their triceps. But it should be the reverse. One sees a lot of shoulder and pec injuries, but seldom do you see a triceps injury. Why? The triceps have never been pushed to their maximum, potential." Think about it, when you lower the bar to your chest and then only push with your delts the bar will head towards your face. If you only push with your tri's the bar will head towards the feet. Another opinion, Kevin Manning North Andover, MA Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:22:38 EST From: PWRFRK650@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: bench weak points I may not be an expert, but if you push the bar towards the face you have weak pec minors and triceps. The pec major pulls it up and the delts being stronger then the tris follow suit. This is usually the case when a lifter does way to much incline presses.. Their normal path is to go over the face.. To correct this i usually have my guys do speed work for 2 weeks on a slight decline bench. You wanna think about throwing the fist towards the feet like a martial arts type of punch. It takes a while to teach your self this technique if yu have been an over the face guy for a long time.. Also It depends on the shirt you use. An inzer inadvertenly makes yu touch high and push towards face. A franz design helps yu touch low and push straight. Chris Taylor Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 11:35:25 EST From: PWRFRK650@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: bench weak points In a message dated 2/16/00 11:28:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, JBL@rubicon.no writes: >What do you think is the weakness when the bar drifts towards the the face >during the press? Some say shoulders, others say tris? >Jan >Oslo, Norway Jan, It's really not a weakness but a unbalance of strength between the tris and the delts.. If you think about how the delt functions its to move foward like a front lateral bringing the humerous forward, the tricep extends the humerous at the elbow. If the delts is slightly stronger it will raise the bar forward towards the eyes before the tris can contract hence the bar traveling over the face.... The tris are either not contracting explosively enough or they are just plain weaker. Think about the range of motion the delt has to make and the range that the tricep has to make. The delt only moves a short distance and the tris have to move alot further, so if they dont snap it up quick enough the bar goes forward.... Hey maybee i am an expert LOL. CT Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:47:52 -0500 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Strength_List: Neat training news... I know this really doesn't matter but, it was kind of a big achievement = for me on Friday. I have been doing the "Horace" benching thing (Horace = Lane does this so I call it his) where you start with a 25lb plate on = each side, do 5 reps, then add another 25 and so on. Well, I have only = been getting up to the 295 mark and making my 5 reps then I would come = back down (I was certain I didn't have enough for a further jump to = 345). Friday I decided to try it....figuring I would get 1-2 reps (you = are pretty tired by this point...at least I am). Well, I got all 5 reps = pretty clean!! I went back down and got all my reps on descending sets = too. I really like this...it is helping my bench a lot (along with some other = stuff). Give em' a try and see what you think of it. It is tough work = and I wouldn't recommend them after a full blown bench workout but, if = you have a "light" day then maybe just try this for a change. Make sure = to keep you rest only as long as it takes to change the weights and get = set again though...that is part of what makes them tough. Good liftin' all - -wade Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 11:15:59 -0500 From: jmh50@daimlerchrysler.com Subject: Strength_List: pyramid training I got a chance today to read zatsiorsky's book on strength training. I highly recommend it. the section called "timing in strength training" is awesome. it talks about how pyramind training is no longer used by elite weightlifters. it makes alot of sense. all the sets used up to a max tire you out and the dropping sets are useless due to the set in fatigue. so instead of benching 135,155,185,205,225,245,265,285,315,275,245,225,185,135. maybe do 135,225,275,315,225. all singles past 135. this is the way I interpreted it. the section also talks about length of sessions and recovery time. some is above my head but it still is very interesting reading. Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:12:30 -0500 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Strength_List: pyramid training Pavel Tsatsouline also talks about this type of thing in his "Beyond Stretching" book. I started minimizing the number of warm ups and it has helped to some degree. Pavel also talks about some studies that were done where athletes performed better with no warm up (save on the deadlifts). I agree wholeheartedly about the minimizing of the work up to the weight. Basically I have only been using 1 or 2 warm ups anymore to my work out weights...I like it. - -wade From: John F Cale Subject: Strength_List: training warm-up and when to do fast movements in workout (was pyramid thread) I hear what you all are saying about warming up; I've got Science and Practice, too. But, I have a lot of trouble hitting depth on my squats (I go below parallel) if I don't do a good warm-up. I find that a bit of general warm-up helps with that without taking too much energy. I walk to the gym (5 minutes), then do with a light weight, 1/4 squats 1x10, half squats 1x10, all the way down 1x10. It doesn't make me real tired and helps me get down. John Cale Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2000 08:36:53 -0600 From: Bill Frenick Subject: