Subject: Re: Squats and heavy training Date: 5 Jun 91 02:32:50 GMT My humble opinions based on experience and lots of experiments follow: When you start out with squats you should be patient and stay at a low weight until you really get used to the movement and are able to do are proper squat (head up, back straight) smoothly. Once you have the form down THEN you can start increasing the weight again patiently. I have always found the squat a little bothersome for my lower back but it definately is more beneficial then the hack squat or the leg press. Another thing that i found is that your squat can improve just by training the "assist" muscles like the hamstrings, the lower back, and the abdominals. Also i found that when i did full squats i only needed one set for a warmup whereas for the heavier half-squats i needed sets for warming up. This was probably because my knees had no problems whatsover while my lower back was always a little "tender". One final item is training frequency. I found that as my quads grew stronger and the training sessions became more intense i needed more rest. I would take 5 days rest between quad training sessions, sometimes 7 days. Well, thats all i have to say. I'm sure there are some "unbelievers" out there but the squat is definately a very beneficial exercise and one should definately do them as long as injuries are avoided. Aleck H Alexopoulos Subject: Re: Squats and heavy training Date: 6 Jun 91 21:37:17 GMT Squats have been a very beneficial exercise for me. I also am an ectomorph, and I've found that squats are the ONLY exercise that has been effective in increasing the size of my quads. I've been doing them seriously now for about 5 years, and have never really had an injury associated with them. One time I did pull a muscle in my mid back, but this was when doing squats on a Smith machine and I was stepping "forward" of the weight, intentionally (something I will not do again). Anyway, the pull was not bad and all effects from it had disappeared within a couple months. Others have mentioned the importance of form. I generally follow a pattern of 3 to 5 days between quad workouts, with every other session being heavy, low rep (say, 10 X 5 X 5 X 10, followed by some other quad exercises, like leg press, extensions, Hackes, etc, usually finishing off with a couple 15 rep sets), alternated with a lighter, higher rep session (say, 15 X 10 X 15 X 15, followed by two or three sets of other quad exercises). I do more sets on the heavy days. I also throw in a very high rep day now and then (say, three 20 - 30 rep sets of squats), and a very heavy day now and then (say, 10 X 6 X 3 X 3 X 3 X 10). Many people feel that 5, 6 or 7 days between quad workouts is more appropriate, but that just doesn't work for me. By the way, on the days I go heavy on quads, I go light on hams, and vice versa. A few other things: I do NOT use knee wraps, on the theory that the extra weight that that would allow is just that much more stress on my back (obviously if you have knee problems, this may not be right for you); breathing is important; concentration and proper form is vital - if you're thinking about something else when you're about to start your set, step back and clear your mind; warm up before going heavy; stretch your hams and quads a bit between each set. Well, that's what works for me, but everyone is different. Alan Subject: Re: Squats and heavy training Date: 9 Jun 91 15:28:41 GMT In article <1991Jun6.194038.14928@athena.mit.edu> mowu@bosworth.mit.edu (Mike Owu) writes: >In article <1991Jun4.123533.179@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu> wbp@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu writes: >> >>[stuff deleted] >> >>But let's get to the point of this diatribe. How many of you out there >>benefitted (sp?) from squats? How many were injured, in either the lower >>back or the knees? Why? What was your form like? Weights used? Training >>frequency? I gradually developed bad knees from "parallel squats" and I >>don't really know why -- too heavy too soon, maybe? >> >[more stuff deleted] >> >>Bill >> > > I've been squatting for three years now. I have always squatted heavy, using low reps (nothing over ten). At the moment I have managed a 210kg single, and have done ten reps with 180kg. ALL my reps are done just below parallel - if I don't go down that far, I don't count it as a rep. I squat one to two times a week - if I squat less than once a week, I tend to get stiff legs, but it's more a muscular stiffness than a joint thing. I also do lots of leg extensions (after squats), and leg curls. I have never had knee trouble. I put this down to three things :- - Good form. I never bounce a heavy squat (the thought of it makes me shudder), and I always do lots of warm-ups. - I never use a weight I can't handle. If I can't do a decent rep below parallel, then it's too heavy. If anything, I tend to err on the side of being too light (ie. not pushing for the maximum poundages each week). - Genetics. I have quite thick knees, the joints themselves being quite big. I consider my knees to be quite sturdy, and I think this is the main reason that they never hurt. Something that some of us at the gym have noticed is that people who do partial squats ie. not going to parallel, often end up with knee trouble. We have a theory that partial squats tend to stress the ligaments, while full squats (below parallel) stress the muscle. This may be wrong, but consider that one often uses less weight for full squats. As for my opinion on squats, for me they work quite well. However, and I think that this is the most important "rule" in weight-training, squats do not suit everyone. I have friends who can't squat at all (they tend to be tall and slim). In this case, one simply has to find some other exercise that does work (personally I get nothing from bench - I can't lift much and my pecs don't get pumped), it's unfortunate, but not the end of the world. My advice - try squats (I think they they are one of the best exercises, since they stress the whole body). Make sure that you use good form and don't go silly with the weights. Use a good belt, and knee wraps might help (I can't really comment here, as I have never used them). Also, I find that if I skimp on my food, then I don't squat as much. If I do eat less than normal, then I find that my squat is affected more adversely than other exercises. Simon. Subject: Re: Correct form for squats Date: 8 Aug 91 06:25:52 GMT > > I have seen people do squats with heels flat on the floor, and also > with heels raised with the help of some support ( ie, standing with > heels on a slab ). Is there any difference between those two? On the > illustrations on the gym I go ( school gym ), it says the later is > wrong as it tends to re-distribute the weights unevenly... > > Also, is there any difference ( if any ) between squats with weight kept > on your front shoulders and the more "normal" weights on back? > > Any comments? Squating with heels flat on the floor makes you bend over further to get down to competition squatting level so puts more strain on your back and works your bum harder. Using a block under your heels is OK but it puts more stress on the lower leg area near your knees and doesn't strain your lower back as much. I have been squatting flat on the floor for some time and am changing to using a block more often as I need to concentrate on my on the muscles down near my knee (your Vastus medialis etc) as my upper thigh is leaving the rest of my body behind! (They're already a few inches bigger than my waist!) Changing the width of your feet when squating hits muscles differently as well. Gary. Subject: Re: Leg Presses and Breathing Date: 30 Oct 91 05:34:51 GMT The proper breathing pattern when doing FULL RANGE leg presses is: Exhale on the way down Inhale on the way up If your not doing full range (i.e. knees dont go to shoulders) then you can breath any way you want. As for the range of motion the general rule is : The larger range of motion the better. Let me repeat that, THE LARGER THE RANGE OF MOTION THE BETTER Half reps are BS. Especially in the leg press. If you're not getting your knees close to your shoulders yo're not doing anything. The limit here is the condition of your knees: If your knees are bad dont do the full range motion (and in that case i suggest dont do this exercise at all!). Also if you have lower back probleps and your hip-joint flexibility isnt great then you cant go FULL RANGE cause your lower-back will curl-up and put stress on your lower back. One more time. Lets repeat it all together: THE LARGER THE RANGE OF MOTION THE BETTER Aleck full-range Alexopoulos Subject: Re: Leg Presses and Breathing Date: 30 Oct 91 13:48:12 GMT >|> I was told it's not good for the knees to do anything which results in an >|> angle of less than 90', not even kneebends without weights (just with the o >|> body-weight), well, I try to explain by picture :-) >|> >|> 0 >|> ===| 0 >|> | ok ===| not ok >|> __| | >|> | |\| >|> _| _| >|> > >I've heard and always followed this rule (regarding "how deep one should >go during quats"). I believe this is true for squats. They don't even *feel* healthy for the knees if you try going lower than 90 degrees! Lee and most of the pros seem to agree on the "don't go lower than 90 degree" rule for squats. I've also heard Lee stress wrapping the knees for heaving squats, in order to "preserve them for when you get old like me". (not an exact quote but close). >The question is, does the same apply to leg press? I tend to let the >leg press machine come down until I'm almost completely curled up. It >feels to me like this is well past 90 degrees. It also feels like that is >where most of the work is done. I agree with this. Altho squats are tough on the knees with knees bent less than 90 degrees, leg presses seem to be more beneficial when the legs go thru a full range of motion. I don't think presses put as much stress on the knees, probably since the back is supported and the angle is different. >It seems to me like the two exercises are similar enough that one shouldn't >go past 90 degrees in either. Any ideas? they are similar but different. leg presses are much easier on the knees and better allow for a full range of motion. just make sure not to lock your knees at the top! :-) for variety try my favorite... squats done on the smith machine! :-) makes balancing alot easier too! :-) Janice Subject: Re: Deadlift form ... Date: 14 Feb 92 03:36:01 GMT This is passed on from my gym instructor Craig Pickett, who gets some news printouts from this group in return for quite entertaining fitness programs. In article <1992Jan25.061007.13141@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, djbg8364@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (David J Beatty) writes: > vinlai@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (vincent.lai) writes: > >I'm not sure if my deadlift form is correct, mainly because the bar > >keeps hitting my knees coming up and down. I would rest my heels on a > >block of wood with limited success. Anybody else run into problems > >like this? > I've always tried to do deadlifts in such a way that the bar is in > contact with my legs throughout the lift. This prevents me from > leaning out from the waist and overstressing my lower back. So I > start the lift with the bar resting against my shins, and then drive > with my legs, keeping the bar close to my lower leg, knee and finally > the thigh. Now I'm not scraping hard on my legs, I just use them as a > guide to help me keep good form throughout the lift. I think Hitting your knees with the bar during a deadlift indicates that you are lifting with your back and shoulders too early in during the movement. Not only does this hurt your knees, it may cause damage to your lower back, and will also limit your Max lift. The correct way to lift is: 1. Start with the bar against shins, back flat, and a slight stretch should be felt in the shoulders ( to stop you from pulling with your arms ). 