3X3 Training Conversation From: Chris and Angie Zell [mailto:azcz@knology.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 10:14 PM Subject: Opinions on 3x3 Just wondering if anyone has any opinions either for/against the 3x3. Personal experiences are welcome :-) I've got a few cycles to play around with and was entertaining the idea, but thought I'd check around for opinions. Thanks, Chris Zell Montgomery, AL Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:05:17 -0500 From: "Clauss, Mike" Subject: RE: Opinions on 3x3 I've posted a few pro 3x3 messages so far so I guess one more won't hurt. Right now I'm in the 3rd week of Phase 1, this is my second cycle using 3x3. After my first cycle ended I took the next Monday off and then on Wednesday I did a mini meet to test for new maxes. I beat all of my projected maxes and felt much stronger in the squat than I ever have. I think all the dl work is really improving my hip/ham/glute strength and it is transferring over to my squats. A few people told me that their arms got smaller when they were on the 3x3 program, I haven't had that problem, but I think the loss was probably biceps related since you don't do any back work and the most work your biceps get are from your dl's. I've also noticed that I'm thinning out a bit but my weight is staying steady, my legs are getting more defined and my abs are poking though more every week. The first phase is the hardest and during week 4 I thought I was going to die before I finished my dl sets, but I'm very happy with the results. Mike Southfield, MI Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 13:07:18 -0000 From: "Mitch Armentrout" Subject: Re: Opinions on 3x3 I have done several cycles of the 3x3 program, the original, and some variations; written my TSO's own Wade Hanna and Chris T., formerly (?) of Ironmag.com. The postitives were: 1. Worked on technique, as a beginner this is something I am still doing. 2. Hit a PR DL 3. I was able to get leaner and stronger, I timed my rest breaks with a stopwatch and supersetted SQ and BP. The negatives: 1. By the end of the last cycle I felt very slow; perhaps this was me overreaching on the projected max. 2. I often found I peaked in the 7 week not the 8 week, again I was most likely overreaching. Other notes: 1. Forget the "energy saving method" lift as fast as possible 2. If you are trying to increase your tri size, you'll need to add tri work or do the majority of your BP with a narrow grip. 3. You can add assistance work in, but you may want to try the program the way it was written the first time. 4. Sled dragging for recovery is a good idea. 5. Some people have adjusted the Reps/Sets to reflect Prilprens (sp?) Table, this is not something I have tried. Mitch Armentrout ermantroudt@hotmail.com 5. Train your abs Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:07:31 -0600 From: "Chris and Angie Zell" Subject: RE: Re: Opinions on 3x3 (Mitch) Mitch, Thanks for the info, that's exactly what I'm looking for. I agree with you on the tri point and I have a fairly narrow grip anyway. Extra tri work ould probably be the only assistance work other than weighted hyperextensions which I've been able to work up to using a 100lb plate for a 4x8..I feel this has really helped my deadlift so I may continue. I'm also a fan of working abs and obliques fairly often which I would continue as well. One other question...how did your warm up sets go? Again, thanks for the info. Chris Zell Montgomery, AL Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 09:19:04 -0500 From: "Clauss, Mike" Subject: RE: Re: Opinions on 3x3 See comments and questions below.. -----Original Message----- From: Mitch Armentrout [mailto:Ermantroudt@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 8:07 AM Subject: Re: Opinions on 3x3 I have done several cycles of the 3x3 program, the original, and some variations; written my TSO's own Wade Hanna and Chris T., formerly (?) of Ironmag.com. The postitives were: 1. Worked on technique, as a beginner this is something I am still doing. 