Subject: Re: Stiff-legged deadlifts & my back Date: 4 Jun 91 01:25:30 GMT Originator: glex@nitro In article , janeczko@etd4260a.erim.org (Mike "RA" Janeczko) writes: |> the infamous stiff-legged deadlifts. My roomate just about flipped when I told |> him how I do them, that is by myself. He suggested that having a partner |> putting one hand on your lower back and one on your chest while standing at |> back (esp the lower back). Another thing is never, swing past 90 degrees, this |> puts excessive stress on the back. He almost "flipped".... You just started doing a new exercise, your body isn't used to this motion. Use lighter weights, keep your head up, lean back slightly at the top. Forget the spotter, not only will he/she get in the way, using one will slow your development of the important muscles and probably will lead to injury due to bad form and underdevelopment. If you feel any pain drop the weight and stand up slowly. Warm up the lower back and stretch the legs before you start lifting. -- glex@nitro.cray.com === " The harder you try the harder it is.. " Subject: Re: Lower Lats .. Date: 14 Jul 91 02:07:13 GMT In article , aleck@hydrogen.ecn.purdue.edu (Aleck Alexopoulos) says: > >jwabik@uc.msc.umn.edu (Jeff Wabik) writes: > >>I'm curious what you hardcore bodybuilders do for lower-lat work. I've >>used an aggressive regimen of pulldowns (to front, to rear), rows, >>T-Bar, pullups, etc, for over 2 years, and have some good upper-lat >>development, but I just can't seem to get a good sweep down into the >>waist. Must be something subtle I'm missing here? #################### Low pulley rows with the pulley set to appoximately the height of your lower abdomen will work your lower lats rather well if you do the exercise correctly. Concentrate on pulling with your lats, think of your forearms and hands as hooks and just use your lats to pull your upper arms back. Also, make sure to get a good stretch at the bottom of the movement by leaning forward and allowing your arms to extend completely so that your lats are stretched. When you pull the handle in, pull it to your lower abs as you arch your lower back and push your chest outward. Pause in the contracted postion for a second and then lower the weight. Also, try using pulley handles with different grip widths(if you have access to them), to see which one gives you the best hit on you lower lats. As far as reps go, do a pyramid starting with 15 reps on the first set and then work your way down to 10 reps for your last set. Make sure you use a weight that you can handle without cheating and using your lower back to help get it up. Hope this helps you out. ===================================================== Bill (WFP101 @ PSUVM) == Subject: Re: Problems with Lat Pulldown Date: 2 Oct 91 16:04:59 GMT In article <1991Oct2.005453.1496@uniwa.uwa.oz.au>, linda@psy.uwa.oz.au (Sarah Connor) writes: > Whenever I try to increase weight on the lat pulldown machine from totally > pathetic to rather pathetic I end up with a pain in the tricep of my left arm, > very close to the elbow. I never notice this during the workout, only the next > day and it tends to occur only when I move my elbow in certain ways. > > Any suggestions on what it is I'm straining and what I can do to avoid it? > Obviously, 'stop doing lat pulldowns' is one solution. I've done this for a > period of 2 months or so then started again on really low weights and slowly > built up but as soon as I actually start having to put in some effort > to bring the bar down I end up with the aforementioned pain. Is there anything Is this "pain" a muscular pain, or something else? Old injury? If you're doing pulldowns properly, there should be NO WAY you're using triceps for anything.. Sounds like you've either got an old injury you're aggrivating with some portion of your workout, or, you're using poor form when you do your pulldowns. Start with the back STRAIGHT, or arched slightly.. Grip no closer than shoulder width. Good stretch at the top (you should feel the scapula move up), pull down the scapula, then complete the movement with the lats by moving the elbows down, in the same plane as the upper body. Fully contract, and then slowly return to the starting position. Repeat. If anything, depending on grip, you'll feel this hit your forearm and bi's a bit.. I rarely see anyone do lat pulldowns correctly.. Most roll their shoulders over forward, or, start doing "crunches" with their abs.. Remember.. The goal here is to work the lats to failure, not to see how any times you can touch the the back of your neck! Use correct form, and you'll avoid injury while maximizing your training! > I can try before I ditch this exercise for good? Unless you've really got some irreversible injury, I'd never suggest "ditching" any exercise. Makes for a horrible lack of symmetry. Figure out what's wrong, and fix it. -Jeff Jeff Wabik E/Mail: jwabik@msc.edu Subject: Re: Deadlift form ... Date: 27 Jan 92 05:35:51 GMT > >I'm not sure if my deadlife form is correct, mainly because the bar > >keeps hitting my knees coming up and down. I would rest my heels on a > >block of wood with