Strength_List: Re: bench question: John, I don't know your experience level (I'm a beginner), but my sticking point was right off the chest as well. I got longer term improvement from the lifts the more experienced lifters suggested, but the thing that I did that got me the most immediate results was to adjust my form. I was basically a flat-back bencher. Having relatively long arms, my bench stroke was way to long. After seeing an article detailing Colin Rhodes' bench technique, I gave it a shot. It involved increasing my arch, widening my grip, and lowering the bar not to the chest, but slightly below, taking advantage of the arch peak. Also, a big help for me was to keep strict attention to keeping my shoulder blades pinched together through the entire movement. It drastically shortened my bench stroke, and pretty much eliminated the bottom portion of my bench, thus eliminating most of my sticking point. Using the excercizes everyone else mentioned in conjunction with some technique change (if it suits your body style) you should see good results. It worked for me. Best of luck, Bill Here is a URL for a 1RM bench press calculator http://www.angelfire.com/ar/mathgod/bench.html The calculator is intended for use with the bench press. Using it for other exercises may not be applicable. Hope this helps. On Sat, 25 Mar 2000 20:47:02 GMT, tharagor@excite.com (Tharagor) wrote: >I have found a program and a website that have single rep max >calculators based on number the number of reps a person can do in a >single set of a given weight. Does anyone here know where I can find >more information on the calculation? > >I've anylized the javascript on the website and it uses different >constants for each number of reps but it only goes up to 15 reps and I >can discern no clear pattern. > >Thanks in advance. > >-- Tharagor Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:24:52 -0500 From: "Allen M" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Bench weakness and suggested excersizes What you describe sounds like chest weakness, but the problem could be where the bar touches. It should land at the bottom of the chest / top of the abdomen. If your groove is good, then the chest is the problem. Don't confuse a "developed" chest for a strong one. Try doing illegally wide grip bench presses and/ or pin presses. These helped me to get strong at the bottom better than anything I have ever tried. One (not the only) of the reasons that the Westside system emphasizes triceps so much is bacause they use bench shirts. If you lift raw, you need stronger pecs to help you get the bar moving off of your chest. Allen Mays Lubbock, TX From: "Feairheller, Philip" > I am trying to identify my weakness on bench. I originally just assumed it > was triceps because I never really trained them hard, and all the Westside > articles explain that triceps are usually the culprit. Well, my triceps are > getting stronger, but my bench is not. > > When I miss a bench single, I just get buried at the bottom. If I can get > the thing 4 inches off my chest, it will go up, but when I miss, its like it > is glued to my pecs. I thought this meant chest strength, but my pecs have > always been over-developed compared to the rest of my upper body > > Any thoughts or excersize suggestions? > Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 09:38:51 -0400 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: Re: Bench trick Okay, it probably won't be anything new to most but, it is one of those things I just kind of forgot about. Also, I don't know how effective it is unless you utilize that low bar elbows in groove but, here it is. When you get the bar out of the rack at arms length, rotate your elbows inward and hold them there. If you keep this orientation then it will put the bar real low on your abdominals and will also keep your elbows tucked in close to your body. It feels awkward at first but, as you get used to it the groove provides a ~great~ deal of power and it is much easier, IMO, to "fight" at the top (if necessary) with your triceps than if you have your elbows out. I have heard some people contest this point as it "...puts way too much torque on your wrists and forearms..." but, in truth it really doesn't. I have no problems with either and never did any extra stretching or accomodating to achieve it. It helps if you twist your grip just slightly to accentuate it but, it won't torque your wrist off if you are worried about that. For what it is worth... - -wade of BORG Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:44:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Matt Madsen Subject: Re: Strength_List: Shoulder that bench! > I need some exercises that will develope strength in the > shoulders. My shoulders are lagging. Are the only things > that work shoulder presses??? If you simply want to work your anterior delts (as used in a bench press), you can use shoulder presses or bench presses. If you want to build up the other heads of the deltoid, you'll need lat raises, hang cleans, etc. > If so should I use a barbell or dumbells??? Set reps??? I'd probably just start with some light lateral raises and bent-over lateral raises and go from there. Matt Madsen Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 07:50:47 -0600 From: Sean Anderson Subject: Re: Strength_List: Benching with upper back Ken (Squatboat):: Two years ago at the Westside "Secretsd of Training" seminar I asked Louie Simmons about this. The full notes are posted at but here is the portion having to do with benching and using lats to lwoer the bar: Hoped that helped . . . Andy Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 16:45:52 -0700 From: Jason Burnell Subject: Re: JM Press Steven Dana wrote: > > Jason, can someone here please put the JM questions to rest once and for all with a really good description of the