2. Hit a PR DL 3. I was able to get leaner and stronger, I timed my rest breaks with a stopwatch and supersetted SQ and BP. < Why would you super set Squats and BP? What's the logic behind that? The negatives: 1. By the end of the last cycle I felt very slow; perhaps this was me overreaching on the projected max. 2. I often found I peaked in the 7 week not the 8 week, again I was most likely overreaching. < That could be true, it sounds like you were just slightly off. Other notes: 1. Forget the "energy saving method" lift as fast as possible < I do this during the second Phase ONLY. Do not lift fast in Phase 1, focus on form in Phase 1, then explode the weights on your light days in Phase 2. 2. If you are trying to increase your tri size, you'll need to add tri work or do the majority of your BP with a narrow grip. < Not true, my tris grew during my first cycle and are growing during my current cycle as well. To keep the growth going, and work on bench speed, I added a band workout to one light bench day in Phase 2. Phase 1 gives you plenty of Tri work. 3. You can add assistance work in, but you may want to try the program the way it was written the first time. < Yes, do not mess with the workouts until you get through Phase 1, at that point you will be able to spot your weak points and add assistance work. 4. Sled dragging for recovery is a good idea. < That sounds good, I do sprints on my off days. 5. Some people have adjusted the Reps/Sets to reflect Prilprens (sp?) Table, this is not something I have tried. Mitch Armentrout ermantroudt@hotmail.com 5. Train your abs < YES, YES, YES, abs need to be worked. Mike Southfield, MI Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 12:17:28 -0500 From: "Mitch Armentrout" Subject: 3x3 Mike: Much like any training program, we, you an I, responded differently to the same stimulus. That said, to answer your questions about my application of the 3x3: "Why would you super set Squats and BP? What's the logic behind that?" *This was done so I could get 8x5 in the SQ/BP/DL and assistance work; 2 exercise 2-3x8-10, done in less than one hour. "I do this during the second Phase ONLY. Do not lift fast in Phase 1, focus on form in Phase 1, then explode the weights on your light days in Phase 2" *For the lighter percentages to be most effective I feel you should exert maximum force to teach your body to explode, ie WSB Speed Training. I found lifting slowly in Phase I limited how much I could lift by the end of Phase II. "Not true, my tris grew during my first cycle and are growing during my current cycle as well. To keep the growth going, and work on bench speed, I added a band workout to one light bench day in Phase 2. Phase 1 gives you plenty of Tri work." *My tri size is dependant on many things, volume, intensity and caloric intake, etc. I found my BP techique, legal max. width, even doing the all of the reccomend sets, 8x6, does/did not stress my tri's enough to keep them growing. "Yes, do not mess with the workouts until you get through Phase 1, at that point you will be able to spot your weak points and add assistance work." *Personally, I would want to work my weakness before I got to Phase II, to allow for more recovery between heavy workouts. Then again, I am fairly sure of where I am weak, everywhere:) Mitch Armentrout ermantroudt@hotmail.com Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2001 22:49:27 -0600 From: "Chris and Angie Zell" Subject: Week 2 of 3x3 Complete So today I finished my second week of the 3x3. Here are my observations: - It was very difficult for me to adjust to the volume initially. For the first few workouts I would even take 2-3 days off between workouts...I was just too sore in the hips and hams. I'm sure this was due also to me switching from conventional deadlifts to sumo. During this second week I recovered more quickly, and seemed to adjust to the volume better. - The workouts seem to allow me to focus more on technique. Being of 'average' (I use this term loosely) strength I think that I really needed to focus on the big 3 lifts and ensure my technique and mechanics of the lifts were on point before adapting a Westside style approach which in my opinion tends to benefit those who are of above average strength (and experience). - I have been able to make every prescribed rep thus far for each set and each rep. I hope this continues but I'm concerned with the weights coming up in Phase 2. Hopefully the additional volume for weeks 3 and 4 will prepare me for this. Should I expect to miss on any attempts if I began the program with my true maxes? The maxes I used were taken from a meet just days prior to beginning the 3x3 so they are as accurate