limited success. Anybody else run into problems > >like this? > I've always tried to do deadlifts in such a way that the bar is in > contact with my legs throughout the lift. This prevents me from > leaning out from the waist and overstressing my lower back. So I > start the lift with the bar resting against my shins, and then drive > with my legs, keeping the bar close to my lower leg, knee and finally > the thigh. Now I'm not scraping hard on my legs, I just use them as a > guide to help me keep good form throughout the lift. I think Yep.. This is the way to do it.. of course, there are several different styles of deadlift.. "normal" stance, Sumo stance, etc, and each has its own grip, etc.. You always want the bar to be in contact with your legs as Dave describes. > I've never tried using a block of wood under my heels in a deadlift, > but I tried this while squatting and hated it. I don't think any > advantage related to heel elevation is worth the instability brought > on by that piece of wood. Not for my body anyway. Using block of wood under the heels for squatting is one thing.. (Called a high-heel squat, or board squat), but.. for deadlifts? NOT. I could only imagine that a block of wood under my heels would destroy my stability.. Stand on the floor.. If you're lifting serious weight, about the last thing you need is another distraction. Sidenote: High-heel squats are a great exercise, Dave... With feet right below the hips, and concentrating on pushing with the heel, you can really beat the shit out of your lower front thigh.. I usually do a squat like this every-other routine. Works wonders. For FUN, try doing front squats like this. *grin* > Hey, does anyone out there have a deadlift routine that's worked > particularly well for them? I've been doing mainly low reps, but I > recently have been doing a few sets of 10-12, and it seemed to cause a > lot more soreness the next day. What kinds of reps/sets do all you > deadlifters do? I got on a "power program" a few months ago. For lower back, I had heavy day/light day, with 3 days rest inbetween. e.g. Heavy lower back Monday; Lite lower back Thursday; Heavy again the following Tuesday. The scheme was alllll out 3x5 deads (with PERFECT form, that is, no bouncing, bar rides the front of your leg, no bending at the knee until the bar is below the knee..) with normal stance/narrow grip, on heavy day.. Light day was 3x15 hyperextensions.. I did heavy back (pullups, rows, etc..) and light hams on heavy lower back day; light back (lite T-Bar, unweighted pullups, etc) and heavy hams on light lower back day.. On a 12 week program, I added 135lbs to my deads. For me, the key was to keep the form perfect, and to do as much weight as I could safely deal with for all 5 reps... also, I took lots of rest inbetween sets.. I'd only drop maybe 10lbs for subsequent sets. If I could get 6 reps, I did 'em.. The first few weeks, I was up 20lbs/week.. the middle part of the program was up 10lbs/week, and a few weeks before I changed programs I was only able to move up about 5lbs/week. Most triumphant... After a few weeks, the knowledge that the program was working SO WELL and that I'd be able to add at least 10lbs, DROVE ME. Try it. As for your 10-12 rep scheme.. Every body is different.. but.. Mostly that's sort of range you'll use on a light day, for a light exercise.. IMO, deads are not designed to be a "light" exercise.. To build strength and to make your erector spinae's STAND OUT, BEAT them up with lots of weight.. and be intense. Jeff Wabik E/Mail: jwabik@msc.edu Subject: Re: Pulldowns or Pullups? Date: 21 Feb 92 19:09:13 GMT > I have a lot of trouble getting my back to grow. Which do people think is Let's talk details. > a better exercise, pulldowns of pullups (ie chins?). I know that supposedly "better"? Does that mean to ask "which grows muscle faster"? The reality is that neither of them is "better", as it were.. Both exercises are almost identical in motion.. The difference being that if you can't pullup your own body weight, you'd best stick to pulldowns. 8^) Seriously, though... If you use proper form, both are excellent -- its mostly a question of how much load you can handle (or want to handle). Assuming you can do both, the correct answer is to try them both and decide which works best for you. I've found that for "heavy day", weighted pullups work best for me.. On light day, when I'm just after some good bloodflow, I'll do pulldowns.. Without the almost unavoidable swinging-motion that pullups cause, I find that I can isolate and nail form perfectly on pulldowns whereas the pullups are always a little shy of that. > chins are 'it' as far as width goes, but find it difficult to get the same 'it'? Width has got nothing to do with "chins", per se.. Certainly, you can use pullups/downs to hit the lats which will give you width.. Of course, you can also do pullups/downs to hit the biceps which isn't going to do diddly squat for your back. Its all in how you do the exercise.. > feeling as in pulldowns. Also, should they (either chins or pulldowns) be done > to the front or the back for best results? Most of the