2. Drive the hips upwards with legs ( as in a squat ) while the angle between shoulders, hips and spine stays the same as measured to the horizontal. 3. Once the bar has cleared the knees, then the hips drive forward, pushing chest up, shoulders back. > Hey, does anyone out there have a deadlift routine that's worked > particularly well for them? I've been doing mainly low reps, but I > recently have been doing a few sets of 10-12, and it seemed to cause a > lot more soreness the next day. What kinds of reps/sets do all you > deadlifters do? To increase Max strength in the deadlift, try this programme: Deadlift 3-4 times a week after warm ups. Use the same weight during the four weeks: Week 1 4 sets of 3 reps Week 2 3 sets of 4 reps Week 3 2 sets of 5 reps Week 4 1 set of 5 reps ( easy week ) Then repeat these four weeks with a heavier weight ( 5-10 kg ) increase. To increase muscle mass with the deadlift, do 3 sets of 5 reps in a pyramid ( 3rd set heaviest ), then 1 set of 10 reps. Do this 3 times a week and on the 1st and 3rd workout of the week do the set of 10 reps to FULL FAILURE, ie you could not lift the bar off the floor even if your life depended on it. Then eat a lots and grow! -Bertil on behalf of Craig Pickett Subject: Re: Knees Date: 16 Feb 92 00:52:00 GMT In article <4004@cluster.cs.su.oz.au> Geoff writes: >Haven't read this newsgroup for ages, since the last time I read it and now >I've done something really stupid - yup - injured my knees... You don't have to be stupid to injure your knees. You only have to be an athlete. (Maybe that says something about us athletes?) Actually, the knee joint is rather a messy design, very weak in relation to the loads it carries. It has a number of structural flaws, making it a common injury site in all sports which stress the lower body. You name it---running, bicycling, weight lifting, skating, skiing, dance, team sports---athletes in these sports have knee injuries *ROUTINELY*. >I have been squatting for serveral months without problems. Last year, just >before Xmas I did some sets of 5-7 reps of 100kg full-range squats (my >heaviest sets). Generally my form is impeccable but I may have wobbled a bit >coming up. I trained in this way for two weeks or so, before finding my knee >joints stiff and sore. When did the soreness start? Several hours after a training session? Or did you feel some knee pain during the set? Did your knees feel hot after the training session (before, or about the same time as the pain began)? > Muscle soreness I can handle...this was something >completely new to me. Since then I have rested my knees (after refusing to >admit anything was really wrong), and over the past three weeks they are >feeling better and better - still click slightly more than usual. Some >questions: >1) Sets - ideal rep/set combinations for a gradual build up of mass and >definition. 10 reps a good idea y/n? Because of structural weaknesses in the knees and lower back, perhaps only a minority of people can really tolerate low-rep squats *routinely*. The occasional low-rep squat set probably isn't going to kill you, but I wouldn't do it routinely unless you know for sure you can handle it. Your body is telling you that you possibly can't handle it. Fortunately, this need not retard your gains. In fact, you might find higher-rep squats to be *more* productive. They will definitely cause more pain. For example, if you can squat 100 kg 7 times in a set, you should be able to squat 60 kg 100 times in a set (after perhaps a couple months of adaptation). I guarantee, if you squat 60% of your 7-rep max for 100 reps, you will not have any doubts about the effectivenss of this technique. Neither will anyone observing you. They will see that you are suffering more, in that one set, than most people suffer in 3 or 4 workouts. However, since 100 rep squat sets are so mentally punishing, you probably will not want to do them every workout. With slightly more weight, you can fail at 20--40 reps and obtain a muscle burn of exquisite severity not possible with heavy weight/low rep squats. (This is why high-rep squats are so unpopular: they are vastly more painful than the *easier* low-rep, heavy sets.) >2) Form - I stop when my legs are parallel to the ground. I find anything more >awkward, being fairly tall - 6'3" or so I think the imperial measure is. Can >anyone tell me if this is alright, too deep or what? Are there any >recommendations on foot placement anyone would care to give me? Parallel squats should not be a problem. Your form, however, may be questionable if you squat heavy. I haven't seen too many people who can do low-rep squats with perfect form, especially the final reps. But without seeing you, I can't say. >3) Equipment - I use a belt for heavier squats. Are wraps useful or counter- >productive? The belt helps your back handle a heavier load, which might have the effect of making your knees the next weak link in the chain. If you *need* a belt to make the lift, then you may be lifting too heavy. A belt is not a bad idea for "insurance", however, but if you rely on it as a tool to make heavy lifts possible, then you might be getting your lift ahead of what your body is ready for. >4) Recovery - how long after mild joint clicking etc goes away should I start >training legs again? I am a bit miserable training these days as squats were >a favourite of mine... Depends on what you do. After years of knee injuries, I have found that aggressive cryotherapy enables me to train harder and more consistently even in the face of occasional minor knee pain such as you have experienced. In many soft- tissue overuse injuries, most of the damage occurs *after* you stop exercising (which is why the pain doesn't start until as late as the next morning). The mechanism causing the damage is "inflammation". If you don't combat the inflammation, then your recovery time will be substantially longer. You can combat the inflammation with cryotherapy (ice) and/or drugs (e.g., aspirin). Since you have had knee problems, I strongly recommend that you ice your knees immediately after every lower-body workout for at least the next several months. You might want to continue this for the rest of your athletic career (lots of people do, including me). To rehabilitate yourself, I would recommend something like the following: 1. See a sports physician if you are worried, or especially if the pain persists very long or gets worse. I don't think people need to run off to doctors every time they feel a twinge, but if an injury is interfering with your life then it's time to go get checked out. Don't expect miracles, though. Medical science really isn't so good with chronic overuse injuries. They're actually better with acute trauma. 2. Rest until most of the pain is gone (you have done this already). 3. Ice your knees after every workout. Get off your feet, elevate your legs, and strap an ice bag to each knee for 5--10 minutes. Try not to walk around until your knees have warmed back up. After you get used to this, you will probably find it to be quite soothing. If you have a stand-up job, don't schedule your leg workouts at breakfast or lunch. You must be able to get off your feet when the workout is over, and the sooner the better. 4. An aspirin or two before bed can go a long way. Unless your doctor has prescribed something stronger, consider it. 5. Don't take aspirin *before* a workout, however. You want to feel any pain during your workout, so you don't overdo it. 6. When you are ready to start training your quads again, start out with *light* leg extensions. You don't need to do a full range of motion at first. Concentrate on the final portion, and contract your thighs isometrically at lockout. Progress upward in reps before you start adding on the weight. If you can get up to 50--100 reps without knee pain at a light weight, that's good. 7. After you have gotten comfortable with leg extensions, and the weight is coming back, then you can add in leg presses. Start off light, and progress the same way: first to high reps, and then gradually increase the weight. 7a. Once you can leg press something like you expect to be able to, then you can start back on squats. Again, start light, and progress up in reps first. 8. Consider permanently changing your leg routines to emphasize higher reps. 20 reps is a reasonable benchmark for squatting. I wouldn't go lower than that except occasionally. 9. Always let pain be your guide. Your knees are amply supplied with nerve endings to inform you when you are making a mistake. If your knees hurt, stop what you are doing, or else it will only get worse. It's that simple. >And as for those who say squats are too dangerous and I-told-you-so, you do >your thing, I'll do mine. Squats *are* dangerous, of course, but that's what makes them such fun. You can beat this. -- Daniel Mocsny Subject: Re: Squats vs. leg presses (barbell-less gym Date: 18 May 92 12:43:08 GMT >From: muzzle@cs.uq.oz.au (Murray Chapman) >>i say if you don't have back or knee problems, try 'em! but make sure >>you know proper form first. otherwise, avoid 'em! > >What is the correct form? there is much debate regarding "how low should you go". some say that it's bad for the knees if you go lower than "thighs parallel to the floor". others say you can go as deep as you want. personally, my knees don't like me to squat lower than parallel... and they are even happier during squats if i wrap 'em! :-) I've heard Lee Haney say that knees should be wrapped when squatting. he didn't used to wrap his knees when he was younger, but now he says he knows (after years of heavy squatting) that knees should be wrapped for squats! i believe him. um, let's see, other than the deepness question... keep your head up, look straight ahead, be sure your back is straight and don't use your back to lift the weight. it's usually best to use a spotter (or at least a squat rack, or maybe even a power cage), especially when using heavy weights. you should *pretend* that you are sitting on the end of a flat bench, but never actually sit. you may want to place a bench beneath your butt just in case (especially without a spotter), but only sit as a last resort, not in between each squat! move slow enough that you don't bounce, and certainly don't lock your knees at the top. (i see sooo many people lock their knees during leg presses, ugh). squeeze at the top and stretch at the bottom, just like any other muscle group. oh yea, very important, make sure to BREATH!!! if you don't breath properly when squatting, your brain may not get enough oxygen, and you could pass out! i can't imagine it would be much fun to pass out and have the barbell fall on top of you (ouch!). Janice Date: Mon, 18 May 1992 10:18:19 -0400 From: Stephen Chan Subject: Re: Squats vs. leg presses (barbell-less gym > >From: muzzle@cs.uq.oz.au (Murray Chapman) > >>i say if you don't have back or knee problems, try 'em! but make sure > >>you know proper form first. otherwise, avoid 'em! > > > >What is the correct form? > there is much debate regarding "how low should you go". some say that it's A few other points: 1) Keep your heels on the ground - don't let your weight shift entirely on the balls of your feet. This puts too much stress on your knees. 