as they're going to get. In any case, the 3x3 is a change, so that's always welcome (as are any additional comments/suggestions!) Chris Zell Montgomery, AL Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 13:09:03 -0600 From: "bobc" Subject: Re: Week 2 of 3x3 Complete I have just finished my first week of 3x3. I really liked it. The additonal volume rocked me monday and wednesday, but was not bad on friday. I went to the 3x3 because my deadlift has been so problematic and after just one week i am feeling so much more confident about my deadlift. I do worry a little about my lockout on the bench so i have been useing a close grip on the bench about half the time and throwing in a few triceps exercises. I will keep u all informed. bobc Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2001 12:25:36 -0600 From: "Chris and Angie Zell" Subject: Third Week of 3X3 Finished So I just finished week 3 of the 3X3. The deadlifts seem to be increasingly easier, even though the weight has gone up. During squats this morning however, I thought I would miss a few reps (I did DL first) but I made it through every rep. The bench has still been easy. One more week of the high volume crap, then into the competition phase. My DL is still waaay ahead of my squat..still not sure why. For anyone who is interested, you can check out the worksheet (Excel format) at http://www.geocities.com/chriszell/3x3Workout2.xls with poundages and notes. (thanks to Brian for the sheet). Chris Zell Montgomery, AL Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:22:17 -0600 From: "bobc" Subject: 3x3 2nd week I have just completed week 2 of the 3x3 and it is going well I have adjusted to the added volume ok. I started this to help me on my deadlift which is my goal f or this year take my deadlift from my poorest lift to my best. It has helped immensly on the body mechanics I have tended to have a lot of trouble with form on the dead and it is rapidly improveing. I did on Wednesday( lift Monday, Wednesday & Friday) add a few triceps sets and plan to continue this all in all I really like the workout so far. bobc Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 14:56:40 -0600 (Central Standard Time) From: "Moore, Joshua T" Subject: 3x3 program Hey listers, I'm normally just a list lurker trying to soak up as much info as I can and so far I've learned a lot. Once I finish with the NASA powersports nationals on Feb 4th, I will be getting ready to start a new training cycle and I was thinking of trying the 3x3 program. I've read all of Korte's articles in the archives and this system looks like an interesting change of pace from the program I have been following. So I have a few questions for those of you who use/have used the 3x3: 1)I have 12 weeks of training time between the PS nationals and my next meet. The 3x3 as written is an 8wk program, any ideas on how to best use/fill out my training time. 2)How long should the narmal workout take in phase I? How much rest time do you take between sets? 3)Has anyone noticed any terrible effects from not using specific assistance exercises? (eg for tricepts, hips, ect) Any input would be appreciated Josh Vanderbilt Powerlifting team Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 06:26:15 -0600 From: "Chris and Angie Zell" Subject: Phase 1 of 3x3 Finished! Phase 1 is done! Yeserday was the last high volume day, and I feel great. Out of all of the workouts in Phase 1, I never used a belt, wraps, etc, and never missed a rep..although there were some days I was sure I would miss. My last workout felt much stronger than my first, even considering the weight went up considerably. I'm looking forward to Phase 2. You can view the progress and notes here http://www.geocities.com/chriszell/3x3Workout2.xls (Excel spreadsheet). Chris Zell Montgomery, AL Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 12:22:47 -0600 From: "Chris and Angie Zell" Subject: Final Results of 3X3 are in! (smashed Total!!) Alright, I'm very excited and typing like a madman..still have chalk and powder all over, so please bear with me! After 8 weeks of the 3X3, here's what the numbers turned out to be: Last meet this past Janurary: Bench: 285 Squat: 330 Dead: 470 Total: 1085 My projected maxes after plugging in my maxes (I adjusted my DL max to 500 since I THOUGHT I pulled it at the meet..got 2 reds, they said I hitched..I