current top people Screw what most people prefer.. LEARN what the different variations of the exercise DO for you, and the implement those instances that move you toward meeting your goals. > seem to prefer to the front. How about grip width - close, medium, or w i d e? The closer the grip, the more you hit the inner back.. Too close, and you shift MOST of the load off on the biceps. The wider the grip, the more you hit the outer back... Middle grip is someplace inbetween. (Rocket science, eh?). To the back generally leaves your body in a more upright position, which tends to isolate the lats more directly. To the front generally causes the body to be tilted back slightly, which shifts some of the load to the middle back. As far as 'feeling'.. I suspect its because you're not getting the same isolation on the pullups.. Probably a combination of the fact that pullups are much HARDER in general, and more difficult to get perfect form. > How about bent-over rows? Is it better to take a wide grip, or one about > shoulder width? Actually, the people who do this exercise seem to fall into Again.. Different grips.. Different purposes.. neither is "right" or "wrong". Grips are generally the same as for pulldowns. The further out on the bar you grip -- the further out on your back you work; the closer, the more you work the inside. > two broad categories (i) use light to medium weights, do the exercise slowly > and contract and hold at the top; (ii) use heavy weights and don't focus on > feel so much. I have been doing mostly the latter, but without many positive > results (with a shoulder-width grip). Jeff's rules of bodybuilding say that you should always always always isolate the intended muscle, and then work it throughout its entire range of motion. My favorite thing to tell people who as is, "Pretend you get points for both weight AND style." I usually use enough weight such that I can get 80-90% of my reps isolating the muscle in question (i.e. Slow, controlled movements.. concentrating on perfect form.. keeping the load on the muscle as long as possible), and then have to cheat a bit to get the last few. Clearly, those people you're talking about in (ii) are getting more of a lower-back workout than what they're actually trying to do. > Do you think T-Bars are better than bent over rows? Completely different exercises. Quit thinking "better/worse", and start thinking about what the exercises do, and why, and then figure out which works best to satisfy your goals. -- Jeff Wabik E/Mail: jwabik@msc.edu Subject: Isolating back muscles: replies Date: 3 Mar 92 01:37:25 GMT Many thanks to all those who responded to my request for advise on form for back exercises. In case it is of general interest to anyone else (and because someone asked me to!) I will summarise the collected wisdom briefly: In general, concentrate on moving the weight with relevant back muscle, and try and let the arms simply "go along for the ride". Sounds obvious and simple, doesn't it, but in practise it can be difficult to achieve. Tips to help: o Maintain strict form; back straight, row handle pulled in to below the chest etc. o Focus on rotating shoulder blades in/down as appropriate. o Keep movement steady as momentum assistance usually comes from arms. o Pulldowns with close pronated grip can allow you to work the back harder by preventing arms tiring as quickly. o Wrist straps to obviate the need to grip the bar can also help. Thanks again Dennis -- Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1992 20:15:49 GMT > >1) What is the proper form for bent-over rows? (what do your elbows >do?) Proper form is, of course, somewhat open to dispute. This is how I do them. First point, I maintain an arch in my back (not a bow, an arch!). This definitely reduces poundage somewhat, but seems to help me isolate my mid-back better (I usually work out with 155 or 165 this way). If your gym has a rowing stand, even better. A rowing stand has a pad for your chest, which is height adjustable. You can place your upper chest on the pad and then really isolate the midback. The spot to which you pull the bar affects the exact area this exercise hits, i.e. higher hits higher and versa vicey. You grab the bar with an overhand grip (some dispute even this!) and pull the bar to the desired point (mine's the bottom of the rib cage). What happens to your elbows depends on your grip. I use a roughly shoulder width grip and pull my elbows out to the side. If you use a wider grip, your elbows will tend to go further back and less out. I hope this helps more than confuses. The point is, you should work the exercise in a way that hits your muscles best. Start with a light enough weight that you can feel where the muscle fibers are being stressed the most. Play with grip, pull point, etc. The most important thing in building muscle is to feel what you're doing so you can see if you're hitting what you want. > >2) Given a limited amount of time (1 hour tops) in a fully equipped >gym (I take care of aerobics by running) what routine(s) give you the >most "bang for the buck" in terms of strength/mass building? How >should I