2) Make sure that when you go down, your knees point in the same direction as your toes - don't allow them to bow in or out with respect to your foot position. Once again, this is to protect your knees (I learned #1 & #2 the hard way) 3) Don't bounce at the bottom of squats (knees again) 4) Breathing - make sure that you take in a deep breath before you go down for the squat. Generally, I've found that its best to hold your breath until you get past the sticking point, then let it out. But you know, if it feels like your head is going to explode, then, by all means, exhale :-) 5) When lowering the weight, don't think about lowering your shoulders - think about lowering your hips. If you concentrate on lowering your shoulders, you will have a tendency to bend too far forward, and do too much of the lifting with your back (I realized this the last time I was squatting) Good luck with squats! Stephen Date: Thursday, 23 Jul 1992 08:28:27 EDT From: Robert Cryan Jr. Subject: Re: Squat Tips In article , clong@remus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) says: > >I've been doing 20 rep sets of breathing squats (at least three >deep breaths per rep), and when I go much over 200 pounds I have >trouble with lightheadedness and the bar trying it's best to fall >off of my shoulders. Any tips? Note that I do *not* hold my breath >while I go up; I exhale. My back feels a little sore afterwards, >but this goes away after an hour or two. Any reason to worry? >-- I have done the high rep sets as well (with great results) and I find that making sure the bar is frimly placed on my upper back lets me spend more time concentrating on 'breathing' and the leg work itself. For me the proper position on the back is critical. There is a grove on the back made by the posterior deltoid head and the trapezius the locals have called 'the shelf.' I set the bar on this shelf keeping my hands on the bar 8-10 inched wider than shoulder width and elbows as paralell to the floor as possible. This keeps the bar in place. The breathing is a little harder for me. I do not breath out a great deal when I am going up. I do inhale and exhale a few times at the top to try to catch my breath and make sure I am ready for the next rep. If I do in excess of 12 reps with heavier wieght I have to do them slow enough to keep my self from getting lightheaded. I hope this helps and as always other opinions are welcome Rob. From: poo@athena.mit.edu (Claude Poux) Subject: Re: Hack Squats Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:57:25 GMT In article <1992Aug17.112915.2119@brandonu.ca> rodgers@brandonu.ca writes: > >Question about hack squats -- is it best to go down all the way for each >rep, or is best to stop when your legs are bent at a 90 degree angle? When >I do them the latter way, I feel like I'm cheating at the movement, but >I seem to feel it more in the hamstrings whereas the full movement works >the quads more. > it has been my observation that people, ideally, do and try to go down all the way when doing hacks. they give the thigh a very thorough challenge. the limiting parameter for many, however, seems to be the knees. if they bother you when you dip below the right angle, then you should stop there. if they don't bother you, then by all means, go for the big dip! why not get some ham work done (indirectly, in the case of hacks) while going after the quads?! hell. poo From: roberts@phoenix.ocf.llnl.gov (Don Roberts) Subject: Re: SQUATS - put feet where? Date: 8 Sep 92 16:43:55 GMT emansell@miasun.med.miami.edu (E-MAN) writes: > I've been working out for about 7 months now and have been doing squats > with my feet about shoulder width (maybe a little more) and toes pointed > forward. The other day I caught something on the tube where a guy was > saying that squats should be done with toes/feet pointed outward at about > 45 degrees. > Yes? No? Any comments? And while we're at it, what is the reason behind > elevating the heels while doing squats? I don't, but should I? Foot placement is supposed to shift the relative emphasis placed on your quads, hamstrings, and glutes. You can experiment to see which position you like best. The angle of your feet helps minimize the stress on your knees. If you place your feet wide, point your toes out somewhat to ensure that your knees don't suffer any lateral stresses. With a narrower, shoulder width placement, your toes should be pointed forward. The board under your heels is meant to increase the emphasis on your quads. Also, some people don't have enough flexibility in their calves to squat down without raising their heels off the ground--a bad thing, since it's not a good idea to lose your balance with a coupla hundred pounds on your back. I prefer working on calf flexibility if it's a problem, and doing other exercises in addition to squats to further target the quads, if need be. The key to squats is good form, not a lot of bells and whistles. From: brian@odin.scs.uiuc.edu (Brian Eugene Ackerson) Subject: Re: Squatting Date: 18 Sep 92 14:10:28 GMT clong@remus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes: >I've recently started back into squatting after not doing any >leg work (beyond biking) for two years due to a series of injuries. >I started back at 200 about 2 months ago, and I've been steadily >adding 11 pounds/week (this Monday I'll be doing 287x10 for my top >set). I've had no leg trouble, but I was wondering if anyone had any >advice for making sure I don't. I bike for 5 minutes before every >workout to warm up, and then I do 133x12 in the squat to warm up. >I estimate my max squat is around 400 now, based on how my last >squatting session went. Not that great, but I'm getting there >(I've put about an inch on my legs since starting the squats). I think you probably know the obvious things like not snapping up and locking your knees at the top of the movement, etc. so I won't go into that here. There are only two bits of advice that I would give: 1) Go as low as you can with the stress still remaining on your legs and not your knees and back. For squats, this means I go to parallel or slightly above. However, on hack squats I go very deep. Again, your depth should be dictated by where you feel the stress. 2) When you over do it, back off. Notice I said when not if. If you are doing squats, you will love to go heavy. When you get some kind of soreness that isn't regular muscle soreness, forget squats. Do hacks or leg presses until you're back up to speed or if you have to, skip the leg workout all together for a few weeks. I guess both of the above points are saying the same thing. Protect your back and knees at all costs. Brian Ackerson From: cecchinr@hornsby.cs.rpi.edu (Ron Cecchini) Subject: Re: Squatting Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1992 14:23:19 GMT Lines: 71 In article clong@remus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes: > >I've recently started back into squatting after not doing any >leg work (beyond biking) for two years due to a series of injuries. >I started back at 200 about 2 months ago, and I've been steadily >adding 11 pounds/week (this Monday I'll be doing 287x10 for my top >set). I've had no leg trouble, but I was wondering if anyone had any >advice for making sure I don't. I bike for 5 minutes before every >workout to warm up, and then I do 133x12 in the squat to warm up. >I estimate my max squat is around 400 now, based on how my last >squatting session went. Not that great, but I'm getting there >(I've put about an inch on my legs since starting the squats). >-- >Chris Long, 265 Old York Rd., Bridgewater, NJ 08807-2618 Hi, You probably don't need any advice from me, but I guess I'd give my 2 cents if it helps... First of all, I, too, *always* bike for about 10 minutes before doing legs. I don't always warmup for other bodyparts, but I feel its pretty much essential for legs to be thoroughly warmed up. As far as squats go (I won't go into my whole leg routine), I observe a couple of rules: 1) Don't go below parallel, except on my first 1 or 2 light, warmup sets. 2) Feet are at least shoulder width apart. I experimented with closer stances on squats, and had great difficulty. To hit my outer thighs, which is what the close stance squat is supposed to do, I do leg presses with my feet touching. Squats are different. Feet should be wider, and I like to point my toes out at 45 degrees. 3) I don't put my heels on anything. I keep my back straight (perfect form is critical for me, since I never wear a belt). 4) Breathe at the top of the rep. Hold it on the way down and part of the way back up, releasing it slowly when you get about halfway back up. 5) Stay focused and keep your muscles tight. Visualize. and, finally, I should admit that I used knee wraps for the first time last night and I guess I should admit that they did help. But I only used them on my last (and heaviest set). I really don't like wraps - perhaps an ego thing - but I suspect I would like a blown patella even less. My leg routine last night looked like: Squats (wide stance - wider than shoulder width, to hit my inner thigh) 135 X 20 225 X 15 275 X 12 315 X 8 (I "rested" before each of the last 2) Leg Presses (close stance - feet touching) 360 X 15 540 X 12 720 X 10 (the last 4 were performed with lots of heavy breathing before 'em) Extensions 80 X 15 100 X 10 I was already "fried" by the time I got to these, but they're a good "finishing" movement. Also, I like to hold each rep (of an extension) at the top for a second. Then I did leg curls and some calf work... Later, Ron From: glex@nitro.cray.com (Jeff Gleixner) Subject: Re: skinny_legs Date: 6 Jan 93 08:56:55 CST In article <1993Jan6.071432.10450@g2syd.genasys.com.au>, mikep@g2syd.genasys.com.au (Michael Preedy) writes: > these exercises consists of 4 sets of 10-15 reps. I can leg press 400lbs so > my legs are fairly strong... just whimpy. > Can anyone suggest what I can do to improve this part of my body? Assuming that you are doing 400 lbs for 10-15 reps. Or is it 400x1? Go heavier and make sure you're doing the full range of movement. Also make sure you're going to failure, I think you'll be surprised how many more reps you can do if you put your mind to it. I'd suggest doing a couple of warm-up sets (200x6, 400x6) then go to 450, do as many as you possibly can, having a spotter will help. Add weight (5 lbs) every workout and do the same reps as you did the workout before. Do 1 heavy day (3 sets of 6-8 reps) then 1 light day, about 3 days later (3 sets of 10-15 reps). Lunges are another great leg exercise. Keep a log and stick to it. Long distance running may be hindering any leg growth. If you want to get bigger/stronger legs back off a little on the long distance running. -- glex@nitro.cray.com === "Difficult tasks are never easy..." From: jwabik@uc.msc.edu (Jeff Wabik) Subject: Re: calves Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1993 21:27:47 GMT In article <1993Jan15.084838.13425@walter.cray.com>, glex@nitro.cray.com (Jeff Gleixner) writes: > > In article , lecl3846@mach1.wlu.ca (Jean-marc Leclerc u) writes: > > > > tried doing calf raises with low (6-8) reps with any good results? Popular > > opinion has it that higher reps 12-20 are better for calves.. has anyone any > > recommendations re: amount of reps, amount of sets, etc. I think the answer is "variety". I've done several different calf routines over the years, and have seen different results from different programs. I spent about 5 months this year doing a very heavy but brief routine.. I'd do 5x6 on the standing machine as heavy as I could stand it (which turned out to be about 700lbs or so). I saw great strength and size increases from that program. I've done 4x8-10 standing + 4x8-10 seated, and saw virtually no gains in size or strength. I also tried 4x20 standing, and saw good strength gains, but no size gains. Experiment. I believe the keys are: 1) Variety. Try different things and keep track of results. 