didn't want to undershoot my max) Bench: 295 Squat: 355 Dead: 515 Total: 1165 Here's my numbers today in the gym. I'm was lucky enough to have veteran masters lifter and state record holder Ron Lewis on my side to validate the lifts for me, and to generally cheer me on (thanks for the powder, help with the shirt, suit, and your motivation!! It made all the difference!) Bench: 315 (first time ever breaking 300) Squat: 385 (closing in on my 400 goal!) Dead: 505 (not too disappointing considering 470 is still my meet max, plus my first pull over 500) Total: 1205 (120lb gain over my last meet) If anyone's interested, I'm 5"11, 207, and 24 which would put me in the Open division (unfortunately I can't use the Junior excuse anymore!) All in all, the 3X3 WORKED for me. I feel there were many factors involved in my gains. The high volume which allowed me to work on my form; my diet (see food diet) which helped me put on about 10lbs in 8 weeks); plus the fact that the 3X3 provided structure and a quantifiable goal that I could see on paper. Many workouts I've done were merely by 'instinct' and it was hard to focus on a goal. I'd like to think that if I had maxed in a meet this weekend I would have added a few lbs on my total..we all know how different things are in a meet, but thanks to the folks who helped me out, we worked as if we were at a meet as best as we could. Even had a small crowd! Now I know this by no means qualifies me as an expert on the 3X3 but if anyone has any questions from an average guy's point of view, (that being me) I'd love to help. I'd also like to thank the list for their help, and especially to Brian for the spreadsheet. It worked perfectly! Chris Zell Montgomery, AL Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:08:16 -0500 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: My 3x3 modifications. Alright, sorry this is coming late...spent the afternoon polishing a presentation for my class tonight (class-long project that culminated tonight). Anyway, I didn't alter the premise of the set-up too much. Basically shaved off a lot of the 'volume' that it used and tweaked the intensity of each day to vary it some. Looks like this... Phase I (4 weeks) Day 1 Sq: 58-64% (RAW) 2x5 Bp: 68-74% (pauses) 2x3 Dl: 55% (Belt) 12-8x1 (descending singles; add a chain each week after 1) Day II Sq: 68-74% (Belt) Bp: 55% 12-8x3 (descending triples; add a chain each week after 1; comp and reverse grip alternating) SLDL: Weight that feels good! (RAW) 2x5 Day III Sq: 55% (Belt) 12-8x1 (descending singles; add a chain each week after 1) Inc. Bp: 58-64% (of flat BP) 2x5 Dl: 68-74% (Belt) 2x3 **Week of rest** Phase II (3 weeks) Day I Sq: 58% (RAW) 3x3 Bp: 68% (pause) 3x2 Dl: 80/85/90% (Belt + Bottoms) 5/3/2x1 Day II Sq: 68% (Belt) 3x2 Bp: 80/85/90% (pause) 5/3/2x1 SLDL: Weight that is good! (RAW) 3x3 Day III Sq: 80/85/90% (Belt + Bottoms) 5/3/2x1 Inc. Bp: 58% Dl: 68% (Belt) 3x2 *Notes: In this phase I up the singles by 5% each week. Also, remove one set of the 3 each week for 'non-focus' lifts (i.e. 3x3 week1, 2x3 week 2, and 1x3 week 3) Phase III (2 weeks) Day I Dl: 90/95% (Full gear) 2x1 Day II Bp: 90/95% (Shirt) 2x1 Day III Sq: 90/95% (Full gear) 2x1 Part of what I think has helped is a minimal inclusion of some assistance. Day I: Reverse Hypers and Hamsting Curls (3x10) Day II: 'Tricep Hell' Day III: Abs I am not going to do the final two weeks (peak) this time around. That is the final preparation for meets and will save those for when I am ready to fully peak. The singles at 90% with 'half-gear' gives me a pretty good idea where I am. The real neat "secret" I am going to add come meet time is a tip that a friend gave me about being frazzled right before meets. He said he peaked about 4 weeks early and then spent the last 4 weeks doing moderate lifting and speed work. The rationale was that you give your body a chance to heal up, you re-charge mentally, and you can replenish some of that weight that you tend to dump in the final stages of peaking (come in at a full weight class...assuming you are at/above the limit). 