organize my workout to get the most efficient use of my time? > Answer #1: Squats Answer #2: Depends how many days per week, but see Answer #1 Mark From: wet@niksula.hut.fi (Vesa T|rm{nen) Subject: Re: Question about bent over rows Date: 19 Oct 92 12:41:29 In article <92292.182207U28022@uicvm.uic.edu> writes: I am not a beginner (3 yrs) and my question is this: Is there any benefit in the barbell bent-over rows that is not in the dumbbell bent-over rows that I am missing because I only use dumbbells now? I think DB rows are mostly a lower lat exercise. In mags BB rows are usually recommended for back thickness. They work the lats and other back muscles too. I do both, BB rows more often. When you do bent-over rows with a barbell, keep your back straight and if you feel stress in your lower back, allow your knees to bend more. About 50% of the people I see doing these keep their backs hunched and legs straight and it hurts my back just to look at them. ...... bhang, jain, brown sugar wet@niksula.cs.hut.fi From: poo@athena.mit.edu (Claude Poux) Subject: Re: Lats Pulldowns & Biceps Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1992 18:47:54 GMT In article RDavies@cen.ex.ac.uk (Roy.Davies) writes: >The amount of exercise I can do for my lats using pulldowns >behind the neck with a pulley system seems to be severely >limited by the strenght of my arms. Even with relatively >light weights, light enough for 15 reps per set the lower >part of my biceps just above the elbow gets quite sore. lat pulldowns (behind-the-neck and front-of-the-neck) are very form-dependent for effectiveness. since your biceps are getting so sore, you are probably not doing pull-downs correctly. when you grip the bar, your thumb must be on the same side of the bar as your fingers. i see many beginners gripping the bar with their thumbs going around the underside of the bar -- this grip works the biceps bigtime! and that certainly is not what you want to do when doing lat pulldowns! do you do both behind-the-neck and front-of-the-neck pulldowns? behind-the-neck tends to work the traps and rhomboideus, whereas the front-of-the neck pulldowns, which simulate pull-ups closely, work the lats pretty rigorously. i think, too, that 15 reps is a bit much. i recommend 4-5 sets (including a light warm-up set) of 12, 10, 10, 8, (8). (also consider that behind-the-neck stuff is very stressful on shoulders.) >I thought my arms would soon get used to the weight but >after 3 sets twice a week for a month there is still no >sign of that. Exercises specifically for the biceps don't >usually cause me the same problem (except when my arms >are particularly sore from the pulldowns). No doubt if >I reduced the weight sufficiently the problem would go >away but I doubt if my lats would get any benefit then as >they never feel particularly tired after pulldowns. when you begin the motion, do not jerk the weight. this puts stress on your arms -- especially forearms, and you can actually pull a forearm muscle this way (no fun!). use a weight that will allow you to pull in a deliberative fashion. and concentrate on doing the pulling with your lats. if you incorporate all of this, you should feel the effects the following morning, and start seeing results in 6-10 weeks. good luck. poobear From: glex@nitro.cray.com (Jeff Gleixner) Subject: Re: grip on seated cable rows? Date: 7 Dec 92 17:10:22 CST In article , MOHR@rz0000.uni-trier.de (Mohr, Stephan ) writes: > which muscles do I work with a narrow grip and pulling more toward > my stomac when I do seated cable rows. And which muscles when I use a > wide grip, ellbows pointing outwards and pulling more toward my upper body? > I am still not satisfied with my back-workout. Narrow grip pull down to stomach... Unless these are done with stiff arms, dump em'. Pull it to your upper chest so your elbows are behind your body. Generally,the wider the grip the wider, in relation to the spine, the muscles that are worked. (narrow grip - area between shoulder blades wide grip - outter back/lats). Try rows, pull-downs to the front, seated rows. To work the back the back has to do the work... I know this sounds stupid, but most (I'd guess %80) people use their arms to do the pulling, mainly because they are using too much weight. You have to concentrate on your shoulder blades. Try to get them to touch each other. The movement should start with the shoulder blades moving the weight not your arms. It's hard to do correctly and I've only seen a few people, out of hundreds, do it correctly (they're usually the ones with a very wide back...). I'd suggest using a light weight and doing the exercise, lets say bent-over rows, without bending your arms for the 1st half of the lift. All that will move is your shoulders and shoulder blades, which will call on your lats to pull. Then lower the weight by making your back fan out and stretch. Once you understand what it is you should be feeling you can begin to use the arms to further squeeze and develop your back. A good workout usually has -Pull-ups or pull-downs -Bent-over barbell/dumbbell/T-bar Rows -Seated cable rows - elbows right by