2) Heavy. Train heavy. Heavy heavy heavy, WITHOUT CHEATING. 3) Fail. Always train to failure. 4) Complete. Always train through a full range of motion. 5) Squeeze Squeeze and hold at full contraction. > I've switched to doing 100 rep sets for calves. It's the only thing I've > found to really make em hurt. Using heavy weights don't do that much for me. 100 reps? At what -- 10lbs? :-) I'd argue that 100's might build some endurance, but little else. Calves are hard to train, and I feel the best way to train them is with weight, not reps. > Seated calf raises - X lbs x 100 reps followed immediately by > calf raises on a leg press machine - as many as possible followed by standing > calf raises - as many as possible. I occasionaly go very heavy as a variety. > Also, based on what I've read, don't do the toe in/out positioning. Instead > roll on the inner or outter part of the foot, to hit the inner and outer > parts of the calves. I wouldn't recommend anything that puts lateral stress on the ankle.. especially if you're training very heavy.. If you feel the need to try and work different heads of the gastro, try to push with different sides of the foot (i.e. big-toe -vs- little-toe sides) while keeping the lateral plane of the foot parallel to the floor. (i.e. Without twisting at the ankle.) -Jeff From: aleck@athena.mit.edu (Aleck H Alexopoulos) Subject: Re: Leg Press Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 02:09:19 GMT In article <4fM44I200iUzM3ODkG@andrew.cmu.edu>, "Ryan E. Rasmussen" writes: |> In a few weeks I'm going to start a new cycle in which I'll be using leg |> presses instead of squats. I was wondering what is considered |> proper/safe foot placement, and how different placements might effect |> different areas of the quads. From my own experience: If you place your feet high up on the platform you can use more weight and the exercise becomes quite similar to the squat. If you place your feet low on the platform the exercise gets harder and it begins to resemble a "sissy squat". As for distance between feet, use whatever is more comfortable. (for me it was about 15inches). |> |> My experience from squats is that they tend to build thickness (on top |> of the muscle) as opposed to width (I guess this is usually called |> sweep, and is developed by hack squats). Just wondering how leg presses |> influence shape. Again, that should depend on foot placement. You should get similar affects with the squat as long as you place your feet high on the platform. The major difference then with the squat is that you get a bigger strech in your hamstrings and also your upper hamstring does more work than in a normal squat. Aleck From: glex@calamity.cray.com (Jeff Gleixner) Subject: Re: Hamstring Exercises Date: 1 Feb 93 16:22:24 CST In article <30467@oasys.dt.navy.mil>, kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat) writes: > As rehab for my knee prob's, the doc has told me to increase my hamstring > strength to equal my quad strength. Most people have a 60-80% strength > What are the crowd's favorite exercises........ I don't think your hams will equal your quads because your quads are much larger. Leg Curls - for isolation, squats, straight legged deadlifts, lunges, leg presses with your feet high on the platform, hack squats with your feet high on the platform... just about every lower body exercise will use your hams to some extent. I'd suggest doing leg curls super setted with light (because you're not going to be as strong) squats or leg presses. Keep your butt down and try to bring your heels to your butt then lower very slowly, on the leg curls. Don't forget to stretch when finished. -- glex@nitro.cray.com === "Difficult tasks are never easy..." From: cecchinr@hornsby.cs.rpi.edu (Ron Cecchini) Subject: Re: squats vs. leg presses Date: 15 Mar 93 15:24:37 GMT In article dnix@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Dan Nix) writes: >cecchinr@hornsby.cs.rpi.edu (Ron Cecchini) writes: > >>The Squat (a.k.a. The King of All Exercises) develops more muscle >>groups than any other exercise. Squatting is a full-body experience >>(take it from me - I had my first official post-squat hurling session >>last night!). > >>The squat works the quads, hams, lower back, calves to a degree, abs and >>even your upper body to some degree. The standard advice is: >>"If you want to get big - you must squat!" [This is why Adam remains as small >>as he does!] > >Which squats are better: the ones where you keep your back straight up, butt >ends up near feet, and knees bend while going forward OR the ones where you >pretend you are sitting, back straight but bends some forward, knees bend >(of course) but don't go forward that much, and stopping when quads are >parallel to ground? > >By better, I mean working most muscles, safe, and are good over-all building >exercises. Well, I don't know how you would do the first kind you describe, unless you were on a hack squat machine. Tom Platz used to do these kinds of squats (where the knees came way forward, so that you were on your toes and not flat footed) - but I wouldn't recommend them. The second one sounds more like your typical squat: Feet slightly less than shoulder width. Toes angled out very slightly - and I prefer flat-footed. Come down to parallel or an inch or two below. Keep the back as straight as possible (of course, you will bend at the hips a bit - this may or may not fatigue your lower back) Look straight ahead, not up at the ceiling. Doing squats this way I believe is safer, and places more emphasis on the quads. So, I guess it would be the one that you are looking for. >Also ( this is a totally different matter though) I've been thristy/hungry all >day and salivating all day, does this mean anything? Only if it happens in conjunction with a full moon! Ron From: jwabik@uc.msc.edu (Jeff Wabik) Subject: Re: squats vs. leg presses Date: 15 Mar 93 17:10:56 GMT In article , cecchinr@hornsby.cs.rpi.edu (Ron Cecchini) writes: > In article dnix@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Dan Nix) writes: > >cecchinr@hornsby.cs.rpi.edu (Ron Cecchini) writes: > > > >>The Squat (a.k.a. The King of All Exercises) develops more muscle > >>groups than any other exercise. Squatting is a full-body experience > >>(take it from me - I had my first official post-squat hurling session > >>last night!). > > > >>The squat works the quads, hams, lower back, calves to a degree, abs and > >>"If you want to get big - you must squat!" [This is why Adam remains as small > >>as he does!] How ironic that he runs around screaming, "I am huge; you are small." so much, then, eh? :-) > >Which squats are better: the ones where you keep your back straight up, butt > >ends up near feet, and knees bend while going forward OR the ones where you > >pretend you are sitting, back straight but bends some forward, knees bend > >(of course) but don't go forward that much, and stopping when quads are > >parallel to ground? > >By better, I mean working most muscles, safe, and are good over-all building > >exercises. > Well, I don't know how you would do the first kind you describe, unless > you were on a hack squat machine. Tom Platz used to do these kinds of > squats (where the knees came way forward, so that you were on your toes and > not flat footed) - but I wouldn't recommend them. > > The second one sounds more like your typical squat: > > Feet slightly less than shoulder width. > Toes angled out very slightly - and I prefer flat-footed. > Come down to parallel or an inch or two below. > Keep the back as straight as possible (of course, you will bend at the hips > a bit - this may or may not fatigue your lower back) > Look straight ahead, not up at the ceiling. > > Doing squats this way I believe is safer, and places more emphasis on > the quads. So, I guess it would be the one that you are looking for. A few comments.. First, the only "safe" squat is one that uses proper form and is accompanied by a squat cage or a spotter. (Always make sure you practice safe squat.) Second, there are any number of different ways to do squats, each of which will hit a different part of the leg (and other synergist parts/groups) a different way. Examples: a) Power squat: Very wide stance, toes pointed out at a 45 or so.. the movement involves throwing the chest "out", arching back, sticking yer butt back (this means bending at the waist a LOT without losing the arch in your back), keeping your knees generally behind your toes, and stopping just below parallel.. hits the "meat" of the front thigh, and also the gracilis (inner high) .. b) High-Heel Squats: Feel below hips, toes pointed slightly inward, board (2x4) under heels.. Movement is very "vertical", knees go out beyond toes, butt ends up over heels. .. hits the sweep of the outer thigh and lower thigh. .. generally, the wider your stance, the greater weight you can handle. There are several ways to do squats.. front squats, high-heeled, close stance, feet togeher, etc, etc, etc... each of which does something different.. None of them is "better" or "worse", but rather only "different". To get a feel for how each type of squat hits different parts, after a leg day (so you can feel the pain better), experiment around with varying stances (close, wide, high, low) on an empty leg press machine... that should give you a good idea of how the different squat stances will hit you. A good legs program consists of a variety of squats, presses, and possibly other exercises.. e.g. Power squats, followed by leg presses, followed by narrow-stance hacks, followed by leg extensions. Usally, people make their squats "unsafe" by doing weight that's far too heavy, or not using a spotter. Usually, people make their squats "unproductive" by working their egos (i.e. doing too much weight) rather than their legs (by doing proper weight with great form and by taking their squats deep and slow..) .. If I had $1 for every squat I saw that ended up a foot or more short of real (i.e. productive) squat depth, I'd be a rich man. Now, repeat after me, Adam.. "I will train legs. I am small and insignificant until I do." :-) -Jeff From: f2ehg786@umiami.ir.miami.edu Subject: Calf-blasting tips (Was Re: Calves) Date: 9 Apr 93 04:26:03 EDT In article <1993Apr7.145308.22746@maths.tcd.ie>, cheers@maths.tcd.ie (David Naughton) writes: > scott@uniwa.uwa.oz.au (Scott Shalkowski) writes: > >>-- >>When doing both seated and standing calf raises does it matter much >>which I do first? > > not really as seated calf raises work the soleus and the standing works the > gastrocnemius. > > the soleus is found under the gastroc and gives the calf the wide look when > looking straight at it(understand?); while the gastroc gives the calf the > thickness seen from the side. > > tip-count reps that burn ,not ordinary reps.if you are doing three sets,count > 5-10 for the first set;10-15 for the second;and 15-20 for the third set.it's > the only way to get the stubborn things to grow. > tip-stretch on a calf block for 1 minute after completing all your calf-work. > ooooohhhhhhhh!!!!the burn!!!!!! > > like it or leave it,(!!) > David > > Peace, > Scott Shalkowski scott@arts.uwa.edu.au It's a cliche, and true in many peoples' experience: calves are the most stubborn bodypart to grow. The key is fanaticism. 1) Learn (if you don't already) to worship the beauty of thick, wide, separated calves. 2) Work calves three times a week. (Two times doesn't cut it, in my experience, and everyday, as some would advise, doesn't allow sufficient time for the muscle to fully recuperate.) 