3-4 weeks isn't going to degrade your peak strength IF you are still lifting. I plan to work 3 weeks of moderate work, with the lowest weight (58%) for each of the motions for 2 of the days and 1 day will use the moderate weight (68%), I may work chains into the mix too. This is pretty experimental, for me anyway, but my friend has had his best meets to date when he finished his peaks like this. I am going to try it as everything he described I have encountered (pitfalls that is). Especially when I went into Nationals last year...I was strong enough to hit my intended total, but I was too tired and light to make it reality...in essence, I was only half ready. In a nutshell, there it is. I have it plotted out in a Quattro Pro file if anyone wants it. For some reason my 'save as' option won't work to save as Excel. Tells me the program has performed an illegal operation (??). Anyway, if anyone is interested that is how I have it...until I can figure out how to transfer it to Excel anyway. Hope this makes sense, feel free to query if anything is unclear. I really just wanted a real simple program (thanks for the kick Jason) to just lift for a while. This has worked FAR better than I ever imagined (puts my Hybrid to shame...might be an interesting comparison given my new squat form and conv. pulls though) and I have hit every goal/target with ease and confidence (quite different than my previous attempts with 3x3). Been eating a lot too as well as a regular inclusion of Creatine and Glutamine. Aside from that I only focus on perfect reps. The weight and volume is low enough that you shouldn't have any excuse for getting sloppy. I think that has really made a difference too...the habits are there and the groove is really cemented. The log of my training is at http://silverback54.homestead.com/home.html If you use the www it won't work...whatever! Also, one last thought to go with the 3x3 stuff too. The training weights aren't all that heavy in the scope, but you'll really notice a difference when you are doing Sq/Bp/Dl (or a close variation) each time. Especially when you start testing the heavier waters. Meet progression (squat/bench/dead) shouldn't be nearly as varying since you train each lift (regularly) in the order that you'll perform them in a meet. I think this is part of the BP blues that sometimes occur with 3x3. Benching after squatting is tough, toss in some DL's after doing both and you find new reserves. This won't kill you as the volume is lower, but I am finding it quite the confidence booster to be able to hit all my training weights goals in spite of performing all the lifts all the time. Good liftin' ______________________________ Wade Hanna Lansing, Mi. clanhanna@acd.net Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:40:45 -0500 From: "Wade Hanna" Subject: 3X3 Excel file. Hey all, I have gotten a number of requests and to make things easier (for me...) I put it on my website and you can download it from there. http://silverback54.homestead.com/home.html Follow the link to the "Construction Zone" and the file is posted on that page. Only about 50Kb so it isn't a huge download. Just too many e-mails for me to send without getting castrated by the wife for monopolizing the phone line. Wade Hanna Lansing, Mi. Saturday, August 04, 2001 8:52 PM To: Strength Subject: [Strength_List] 3x3 Questions Sorry if this has been brought up before. Should the percentages be adjusted for RAW maxes? How much rest between sets do most of you do? For those of you who lost fat during the 8 weeks, were you trying to lose weight or did it just happen? I'm in fat loss mode right now. I was thinking of eating a lot during the first four weeks and then try to lose some more during the second four weeks. I can't fathom how anyone could lose weight during the whole 8 weeks and still improve. I figure less calories would be needed during the second 4 weeks. Thanks for any feedback. Jeff Oien ssage: 11 Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:25:34 -0400 From: "Clauss, Mike" Subject: RE: 3x3 Questions 1. You do not have to adjust for RAW maxes, I've done cycles RAW and equipped and used the same percentages for both. It works equally well either way. 2. This probably isn't the best answer, but my rest between sets varies depending on how I'm feeling. I rest somewhere between 30 seconds and a minute in phase 1. In phase 2 I rest no more than 30 seconds between light sets and usually 2-4 minutes between heavy sets. 3. I did not intend to lose any weight but did get a bit leaner during my first 3x3 cycle. Since that happened I started eating more to keep my weight up. Mike Southfield, MI