excercise??? thanks in advance to all who want to take a stab at it. > > Steve Dana Lie on a bench - this is very important. Take a close grip with the beginnings of the knurlings. Take the bar at arms length like the start of a close grip bench Put the elbows out at a 45 degree angle - this is VERY important - must be 45 no more and no less. At this angle you take the shoulders out of the movement and it also allows a greater weight to be used. As the bar descends to the chin or throat, keep the elbows following a line of 45 degrees from the body. Note: the elbows must not drop below the rib cage. They must remain up towards the heavens or the ceiling for those that train indoors. When you get it right the bar will stop as the forearm rests on the bicep. IF your elbows are up and you get it right, the bar will sort of hang there above your face as your bicep(resting on forearm) and the tricep tendon supports the weight. He noted that it may help to keep the wrist "cocked" at the bottom (ie flexors contracted) After that just press straight up in the same path as you descended...Well, not YOU but the bar. - -- Jason W. Burnell STRENGTH ONLINE: http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/ Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 08:29:27 -0400 From: "Clauss, Mike" Subject: Re: JM Press >When you get it right the bar will stop as the forearm rests on the >bicep. IF your elbows are up and you get it right, the bar will sort of >hang there above your face as your bicep(resting on forearm) and the >tricep tendon supports the weight. He noted that it may help to keep the >wrist "cocked" at the bottom (ie flexors contracted) This is where I was messing it up. Once you get the groove, your biceps stop the bar for you. The bar just kind of hovers there, you're not trying to hold it or stop it from coming down to your face. It's a weird feeling and it makes the start of the push much harder for me, but I like it. Mike Southfield, Mich. Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:51:48 -0400 From: "Dasko, Dan" Subject: Strength_List: Ratio of JM Presses to Bench Presses How much can you JM Press versus how much can you bench press. I think I've found it. I tried JM Presses for the first time yesterday. With the 45lb bar, I had trouble doing 5 reps in strict form. Eventually, I cheated and changed my form slightly to make the exercise more like a close grip bench press. So, I'm wondering how much can you (anyone who wants to answer) JM Press versus Bench Press? Dan Dasko Sr. Database Analyst Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:00:31 EDT From: RANBERNDT@aol.com Subject: Re: Strength_List: Ratio of JM Presses to Bench Presses > How much can you JM Press versus how much can you bench press. I'm new to these as well. I'm up to a whopping 135lbs in strict form. I bench around 390. My tri's are still a little sore today from Saturday's workout. My strength in these is gaining fast. I am starting to see how this exercise can really help the bench press. Randy Berndt From: "Jan Baggerud Larsen, Teamleder 8366" Subject: RE: Strength_List: Ratio of JM Presses to Bench Presses After 3 workouts of doing the JM press correctly I'm up to about 110 lbs for 5 reps. I can bench 300 RAW. BTW I watched the revised WSB bench tape yesterday (again) and it seems like George Halbert is not doing the JM press like described in the PLUSA article????? It could be the angle of the camera, but it looks like he is dropping his elbows below chest level. Anyway Louie says JM has done 530 for 3 reps. That's incredible!!! Jan Oslo, Norway Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 09:41:52 -0700 From: "Dean Reece" Subject: RE: Strength_List: Ratio of JM Presses to Bench Presses I did these yesterday *correctly* (I think) for the first time and worked up to 135 for sets of eight. My bench is in the 390-400 range. The interesting thing is that I felt very unsteady doing them, kind of like the stabilizers aren't ready to go yet. It feels like a motion that you can improve on with time and technique and as the stabilizers improve, and your ratio of bench to JM press should get closer in time. Kenny Patterson is at 70% for a triple, and for me right now that would be 280 for a triple. I cannot even fathom perching this much weight over my teeth. Guess I better get over that, huh? Dean Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 10:48:12 -0500 From: "Wes Jones" Subject: Re: Strength_List: Bench The 6 most important things that you can do to increase your bench is 1. Work your triceps 2. Do speed work 3. evaluate your form- take the bar to the top of the stomach, push straight up. 4. Use different grips in training 5. work your triceps 6. work your triceps. Wes Jones Pikeville, KY Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 07:38:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Shawn T Bellon Subject: Strength_List: Ray Benemerito BP TECHNIQUE This was taken from the USAPL FORUM. Ray sent me this message but then posted it publicly to Wade Johnson. It's pretty cool. I tried it yesterday for a light set of 10 reps. IT WAS GREAT. My stroke was about 2" shorter. Now use the breathing technique with Collin Rhodes' program. BIG BENCH!!! +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Wade, "I first saw Tony using it in past nationals/worlds ( not breathing durings reps) he gets alot more explosion from it, my first thoughts were I'd pass out, but I watched his set up and picked up a couple of good pointers: "before getting a hand off take a big breath and hold( I inhale with my mouth so I can expand lower rib cage, taking in air through the nostrils just fills up my upper lungs and causes me dizziness- you'll have to see what works for you) as the hand off person starts guiding the bar to your sweetspot, start releasing your air so the bar settles