3) Work calves first when you walk into the gym. Blast them when your energy is high. (This is also a good warmup. I personally work abs first two to three times a week also, which provides a good general warmup.) 4) Vary the order of your calf exercises. I personally like to warm my calves up with one set of 20-30 reps, deep stretch, on the standing calf machine. I may stay on the machine, or go to seated calves and then back to the standing machine. If your gym has one of those machines that lets you bend over and support the weight on your lower back, use it. It's much easier on your spine. Don't forget calf raises on the leg press machine. If you use heavy weight on this, keep your knees slightly bent. Alternate toe position (pointed in and pointed out). 5) Concentrate when you work calves. If you get your head into the feeling of any calf exercise, you'll be able to feel the various parts of the calf working. Assess your calf development in the mirror and decide how you want them to look. Then, concentrate to feel that look. 6) My secret: get crazy when you do calves. Try different ways to kill 'em. One of my absolute fav's is to do GIANT sets. For those who are wondering, giant sets are essentially extended supersets. That is, pick three or four exercises for calves and go from one to the next with *no* rest in between. For example, once you've warmed up your calves, do (1) seated raises followed by (2) standing raises followed by (3) extensions on the leg press followed by (4) standing raises with just your bodyweight. Do all sets to complete exhaustion and beyond. You'll have to experiment with the weights you use as sets 2 and 3 will probably require less weight than you're used to using. On set 4, go fast and go for the ultimate burn. Then sit down and fight back the tears. ;-) If you train when the gym is busy, you may have to limit your killer sets to 2 or 3 of the above exercises. (You can always do the standing raises without weight.) Using this kind of routine, I've built my calves up to a modest 17" (drug-free and cold measurement), but I've really been able to achieve a nice shape with a deep split going right down the middle and fairly side sweep on the inside and outside. Hope this gives a few of you some ideas, Bill* P.S. I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all here, but to share some of the experience I've accumulated over 15 years or so of weight training/bodybuilding. I imagine that a lot of the beginning/intermediate bodybuilders reading this group might appreciate some tips/tricks that have actually helped others. If such a post offends someone, please let me know and I'll hold back. Otherwise, over the next few weeks I'll make some periodic comments on aspects of bodybuilding that I feel are important/often overlooked/fun. For instance, the importance of concentration to reach hard-to-develop areas that give a physique a truly finished look (inner back, high and low, comes immediately to mind). P.S.S. The giant sets routine is NOT FOR BEGINNERS! This is no joke. You can do serious and permanent damage to your calves if they are not prepared for such intense stimulation. Even if you're an experienced bodybuilder, don't try this if you're just getting back after a layoff! I'm sure someone better versed than I in exercise physiology can explain the potential/reason for serious damage. *I am providing this information in the interest of sharing my experiences with others. I accept no responsibility for any harm you may cause yourself through the unwise or incorrect application of this information. From: glex@calamity.cray.com (Jeff Gleixner) Subject: Re: Q: Lunges Date: 1 Jun 93 14:35:14 CDT In article <1993Jun1.133601.19908@bnr.ca>, robertk@bnr.ca (Robert Kaczynski P765) writes: > What is the proper way to do Lunges? Back straight up and down. Take a comfortable step forward. By bending the knees go straight down NOT FORWARD until your back knee just touches the ground. Stand up and return to beginning. Working one leg to failure seems to work better. You can use a barbell on the traps, similar to squats, or dumbbells held in your hands. another variation.. I forgot what they're called.. Instead of returning to the starting position keep your feet in this position and just go up/down for x-reps, then step with the other leg. Really watch your front knee to make sure it isn't going forward as you go down. A mirror or training partner is a good idea. > Should I use a step or not? A step will provide a greater range of motion and put more stress on the Glutes and less on the muscle just above the knee cap. I like to use the platform that T-bar rows are performed on. It angles towards you and is about 4-6 inches off the ground. > What are they suppose to work? Try them and see. > Are there alternative exercises? squats, extensions, leg press, hack squat. -- glex@nitro.cray.com === "Difficult tasks are never easy..." From: Stephen_Y._Chan@transarc.com Subject: Re: Advice on squats Date: 2 Jun 93 10:05:34 GMT markc@onondaga.East.Sun.COM (Mark Conti - Sun Syracuse, NY FE) writes: > I start to do squats this week. I need some advice on proper ways > to do them. I am wrapping my knees and am wearing a belt, but I > don't really have any experience in this at all. Squats are considered to be one of the the best exercises for building strength and mass, but they are also the one of the best ways to wreck your knees if you do them wrong. > All info on form, starting weight/reps, how to wrap knees, sets, etc. > would be of great help. Some basic hints are: Stay upright, move your HIPS up and down, not your shoulders Looking forward and maybe a little upward will help to keep your back straight. Keep your heels on the ground. Allowing your heels to raise puts more stress on your knees, instead of on the large muscles of your legs. Keep your knees pointing in the same direction as your big toe - this is a requisite for correct leg/foot alignment in ANY physical activity. Use the belt by pushing your abdomen into the belt - this will force your lower back against the belt, giving your lower back the support it needs. You want to "inflate" your abdomen on the push upwards. Stephen Chan chan@transarc.com |Transarc Corporation |Pittsburgh, PA 15219 From: glex@calamity.cray.com (Jeff Gleixner) Subject: Re: Advice on squats Date: 3 Jun 93 18:50:15 GMT In article <1ul8rq$853@Tut.MsState.Edu>, sakalauk@pluto.ino.ucar.edu (Peter Sakalaukus) writes: > [hints on squats deleted] > > > Use the belt by pushing your abdomen into the belt - this will > > force your lower back against the belt, giving your lower back the > > support it needs. You want to "inflate" your abdomen on the push > > upwards. > I beg to differ, but, ALWAYS tighten the stomach muscles. Pushing your abs into your belt is exactly what you want to do. Most people wear their belt too loose to do any good. When the belt is really, really tight pushing your abs out will give more support, the abs only move a small distance, but this is the technique every powerlifter uses. -- glex@nitro.cray.com === "Difficult tasks are never easy..." From: bapiche@hwking.cca.cr.rockwell.com Subject: Re: Advice on Squats Date: 3 Jun 93 07:57:31 GMT Squats: one of the best, one of the most avoided, and one of the most misunderstood exercises. They can hurt your knees if done improperly, but so can jumping off of a house if you don't use a ladder. Even improperly stretching the quadriceps muscle can hurt your knees, etc. etc. As far as breathing. Yes breathe. Stomach tight?? BY DEFINITION, if you take a weight off the racks you are using your stomach muscles. If you weren't you would collapse! Wraps. Forget them unless you happen to be cycling for a powerlifting contest. If anything, they increase the chance of injuring your knees because your tendons and ligaments are not getting as strong as they should be because of the wraps. Don't believe me. Try using wraps for six weeks and then not use them. The reason powerlifter's even use wraps is not for protection, but because they enable them to squat more in a competition. Reps. Yes, do reps. Unless you are cycling towards testing your one rep max, you should do 5 reps and above. What is above? Above is not at least 10, it is not 15, it is not 5. Bottom line, for continued progress you need to vary your rep schemes. 50 is not a ridiculous number for above either. The thought of doing a HARD set of 20 usually sends people to the exits. "Oh, I'll do leg extensions instead" (which are useless, unless you are dieting for a bodybuilding contest and already have adequate leg size, strength, which for most of us, neither applies). How Deep? You DON"T cut squats high if you want overall development and strengh. You are wasting your time squatting high. It does not mostly hit the quads, it hits the hips! You will get very little from high squats except getting nose bleeds (from being so high). Nobody with super quad and leg strength ever got that way by doing partial squats! Also, partials put your low back at a much greater risk. I challenge anybody who refutes this to tell me they squat 600 pounds deep (which means the hip joint is below the top of the thighs) with no chemical aids and did it by doing partial squats and leg extensions. Enough said. Whew. I couldn't contain myself any longer after reading several responses on squats. I have been doing squats for 14 years and have been a competitive powerlifter for 12 years and the above conclusions were arrived at by DOING what I said is NOT the right thing over the last 14 years. Bill From: hamid@vitec.com (Hamid Salemizadeh) Subject: Re: Calf Muscles - Requesting suggestions. Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1993 15:15:00 GMT In article , julian@vanuliet.unx.sas.com (Phil Julian) writes: |> |> In article , kumaran@cup.hp.com (Kumaran S.) writes: |> |> Hi everyone! |> |> |> |> I am looking for suggestions for any specific exercises |> |> for developing the calf muscles (legs). |> |> |> |> Thanks, |> |> Kumaran |> |> I asked the experts at our gym here, after I had read an article about |> the importance of equalizing muscle pairs. I was a little worried |> about the achiles tendon, and its relationship to the calf muscles. |> |> Anyway, what I got to do was this. We have a machine where you add |> weight, strap on a belt, and lift while standing on a step. It is |> important that you can place the heel below the toe on the edge of the |> step, since this exercises muscles which pair with the achilles |> tendon. And you can also do this without weight for more reps. So, I |> do the lifts by raising up on my toes, and then lowering the heel |> below the toes, repeatedly with about 50 lbs. -- then do the same with |> the toe pointed inwards -- then do the same with the toe pointed |> outwards. |> -- |> Phil Julian | "I call it warpabilly, muddle of the rude, queasy You can use the Leg Press machine for doing calf exercises. Position the seat back further than you would for normal leg presses. Place only the top of your feet on the foot pad so that your heels are not against the foot pad. Now press out all the way so that your legs are completely straight with your knees locked. Hold this position through out the exercise. Using only the top of portion of your feet (just below your toes) press the weight away from you as far as you can, then bring your toes back towards your body as far as you can, pause and repeat. This does not put any pressure on your lower back like normal calf raises do, plus you can do a lot more weight than regular calf raises (Arnold states both of these facts in his book - The Bible..). I do eight consecutive sets of these, increasing the weight each time till I hit my max on the sixth set, then I lower the weight each of the last two sets, going to failure on every set, except the first set (warm up set). This has worked wonders for my calfs, your mileage may vary. From: DEHP@calvin.edu (Phil de Haan) Subject: Re: Attention Powerlifters Date: 29 Jun 93 20:18:01 GMT In article <17048@news.duke.edu> infante@acpub.duke.edu (Andrew Infante) writes: >Hey, could someone explain exactly what deadlifts look like? >From what understand, do have a bar with heavy weights >on it, grab with hands tightly, with bar in front of >your body...keep back slightly bent, mostly straight >(right), bend at waist and knees, and try to stand up? There's different variations on deadlifts, but what many people do is a stiff-legged deadlift in which the bar is gripped at about shoulder-width with the palms facing you (some alternate grips, going with a palms-facing grip for the left and a palms-away grip for the right or vice versa). Often the lift is done standing on a box or a bench, so that a maximum stretch is achieved (ie: you aren't limited in how far down you can go by the weights touching the ground). The lift is performed by pulling up and coming to a nearly vertical position with the knees locked and then returning the weight to the bottom position with the knees remaining locked. >Can't that hurt your back? The National Strength and Conditioning Association does not recommend stiff- legged deadlifts because of the rotational strain that the exercise places on the discs and the spinal cord. They recommend squats (which work all of the same muscles) and hyperextensions (with a plate if you need more weight). >How long a motion is it (fast, slow?)