your ribs Light weight slow intense pulls. Vary the grip(wide/narrow) and where you pull the bar (higher/lower) to hit many different angles. -- glex@nitro.cray.com === "Difficult tasks are never easy..." From: phys2108@waikato.ac.nz Subject: Re: Traps & Rear Delts Date: 11 Mar 93 13:56:26 +1300 In article <1993Mar9.204314.463@indyvax.iupui.edu>, itmj500@indyvax.iupui.edu writes: > In article , "Ryan E. Rasmussen" writes: >> Two questions: >> >> 1. How can the traps between the shoulder blades be developed? I have >> no meat between my shoulder blades, which are developed from chins and >> rows. Shrugs seem to work the traps only up by the neck. >> >> 2. I do bent-over lateral raises for rear delts, but just can't seem to >> feel my delts being worked. Any tips or alternate exercises? >> >> Ryan >> Alot of people like to group shoulder in with back training and for good reason. Your rear deltoids are used extensively when you train your back, especially with the rowing type exercises. A problem alot of people have with rows is that they don't know how to use their back muscles, they use their biceps too much. With cable rows start in a pretty much 90 degree position, arms straight holding the grips (don't use your max weight). Relax your shoulders forward as much as you can. Shrug your shoulders back as far as you can, pulling the weight with you. Next pull the weight with your arms, except trying to "push" the weight back with your elbows (think about this and hopefully it will make sense). You'll find that it is no where nearly as bicept intensive if you do it like this. When you get the weight back as far as you think you can, try and push you chest as far forward as you can and pull your shoulders as far back as you can. Then release the weight slowly back, I feel that this is perhaps more important in back exercises than in most of the other muscle groups. Also, try not to lean back too far with cable rows. You'll see guys with big back muscles cheating in exercises like these, but watch them for all their sets, they will (usually) start with a lighter weight, work it strictly and work up in weight, only cheating enough to finish off the exercise. They can do this because they know how to feel the weight in the right places, they know how to do this because they have done it for a long time. Hope this makes sense, and keep to a mass exercise like cable rows rather than reverse fly type exercises, they'll prove more productive in the long run. Geoff. From: aleck@athena.mit.edu (Aleck H Alexopoulos) Subject: Re: Outer Traps Date: 27 Aug 1993 20:58:00 GMT In article , jed3@Isis.MsState.Edu (Joseph E. Dunston) writes: |> I would like advice on working the outer end of my traps. |> The inner end is climbing up my head and slopes down to my |> shoulder. I do mainly shrugs with a barbell to work my traps. |> I use a slightly wider than shoulder width grip with one palm |> facing me and the other palm facing away from me. I swap |> which way the palm is facing on alternating sets. I do |> 2 sets of 20 with 135, 2 sets of 20 with 225, 2 sets of 15 |> 5 with 405, as many as I can with |> 505 which is usually only 2 or 3. I am making strength and |> size ganes but the size is on the inner trap. |> Got any ideas?? |> Genetics of course determines the general shape of your muscles BUT you still try to push the "genetic envelope" with the appropriate exercises. One exercise that can help is doing shrugs with a special diamond shaped bar. With this bar you stand in the middle and the bar goes around you, front and back, and joins at the sides: something like this: /\ __/ \__ \ / \/ Well what this does is it stretches your traps outwards as you lift up. Also, you dont have to lean those few inches forward that you have to with straight barbell shrugs. You may be able to get a similar affect by just using a wider grip with your shrugs. Also try doing dumbell shrugs lifting the dumbells from the side - not from in front. Another exercise that may help is doing deadlifts with a very wide grip. So wide that you need to hold the weights themselves rather than the bar. I've only tried this once as a finishing off exercise after my shrugs. It hurt. Finally, another thing that you may try is to put emphasis on doing FULL-range movements. The heavy stuff is great for developing the belly of the muscle but its a good idea to do a couple of low-weight low-ego full-range sets that actually helps define the muscle's shape. |> Thanks in advance. |> |> Joseph |> jed3@ra.msstate.edu |> |> with 315, 2 sets of 10 to 15 Aleck From: glex@calamity.cray.com (Jeff Gleixner) Subject: Re: ...Feeling Pumped from Back Exercises (HELP!) Date: 24 Sep 93 14:03:43 CDT In article <1993Sep23.170441.7410@spectrum.xerox.com>, ngai.roch817@xerox.com (Peter Ngai) writes: > Does anyone else have this problem. My list of exercises are: > - Bent over BB row > - T-Bar row > - low pulley row > - chins or lat pulldowns > I get a little pumped, but nothing compared to other body parts like chest... > Is this normal? Maybe my form is off? Maybe I use too much weight? Working the back is much harder because most people