lower and cuts off your distance by the time the bar is motionless,your chest should be flat(out of air) and shoulder blades pinched back and chin to your chest to get the best arch by now you should get the start signal and thats when you get your last breath of lower air again, that last breath should tighten your form even more and especially cut off some more distance for the bar to travel it'll take a while to get used to it, but it helped my bench tremendously, you can use it for reps or singles good luck Ray" Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 09:43:36 +0200 From: Jan Baggerud Larsen Produktsjef 8366 Subject: Strength_List: Bench press and pulling the bar apart I've read some WSB articles where Louie recommends "pulling the bar apart" when benching. I never really thought much about it before I read Dave's article on test.net. I've tried it a couple of times now both for speed benches and board presses. Wow what a difference!!! I feel much more stable and powerful, it's easier to tuck the shoulder blades under the body, my elbows tuck in more naturally and it's easier to get the bar low on the chest. Also for the first time it feels like I'm actually pulling the bar down to the chest and at the same time build up energy. It will take some time to get used to this but I'm on my way! Jan Oslo, Norway Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2000 15:20:10 -0700 From: "Ryan Nielson" Subject: ME Close grip incline day >My max bench is 290 and according to some Westside percentages my ME close >grip incline should be around 190-200. Last night I tested it and I >doubled >225 and got one rep with 245 with incline close grips. Do any of you have >thoughts on what this points to as my weak point? Chest? On my max >benches >I stall about 1/3 of the way up. > >Thanks for any input. > >Tagg >Lansing, MI I'm no expert here, but here is my thoughts on this from what I know. Most people are weak in triceps and lats and It's really hard to tell what your weakpoint is without watching you lift in a meet. Things to watch is how high or low you touch the bar to your chest. Do you keep your elbows in close or do they tend to fall out wide when you max. Is the bar being pressed in a straight up line from the side or curving to over your face at lockout. You need to have an impartial person observe this because you may not realize on your own. Is your close grip max at 90% of your regular grip max. I do know this. My best bench is 405 and my best close grip incline is only 285 so I am not good at these. I'm very strong in the triceps after focusing on them in the last 2 years exclusively I've done 250 for 3 reps in the JM Press recently. I am not as strong in chest and shoulders and lats though. Also on the inclines are you touching the bar very high on your chest when doing these (up on neck level) and doing them very steep on the incline. That makes a big difference. I read recently that part of the benefit of using the close grip incline is to take your lats more out of the movement and to hit the triceps and shoulders more so that should give you some idea. I realizing that my weaknesses I think are shoulders and maybe lats, but brining up a weakpoint exposes another weakpoiont so it's a neverending process I guess. But I also stalled the same as you at about 1/3 of the way up at my last meet. Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2000 09:38:30 -0700 From: rniel@micron.net Subject: RE: Bench Press question > Subject: Bench Press question > Well, I'm not a powerlifter, more like a powerlifter in training, well how > about a powerlifter wannabe? In either case, my squat and deadlift training is > coming along nicely albeit slowly as I attempt to get back to my all-time best > lifts of 3 years ago. However, my bench press is in one word - ugly. So, as > per advice offered often on the list, I started doing less volume and working > my triceps more. However, what I found today is that on certain triceps > exercises, I rock and on others I just lay there like a wet noodle. For > example, on Tuesday, I struggled hard with 3 reps at 195. Today, I did close > grip bench press hands ~ 4" apart, and blew 135 up for 10 like it was make of > paper. I ran out of time, but I felt like I could have probably done 185 just > as easy. When I bench, I use pinkies on the rings, lower the bar to my > diaphram(sp) and struggle with the whole darned lift. So, I can do triceps > pushdowns with the whole 150lb stack with ease, I can close-grip bench way > easy. However, JM presses are very tough, and that weird lying dumbell triceps > extension where you keep the dumbells touching ... I could only grind out 5-6 > reps with 35lb dumbells. So the big question is what's up? Should I do more > shoulder work(I don't really do any now)? And muscle rags aside, do the > different triceps exercises work the muscle differently thus making it > necessary to do a combination of exercises? > > Whew, all help is extremely appreciated. > You need to bring up your triceps with more extension exercises like JM Press, SkullCrushers, Dumbell Tris and don't do cable pushdowns so much. Only do the tricep exercises that you are not good at and hate to do. That will bring up what's weak. Next in line Shoulder work and lat work is very important. Not just lat pulldowns all the time, but rowing movements because this is the reverse of a bench so it works the right area. The stronger back you have the better your form will get. Don't do your closegrips at 4Inches because your elbows will have no choice but to flare out to the sides and this only works your chest mostly. Do about 14Inches with a close grip and keep the elbows in. Touch the bar very low on the chest and press in a straight line, not over your face. Squeeze your shoulder blades together and hold that position. That's my 2 cents worth.