? >Are those what the huge powerlifters are doing in the >Olympic (competetive) shows? >What is the one that brings the bar above the head after >all that (Clean and Jerk?) >thanks/ Phil de Haan (DoD #0578) Why yes. That is my 1974 Honda CL360. From: aleck@athena.mit.edu (Aleck H Alexopoulos) Subject: Squats: How low should you go. Date: 17 Aug 1993 18:25:37 GMT There are two extremes of squat technique 1) You keep your lower legs (knee to ankle) mostly upright and you lean forward quite a bit. This is usualy done with an open leg stance and is preferred by powerlifters because this way you can end up lifting the most weight. However for the bodybuilder i wouldnt recommend squatting this way because there is too much stress in your lower back and you cant go below parallel easy (meaning your strength drops off real fast if you do). 2) You keep your lower legs parallel to your upper body. This technique allows you to go deeper and puts less stress on your lower back. You may not be able to squat as much this way because your lower back and glutes are no longer assisting as much at the parallel position. However you can go deeper because your strength doesnt drop as fast below parallel and this allows you to give your hamstrings a decent workout. Drawbacks: you wont be able to lift as much as the powerlifting technique allows and there is more stress in your knee joints even if you just go to parallel. For bodybuilders i think the best is technique #2 especially if they have bad lower backs. For guys with bad knees but strong lower backs i would recommend something in between #1 and #2 (and dont lock-out at the top). Also, if you're going to go below parallel, you have to build up your hamstrings. Full-range leg presses help for that. If you look at some old pics of Tom Platz doing squats you'll see what i consider the "perfect" squat technique #2. The guy would do reps at 600+ going well below parallel. There is also another technique for squatting but ill call it number zero rather than #3 cause it aint really squatting: 0) You load up the bar with tons of weight. You get under the bar. You lift it off the rack (making a lot of loud grunting noises so that everyone will notice what a serious lifting dude you are). You go down about 3 inches and then back up. Then you tell the guys that you squatted 500 for a few reps. This is really what i call "knee-bends". Maybe it will build the knee ligaments (more likely it will injure them) maybe it will have some positive psychological effect (more likely people will think you're a jerk) but what this will NEVER do is build up your quads. Aleck From: berends@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Patrick T Berends) Subject: Re: Deadlifts (was Re: What Are Good Mornings?) Date: 20 Aug 1993 10:57:53 -0500 glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson) writes: >In article <2507v2$aoc@cville-srv.wam.umd.edu>, sfjr@wam.umd.edu (Steve Russell) writes: >|> Like I said, I agree. I had back problems that just vanished >|> when I did deadlifts carefully, but I think Good Mornings are >|> just a dangerous exercise. Its just to easy to overload and >|> it has excellent leverage for damaging a spine. >I've been doing hyperextensions for years, sometimes >with a 25-lb weight. I just started doing deadlifts >and I'm not sure of exactly how to do them - roll up >the back or straighten it and then lift from the lower >back? Same question for the way down. I also just started deadlifts and I'll give you the advice a friend of mine, who is a powerlifter, gave me. After you have your stance and grip, there are basically two ideas to follow. One, rather than lifting the weight up think of it as shoving your feet through the floor. Two, don't bend at the waist, thrust out with the hips. These are "feel" ideas obviously, as you can not put your feet through the floor (hopefully your gym is stronger than that :-)) and some bending at the waist does occur. >What should I be careful to *avoid*? Not using your back to lower the weight, use your legs as much as possible. More injuries occur when lowering then weight than lifting it. So says my friend. Patrick From: krw@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (keith.r.smith) Subject: Re: Deadlifts Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 17:32:05 GMT In article <2bc01a$dq4@amhux3.amherst.edu> mbfeld@unix.amherst.edu (A waste of bandwidth originating) writes: >I want to do deadlifts, but the bar keeps bumping into my knees... >Why does it do that? Or rather, how could it possibly not do that? > >Marlon > Hi Marlon! It could be the way that you are built, or it could be your form. Do you keep your butt down and your back flat? If this doesn't work, then you might try doing the movement in a power rack, or on some other device that will support the bar high enough from the floor so that you don't bump your knees, or use big enough plate to achieve the same effect. Keith R <<<< Mad Cross-Trainer and Cycling Zealot >>>> From: krw@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (keith.r.smith) Subject: Re: squatting Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 22:17:16 GMT In article <2cbf94$m05@dekalb.DC.PeachNet.EDU> joseph@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu (Joseph Dennis,SB203 LAB,244-5087,8) writes: > >I have aquestion about doing squats. I'm 6'5 and am having >problem keeping my feet square on the ground. This guy told >that it was because of my height. And that I would probably >never be able to do a full squat in good form. > >any suggestion would be appreciated > >joseph > > Hi Joseph! Your difficulty in keeping your heels "planted" has nothing to do with your height, and everything to do with flexibility and balance. The good news is that these aspects are trainable. Try doing squats with just a mop-handle or a bare-bar for a while. Go only as low as keeping heels planted will allow. As your low-back flexibility improves over time, then you will be able to go deeper w/o coming off of your heels. For the purpose of this flexibility training, do these "calisthenic squats" with the bar/stick resting on your delts, and with your elbows at shoulder-level (front squat style). Over time, you should be able to go well-below parallel in this fashion. It is normal for your back to curl a little as you go below parallel. This is not a break in form. Whatever you do, _do not_ look at your feet! Plant them in a shoulder-width stance and do not look at them again until your set is complete. Look ahead, instead. Keith R From: crg@slayer.raleigh.ibm.com () Subject: Re: squatting Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 18:58:10 GMT In article <1993Nov17.190826.712@leland.Stanford.EDU>, brown@waldron.Stanford.EDU (Joseph Brown) writes: |> In article <2cdlmj$fim@Tut.MsState.Edu> sakalauk@golem.coam.usm.edu (Peter Sakalaukus) writes: |> >>Joseph, I think others have suggested you get a 1inch plank and place it |> >>under your heels when you do squats. This would help you keep your |> >>torso close to vertical. I also wonder if your feet are parallel to |> >>each other when you squat...if you point your toes out some and spread |> >>your legs a little greater than shoulder width apart, that might help |> >>too. |> >>Someone earlier suggested you bend forward when squatting. That puts |> >>more stress on your back and is absolutely NOT A GOOD IDEA. Good luck. |> > |> >IF, you want to mainly hit the quads then this might be fine, but, for a total |> >leg workout flatfooted is the way to go. Also, by having a board, weight whatever |> >under your heels would put you off balance and force you to lean forward. |> |> Well, yes, it forces your whole body a bit more forward, but it helps |> you keep your torso vertical and that should facilitate working the hips |> and legs. If you lean your torso ONLY forward, when you come up out of |> the squat, your quads are working, but your lower back is getting a lot |> of stress and is bringing you back to vertical. That's why leaning |> forward isn't good technique. |> |> The point about the plank is that it helps you keep your hips under your |> shoulders while you squat. Well, I've read this thread for a while and although there have been some good ideas here and there, I don't think anybody has gotten it quite right (IMHO). One thing overlooked here is that everyone's body mechanics are a little different, but everyone has a natural 'groove' for squatting. You want to learn this groove so you can squat safely and use heavy weights for a whole-body stimulation. If this isn't what you want to do, then don't do squats. But having heavy squats in your program is by far the best way to get your whole body to grow and get stronger. That said, how do you find your groove? Do it freehand until it feels right. Somewhere between legs spread all the way out and knees together, and feet spread out or feet together is your natural groove. First try feet shoulder width apart and kness pointing a bit outward. Always let your knee position dictate your foot position so that you feel *absolutely* no stress on your knees during the motion. Keep your chest up and your lower back slightly arched all the way through, and hold your hands up as though you were holding the bar across your back (but don't use a bar until you've got the grrove thing done.) When you've got it right, you'll be able to go all the way down to a very deep squat and back up with no problems with balance or joint stress. You may lack flexibility, but that'll come. Find your groove and practice these freehand squats a good bit and then go to an empty bar and practice. The bar should be down on your back a little, but again you'll have to trial and error to get the right spot for you. By now you've already learned your groove, so the bar position is dictated by maintaining your balance and form as you squat in your groove. If you learn to do your squats this way, you'll be able to do them powerfully and safely. This'll pretty much put you into a powerlifting type of stance, but remember that squats are for general power and stimulation, not