concentrate on moving the weight, which usually means that your biceps are used a lot more than your back. suggestions: - Do only 2 exercises, 1 row and 1 pulldown/up. - Think about your back pulling the weight and your shoulder blades squeezing together. Visualize that your shoulder blades are trying to hold a pencil which is placed between your blades. - Start the movement with your shoulders & back, not with your arms. So in bent-over rows the shoulders come back then the arms bend. In seated rows your elbows should be to your chest before your arms begin to pull. - Get the thumb out of the grip - Use a weight that you can keep up & squeezed for a second on most reps. - Try not to use the biceps, THINK about your back being pulled and squeezed, not about the weight you're lifting. -- glex@nitro.cray.com === "Difficult tasks are never easy..." From: eboltz@acoustica.mrd.bldrdoc.gov (Eric S. Boltz) Subject: Re: Lats!! Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 16:05:29 GMT In article <16OCT199312042551@venus.cc.hollandc.pe.ca> young@venus.cc.hollandc.pe.ca (DEI GRATIA) writes: > Hi, > Can anyone tell me what the best exersise is for widening the lats. I have > heard/read a lot about different exersises with different hands grips and > would like to hear what other people found worked best. Thanks, Contrary to what most people will say, I will claim that the excercises that hit the lats the hardest are *properly performed* close-grip pullups and close-grip pulldowns. Here's the proper form: Close-grip pullups - arch the back and neck and pull the grips toward the very lowest portion of the pecs or (if you can) the abs. If you haven't done these before *and* you're doing them correctly you should only be able to do a couple. When you get too tired to get all the way up, do *NOT* alter form to complete the pullup. It is much better to go only a few inches up than to shift the emphasis of the excercise off the lats. Close-grip pulldowns - start with your hands straight up and your back arched. Slowly pull down *without bending at the elbow*. After the first four inches or so you will have to start bending at the elbow - that's ok. As you continue to pull down (again aiming for just below the pecs or the abs) lean back so that you are at about a 45 degree angle at the bottom of the pulldown. NOTE: normally we are taught *not* to change position during an exercise motion - this exercise is an acception! Leaning back forces the lats to do more work and allows more of this "fan" muscle to be brought into play. If you don't think these hit the lats try this: 3 compound sets of Close-grip (either pulldowns or pullups) and inclined rows (bent over rows if you don't have the incline row device). 1 set of normal pullups or wide-grip pulldowns at your normal weight. Those lats a bit spent eh? Eric From: krw@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (keith.r.smith) Subject: Re: feeling the lats Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 22:34:25 GMT In article "Ryan E. Rasmussen" writes: >Hi Keith, > >I must confess that I have never actually tried undergrip pulldowns. I >do, however, use close-grip pulldowns (with the triangle chinning >handle) and these have improved my lower lats dramatically, though I >don't really look "wider." > >Here's something I've been thinking about; see if it makes any sense. >The general notion in obtaining the classic V-taper is to "widen the >lats." It seems to me that most people don't know what it is they >need/want to "widen." The close-grip or undergrip work will develop the >latissimus dorsii, or lower lats, but something else is needed to work >the teres major, or upper lats, to obtain the "V." Wide-grip chins and >pulldowns and bent-over rows hit the teres major, so maybe this is why >these exercises are so often recommended. > >Ryan Hi Ryan! The lat is a very large muscle that for all effects and purposes behaves as 3 muscles: the "inboard" lats, or spinal erectors, serve to arch the back (these run alongside of the spine) the "outboard" lats serve to pull the shoulders downward and assist in pulling the elbows in to the sides (these run from the armpit down the side to the small of the back) the "upper" lats serve to pull the shoulders back and to swing the elbows outward (these run from the armpit to the spine, just under the shoulders) "Widening the lats" will involve thickening the "upper lats" _and_ the "outboard" lats. Working the upper lats will enhance your width, while working the outboard lats will enhance your fullness. Actually, if you do work for your upper lats, then you can't help but hit a bit of the outboard lats, and vice-versa. What I see all to often are guys who seem to do the upper-lat work for the width, while neglecting the effective work for the outboard lats. They are easy to spot. They are the ones with "tons" of thickness up top, but the mass of the lats falls off well before the small of the back. I prefer the "full all the way down" look, myself. As you mention, any kind of wide-grip work is gonna' primarily hit the upper lats, as will bent rowing or seated rowing. Close-grip