working a particular muscle group. Try this and let me know what you think. ============================================================================= Chuck Grissom AIX contractor RTP North Carolina USA Internet ID: crg@vnet.ibm.com From: Doug Cutrell Subject: Re: Calves Date: 8 Dec 1993 04:59:05 GMT > Subject: Re: Calves In article Allan Armstrong, allana@sad.hp.com writes: > As I see it there are: > > Gastrocnemius, 2 heads, my inside head is FAR larger than my outside head > I've built my calves essentially through cycling. > Soleus (I think I know where this is.) > one muscle on the front of the shin that raises the toes > one muscle on the outside between the shin muscle and the soleus which bends > the ankle outward > one very small muscle on the inside just next to the inside head of the > gastrocnemius which bends the ankle inward... It's hard to isolate this one. > It seems to work in conjunction with the inside head of the gastrocnemius > if you're not patient. > > So, out of curiosity, does anyone know of movements to build these last three? I have developed my own technique for doing this, and although I have tried various other methods, none have proven better for me. What I do is to sit on a bench or chair with some kind of platform (at least six inches high) on the ground underneath, so that I can prop my heel on the platform with the end of my foot hanging off. Then I take a plate (25 or 30 lbs works for me) and balance it on the end of my foot, holding it in place with my hands. I can then directly work those muscles (the anterior tibialis and any others responsible for foot flexion) against the weight. By turning my foot from one side to the other, and by shifting the balance of the weight, I feel that I can hit the muscles on one side or the other of the front of my leg. It's a fairly uncomfortable exercise, and you have to apply a lot of force with your hands to keep the plate from sliding off the foot, but it *works*. I've noticed that very few body builders have adequately developed frontal lower leg muscles, and that these muscles give a very "athletic" and natural look to the lower leg. I do this exercise every time I work out my calves, and I think those muscles on the front of my lower legs are noticeably larger than on most people in my gymn as a result. Doug Cutrell cutrell@netcom.com From: sfjr@wam.umd.edu (Steve Russell) Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Using Leg Extensions Correctly To Heal Knees Date: 30 Dec 1993 18:23:47 GMT This is for everyone using leg extension machines to rehabilitate/strengthen their knees in some way. According to my copy of SECRETS OF ADVANCED BODY BUILDERS pages 105 -106 ( published by Health For Life 1-800-874-5339 ) : 1. Everyone has two kinds of quadricep muscles : A. the outer quadriceps B. the inner quadriceps 2. The outer and inner quadriceps are opposing muscles, both need to be balanced against the other in strength to avoid injury and maximize the function of the knee. 3. Luckily, both sets of quads can be exercised on a leg extension machine by varying your technique. 4. Outer quads should always be exercised first because : A. to use the outer quads you need both 1. the outer quads 2. & the inner quads B. to use the inner quads you need only 1. the inner quads C.Therefore the inner quads are a limiting factor 1. if they are exhausted first A. you cant work the outer quads as effectively D.doing the outer quads first allows you to 1. fully work the outerquads while pre-exhausting the inners 2. fully work both A. and with lets sets. 5. To work the outer quads on a leg extension machine: A. sit on the leg extension machine LEANING BACK B. point your toes, KEEP THEM POINTED ALL OF THE TIME FOR OUTER QUADS C. as you lift apply a SLIGHT outward pressure as if you were trying to seperate your legs D. at the end of the lift hold the weight for a second before lowering it. 6. To work the inner quads on a leg extension machine: A. sit on the leg extension machine LEANING FOWARD B. pull your toes in, point them towards you, THROUGH OUT THE EXERCISE C. roll your ankles in SLIGHTLY ( supinate at the ankles ) D. as you lift, LEAN FOWARD INTO THE MOTION, TRYING TO FEEL THE INNER QUADS WORK. Good Luck Steve R. sfjr@wam.umd.edu From: glex@nitro.cray.com (Jeff Gleixner) Subject: Re: The Glutes Date: 5 Jan 94 09:36:33 CST In article <35726@mindlink.bc.ca>, James_Bjerring@mindlink.bc.ca (James Bjerring) writes: > > Meryem Primmer writes: > > Buzz Moschetti (buzz@bear.com) wrote: > > : Simple Q: What are the best exercises to firm & shape the glutes? > > > > Simple A: Squats and lunges > Would leg extensions work instead of squats? nope. Leg extensions isolate the quads. > What are lunges? With a bar on you traps, dumbbells in your hands, or no weight at all take about a 2-3' step forward. Go straight down until your back knee touches the ground, your front leg should have ~90-degree bend and the front knee should not travel forward when you're going down. Stand up and go back to the starting position. That was 1 rep for that leg, do at least 10 per leg. You can alternate legs or really hit one leg at a time. Stepping up on a block will hit the glutes a little more. -- glex@nitro.cray.com === "Difficult tasks are never easy..." From: glex@nitro.cray.com (Jeff Gleixner) Subject: Re: The Glutes Date: 5 Jan 94 11:26:06 CST > In article <2gcs0l$4h9@uudell.us.dell.com> Allen Warren, > awarren@buckeye.us.dell.com writes: > > |> Thanks for the response. I've seen people do lunges by > starting with > > |> one foot a metre or so in front of the other, then dropping the back > knee, > > |> together except at the very beginning and end of the set. Is this > bad form, > > |> or just another way of doing them? These are not "lunges" they are called something else.. total mind blank as to the actual name. They do 'about' the same thing but the standing up and stepping forward movement bring more muscles into play. The more muscles used the better the results. Do real lunges if possible. >Vicki Farmer >I like doing them this way because I'm less inclined to lose my balance Try doing them facing a mirror, so you can focus on something and it will help you from tilting. DON'T lean forward. Keep the upper torso straight. It may be that your step is going in a straight line from your back foot, which would make you less stable. Try to step forward just like you're walking, not like you're trying to "walk the line". Lunges are a wonderful exercise. A set of squats followed by a set of lunges will make you use the elevator, instead of the stairs, the next day. :-) -- glex@nitro.cray.com === "Difficult tasks are never easy..." From: Lyle McDonald Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Re: Proper squat form Date: Tue, 11 Jan 94 21:52:22 EST Jodi, In a recently released stance on squating but the Nationals Strength and Conditioning Association, they recommend squats be done only to slightly past where your thighs are parallel to the floor. In a number of studies, parallel squats have been found to actually strengthen the surrounding structures of the knees and to be actually beneficial. However, going too far past parallel can put an immense amount of pressure on your knees, especially your anterior cruciate ligament. Lyle From: lylemcd@delphi.com (Lyle McDonald) Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Squat.info.part1 Date: 28 Jan 94 06:13:59 GMT Well, before I get started with the sports nutrition series, I want to cover a few more miscellaneous points (mainly because I've been too lazy to write the sports nutrition stuff yet). So, this time I would like to address some of the beliefs about squatting and knee safety. I wrote an entire term paper on squatting for my biomechanics class and, to my dismay, found out more about the squat exercise than I ever wanted to. For example, you've probably heard that using a weight belt supports the spine by increasing intra-abdominal pressure (IAP). Well, this is true. However, did you ever wonder how they measured IAP. Well, there are two ways. The first is through a nasal pressure transducer. Ok, no problem. Well, a couple of studies used a rectal pressure transducer. I asked my professor how they got subjects for this type of study. He replied immediately "Graduate students". Ah, what I have to look forward to when I go back to school. Anyway. The squat is probably one of the most important exercise for both the athlete and the person seeking greater muscular mass. It is the main lower body exercise and involves most of the major muscles in the body including: quadriceps, hamstrings, gluteals, low back, and upper back. Also, inclusion of this type of exercise (large muscle, heavy weight) exercises has been shown to increase growth hormone (GH) release which will benefit all muscles in the body. From an athletic standpoint, the squat provides the strength and power for all leg movements and is useful for any athlete who needs use of his/her legs (i.e. all of them). It is more movement specific than leg extensions in that it is a movement which is performed during daily tasks (i.e. lifting something from the knees). Also, some physical therapists feel it is more beneficial than leg extensions for knee (especially anterior cruciate ligament damage) rehabilitation because it is a closed kinetic chain exercise whereas extensions are a open chain exercise (I'll explain this a little later). However, for the last 30 or so years, the squat has suffered from the misconception that it is bad for your knees and extremely dangerous. To the contrary, the squat can be extremely beneficial and can strengthen the supporting structures of the knees if done properly. As a final note this time, let me state that I am primarily addressing the back squat. There are a whole bunch of variations on the squat (i.e. sissy squat, front squat, hack squat, etc) but here I will only be using the back squat as an example. Primarily, I will be using a recent position statement by the National Strength and Conditioning Association (NSCA) as my reference. I used it as a reference for my term paper and it was a fairly inclusive review of the available research. I hope to address some of the misconceptions regarding the squat as well as recapping the NSCA recommendations for proper form during the back squat. But, that will have to wait until part 2. For a catalog of previous posts, send requests to lylemcd@delphi.com along with questions/comments. Lyle From: Lyle McDonald Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Squat.info.part2 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 01:15:25 -0500 Ok, welcome to part two of a who-knows-how-many part series on the squat. This time I would like to give verbatim the NSCA position stand regarding the squat exercise and close with their recommendations for proper form. 1. Squats, when performed correctly and with appropriate supervison, are not only safe, but may be a significant deterrent to knee injuries. 2. The squat exercise can be an important component of a training program to improve the athlete's ability to forcefully extend the knees and hips, and con considerably enhance performance in many sports. 3. Excessive training, overuse injuries, and fatigue-relted problems do occur with squats. The likelihood of such injuries and problems is substantially diminished by adherence to established principles of exercise program design. 4. The squat exercise is not detrimental to knee joint stability when performed correctly. 5. Weight training, including the squat exercise, strengthens connective tissue, including muscles, bones, ligaments, and tendons. 