overhead work, especially with the undergrip, is gonna primarily hit the outboard lats, as will any style of dips (of course, the pecs/delts/tris usually "give out" first in this movement). Bent-arm pullovers tend to hit the upper lats and the serratus (the stress is off of the muscle too soon in the movement for it to have any meaningful effect on the lower lats. BTW, I tried those undergrip, close-grip pulldowns in the shoulders-hunched posture that I wrote about yesterday. They definitely feel better that way. I can flex my ouboard lats better in this movement when I hunch the shoulders around. This movement is the only exception to my "shoulders- back-and-arch" rule for lat work. Keith R <<<< Mad Cross-Trainer and Cycling Zealot >>>> From: eboltz@acoustica.mrd.bldrdoc.gov (Eric S. Boltz) Subject: Lats Killer Date: Tue, 26 Oct 1993 16:10:12 GMT Ok Keith and other Lat-burning folks! Yesterday I got the best lat burn yet and I thought I'd post the "how" and see if it works for other folks. Towards the end of this routine my lats really hurt and I'm good and sore today. Please give it a try and let me know if it works for you! Here's what I did (I'll describe the exercises after): (All exercises are with weight such that the last rep is almost impossible) / "Scapular Rows" \ 3 supersets < > 8 reps, 20-30 second rests \ "Close-grip pulldowns"/ 3 sets "wide-grip, behind the neck, lat pull-downs" 8 reps, 20-30 sec rests Exercises: _Scapular_Rows_ These are intended to be used for pre-fatiguing the lats. They look strange if you haven't seen them, but they work. Hold the lat pulldown bar in a fairly wide grip in a seated position. Lean *slightly* back and pull the bar down using the lats. The elbows should bend just *slightly* at the end of the motion. Total movement of the bar should be about 4-6 inches. Basically you're doing the beginning of a lat pulldown, but stopping at the point where the biceps start to kick in. You should be able to use *heavy* weight. _Close-Grip_Pulldowns_ Use a v-shaped handle on the lat pulldown cable. Sit as far forward as possible with hands directly overhead. Start the pulldown using only the back and lats. As you continue to pull down lean back so that at the end of the pulldown you are at about a 45 degree angle with the v-grip just below the pecs. Do these *slowly*. Try to arch your back as you lean back (i.e. stick your chest out). _Wide-Grip_Pulldowns_ Using the wide lat pulldown bar sit as far forward as possible. Arch the back so that your chest sticks out and your shoulders are back. Keep your head up throughout the movement. Hunching the head and shoulders forward will take the stress *off* the lats. Pull the bar down behind the head as far as possible. Concentrate on using just the lats for the first part of the motion before you start to bend your elbows. The motion should be similar to trying to touch your elbows behind your back (if you can do this please see a doctor). Eric From: eboltz@acoustica.mrd.bldrdoc.gov (Eric S. Boltz) Subject: Scapular Rolls (Was:Re: lat pulldowns) Date: 8 Dec 93 15:05:00 GMT In article <2e37ta$qp2@pt.olympus.net> simmonds@pt.olympus.net (Bob Simmonds) writes: > Wow! 40 years I've doing this stuff, and this is a new one to me...would > someone please explain how to do "scapular rolls"? You can do Scapular Rolls on either a chinning bar or a lat pulldown machine. The basic idea is to lift your weight (or pull the stack on the pulldown mach) as far as you can using *only* the lats. To do this grasp the bar with a wide grip as you would for pullups or wide-grip pulldowns. Now pull using your back as if to touch your elbows behind your back and as if you wanted to touch the bar to your upper pec area, pull *only* to the point where your elbows want to start bending (thus bringing the biceps into play). The total range of motion is about 5-7 inches. It looks silly, but it works the lats well. If you superset it with close-grip pullups, dumbell rows or wide-grip pullups you'll really feel the lats. Eric From: glex@snoid.cray.com (Jeff Gleixner) Subject: Re: Benefit of Chinups??? Date: 21 Jan 94 16:20:31 CST In article <1994Jan20.124031.22981@clark.dgim.doc.ca>, dave@clark.dgim.doc.ca (Dave Thompson) writes: |> I would like to know exactly how doing chinups would benefit me. What muscles |> benefit most from the workout? All of your upper-body pulling muscles & forearms. |>What is the proper technique, hands close or far apart? Basically... Hand placement- Close<------------------->wide Body part stressed- Biceps<------------------>Lats That's not to say the Lats aren't being used just that the Bi's are being used much more than the Lats, with a close grip, and the Lats more than the Bi's with a wide grip. The rear delt and traps are also used. |>Palms facing me or away from me? Facing you stresses biceps. Away stresses Lats. The biggest "mistake" people make when doing pull-ups is the use their biceps more than their lats. It's a pretty hard exercise to do correctly, when you do it right you know it. What I tell people is get the thumb out of the grip, pull-up and lean back as if you're going to touch your sternm to the bar and squeeeeeeeeze the shoulder blades together. On the way down try to stay leaned back and let your back fan out first then let your arms straighten out. Lower yourself very slow 4-6 seconds and try to feel your back spreading out. Don't use them to work your Bi's, there are much better exercises. Use a fairly wide grip and pull to the front. I'd also suggest doing these as your first back exercise, since it is a basic movement. For back I like to do the following: Pull-ups: 1 warm-up, 2 to failure bent-over, or t-bar rows: same seated cable rows: same Hyper-extensions: 2 sets of 10 (add weight when needed) -- glex@nitro.cray.com === "Difficult tasks are never easy..." From: Richard Fahey Subject: Re: Info request re: DEADLIFTS Date: 17 Mar 1994 17:27:44 GMT In article <2ma29i$9na@panix2.panix.com> Paul Gatker, paul@panix.com writes: >perpindicular to the ground as I lift. Someone else said I should try >leaving the bar behind my feet, and lift it up this way. This seemed a bit >too advanced a maneuver for me at this point. (He called these hack lifts?) > Ken Leistner, who writes for Powerlifting USA, does not recommend doing hack lifts. While it is often possible to lift more weight this way than conventional deadlifts, they supposedly put a lot of stress on your knees. Deadlifting necessarily involves the back muscles a lot. There is also a variation, "Stiff-legged deadlifts", where the contribution of the legs to the lift is minimized (don't lock the legs out straight, though - keep the a little bent, but stiff). Most sources on deadlift form say not to round the back, nor hyperextend it (this often happens at the top of the lift). This might be the source of confusion on the style to use - keeping the back straight and keeping it upright are two different things. Keep the back straight, flexing at the hips to angle the back. Keep your head up and eyes looking forward. Breath out during the pull. Don't jerk the weight from the floor, or bounce it off the floor between reps. If you lift the weight standing on a small platform, the weight can be lowered to "floor level" without actually touching the floor. Form is everything in this lift, as a sloppy style can easily lead to back injuries. This is not a lift to do if you are at all prone to any kind of back problems. Richard From: krs@pruxp.pr.att.com (Keith R. Smith) Subject: Re: back and shoulders--question Date: Tue, 24 Jan 1995 18:17:38 GMT In article <3g1vle$bf2@decaxp.harvard.edu>, Jason Chen wrote: > Hi, I've just got a couple questions about exercising back and >shoulder muscles. I've been lifting for a while, so I consider myself >somewhat experienced. However, I've noticed that my shoulders are >imbalanced--that is, the rear head is much smaller than the anterior >head. I know that people tend to overtrain their anterior heads, so I >have focused on rear and medial delt training. But I still cannot seem >to get the full look--is it genetics? It _could_ be genetics, but it is my bet that it is simply gonna' take some time for your rear delts to catch up with your front delts..... I mean, they _did_ have a bit of a head start:-). > Also, when doing bent over barbell rows, I notice in the mirror that >my body is around 30 degrees above a horizontal plane parallel to the >ground. I think that I do this because I try to keep my back straight as >trainers have advised. But is this correct? Is it better to have the >body almost parallel to the ground? Also, when I lower the weight to get >the full stretch, my back tends to curl over, causing some stress. >Should that be happening? (I do wear a belt) Thanks for any advice. You might try letting your knees bend a little and/or use a t-bar rower. If you feel as if your butt is sticking out (and your chest too), then your form is about right. If you want to get a stretch, then do chins or pulldowns. Speaking of pulldowns.... Have you noticed that most(all?) seated pulldown machines are built "wrong". I mean, the seat is directly under the pulley, and if you use it in the manner that it was designed for, you are more likely to feel the pump in your biceps than in the lats and rear delts. If the seat were about two feet further away from the machine, then the movement would be ideal. The idea is that if you want to fully involve the lats, you also want to arch your back and lean _into_ the movement (I am talking about pulldowns to the front, here). Try this sometime and see if you feel the same thing. Position one end of a moveable bench right up to the seat of the lat pulldown machine. Adjust the height of the bench so that your calves and thighs form a 90 deg angle when seated upright with your heels planted. Sit far enough back on the bench such that if you extend your arms toward the seat and turn your thumbs down, your thumbs would touch the middle of the seat. When you do pulldowns from this position, the cable will come down on an angle, and you will feel little if any strain on your biceps. You should feel it lots in the lats and rear-delts. Use whatever grip you want, but I feel it best with a palms-facing-each other grip. Keith R