6. Proper form depends on the style of the squat and the muscles to be conditioned (see Appendices A and B). Bouncing in the bottom position of a squat to help initiate ascent increases mechanical loads on the knee joint and is therefore contraindicated. 7. While squatting results in high forces on the back, injury potential is low with appropriate techniques and supervision. 8. Conflicting reports exist as to the type, frequency, and severity of weight- training injuries. Some reports of high injury rate may be based on biased samples. Others have attributed injuries to weight training, including the squat, which may have been caused by other factors. 9. Injuries attributed to the squat may result not from the exercise itself, but from improper technique, pre-existing structural abnormalities, other physical activities, fatigue or excessive training. As you can see, the NSCA, possibly the foremost authority on strength and conditioning, seems to feel that fears surrounding the squat as a dangerous exercise are unfounded. Assuming that proper form is used and that there are no pre-existing injuries or contra-indications to squatting, it can be extrememly beneficial and may even help prevent knee injuries by strengthening the muscles and surrounding structures of the knee. Since this is getting a little long, I will save recommendatins for proper form for next time. As always, send requests for a catalog of old posts to lylemcd@delphi.com along with questions/mail/comments/whatever. Lyle From: Lyle McDonald Newsgroups: misc.fitness Subject: Squat.info.part3 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 01:17:44 -0500 This time, I would like to reproduce the NSCA recommendations for proper form during the squat. This will be the final part of this series. They describe proper form in the squat this way. - Use approximately a shoulder-width foot stance. - Descend in a controlled manner. Ascent can be made at a variety of speeds. At faster speeds, there should be no compromise in technique. - Proper breath control is important to support the torso. The breath should be held from the start of the descent until the athlete passes the sticking point of the ascent. *Actually, this is probably not a very good idea. Holding one's breath (The Valsalve Maneuver) can be potentially very dangerous as it can cause blood pressure to skyrocket which may cause fainting when normal breathing is resumed. It is probably better to just inhale on the descent and, perhaps, hold the breath very momentarily on the ascent as you fight past the sticking point, and then exhale. This is my opinion, Lyle* - Avoid bouncing or twisting from the bottom position. - Maintain a normal lordotic posture with the torso as close to vertical as possible during the entire lift. - Generally, in typical back or front squats, descend only until the tops of the thighs are parallel to the floor or slightly below. Exceptions can be made for sports that require lower positions. - Feet should be kept flat on the floor. - Forward lean of the knee increases shear forces on the knee. Keeping the shin perpendicular may increase shear forces on the back as a result of forward trunk inclination. Although there are exceptions, the shin generally should remain as vertical as possible to reduce shear forces at the knee. Maximal forward movement of the knees should place them no more than slightly in front of the toes. Depending on th type of squat being used, volume and intensity should not be increased at a rate that exceeds the body's ability to adapt to the imposed demands. - Every effort should be made to maintain a consistent stable pattern of motion for each reptition, in order to load the muscles in a consistent manner and help prevent injury. As you can see, the NSCA recommends only going to or slightly past parallel while squatting. Some of the early fears surrounding the squats were due to the injury potential of full squats. Flexing the knee much past 90 degrees can put enormous stress on the ligaments of the knee and full squats should generally be avoided, with certain possible exceptions. Although they don't mention the use of a belt in their recommendations, it is probably a good idea to use one, especially for heavy sets to help support the spine. Additionally, it provides the lifter something to push against while exhaling and may actually increase strength in the lift. Finally, I would like to describe briefly the increasing use of the squat (and leg press) in a rehabilitation setting for knee injuries. Some therapists prefer squat-type movements to the typical leg-extension because it is a closed kinetic chain exercise. Put very simply (because I honestly don't know that much about it), exercises where both feet are in contact with the floor are considered to be closed chain while exercises like leg extensions are open chain. So, what does this have to do with anything. Well, first and foremost, most open chain exercises do not correlate with real-world movements. When was the last time you had to sit down and extend your knee (excepting your last leg workout). The squat, on the other hand, is performed daily anytime you bend your knees to lower your body followed by an extension (i.e. picking something up, assuming you are not using your back). Thus there is greater specificity when using closed chain movements in terms of applicability to the real world. However, there are other differencs. During a leg extension, only the quadriceps are contracting as opposed to squats where both quads and hamstring are active. This has one very major consequence. During a leg extension, there is not only rotation of the shin about the knee during extension but also some linear translation of the shin. This puts amazing stress on the cruciate ligaments of the knee, especially at the beginning of the movement. However, during a squat, both the quads and hams are firing. Since they are pulling from opposite sides of the shin, there tends to be a lot less demand put on the knee as there is not as much translation. (2) References: 1. The Squat Exercise in Athletic Conditioning: A Position Statement and Review of the Literature. NSCA Position Paper. Chandler, T. Jeff and M.H. Stone. For reprints, contact the National Strength and Conditioning Association at P.O. Box 81410 Lincoln, NE 68501. Phone: (402) 472-3000 Fax: (402) 476-6976. 2. Kinetic Chain Exercise in Knee Rehabilitation. Sports Medicine 11(6): 402-413, 1991. Randal A. Palmittier et. al. That about wraps this up. For a catalog of previous posts, send mail to lylemcd@delphi.com along with questions/comments. Lyle From: krw@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (keith.r.smith) Subject: Re: squat technique Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 20:07:38 GMT In article <2iotcm$6e1@grit.cs.utexas.edu> jacobb@cs.utexas.edu (Jorge Arturo Cobb) writes: >In article , >keith.r.smith wrote: > >>When you can comfortably complete a set with the bar on the mid-part >>of your shoulder blades (below the point where your traps fan out across >>your shoulders, then and only then, do you consider adding weight. > >Hi everyone: > >I am somewhat confused as to exactly where should the bar be placed >on the shoulders when squatting. One way, which I believe is the >one above, is to put the bar rather low on the shoulders. >Silly question: how come it does not roll down your back? Is arm strength >alone what keeps it in place? I once saw I guy in the gym squatting heavy >this way, and I think he kept the bar in place by >leaning forward somewhat and having lots of arm strength. Do the >arms have to be very strong to do heavy squats? > >The other way I've seen is to rest the bar on the top edge of >the shoulder blades, which prevents it from rolling down, but it >presses against the base of the neck and it hurts my shoulders. > >Any suggestions? > >Jorge C. > Hi Jorge! Being able to squat comfortably with a bare-bar low on the shoulders is a fairly good measure of flexibility in the shoulder girdle, and of the fact that you have mastered the form (head erect, chest out, butt down) of the movement. You really want to have these elements in order before you start squatting with any meaningful weight, whether you intend to squat "powerlifter-style" (low on shoulders) or "bodybuilder-style" (higher on traps). In any event, you want to be able to carry the bar low enough that it does not bear down on that unmuscled area at the neck. Having good traps tends to help here too. Keith R From: an100984@anon.penet.fi Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 16:57:53 UTC Subject: Re: Leg Press vs Squats [ For the record: I do both - but usually not in the same workout. ] Hey Tord - you want a great quad-busting routine centered on the squat? Try this: 1) 3 sets of 50-rep leg extensions. Do the reps *slow* and *controlled*. Squeeze at the top. Stop the bar at the bottom; i.e. don't "bounce and throw" the weight around. I think it's ok if you can't get the 50 reps on the 3rd set. Shoot for a weight that let's you get at least half, and the have someone help you get to 50. [ On the machine that I do these on, I do the sets with 40, 60 and 80 lbs. I get the 80 for about 40 reps, and then do forced ones. ] Also, do the reps leaning back against the pad; i.e. get that stretch, and feel the reps in the upper, as well as the lower, quad. Now the fun begins! 2> 20-rep squats. These squats are done a little differently than normal, and may in fact be a problem if you're lower back is not up-to-snuff. But as long as your lower back isn't injured - then do 'em! 'cause you're gonna need to bring up your lower back one way or another. Anyway, the stance is a very close one - maybe 8-10 inches apart. [ you do the conversion to those silly centimeter thingies... ] You go down until parallel, or a little lower. With the close stance, you're gonna have to stick your butt out in the bottom position. Keep your back flat. Yes - you're gonna feel your lower back. Lower the weight slowly and under control. DO NOT bounce out of the bottom. Come to almost a complete stop - and then slowly start to raise yourself up. Don't let your knees wobble. Squeeze your quads all the way up, and really feel them contract. Come all the way back up. [ BTW, if you squat low enough, you *will* feel your ass! ] We usually do 2 "warmup" sets, and 2 "all out" sets. The warmup consists of 1) the empty, 45 lb bar - and trust me, you'll be like "Holy shit..." 2) 135 lbs *My* next 2 sets would be 185 and then 225. [ my partner would do 225 and then 275 ] The 185 would be ok, but pretty grueling. With the 225, I never quite made it past about 18 - and that was with a spot, and including screaming-bloody- crashing-into-the-cage failure. Finally - 1) 3 sets of 25-rep leg extensions. But his time, lean up off the pad, so that you can feel the movement more in the teardrop. Again, slow and controlled. We sometimes "play around" on this movement, in terms of rep-scheme; i.e. ascending pyramid, descending, straight sets, up-n-down, whatever... Just do it. Note: On all your sets of extensions, DO NOT hold on to the seat or the handles. Try keeping your hands folded across your chest or on the sides of your quads. Have fun and go nuts... p.s. You might want to move the garbage can close to the squat rack. You never know when you're gonna spew... Ron Cecchini - ronbo@arnold.ndhm.gtegsc.com Discipline - Desire - Determination - Dedication ------------------------------------------------------------------------- To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi. Due to the double-blind, any mail replies to this message will be anonymized, and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned. Please report any problems, inappropriate use etc. to admin@anon.penet.fi.